"Cying It Out" causes brain damage

Erynne - posted on 01/12/2010 ( 66 moms have responded )

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Even Dr. Ferber, who created the cry-it-out/controlled crying technique now decries his methods. He has said if he knew then what he knows now about it, he'd never have recommended it. Too bad so many people are still duped by it.



http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/cons-of-c...

http://drmomma.blogspot.com/2009/12/exce...

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/pinky_...



Shouldn't babies soothe themselves to sleep through crying? When can they be relied on to soothe themselves?

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/should-ba...



When will they sleep through the night, if I DON'T let them cry to sleep?

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/sleeping-...



If you feel lost now, then you can educate yourself on proper parenting techniques: read "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" and "The Baby Sleep Book."



Please keep in mind, just because a technique has 'worked' for someone else doesn't mean there is no damage, o that you should blindly repeat it. If your gut tells you that letting a baby scream and cry alone in a room is in any way wrong, shouldn't you listen to it instead of people who keep insisting your baby is old enough to sleep without your help?



And if you have no qualms of conscience about your baby screaming alone, maybe it's time to reconnect with your infant. I think your parent-baby bond might need a little strengthening.



- E

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Polina - posted on 01/18/2010

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In the first half of the 20th century, the considered school of child rearing was strict meal and bed times (no snacks between meals; let 'em cry till the next feeding or till they go to sleep). Dr. Spock was reacting against this, but those generations were/are no more traumatized than any others.
There are people who believe that the "extinction method" is damaging to a baby's health and brain development, and there are contradicting studies that show that the eradication of sleep problems (which would result if you put the extinction method into place) helps the entire family, both children and parents, to be calmer and healthier and live a more peaceful life.
Who is right? The studies that show that there is no harm seem to be correct-- they are controlled studies done on a scientific basis.
The studies which are used on anti-extinction websites to contradict the practice all have a common problem.
In the studies that support the idea that babies who are allowed to "cry it out" will later have development problems, the researchers merely research how CRYING affects a child later in life-- in other words, they assume that a baby who "cries it out" will spend more of her infancy crying than a baby that is comforted when she cries. However, the point of using the CIO method is to stop your baby from crying in the future. Babies who are comforted when they cry will continue to cry any time they feel like it and want their parents to comfort them, so in the end they may cry more than babies under the CIO method, resulting in more developmental damage. One factor in these studies that are used for anti-extinction purposes is the definition of "maternal responsiveness." Some mothers are not responsive at all and would let their children cry all day without being attended to. When extreme results have been found in a study-- for example, that babies with mothers with low response rates later suffer ADHD or lower IQs-- this generally assumes that the babies' mothers had EXTREMELY low response rates to cause the baby to suffer an attachment disorder. (And in many cases, children who are completely abused or neglected never even develop an attachment disorder.)
There are many books and websites which claim that studies have been conducted on these levels, but they are wrong. They will cite studies that say that babies' stress levels cause them later damage, or the amount of crying cause them later damage-- but as the following studies establish, babies who are "ignored" will cry less than babies who are not.
There are studies which prove that the extinction method makes a baby happier, with more rest, and does not create an attachment disorder.
This is despite the many websites that proliferate on the attachment method and saying that the Ferber method has been proven wrong by studies. There is not one conclusive study that was put forth by any of these sites and most are simply based on either pseudoscience or on a false premise-- the idea that Ferberization results in more crying, when studies show that it results in less crying in the long run. Many of these sites promote the idea that extinction is bad for a baby's health because crying, trauma and stress prevent the baby's
brain from proper development. However, it is actually the attachment method which causes babies to cry the most and from which they would experience these symptoms of improper brain development. In most families, the extinction method can make the family's lives better.

Here are just a few of these studies:

"Are infant crying and maternal responsiveness during the first year
related to infant-mother attachment at 15 months?"
Authors: Van Ijzendoorn M. H.; Hubbard F. O. A.
Source: Attachment & Human Development, 1 December 2000, vol. 2, no.
3, pp. 371-391(21)
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ro...

"Contrary to our expectations, the more frequently mothers ignored
their infants' crying bouts in the first nine-week period, the less
frequently their infants cried in the following nine-week period, even
if intervening variables like earlier crying and synchronous
responsiveness were controlled for. 'Benign neglect' of fussing may
stimulate the emergent abilities in infants to cope with mild
distress."

----

"Matemal Unresponsiveness and Infant Crying Across the First 9 Months:
A Naturalistic Longitudinal Study"
FOA HUBBARD, MH VAN UZENDOORN - INFANT BEHAVIOR AND DEVELOPMENT, 1991
- openaccess.leidenuniv.nl
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/retrieve/2115/168_105.pdf

"More frequent delay of maternal responses reduces the number of
crying bouts during the first half year of life."

----

This study's results clash with those of the above studies.

"Infant Crying and Maternal Responsiveness"
Silvia M. Bell, Mary D. Salter Ainsworth
Child Development, Vol. 43, No. 4 (Dec., 1972), pp. 1171-1190
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-39...(197212)43%3A4%3C1171%3AICAMR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

"Nevertheless, maternal effectiveness in terminating crying was found
to be less powerful than promptness of response in reducing crying in
subsequent months."

------------

A critique of the above Bell/Ainsworth study was published, finding
their conclusions to be unsupported by their data.

"Does Maternal Responding Imply Reduced Infant Crying? A Critique of
the 1972 Bell and Ainsworth Report"
Jacob L. Gewirtz, Elizabeth F. Boyd
Child Development, Vol. 48, No. 4 (Dec., 1977), pp. 1200-1207
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-39...(197712)48%3A4%3C1200%3ADMRIRI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-P

"It was concluded that Bell and Ainsworth's main conclusion, that
maternal responding implied a reduction in infant crying, was not
supported by their data."

------------

There is a book by Margot Sutherland called "The Science of Parenting"
in which she claims that leaving a baby to cry will cause harm in
their brain's development process. She also claims that all children
should sleep with their parents until the age of five. What she does
not account for, however, is the concept that co-sleeping and other
such activities (such as comforting the baby multiple times in the
night) can cause damage in the child's parents' marriage, which could
eventually contribute to divorce or marital difficulty. There are many
studies on how divorce affects children in a negative way and most
people are very familiar with that idea. So in a way, this seems to be
a no-win situation. While I couldn't get a copy of Sutherland's book,
from the online reviews of it, while she claims to base her ideas
wholly on science, she doesn't always do so. For instance, she cites
a study which indicates that traumas in a young life can cause babies
to develop smaller brains than those who do not have trauma as a
reason to comfort your baby when they cry at night. But is a baby that
suffers trauma for a few weeks by "crying it out" any less traumatized
than a baby that suffers for months or longer when he/she tries to go
to sleep by him/herself and can't because Mom is not right there? Is
the five-year-old duly traumatized when he has never slept alone and
is suddenly expected to? Her claims do not seem to me to be backed by
solid scientific evidence.

When the researchers authored these studies citing trauma in a baby's
life as causing smaller brain development, they studied babies who had
been continuously traumatized by abuse and neglect, not babies who had
simply spent a few nights in the crib alone.

I don't find any scientists or supporters of these specific theories
other than Margot Sutherland herself. There are many scientists and
researchers who approve the attachment theory over the Ferber method
(and I have linked to some of their websites in the "Sources" section)
but none of them could present a study that contradicted the findings
that other studies found, that extinction does not cause harm but in
fact is good for the baby's well-being. Many of them cite studies on
the two factors I mentioned above: amount of crying and level of
maternal responsiveness, which do not truly deal with the issue at
hand.

---------

This study concludes that the extinction method works better than
non-extinction for the baby.

"Behavior Characteristics and Security in Sleep-Disturbed Infants
Treated with Extinction"
Karyn G. France
University of Canterbury
Journal of Pediatric Psychology 17(4) pp. 467-475, 1992
http://jpepsy.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con...

"Measured and compared the behavior characteristics and security
scores of 35 infants (6?24 months) treated with extinction for sleep
disturbance with those of 13 untreated and 15 normal sleep controls.
There was no evidence of detrimental effects on the treated infants
whose security, emotionality/tension, and likeability scores improved.
The findings are congruent with those from a previous study with
preschoolers and have important implications for the prevention of
later behavior problems in sleep-disturbed children."

---------

This study finds that higher cortisol (a hormone which is released
when a baby is stressed) level results when infants have low
attachment levels with their parents. I link to it because it is often
cited by anti-extinction proponents as proving that extinction causes
higher levels of cortisol. But this study does not prove in any way
that extinction itself causes low levels of attachment, so the study
is misrepresented on most of those sites.

"Stress reactivity and attachment security"
Megan R. Gunnar 1 *, Laurie Brodersen 1, Melissa Nachmias 1, Kristin
Buss 2, Joseph Rigatuso 3
1Institute of Child Development, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota
2Department of Psychology, University of Wisconsin, Madison, Madison, Wisconsin
3Department of Pediatrics, University of Minnesota Medical School and
Health Partners, Inc., Minneapolis, Minnesota
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-b...

"... Salivary cortisol, behavioral distress, and maternal
responsiveness measures obtained during these clinic visits were
examined in relation to attachment classifications... In the 2nd year,
the combination of high fearfulness and insecure versus secure
attachment was associated with higher cortisol responses to both the
clinic exam-inoculation situation and the Strange Situation. Thus,
attachment security moderates the physiological consequences of
fearful, inhibited temperament. Regarding the 2-, 4-, and 6-month
data, later attachment security was related to greater maternal
responsiveness and lower cortisol baselines. Neither cortisol nor
behavioral reactivity to the inoculations predicted later attachment
classifications. There was some suggestion, however, that at their
2-month checkup, infants who would later be classified as insecurely
attached exhibited larger dissociations between the magnitude of their
behavioral and hormonal response to the inoculations, Greater
differences between internal (hormonal) and external (crying)
responses were also negatively correlated with maternal responsiveness
and positively correlated with pretest cortisol levels during these
early months of life."

---------

This study found no relation between levels of attachment and levels
of stress and levels of cortisol.

"Attachment, Temperament, and Adrenocortical Activity in Infancy. A
Study of Psychoendocrine Regulation."
Authors: Gunnar, Megan R.; And Others
Descriptors: Age Differences; Attachment Behavior; Infants;
Personality; Psychophysiology
Journal/Source Name: Developmental Psychology
Journal Citation: v25 n3 p355-63 May 1989
http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.po...

"Examined relations among adrenocortical stress reactivity, infant
emotional or proneness-to-distress temperament, and quality of
attachment in 66 infants tested at 9 and 13 months. Adrenocortical
activity was not associated with attachment classifications.
Significant only at 9 months, elevations in cortisol were small."

---------

This study found that babies (and parents) were happier and healthier
after an ignoring treatment, and the babies cried much less than their
rocked-to-sleep counterparts.

"Treatment of Young Children's Bedtime Refusal and Nighttime Wakings:
A Comparison of ?Standard? and Graduated Ignoring Procedures"
Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g108...

"Following treatment, only positive side effects were observed. When
compared to the wait-list group, mothers in the standard ignoring
group reported less verbose discipline and decreased stress in
parenting, while mothers in the graduated ignoring group reported
improved parent?child relationships. Treatment gains were maintained
over a 2-month follow-up period."

---------

Here is a good study that may shed more light on your topic. It
doesn't go into complete detail in the abstract, so you'll have to
read through the full text to comprehend the results. The study found
that ignoring had better results after one week but both methods had
the same results after two weeks (conflicting with the above study).

"Reducing Nocturnal Awakening and Crying Episodes in Infants and Young
Children: A Comparison Between Scheduled Awakenings and Systematic
Ignoring"
PEDIATRICS Vol. 81 No. 2 February 1988, pp. 203-212
Vaughn I. Rickert PsyD and C. Merle Johnson PhD1
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cg...

Full Text:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cg...

---------

"Empirically supported treatments in pediatric psychology: bedtime
refusal and night wakings..."
J Mindell - Journal of Pediatric Psychology, 1999 - us.oup.com
http://www.us.oup.com/us/pdf/spirito/Min...

---------

Harvard University Gazette
"Children Need Touching and Attention, Harvard Researchers Say"
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998...

'"Parents should recognize that having their babies cry unnecessarily
harms the baby permanently," Commons said. "It changes the nervous
system so they're overly sensitive to future trauma."'

Here is the "study," which is not really a research study but a
comparison of two cultures. As far as I can see, no proof is given
that American children are worse off than the Kenyan children they're
compared to. These Harvard researchers may have a point, but they do
not prove it and they never conducted a comprehensive study to prove
it (I don't know why not) and so their results can only be taken as
advice, not science. I really see no backing for their conclusions.
Here is their paper so you can judge for yourself.

"Emotional Learning in Infants: A Cross-Cultural Examination"
http://www.tiac.net/~commons/AAAS%20Inte...

---------

This study finds that levels of cortisol are raised in stressful
situations, such as a parent leaving.

"Urinary cortisol excretion rates and anxiety in normal 1-year-old infants"
K Tennes, K Downey and A Vernadakis
Psychosomatic Medicine, Vol 39, Issue 3 178-187, Copyright © 1977 by
American Psychosomatic Society
http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi...

---------

This study found that crying actually created an amnesiac effect, in
which babies over the long-term forgot what they were crying about in
the first place.

"The Effect of Crying on Long-Term Memory in Infancy"
Jeffrey W. Fagen, Phyllis S. Ohr, Lori K. Fleckenstein, Dena R. Ribner
Child Development, Vol. 56, No. 6 (Dec., 1985), pp. 1584-1592
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-39...(198512)56%3A6%3C1584%3ATEOCOL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F

"The influence of crying on infants' long-term memory for a learned
response was investigated in 3 experiments. In each, infants were
trained to move a crib mobile containing 10 identical objects by means
of kicking and were then exposed to a reinforcer containing only 2 of
these components. This shift in component numerosity produced crying
in 53% of the infants. Infants who cried in response to the reward
shift evidenced no retention of the contingency 1 week later
(Experiment 1) but did have excellent retention at 1 day (Experiment
2). In Experiment 3, a brief reactivation treatment alleviated
forgetting at 3 weeks regardless of the presence of crying in response
to the change in mobiles. An unexpected recency effect characterized
the efficacy of the reactivation treatment. The results indicate that
crying in response to the violation of a reward-expectation habit
functions as an amnesic agent to produce accelerated forgetting."

---------

According to this study, the well-being of families (both parents and
children) improves after using the extinction method.

"Treatment of sleep problems in families with young children: effects
of treatment on family well-being."
* Eckerberg B.
Department of Paediatrics, Falun Hospital, Falun, Sweden.
eckerberg@ebox.tninet.se
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...

"CONCLUSION: If parents experience young children's night awakenings
as a problem, teaching the children to fall asleep by themselves
usually solves this problem quickly. According to parental ratings,
family well-being and negative daytime behaviour are also improved."


------

This article recommends early intervention in sleep problems and that
children whose sleep problems are not dealt with will most likely
continue to have sleep problems in ongoing years.

Journal of Pediatrics
1987 Apr;110(4):642-6.
* Kataria S,
* Swanson MS,
* Trevathan GE.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...

----

Allen Schore's research focuses on cortisol levels and how they raise
in the event of trauma, such as crying. He says that the caregiver
coming in to soothe crying reduces the levels of cortisol. (A
counter-argument to this would be that if overall crying is reduced by
"crying it out" as some studies show, cortisol levels would be low in
the first place and there would be no need for the caregiver to soothe
in order to lower them.)

Psychiatric Times
"Brain Development, Attachment and Impact on Psychic Vulnerability"
http://psychiatrictimes.com/p980547.html

"By regulating affect, the caregiver is also regulating the release of
neurohormones in the infant's brain. High levels of cortisol, a stress
hormone that may well be released in the brain during states of
distress, has been shown in some animal studies to destroy synapses.

In the inevitable event of distress states in the infant, the
caregiver's moving in to repair the connection and comfort the infant
reduces the levels of cortisol and related stress hormones. As a
result, the frontal cortex develops a greater concentration of
glucocorticoid receptors that can modulate stress responses (Schore,
1996).

When there is no interactive repair; when the caregiver is abusive,
neglectful or continually misattuned, infants may remain in
chronically negative states, their corticosteroid levels chronically
elevated. This results in a reduction in the number of synapses, even
the death of neurons, according to Schore's hypothesis."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-b...
"The effects of early relational trauma on right brain development,
affect regulation, and infant mental health"
Allan N. Schore *
Department of Psychiatry and Biobehavioral Sciences, University of
California at Los Angeles School of Medicine
email: Allan N. Schore (anschore@aol.com)

"In the following, I offer thoughts on the negative impact of
traumatic attachments on brain development and infant mental health,
the neurobiology of infant trauma, the neuropsychology of a
disorganized/disoriented attachment pattern associated with abuse and
neglect, trauma-induced impairments of a regulatory system in the
orbitofrontal cortex, the links between orbitofrontal dysfunction and
a predisposition to posttraumatic stress disorders, the neurobiology
of the dissociative defense, the etiology of dissociation and
body-mind psychopathology, the effects of early relational trauma on
enduring right hemispheric function, and some implications for models
of early intervention."

Dr. Schore mentions that abuse and neglect harm a child, but he does
not mention a normal "crying it out" method in his abstract.

Here is another source on Schore, that again mentions abuse and
neglect (not normal parenting) as a direct catalyst in infant
development:

Our Baby Forum
http://www.ourbabyhomepage.com/forum/vie...

"Dr. Allan Schore of the UCLA School of Medicine has demonstrated that
the stress hormone cortisol (which floods the brain during intense
crying and other stressful events) actually destroys nerve connections
in critical portions of an infant's developing brain. In addition,
when the portions of the brain responsible for attachment and
emotional control are not stimulated during infancy (as may occur when
a baby is repeatedly neglected) these sections of the brain will not
develop. The result is a violent, impulsive, emotionally unattached
child. He concludes that the sensitivity and responsiveness of a
parent stimulates and shapes the nerve connections in key sections of
the brain responsible for attachment and emotional well-being."

----

Another link from the Our Baby Forum is this study by Michael Lewis.

"Infant, Mother, and Mother-Infant Interaction Behavior and Subsequent Attachment"
Michael Lewis, Candice Feiring
Child Development, Vol. 60, No. 4 (Aug., 1989), pp. 831-837
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-39...(198908)60%3A4%3C831%3AIMAMIB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-A

Here is the description from the forum:

"Infant developmental specialist Dr. Michael Lewis presented research
findings at an American Academy of Pediatrics meeting, concluding that
the single most important influence of a child's intellectual
development is the responsiveness of the mother to the cues of her
baby."

I don't see anything involving that in the abstract, but you may want
to get this study and read it yourself.


----
----
"Modifications of Systematic Ignoring in the Management of Infant
Sleep Disturbance: Efficacy and Infant Distress"
Karyn G France, Neville M Blampied. Child & Family Behavior Therapy.
New York: 2005.Vol.27, Iss. 1; pg. 1
http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?did=86545...

"Systematic ignoring and two modifications of it (systematic ignoring
with minimal parental check and systematic ignoring with parental
presence) were evaluated for treatment of Infant Sleep Disturbance
(ISD). Fifteen infants (6-15 months of age) participated in a study
utilising a multiple-baseline design across the three treatment
programs. Frequency of awakening and duration of crying were measured
in order to evaluate treatment efficacy and infant distress. All
programs led to decreases in night waking but infants treated with
systematic ignoring with minimal check woke and cried more over the
treatment period. Given our present knowledge, the parental presence
program appears to be the treatment of choice. This result needs
further investigation, as do those of other programs commonly used to
treat Infant Sleep Disturbance (ISD) in infants. [PUBLICATION
ABSTRACT]"

----

Natural Child Project
"Emotional Learning in Infants: A Cross-Cultural Examination"
http://www.naturalchild.com/research/emo...

Almost all of the papers cited in this bibliography are not available
on either Google Scholar or other journal search engines, so most of
them can't be accessed to see what they say and if the claims are
true.

----

From:
National Child Traumatic Stress Network reading list
http://www.nctsnet.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs...

DeBellis M, Baum AS, Birmaher B, Keshavan M, Eccard CH, Boring, AM,
Jenkins FJ, Ryan N.
(1999) Developmental Traumatology Part I and II: Biological Stress Systems.
Society of
Biological Psychiatry
45:1259-1270 (Part I) 1271-1284 (Part II)

----

BOOKS

"The Science of Parenting"
by Margot Sutherland
http://www.amazon.com/Science-Parenting-...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Parentin...

"Becoming Attached: First Relationships and How They Shape Our
Capacity to Love (Paperback)"
by Robert Karen
http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Attached-...

------

This BabyCenter article mentions taking an approach that involves
coming in to comfort the baby, but not co-sleeping and not comforting
them for extended times, but simply every once in a while so that they
know you're there for them.

BabyCenter
"Ask the Experts:
Are we damaging our baby by letting him cry himself to sleep?"
http://www.babycenter.com/expert/2644.ht...

Sources:
The Times
"Children 'should sleep with parents until they're five'"
Sian Griffiths
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2179265,00.html

The Observer
"Science shows up Supernanny"
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/s...,6903,1345420,00.html

Controlled Crying Position Paper
http://www.earlychildhoodaustralia.org.a...

"Mothering Matters: Throw Away Your Cry-It-Out Manuals"
http://www.elizabethbauchner.info/column...

Mothering Forum
"The Crying Child~ Resources about CIO"
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/sho...

Partners in Parenting blog
http://partners-in-parenting.typepad.com...

"Crying
Anything but "Good for Their Lungs""
http://www.evalillian.com/Crying.aspx

"Stress in Infancy"
by Linda Folden Palmer, D.C.
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/linda_...

University of Michigan Pediatrics
"The Ferber Method Helps Some Children Sleep Longer"
http://www.med.umich.edu/pediatrics/ebm/...

"Behavioural and cognitive-behavioural interventions for sleep
disorders in infants and children"
JL Owens, KG France, L Wiggs - Sleep Med Rev, 1999 - tau.ac.il
http://www.tau.ac.il/~sadeh/baby/owens.p...

Merry - posted on 01/16/2010

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hi i think ill regret getting in the middle of you two (erynne and april) but i have a different story on these two controversial ises. my son was circunsised because my cousin required a catheter when he was very young and in placing it the drs pulled back his foreskin prematurely and it was greatly scarred and hardened and took years to loosen and he almost was circ at the age of 5 because it wasnt loosening up. also a coworker had a brother who had endured 8 uti in 2 years and even though his mom was cleaning him properly and hadnt pulled back the skin (he was 3-4) he continued to get the infections. he had to be circ when he was 4 and he was in so much pain and he had such a bad ordeal with drs that it instilled a distrust in all drs. also my exroomate worked in a nursing home and a man had been brought in and he had been unable to care for himself and he wasnt circ and she discovered such a bad infection under his foreskin that he needed alot of antibiotics and ended up losing feeling in his penis. after these reasons we decided to circ. and im glad we did because our dr saw prenataly that erics kidneys werent equaly functioning and he had to have a renal kidney scan that required a catheter when he was 3 months old. idk if you can place a cath with an intact baby and not cause damage but im glad there wasnt a chance of damage for eric.
and as for the circ itself it was less traumatic then his pku heel stick and jaundice test. i know because I WAS THERE i comforted him and he only cried with the numbing injection and he wasnt traumatized after because i had him by my side nursing for the whole hospital stay if he was traumatized by anything it would be the birth itself that must HURT!
I dont let him cryitout either and i nurse on demand and i carry him everywhere in a sling or on a hip and i examined every vaccine before i agreed to give it to him.

lets try not to fight here but instead give honest examples backing up personal decisions. remember we all love our babies and want to do the best for them

Ali Marie - posted on 01/22/2010

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I agree with a lot of women that each child is different, we as mothers are different, and SITUATIONS are different. Its very ignorant to make a sweeping generalization that if you let your child cry for more than 5 min at a time you are giving it brain damage.



I truely believe in mother's instinct, and that we ALL have it. I think that it doesn't matter how much you read or listen to "experts" (whether that be Drs or other mothers) its your instict that helps you the most as a mother.



I don't see much harm in researching or informing yourself as to what experienced mothers, doctors, nurses, etc have to say but IMO the person you should listen to the most is your baby and yourself. And if what you and your baby have to say is different or against what your friends or "experts" have to say--so be it! Be true to yourself and believe in what you think is right.

Jillian - posted on 01/18/2010

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now im not saying what i do is the right way for everyone, but we really tried attachment parenting, to the point where my daughter would not sleep at all in her crib after doing so with no problem for the first 8 1/2 months of her life, she only wanted to sleep in my arms while i stayed awake all night. i would nurse her to sleep and as soon as she felt her back touch the mattress of her crib she would spring awake and start screaming so we would start all over again and this would happen over and over until i would give up completely exhausted and put her in bed with us at 3 or 4 in the morning. i have no problem with her sleeping with us and neither does my husband except that none of us are well rested after a night of tossing and turning, and constant worry about rolling over on her. it got to the point that my daughter was refusing to eat anymore, and wasn't gaining enough weight and her behavior was also changed, most notably was that she had always been such a smiley baby whenever we went to the store or anywhere she would just smile and laugh at anyone who looked at her, she began to get more and more anxious if she wasn't in constant contact with me and she wouldn't smile or laugh at anyone anymore. i was also so exhausted i was afraid i would fall asleep with her in my arms and drop her or that i would get frustrated and angry with her so something had to change.
i didn't feel comfortable just leaving her all alone in a dark room to cry by herself so i put her in her crib and sat next to it where she could see me and know i was not leaving her, and read her a bedtime story while she cried at me. i would pat her back and say comforting words to her but i wanted her to understand that i just couldn't stay awake and hold her all night so she would sleep. i stayed with her until she fell asleep and she actually slept through the night, each night she cries less and less and sleeps just a little bit longer. now after a few weeks, she only fusses a little when i first put her in her crib, then she listens to her bedtime story and falls asleep after. now she is eating better, and she is actually smiling and laughing at people in the store, i feel so much better and so much more patient with her, i am not afraid of getting angry or frustrated with her anymore, and she loves to cuddle with me, but she doesn't feel like she needs to be in constant contact with me all the time. she is playing with toys again and just being herself again. i dont agree with just letting them cry it out all by themselves, but she needed some boundries, now is doing so much better, and i feel much better as a parent as well.
every baby is different as is every situation, no amount of research is ever going to be conclusive just because of this fact. i really want to do what is best for my child, but in her case, attachment parenting was not it, it was actually causing her more harm than good. she stopped gaining weight, and though i can't really be sure, i think her development was starting to slow as well because she was so exhausted she didn't have the energy to try new things. now she has hit several new milestones since she has been sleeping well when she didn't do anything new before.

Helena - posted on 01/18/2010

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First of all I am not insecure about anything. I know what i did was right. You have no right to tell me I am insecure or to tell me that I didn't know any better. Let me tell you something I have had 4 kids and they are all circ'd and it is not up to you to tell a mom weather what she is doing and how she is raiseing her kids is right or wrong.

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Mila - posted on 06/18/2014

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Doesn't your basic instinct as a mother tell you letting your baby cry like that is wrong. I don't know how any mother could ever let their baby cry for an hour and let them hyperventilate. WTF is wrong with people. I have to get off this site, too many horrible people. Poor babies!

Mila - posted on 06/18/2014

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They do not usually give any numbing shot. They give sugar water or a paci. My sister is a nurse and personally experienced having to watch these circumcision without any pain or numbing. Babies that just go to sleep are not sleeping they are passing out from pain and shock. Imagine if someone cut off a part of your genitals without any pain medication or numbing. Besides, circumcision is only a plastic surgery procedure that causes a lot of pain and potentially death. If mothers think it's "Their Right" to cut off a portion of their babies genitals, they have a lot of learning to do. Poor babies of these uneducated mothers!

Mila - posted on 06/18/2014

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If that's what you have to say to make yourself feel better, then go ahead. Circumcision is a human rights issue, not a mothers choice. So do you think female circumcision is ok? You clearly haven't done research on both sides of the spectrum.

Louise - posted on 03/24/2010

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I think people learn from mistakes. My first son now 4 and a half was never put into cot until asleep which resulted in me spending 3 hours every night in his room till he was 3 and then when he woke (yes when not if) another two hours rocking him and if he was even slightly not in a deep sleep would wake when I put him in cot. I did this every night as my husband, then boyf, works nights along with working a fulltime job myself, organising our wedding and buying/building a house. I was lucky to have 2 hours a night. Something had to give and unfortunately that was me! So 2nd time round I put him into cot awake and no hassles. Sometimes whinges but nothing major. And never left for more than 5 mins. He hates being rocked. He will try to throw himself out of your arms into cot if he wants to sleep.

On another not. 2 boys one circumcised! And I did it for medical reasons as the gap at the end was too small and the urine was staying inside causing infection. Had him at specialist and he reckoned it wouldn't fix itself. He was 10 months. He cried in hosp but not once did I even think he was in pain after we got home. His teeth bothered him more.

My motto is listen to all advice offered and then choose which bits you will use!

Nicole - posted on 01/31/2010

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I personally find all the information interesting. I've worked in a daycare for 2 plus years and have a 9 mo old son. I know that every child is different and every child must be taken care of in different ways. I've gone from rocking a child for almost an hour to sleep from just putting them down for them to fall asleep on their own. Some kids don't cry much and some cry all the time. We had a colic 3 mo old and the only way to stop her crying was to lay her down and walk away. Holding her upset her more. Granted to cried laying down for about 10 mins but then she was fine. When I think of CIO I think letting a child cry for hours. I let my son CIO for only 10 mins and if he isn't asleep or feeling better then I try to solve the problem a different way. I also got him circumsized. I'm a single mother of 22 doing it alone. I don't think I'm a bad mother for makeing the choices I've made and I don't think half the people on here are bad mothers. I think if your child is happy, learning, loved, cared for, and growing then I don't think it really matter how each of our own got there. Back in the day they did even crazier things and I'm sure when our kids have kids the things we do now will be obsured. We all must be doing something right to get this far right?

Karen - posted on 01/31/2010

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ok ok just a silly :) ... I can not speak for my almost non-verbal daughter but I know I AM NOT brain damaged and she has made me cry many a night out of frustration and lack of sleep LOL and still I love her lil tush just the same.

Tara - posted on 01/30/2010

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I dont follow the CIO way of life, my daughter does sometimes 'moan' to sleep but she is not crying more shouting.

But to believe that this information is true, about brain damage, I would like to see actual medical journals on this, not blogs, not someones website about their views or what they have seen on the web, actual evidence from a medical page.



x

Debbie - posted on 01/28/2010

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I totally agree with laura beth. I dont beleive you can spoil a baby. i always sooth my little boy when he cries. hes teething at the moment, 2 at a time, and hes not sleeping well at all. i wouldnt dream of letting him cry through that.

Heather - posted on 01/23/2010

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So true! my eldest (now 3yrs) woke every 2 hours on the dot through the night and id feed her and put her down - and I was a complete wreck!she got to 9 months and I started controlled crying just to get some sleep...and it broke my heart to do it but was in desperate need to try something. It took a week of going in every 5 min to check on her and shes slept through ever since. Loved being told I would have been giving her brain damage, that was excellent :) we have a really tight relationship and she knows I am her base as shes now starting to explore out on her own. Her younger sister (now 9months) is completely different and I can't do it with because she just goes nuts and it just not right-am going to have to try something else, or wait :D every baby and every situation is different and it seems a lil naive to post such judgmental posts that the excellent research given is going to be right for every person. Even in psychology it is always developing and changing-theories change, not everything fits. It is hard enough being a good mum without being told in no uncertain terms that what you're doing is wrong. Quite honestly - talk about being narrow minded.

Anita - posted on 01/22/2010

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I agree with Stephanie and Ali. Every baby and situation is different. Mom's have their own instinct of what to do and how their own baby is.What's right for one baby may not be right for another and vice verse..

Rhonda - posted on 01/22/2010

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I agree with you Stephanie. I would never put anyone down for anything they do with parenting. (within reason) Every child is different and when I post I can't let my baby cry I mean that I can't let him cry like my husband thinks I should. I was just trying out what he was wanting to try, one night when our boy wouldn't go to sleep. He let him cry for about an hour. My little man was so upset he had a hard time breathing. That is when I think it could cause brain damage. Well now if he isn't asleep within a couple minutes or cries to hard then I go get him.
I thank everyone on the circle of moms site, because even though I am not a new mother I still have questions. This site has the opportunity to help every mother on here to be the best mother she can be. That is why I signed up. I hope to see everyone helping each other. Not putting each other down. We as mothers need to stick together. It doesn't get any easier while they grow up. I could have used this site when my daughter was little, and still today. My daughter will be 18 in april and I had some hard times raising her, especially being a single mom at the time.

Diane - posted on 01/22/2010

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I think the age of the child has a lot to do with it & of course the type of cry. I have let my son (9 months) cry it out when resisting bedtime (when he is clearly very sleepy), but he cries less than 5 minutes each time. It's definitely something you have to decide for yourself based on your child's personality, age, situation, etc.

Anita - posted on 01/21/2010

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I just had a conversation about my daughter (9mos) waking up at 3am now for a bottle. She had been sleeping all night since 2mos until she started getting her teeth in. Her doc told me it was time for tough love. I will lay in bed now and if she isn't back to sleep in 5 min or less I'll get up with her. but usually she goes right back to sleep.

Stephanie - posted on 01/21/2010

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Wow. . .am I a bad mother or what? I always hate postings like this one because I don't think any part of parenting is cut or dry. Am I evil because I couldn't physically breastfeed (I went to multiple lactation consultants and doctors to no avail)? A lot of my fellow mothers would say so. Am I evil because occasionally when my daughter is really tired I put her to bed and she fusses her self to sleep in 5-10 minutes? A lot of the people posting on this would say so. However, I gave up a very good job to raise my children and my husband and I are living a lot more lean than we did when we were first married because my staying home with our children was a priority. And I give my child lots of love, take her to the doctors at the appropriate times, feed her when she is hungry, comfort her when she is crabby, and generally do my best to give her all she needs and desires. I wish the posters who think they are better than the rest of us, would start their own holier than thou website, so the rest of us who are normal people doing the best we can might avoid the criticism. I believe any parenting method taken to extremes is bad. When we cease using our brains and our instincts is when things go wrong with our lives and our children. CIO is not perfect, but neither is attachment parenting. There are things that go on that we have no control over and circumstances that are beyond our control, for instance the mother with twins who posted earlier. Lets all support each other rather than being a forum for judgement.

Charlotte - posted on 01/20/2010

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As far a circumcision being torture I think some people need to find out the new way they do it they only cry when they get given the local anisthetic and I know alot of adults who still cry from needles. My boys never once cried in pain after they were done. And I washed them as normal every day.



I am not saying to do not not to do is the right or wrong thing to do. Just please mothers there is ways you can share infomation you have found with out telling people that if they have done somethings then they are crule people.



No matter what the subject is there will always be research done to say it's either right or wrong. Have you researched the pro's of doing these methods? If not why you should really research both sides not just the one you were interested in.

Charlotte - posted on 01/20/2010

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We have had my twin boys circumcised for the same reasons as this has happened in every generaation on my husbands side and he wants to prevent them going through what him and his father and uncled wnt through

Charlotte - posted on 01/20/2010

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I do have to say I get affended when people tell me that I am not a real mother or doing my job properly because I have used CIO a little. I have twin boys. My husband works away for 4 days every week. So tell me mothers how would you sooth 2 new born babies at the same time? I did let my boys cry but never for longer than 5mins and I would switch between them.



And alot of the times the childeren who have developed brain damage are ones who's parents abused the CIO and never tried to settle them at all. Its with everything there are parents who abuse things and then when something bad happens it reflexs badly on all other parents who may have used sililar technics.



I am in no way saying that one way is better than the other all I am trying to say is that don't tell others that they are not real parents for doing things a way you wouldn't. Because sometimes mothers like me have had to let one of their babies cry as there are 2 of them and 1 of me and I think I am doing a fantastic job. I have 2 very happy healthy and well developed baby boys.

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What I think is so comical, personally, is that Erynne is recommending that everyone not ignore their childrens cries. However, in order to have the time to argue her opinion as much as she has, wouldn't she need to ignore her own children? Does anyone else see the irony in this???

I gaurantee that each side of every argument regarding parenting has had some kind of study to support that point of view!

Helena - posted on 01/19/2010

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Thank you. I just think that having an oppinion is one thing telling people that they are insecure and they didn't know any better at the time is another. An I won't hold her against the rest of you. You are sweet to say that.

Jane - posted on 01/19/2010

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Helena we are not all like that please don't be turned off by 1 person, sometimes we have to have thick skin on here to hear others opinions. Things can get a little heated especially when 1 person thinks she has ALL the answers.

Helena - posted on 01/19/2010

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Marnie you know it is funny cause I just joined and I don't feel welcome after her telling me I am insecure cause of how I feel.

Rhonda - posted on 01/19/2010

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My husband keeps insisting to let my son cry himself to sleep. I just can't do it. I do try leaving him in his crib a little bit thinking he may cry himself to sleep, but I just can't let him scream and scream. My husband says I am making him into a sissy when I go get him. I don't care, I would rather him be a sissy than to think mommy don't love him.

Marnie - posted on 01/19/2010

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I was just wondering Erynne where exactly did you see that Dr Ferber has said "if he knew then what he knows know he wouldn't recommend his method". I really am not in any way provocing an argument however was interested in where you got this information. I have read and researched his method and haven't seen where he now disagrees with it??? I think some people take his method a bit out of context and I think he has made some clarifications and additions and maybe has become a bit more relaxed about his approach of "progressive waiting" but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe he has said he was wrong...

I also as someone else has posted was against letting my daughter cry...not because I think the mothers who do are wrong but because it broke my heart to hear her. I also was getting to the point where it was taking between an hour and two to get my daughter to sleep, then when she would finally fall asleep within an hour she would wake up and the process would start over. Well after 8 months of no sleep and working full time again I needed to try something. We let her cry for 5 minutes...okay in the beginning it was more like 2-3 minutes, then we went in comforted her and left. After that she would cry for maybe 5 minutes and be asleep. I have never had to go in and calm her more then twice and have never left her for longer then 5 minutes. I now put her down in her cot for both naps and bedtime and she never cries.

I think in the long run there would have been many more negative results had I not started her on this method. She was having a terrible time settling even whith me rocking her or cuddling her. She cried much more before and is still thrilled when I walk into the room.

I understand that you have posted this thread to help and inform which is greatly appreciated. It is always nice to see people researching and trying to find info and approaches that better our children and then sharing there information and knowledge with others...however...I think somewhere in this thread you have gotten side tracked. Every parent is entitled to there own opinions and some of the comments being made on her are anything but nice. Here are 2 comments you have made to other mothers that stick out...

"but the articles are informative and full of more wisdom than you can ever hope to have with your current narrow-minded approach to parenting):"

"I DO NOT like women who set their legs like a damn stubborn mule and say"

Now these kind of comments are the ones that make new mothers to this site wish they hadn't joined. A debate is a great thing but when it turns malicious it's no longer a debate. I really think your original post was a good hence why I started to read it however it has quickly gone from being helpful to me not even wanting to read it anymore. April 2009 has always been such a friendly and helpfull community, I never see conversations locked or read rude comments like in some of the other communities...it really is a shame I went onto this thread and I hope it doesn't make any of the new mothers not feel welcome.

Anyways all the best and again I have not written this to in any way cause another argument...it's just my opinion:)

Erynne - posted on 01/18/2010

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Helena: Again, I am going to say it: every mother has the right to do what she wants with her children. But if research comes out that says it's wrong, why attack the person who posted the information? That's a little like shooting the messenger.

Polina: I'm agnostic. I just happen to be well-read and believe in researching religion rather than blindly following what I was raised on. So, I don't have a god. I just know all the Biblical evidence that is anti-circ. And I know all the medical evidence that is anti-circ. Truly, the only reason to circumsize is laziness.

It's nice that you TRY to save people time... but here's the thing: 99% of people don't do research. They take to heart what their pediatrician/mother/doctor tells them to do. So don't worry about saving people time; if they want to read something, even if they disagree, they should do so.

- E

Polina - posted on 01/18/2010

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Erynne, you do have the attitude "I know it all". You're Christian. I don't believe in YOUR God. I am not going to try to change your religious views or explain to you why people of other religions find your religion wrong. You do what you feel is right. I do what I feel is right. Refer back to what I said. I only tried to save time for people who share my believes because I actually went and read the articles suggested by the topic and I know that I wasted my time because I had been through dozens of similar web sites about hot topics like vaccination, circumcision, etc. That was my intent to SAVE people some time. I actually would have appreciated such a comment so I did not have to waste my time. Please, no need to respond. I don't like to argue when it's pointless, and in this case it's pointless. I assume that every single person here is very knowledgeable, a good mother, has read a lot, and made her own decision, and these topics should not be out for arguing.

Amy - posted on 01/18/2010

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i'm glad to see some info on circumcision up here too. i'm glad people are doing their research as to why and if they want to circ their sons. When we found out we were having a boy, we weren't sure what to do. i considered it my son's body and not to be messed with as God created him perfectly, but my hubby was circ-ed. in research all he had to do was see one baby get it done and then he looked up verses in the Bible that made it okay NOT to get done. so we have an uncirced boy and get drilled about the evils we've done to him by family. there are cases where it's best to be done due to medical reasons, but what we discovered for us was that it wasn't worth it and should be our son's choice. heck, he can get it done any time he wants to.



for the crying it out. i think some people - myself included - aren't quite sure what the term all implies, so i looked it up. it means letting them cry -for extended periods of time-until they fall asleep on their own - usually not done until around 8 months of age. so, crying in the tub because of water, crying because they are temper tantrum not getting hteir way or crying because we've set them down so we can pull something out of the oven --NOT examples of crying it out. and there are TONS of things to do for colicky baby first before just letting them scream - which may put more air in tummy and make them even worse after a bit. please research all that. please please. i won't ever take what another mommy says as solid fact. i *think* the point of this was to help educate us on some of the dangers and not to just do something because pal or doc said, go for it. even if people have done a cry it out, hopefully they've gone through and made sure nothing was wrong with baby first [in pain, hungry, cold, etc.].

Erynne - posted on 01/18/2010

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Helena, I'm sorry you're so insecure that you take things as a personal attack. Every mother has a right to do what they think is best for their children, but you really shouldn't get so offended when people post research that shows that something you did is actually damaging. You didn't know any better at the time.

Helena - posted on 01/18/2010

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Ok you know what I am almost sorry I joined this group cause I have 4 boys and they have all CIT and they are all cir'd. And I don't think that anyone of you have a right to judge what we do as mothers it is up to us what we do. This is rediculous.

Erynne - posted on 01/18/2010

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Janelle: See, that I agree with. If the baby fusses, go and cuddle and comfort. When they're calm, replace them on their bed/cot/mattress/crib/pile of blankets/bubble wrap/whatever. Repeat as much as necessary for them to feel safe and sleepy and go to sleep.

Janelle - posted on 01/17/2010

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I say put your baby to bed when they are very ready to conk out. If my baby cries a little thats fine, but if she starts to scream I go and see her, and pick her up to soothe her if I need to. I don't speak to her, nor do I turn on the light ( I have the light on in our ensuite and the door slightly ajar) so she knows its bedtime. Once I have calmed her down i put her back in her cot. It doesn't take long for her to go to sleep on her own now once she understood the whole bedtime process. Babies can just scream once you place them in their cot if thats what they're used to.

Megan - posted on 01/17/2010

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I dont believe in letting your baby scream till they go to sleep they obviously have something wrong if the are screaming uncontrollably. A mother knows what kind of cry her child has whether their in pain or just crying because they want attention etc. My son sooks himself to sleep...I dont let him scream!!! I know the difference between when my son is trying to sleep or if somethings wrong. People say this is a form of controlled crying but I dont think it is that how he puts himself to sleep thats how he self sooths.

April - posted on 01/16/2010

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No regrets laura,

I'm truly not a confrontational person and I'm also sorry if I came off that way. I think we just all get very defensive and sometimes.. maybe insecure about what we do with our children, especially if we hear other things that we didn't know at the time. But really.. we all know that all we want is what is best for our own kids.

no hard feelings :)

April

Jennifer - posted on 01/16/2010

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I try to remember that all babies are different. Sometimes I find myself getting overwhelmed trying to follow what my dr suggests. Just like babies need different formulas they also need different bedtime methods. I think each mom here is doing what is best for their baby. I was very against letting my baby cry it out. Over the past two weeks I saw my little one struggle to fall and stay asleep. Up until two weeks ago he went right to sleep when I layed him down in his crib. About two weeks ago he started to cry so I held, rocked, and sang to him. I gave him massages and even let him crawl around. He would arch his back, kick his legs, get red in the face...bottom line he was just plain miserable and nothing I was doing worked for my little guy. He would finally get to sleep only to wake up 2 hours later and I would start the same process all over again. Three nights ago I decided to let him cry it out. Turns out that is just what he needed. He was asleep in 10 mins, he woke up during the night and cried. I decided to wait 10 minutes before I picked him up...again he was asleep. I watched my son go through a rough two weeks, but I thought I was doing the right thing because I wasn't letting him cry it out. I would stay with him for hours until he was asleep. I was wrong and I found that letting my son cry was what he needed (that sounds strange). I think the main thing is to meet the needs of our baby. So do what you think is best, if it works go with it. If not adjust until you feel/see that all needs are met!

Erynne - posted on 01/16/2010

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Jane: Uncomforted crying is what causes the high levels of cortisol and stress hormones to flood the brain. If your baby is colicky and crying, and you are doing your utmost to comfort (rocking, walking, bouncing, petting, touchingtouchingtouching) then that will keep the stress hormones from overwhelming the brain.

Here is an excerpt from "The Science of Parenting" that might help explain it more fully: http://3todance.blogspot.com/2009/07/sci... (and i must say, if you can borrow the book from a friend o your local library, do; it is the most up-to-date on brain research and how that can impact a developing child)

- E

Jane - posted on 01/16/2010

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Ok here's a question, what if your baby has colic & you can't console them no matter what you do & they cry for hours will that cause brain damage too?

Erynne - posted on 01/16/2010

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April: As I said, it is the choice of each individual whether they will or will not circumsize/use CIO/babywear/breastfeed/co-sleep/etc etc etc.

I do not think I have a holier-than-thou attitude, and I'm sorry if YOU interpret my posts that way. I feel my attitude is one of, "Here is what the research says. I have chosen to go with the research." Again, if you interpret my posts one way and I interpret them another, then it can't be helped.

As for CIO, the only research to back it up is people saying, "It worked." There has been no studies done to support it that showed it DID NOT cause harm. "No sign of harm" and "No harm" are not the same thing. Internal damage caused by a fall may show no sign of itself, but it's still there.

Personally, I LIKE debates. I think they're interesting. I like hearing WELL-THOUGHT OUT opposition. I DO NOT like women who set their legs like a damn stubborn mule and say, "THIS IS WHAT I DID SO I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG AND I WON'T LISTEN TO YOU SAY ANYTHING ELSE" because that's just STUPID.

I ALWAYS read counter-research... IF anyone presents it. IF someone can find a study that proves, conclusively, that CIO does no harm to an infant at all, then I will include it in my first post. But I have done a lot of scrounging to find articles on CIO that are support by science, not heresay, and I have yet to find a single scientific pro-CIO article that isn't debunked by the research that already exists.

So that's where I'm coming from. I hope it makes sense now. I'm TRULY not here to offend. I'm here to inform by passing on information that others may not have previously been aware of, and if that opens an intelligent debate, I'm here to debate. I'm not here to argue, name call, or point fingers.

I think that sums it up. :)

- E

April - posted on 01/15/2010

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Erynne - I am beginning to understand that you are a very opinionated person. I do not feel that I have mutilated my sons or made them any less emotionally stable by having them circ'd. I do know that most of the studies say that the decision to circ is now mostly a cosmetic decision and it doesn't really affect thier chances of getting a uti if they are taught to clean properly. I chose to circ because A. I thought it would be easier for them in the long run to not have to worry about cleaning, and B. it was important to my husband. I don't appreciate your "I am right and everyone else is wrong" attitude, makes you seem extremely holier than though... In every debate you can always find research both ways.. perhaps you should do some research about the other side of the debate.... just to make sure you have all your facts correct.

Elisabeth - posted on 01/15/2010

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I'm new here and just curios, what is this support group here to support anyway?

Erynne - posted on 01/15/2010

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LauraBeth: I do believe in vaccination, although I follow a slower, more drawn-out vaccination schedule that the one most pediatricians recommend.

However, there really is no health reasons to remove a piece of the body. A lot of people say, "You get fewer UTIs with circ." ....we have antibiotics. They work. Women would also get a lot fewer UTIs if you removed the clitoris and the majority of the labia. But that is ridiculous to even suggest. Sooo... why would it be okay to do that to a boy?

And yes, babies cry. It's their main way of communicating. I'm not advocating "NEVER let your baby cry!" I am advocating, "Be aware that allowing a child to scream for you, alone in the dark, will almost certainly overwhelm their brain with harmful hormones and cause irreversible changes to the structure of the brain."

I posted the information to give people a head's up. I find it VERY sad that so many women are choosing to reply with, "WELL I GUESS I TORTURED MY BABY O WELL I DON'T CARE!" That's just... depressing.

IF you do CIO... that's your choice.
IF you circumsize... that's your choice.

There is plenty of research to show that both of those things are wrong. If you choose to ignore the research... that's your choice.

But there's no chance I'd ever leave my (intact, APed, cuddled and cared for) son in the care of someone who could say, "I GUESS I TORTURED MY BABIES O WELL."

- E

LauraBeth - posted on 01/15/2010

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Erynne, That is what my sons Ped. told me and I never second guessed it. You have some very good links to back you up.

We had our son Cir'd on day one, and even though I felt horrible doing letting him get it done. it was in his best intrest.

I will also ask you this: Do you believe that it is torture to give your child shots? I still let my son get shots even though it hurts me to see him get those as well, but I know it is better for him in the long run

And on the child crying it out I only meant in EXTREME CASES!!! Every child is going to cry probly everyday, but that is why Mothers and Father are there to make it all better. we are their cargivers their life support. I know I probly dont have it right all the time but I try really hard to be a great wonderful loveing mommy

LauraBeth - posted on 01/15/2010

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April you are right! this is a support group and if I offended anyone I am sorry. Also even though I believe it is torture I had my son circ'd on day one.

Oh and Maggie, I never once said or know if you are a Bad Mother to each there own, You can put words in my mouth all you want. My son has cried in the tub and in the car and while he was eating Oh and oh could I forget getting his diaper being changed!!!! If you truely read my last post it clearly states that I am against Letting your baby cry in till they are blue in the face or pass out from exhaustion, I guess next time I should write it out a little better.

I will also state this again, Me and My Husband decieded what is best for our child, I am around my son 24 hours everyday I know what he wants before he asks or gives me signs for it.

I wish each mother the best!! And again If I offended anyone I am sorry for that!! those were my opinions and next time I will try and not be so passionate about them in a public form

Erynne - posted on 01/15/2010

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APRIL: I'm afraid you need to look up the history of circumcision. In Biblical times, circumcision was a small cut made in the foreskin, to allow a few drops of blood to fall as a sign of the covenant with God (NOT the removal of the entire prepuce organ). When Jesus sacrificed himself, circumcision was no longer a sign of the covenant. Instead, accepting Christ into your heart replaced it. Historically, Christians have been forbidden to practice circumcision. There are MULTIPLE Bible versus in the New Testament that deal specifically with circumcision. Need a couple?

Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you be circumcised, Christ will be of no advantage to you. – Galatians 5:2

For there are many who rebel against right teaching; they engage in useless talk and deceive people. This is especially true of those who insist on circumcision for salvation. They must be silenced. By their wrong teaching, they have already turned whole families away from the truth. Such teachers only want your money. – Titus 1:10-11

ALL forms of sexual mutilation (circumcision and castration included) were banned by the church as insults to God.

The complete removal of the foreskin has only been accepted within the last few hundred years. It came about as a way to prevent young men from masturbating, because the removal of the foreskin took away so many of the important nerve endings that allow a man to experience pleasure during sex.

Do your research.
http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/peron...
http://www.cirp.org/library/history/
http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/circumcis...
http://www.drmomma.org/2009/06/informati...

- E

Erynne - posted on 01/15/2010

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POLINA: You are sadly mistaken, honey. Circumcision is torture. For one thing, you are imposing your choice on another living person. Who cares that they are just a baby? They are a human being and deserve to make a choice for THEMSELVES.

Now, as far as educating yourself on circumcision, here are some articles (that you certainly won't read, because you KNOW you're right and you KNOW i'm wrong so that's all there is to it, but the articles are informative and full of more wisdom than you can ever hope to have with your current narrow-minded approach to parenting):

Photos of a circumcision: http://www.doulapattiramos.com/search/la... (if you're going to allow a piece to be cut off of the infant who trusts you to protect him, then the least - LITERALLY the least - you can do is look at these photos)
An explanation of why circumcision is for wimpy parents: http://womanuncensored.blogspot.com/2010...
The Mothers Against Circumcision page: http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

But the clearest reason to NOT circumsize your son... would you circumsize your daughter? WHY SHOULD YOUR SON BE ANY DIFFERENT?

LAURA BETH: Crying does NOT help lung development. PLEASE tell me you are JOKING that you believe that Old Wives' Tale! Read this article: http://www.todaysparent.com/baby/article... Otherwise, I agree with your post totally.

- E

April - posted on 01/15/2010

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I personally followed Dr Ferber's method with all 3 of my children when they were old enough... older than 6 mo.. to figure it out. They are all extremely well adjusted, smart, happy children who's face's light up when I come in a room. I do not believe for one second that I ever tortured my children by letting them cry for 5 minutes at a time. There is a huge difference between a hurt cry, a somethings wrong cry, a hungry cry or an I just want my way cry. If you truly know your kids, you will know thier different cries and how they communicate. The circ issue... well.. to each his own.. Little boys have been circed since Bible times.. does that make it right? who knows.. I myself circ'd my boys because I felt it was the right thing to do, not because I wanted to torture them. The minute mother's start turning on each other for the way we decide to raise our children is the minute that anarcy will rule... the fact it, each mother who is dedicated and involved in each childs life will instinctively know what it best for that child. So, lets try to get along :) this is supposed to be a support group.

Maggie - posted on 01/15/2010

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I guess I'm a torturer. My daughter CedIO because she got to heavy to carry for 45 minutes (or more). She had to cry because I needed to sleep after months of responding to her every cry. She had to cry so I could stay sane and not spend more months as a sleepy zombie who didn't feel awake enough to drive.

I guess LauraBeth knows that I'm a bad mother even though I breastfed her for 14 months and carried her for most of her first year of life, I let her CIO so I just don't care about her well-being.

Oh and I tortured her in other ways. She used to scream in the car, but I still took her places. Oh, and I washed her hair too even though she screamed her head off.

How long are these "extended periods" Dr. Sears is talking about? 30 minutes with check-ins like Ferber suggests? Or is he talking about kids who are routinely not responded to in orphanages.

[deleted account]

I let my son cry sometimes....as long as it isn't a frantic screaming cry....he will cry/whine himself to sleep almost every time. I do not agree with letting a child scream their eyes out if they are in need of something. SOMETIMES the mom gets a child into a habit (they know you will come right away so they cry)......perhaps everyone has different techniques, but I must say a little crying never hurt my son. I find he does it to use up the last bit of energy he has so he can go to sleep. But then again I had him circumsized, so I guess I enjoy torturing my son.... COME ON PEOPLE!

Anna - posted on 01/15/2010

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not true... my son has most often cried it out (when appropriate) and is very smart for his age, he says words and signs to me and he just turned 9 months. Babies are smarter than we give them credit for, and we are all willful and selfish people, your baby wants you do what he/she wants.. that is not what is always best for your baby. Parents know what is best for the baby.

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