Cosleeping debate in another community

Kate - posted on 03/06/2010

I get as annoyed with this sort of post as you do. the thing is though, that if a mom hasn't bonded with her baby the way we have, through breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc, they just don't get it, and probably never will. They honestly think they are right. I'm just grateful that I have bonded so well with my baby and that I get how things are supposed to be.

Geralyn - posted on 02/25/2010

They are cute! I googled images, and the first one that came up was one lounging around, scratching his butt.... Reminded me of human males for some reason... lol.

Minnie - posted on 02/25/2010

Oh yes, I forgot about the Bonobo!

Nicole - posted on 02/25/2010

Oh, and lets not mention how closely we resemble the Bonobo (Pygmy Chimp)! That may scare some who choose not to see how much we resemble nature.

Quoted from Wiki:
Closeness to humans:

"Bonobos are capable of passing the mirror-recognition test for self-awareness. They communicate primarily through vocal means, although the meanings of their vocalizations are not currently known. However, most humans do understand their facial expressions[15] and some of their natural hand gestures, such as their invitation to play. Two Bonobos at the Great Ape Trust, Kanzi and Panbanisha, have been taught how to communicate using a keyboard labeled with lexigrams (geometric symbols) and they can respond to spoken sentences. Kanzi's vocabulary consists of more than 500 English words[31] and he has comprehension of around 3,000 spoken English words.[32] Some, such as philosopher and bioethicist Peter Singer, argue that these results qualify them for the "rights to survival and life," rights that humans theoretically accord to all persons.

"There are instances in which non-human primates have been reported to have expressed joy. One study analyzed and recorded sounds made by human babies and Bonobos when they were tickled.[33] It found although the Bonobo's laugh was a higher frequency, the laugh followed a similar spectrographic pattern to human babies.[33]"

They also carry and nurse their young for about 5 years but yet give birth only about every 5 to 6 years despite frequent sexual contact.

Very interesting primates if you ask me. They look closer to humans than any other primate, too.

Minnie - posted on 02/24/2010

And we have a less than 2% difference to chimpanzees, orangutans, and gorillas!

Nicole - posted on 02/24/2010

LOL Susanne! I know exactly what you are saying. Except for some reason my husband finds my breasts so much sexier when I am pregnant and/or breastfeeding. he he! I'm sure the fact that they are a whole size larger during pregnancy and almost 2 sizes larger when breastfeeding has nothing to do with it! When he tries to mess with them while I am lactating, I joke with him about getting shot in the eye. Ha ha ha! Anyway... TMI !!!

Susanne - posted on 02/24/2010

Breasts are attractive and sexy? Hee hee ive spent so much of my married life breastfeeding my husband refers to me sometimes as his little dairy cow lol. Now i can tell him its official they are attractive and sexy, mind seems as i got so many kids maybe he worked that out already lmao.

Nicole - posted on 02/24/2010

You got booted JUST because you referred to humans as pack animals, Nicole??? How ridiculous!?! You were SO singled out on that one.



And like Lisa said, "don't dare compare us to other animals!" We are so superior. We can leave our babies to cry themselves to sleep to make them "independent" and we have the luxury to feed our young milk from an actual "animal" because our breasts are only there to be attractive and sexy!



We can't compare ourselves to animals because we are SO superior, but we can feed our helpless little babies their inferior milk???? Hmmmmmm...

Geralyn - posted on 02/24/2010

Lisa, I made a similar comment in a thread about less than 15% of our DNA makes us human as opposed to some other animal.... I was expecting someone to say something.... We are so egotistical as humans, aren't we?

Minnie - posted on 02/24/2010

Don't compare us to other animals, Nicole! That's one deadly mistake I manage to do over and over in a debate.

Apparently I have forgotten that we humans are made from pixie dust.

Nicole - posted on 02/24/2010

I think I would get the boot from that community. I got poopooed in another community when I pointed out that humans are pack animals- that includes sleeping in a "den". i don't get why we have to deny our primal needs. The only thing that separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom is our uncanny ability to ignore and isolate our young and our ability to lie to ourselves. Pretending we are superior is clearly failing our species. Heh other critters (pack mammals that is) only leave their young alone to sleep if they want them to get eaten by something else as a result of a birth defect.

Minnie - posted on 02/23/2010

That's really stupid, that you can't compare two different subjects in one debate. That's ridiculous. But I myself did bring up breastfeeding (I said I could no less force my daughter to breastfeed than I could to bedshare with her- it's natural) and no one said anything. Sounds like they singled you out.

Nicole - posted on 02/23/2010

Man, I can't leave an up-in-the-air post like that and then not get back on for a while. LOL We are moving into our new place and since the closing is done, I have been packing and painting today... Anyway...

Lisa, according to Gillian (the mod) in the debating community, we are not allowed. I thought maybe it was something in the rules of that community, but now I can't seem to find some sort of rule. Go figure! And, yes, Geralyn, I WAS just drawing a comparison and, in my opinion, the fact that none of them gave a rebuttal, except Gillian blasting me, spoke volumes to how they HAVE already formed opinions about AP-ers.

The lazy comment was actually said in the "By the Book" community. (Which I found after doing some eStalking. He He!) It was made in their own thread about co-sleeping. See, like you, Brenda and Kim have said, I think SOME formula feeders do it because they, themselves, are lazy. Some of them do it with the intention that they heard formula makes the baby sleep longer. Not to mention that they, themselves, don't have to do the feedings at all. Someone else can do it. (Please note: I don't think all formula feeders are lazy.)

Kim - posted on 02/23/2010

AP and co-sleeping is dumb-assed lazy parenting?!?!? RRRRRrrrrrr!!!!!! I am sorry but any one who will throw an infant into it's bed (usually stuffed with formula and baby rice) and let it cry it out because the parent doesn't want to be bothered at night by it's needs, in my opinion, is dumb assed lazy parenting! Teaching our children that they can't rely on their parents for comfort is some how good psychologically? Retards!

Brenda - posted on 02/22/2010

Lazy? We're lazy because we breastfeed and cosleep? That just really pisses me off and makes me want to go and post a long ranty post about it. But I won't. Because in the end it will just make me even madder. I spend more time tending to my kids than I spend tending to myself, yet I'm lazy? I choose not to force an infant to sleep 12 hours straight so I can sleep and I'm lazy? I don't parent? What the hell do you call it when you LIVE and BREATHE your children day AND night? I'm...oh, I just don't even know how to react anymore. That's so why this is one of the only places I come on here.

Geralyn - posted on 02/22/2010

That is ridiculous, Nicole. I saw that comment, and you were not going off topic. You were drawing a comparison. How is it off topic? All the crap we have to read through - like that sex tangent that Jackie "by the book" took everyone down in the co-sleeping debate... How was that any less off topic than the BF'ing comment? That was excrutiating, because I frankly don't care where or when or how frequently they have sex....

Was the comment about lazy BF'ers in that "extended BF'ing" debate? For some reason, I didn't read that one.... I don't know why. I really only joined to see the activity on the co-sleeping debate. Maybe we should start a debate about who is lazier - a mom who tends to their baby's needs all night or a mom who sticks their baby in a cold dark room and who doesn't feed the baby for 10-12 hours - stuffing their kids full of formula and cereal so that they can get some shut eye.... I cannot believe that someone would say a mom is lazy for BF'ing while co-sleeping. Yeah, I chose those sleepless nights of nursing every 2 hours and disrupted sleep, so I didn't have to stagger down the long hallway to stick a bottle in my baby's mouth and plop him back into his crib at the first chance....

Katherine - posted on 02/22/2010

Ok on the welcome page you got in trouble about a BF debate? Or another community?

Minnie - posted on 02/22/2010

So you're not allowed to compare in a debate if it involves bringing up a different subject?

Nicole - posted on 02/22/2010

Okay, I just did a little eStalking myself... Man, some people are just nasty!

Oh really? Because I am currently bed-sharing with my 4 (almost 5) month old because he still wakes several times throughout the night to breastfeed makes me lazy??? Well, it's very important to me that my baby is breastfed and it's also very important that when 6 am comes, I have gotten enough sleep to care for 2 dogs, a husband, 4 kids, and do my work from home stuff. WOW! I never realized just how lazy I was! Hmmmm...

I guess that goes along with the comment about mothers who exclusively breastfeed do it because they are lazy... =S

Nicole - posted on 02/22/2010

"The lime-domed cat person"!!! ROTFL!!!!! I bet you didn't know you would have me laughing so hard with that one did you, Geralyn?

And thanks for the reminder about how to debate.

I got into trouble by one of the mods for bringing up the extended breastfeeding debate in that debate and I know that's against the rules but I wasn't trying to break the rules, I was just trying to point out that they all had it in for a particular set of mothers. I was trying to call them out on their bias. Especially since I was the one trying to stay in the middle on the co-sleeping debate and they were still jumping down my throat. Oh well.

Minnie - posted on 02/22/2010

Thank you Geralyn, for the reminder to not bring emotion into a debate and remain objective. I needed it at least :).

Susanne - posted on 02/22/2010

I agree Geralyn i shouldve just shut up and let her look like a complete pratt like she normally does but it really riled me up and i lost the plot. I just dont get why she had to say that people with a few kids couldnt support them i mean shes making judgements about people she hasnt a clue about. AAArgggghh see im ranting again just thinking about it lol.

Geralyn - posted on 02/22/2010

My recommendation for taking the wind out of anyone's sails who is coming at you is 1) to not engage them - so don't keep going back and forth with them, make your points to the wider audience, and 2) to not let them know that they "offended" you.... And not get in pissing matches. They look ridiculous with their crude language and their insults. On the other hand, who is really influencing parents who may be on the fence on an issue? You are, by just putting forth what you believe and the basis for the beliefs. The lime-domed cat person is annoying as all get out, and I actually think she may be diagnosable, but I'll defer to Brenda for that one.... Do not engage her. She thrives off of that..... Who gives a shit if her relatives in Japan don't agree with a study's outcome?

Susanne - posted on 02/22/2010

Well i never said she was attacking me i just said to her that her comment was a bit offensive and she should think before she types. It was the other two who i fet attacked by i made one comment to sharon saying i was offended and then the next thing i know that Dana Schenk was telling me to leave her alone or she'd block me then that Jodi Adams jumped on the bandwagon too. Obviously they must be her mates otherwise they wouldnt have jumped down my throat so quick. I think it had something to do with that co sleeping debate because that Dana reckoned i was having a go at her because of another debate when i wasnt. To me just because i disagree with someone on one debate doesnt mean i will disagree with what they say on every post they make from then on.

Kylie - posted on 02/22/2010

oh its a pity you left the main page Susanne :( we need more opinions/advice from mothers like you. Sharon walks such a fine line with most her comments. I don't know why you were threatened to be blocked..i don't see you breaking the guidelines and i don't think Sharon was attacking anyone. That wasn't handled too well hmm...

Danielle - posted on 02/22/2010

dumbass lazy parent because you AP or some other reason (sorry- I didn't read it. I try to stay away from "debates" b/c often there is just flaming and not debating. This seems to hold true in any community I've been to- not just CoM)?
If it's b/c you AP then I guess we're all dumbass lazy parents...

She came after me in one thread (about the little boy who got suspended because of his long hair...) basically telling me that I had issues because I supposedly said (though I know I didn't) that my child was being assaulted in school and I did nothing about it. Also, she pointed out that I must not be a very good parent if I couldn't homeschool successfully and sent my son to public school just because I couldn't get him to sit still for me... beautiful logic. I'm a bad parent because my son would rather play with me than sit still during a lesson. Yep. Ugh. Some kids just do well with other people who aren't mommy for schooling. If we had like a co-op in the area or something I'd pull him back out of the school system but alas, we don't so he's in public school. Doesn't make me a bad mom tho she implied that I am.

I was annoyed but figured I'd ignore her. From what I've seen of her (I'm still pretty new here) she's not worth the energy it would take to get angry.

Traci - posted on 02/22/2010

There's another thread in Parenting Debates where she essentially called me a 'dumbass lazy parent'. She did not specifically name me, but it was obvious from her comment it was referring to me. I suppose that I opened the gates with my comment in the co-sleeping thread, but I'm biding my time with her...

Katherine - posted on 02/22/2010

I'm taking care of that.

Traci - posted on 02/22/2010

Imma take Sharon on, you just watch. I got seasoned chops, I can hang...

Danielle - posted on 02/22/2010

oh ew. Sometimes I can be a breastfeeding nazi but formula has it's time and place. Not to mention, how others choose to feed their kids is just none of my business. To block someone for mentioning formula is just asinine!
I left a different community (not on CoM) a few years back b/c I was basically an outcast. I had a differing opinion than most of the posters (read: I attachment parent, they were all very mainstream) and I kept getting attacked. It's just gross how some people act!

Susanne - posted on 02/22/2010

Talking about other communities i just left welcome to circle of moms. Sharon Grey made a bitchy comment about women who have big families cant afford to support them anyway and i objected to the comment so her fan club came out and had a go at me then threatened to block me for 24 hours so i told them to block me see if i care and then i left. Im so annoyed it seems on some sites the only opinion your allowed to have is the one the people in charge agree with. Ive already left one breastfeeding group because they refused to let formula be mentioned, i never used formula but i still think its wrong that if you mention formula your post will be deleted and you'll be blocked.

Traci - posted on 02/21/2010

Oh, Geralyn. I wanted badly to come back at her again, it's like shooting fish in a barrel over there sometimes. Sadly, I had to get Mom from the airport, and probably will be incommunicado for a couple weeks... That thread too longer to get locked then I expected it to!

Fiona - posted on 02/21/2010

Oh, poo. It has been locked. I had just gotten started and was really, really getting into it. This 'debating' of topics that I feel strongly about is strangely addictive. Agh, I have homework that I should be devoting my time to, but, I...can't...turn...away... no matter how hard I try. I agree that the rude, inflammatory posts were detracting from the whole experience and not adding to the debate, it is a shame that people can't respond with intelligent, well argued points. The whole thing could actually be very educational for both sides then (and maybe I could then steal some points for my assignments and make my time spent there less wasted :)).

Geralyn - posted on 02/21/2010

They did lock the debate on co-sleeping. There was so much pissing back and forth, like the mom who kept coming after Traci only to claim that she has only made the comment ONCE. Yeah, once and then you kept telling us about it, lady. I did want to say on that post though - and I should have - that I didn't feel "attacked" by the moms who insulted co-sleeping.... They were only throwing out inflammatory words and phrases with no "data" or "evidence" to support their positions. Words and phrases like that are meaningless to me. It did not bother me that they are saying that our children will be screwed up for life.. or whatever the hell they said. They do not know us, they do not know our children, they do not know anything about the lifestyles that we live.



I debate all day long at work, I have to argue points all the time with evidence or facts to back them up, and be persuasive. I have been in front of panels of judges having to defend my cases, and I have gone up against some brilliant legal minds (not that I liked them as people, but I respected them, and I thought they did exactly what they needed to do...). Its unfortunate that the inflammatory moms could not respond with cohesive arguments. I may disagree with them, but at least I would have respected their opinions.



Some of the debates on there are quite interesting and not so heated.... Its worth checking out. Plus if there are more of us (lol) then the "debates" (and I use that term loosely) aren't so one-sided.

Leighanna - posted on 02/21/2010

I agree Danielle, a lot of what Jo says is so wrong in my opinion, both professionally as a nanny of 17yrs myself and personally as a parent. I cringe at some of the things she says sometimes

How clean is my house is brilliant, those houses are so dirty I'm amazed even the bugs that are there can live in them never mind the people

Danielle - posted on 02/21/2010

LMAO @ Lisa don't you love how they stick things in the toilet? I just yelled at my little one yesterday not to clean something with a wipe he stuck in the toilet to moisten....ew....not a good source of water bud!!

I agree Supernanny makes me feel SOOOO much better about my kids!! The forceful weaning of the 14 month old infuriated me though- that child and the mother!!! (I mean she in tears!) were NOT ready to wean!!!!! I honestly think what pisses me off the most is to my knowledge, Jo doesn't have kids! So how the heck is she a parenting expert?!?!?! I think she's 100% wrong most of the time.

Oh I watched this one with the naughty spot...she kept putting the kid back in time out and insisted that consistency with work with all children. I'd honestly like to see her try that with my kids...they're good kids for the most part but we've learned that time out DOES NOT work. Ever. With Adam- grounding works best. With Logan, letting him know that he upset you with his actions works best because he likes to please people. If you show him that he made you angry or hurt your feelings then he apologizes and usually won't do it again. Time out however, does not work as neither of them (regardless of how many times you put them back there) will stay put. Ever.

I have to look into this how clean is your house. I know mine is beyond what it should be on most days (Logan is a slob to be honest and seems to think when he's done with something you should just toss it on the floor...food included so I'm constantly chasing after him and rarely have time to clean anything but his mess!) but I think seeing other people's messes may make me feel better ;)

Susanne - posted on 02/21/2010

Hate it when they do that i was just getting into it lol

Leighanna - posted on 02/21/2010

I noticed they had :)

Susanne - posted on 02/21/2010

They've locked the other debate lol i think i might have been annoying them lol

Leighanna - posted on 02/21/2010

no me and my friend usually end up on the phone to each other gasping in disapproval at the houses and just plain shocked at supernanny!

Susanne - posted on 02/21/2010

Leighanna im glad im not the only one lol

Leighanna - posted on 02/21/2010

@ susanne. I love watching supernanny for the same reason. If I am having a day when I doubt myself I watch it and soon realise what a good job I'm doing.
Haha how clean is your house really cheers me up on my can't be bothered to clean too much days as my house will never ever be that bad no matter how lazy my day has been! :)

Leighanna - posted on 02/21/2010

oh my goodness, How can people be so ignorant? A "horrendous habit"??? Well thanks to my horrendous habit I have a beautiful, happy, loving, contented little girl so I will continue doing what I know is right for my little girl, who are they to judge us?


sorry, rant over

Emily - posted on 02/21/2010

This is one of the reasons I never joined that board. Too many people with closed minds... it's just pointless to try to debate with them because they have already made up their minds and they DON'T get it.

Susanne - posted on 02/21/2010

I love supernanny only so i can see all the messed up kids out there and then i can look at mine and go see they aint so bad lol. I watch How clean is your house with Kim and Aggie for the same reasons so i can look at my house and think it looks lovely compared to theirs lol.

Minnie - posted on 02/20/2010

"No, you cannot swish the fish net in the toilet and then suck on it."

That was me forcing my 16 month old tonight...sigh...lol.

Geralyn- I saw one episode of Supernanny where she up and forced mother to wean her 14 month old- and to refuse the little ones to come into mom and dad's bedroom at night. Doesn't anyone consider the fact that cold-turkey forcing before they are developmentally ready for that transition may be what causes the clinginess and fear of transitioning later in their childhood?

I see it the same way Danielle. Our children are little for this short time- and one day they won't want us to cuddle with them. When I am old and grey I would rather remember these nights of nursing and cuddling my wee ones during the night in my bed than how early I was able to get them to sleep by themselves all night.

Danielle - posted on 02/20/2010

Ok there's no quote thing so excuse this please but Traci you crack me up!

"So, here's another idea....

Clearly, we are a group of women who don't believe in forcing things on children. Obviously, there are things you will have to force. No, you can't play in the street. No, you can't shave the kitty. No, you can't eat batteries."

I'm dying. Wow. How about No, you can't pet the dog with your vasoline covered hands? Or (I encountered this last night and OMG EW) no you can't mix sweethearts candies and sprite in your potty with my stitch holder!

I am completely with you that there is a time and a place for forcing them to do things and some things don't have to be forced so why do it? I'm a firm believer of treating my kids the way I would want to be treated and I don't want someone to force me to sleep where I don't want to or to do anything that I don't have to for that matter.

I also agree 100% that as a parent, our lives are all about them. I've found myself thinking "wow you're so selfish" as well or "why did you even bother having kids?" in similar situations like you mentioned. I'm glad to know that I'm not alone ;) Not just in regards to cosleeping but anything really. People who won't breastfeed because they don't want to be inconvenienced or because they don't want to have to do all the feedings or better yet- because they can't go party and get smashed o.O Or the people who endlessly leave their kids with sitters so they can go clubbing and whatnot. I find myself, in all of these situations, asking myself "WHY?"
For me, my life is centered around my kids. Sometimes I go without things that I need or want because I have to buy things for the kids and they come first- always. Yes, sometimes having my bed occupied by only me and my fiance would be nice but in the big scheme of things- they're only little for a short time. I like them snuggling in my bed and when they're too old to do so, THEN I can have my bed to myself ;)

Cassy - posted on 02/20/2010

All I can say to them are words that are inappropriate, I am probably younger than all of them, yet I feel so much more mature at 22(yes, I am 22 with a 5 yr old), than they are.

Geralyn - posted on 02/20/2010

I honestly think that they see The Super Nanny where the kids notoriously will not sleep in their own beds and the nanny ends up training the parents to discipline the kids.... They attribute those issues to co-sleeping and ignore the fact that the family's dysfunction is evident in EVERYTHING not just sleeping habits.... Those kids are tantrumming at bed time for a whole host of reasons...

That pisses me off, too, Cassy, like Sharon Grey's snide comment on the debate sight. I can't even remember what word she used, but basically saying that our screwed up co-sleeping kids will not be competition for her kids... Whatever... They do not know what they are talking about....

Cassy - posted on 02/20/2010

My 5 yr old is in her own bed in our room, because that's where she chooses to be, and is quite independent! She loves to be a leader and do her own thing. My 5 month old shares our bed and each time someone comes over they comment on how she is always smiling! I want to know why those people think my children will be so screwed up because of this?