Creation: Long-day or short-day?

Carla - posted on 10/04/2012

Angela, the Flood statement wasn't for you, it was someone else, and I just added it in as a general response. Also, you were correct, Jesus died 'on the day of preparation', which, if the Sabbath is Saturday, it was Friday. So, He was in the ground Fri afternoon until 6:00, then it was Sat., and He rose on Sunday, after 6 am. 3 calendar days.



I think maybe it's time to close this thread. I think we have given Katrina a lot of opinions.



Thank you all for your responses.



God bless

Angela - posted on 10/04/2012

Carla, I don't think God "cheated" if He used longer days ..... IF His days were longer, and consequently His day of rest was longer - then remember His "work days" were longer too! It's all proportional - like it still is with us! Except most of us in paid work generally get TWO days off per week! And for some people, their jobs are 24/7 - I'm thinking of housewives here in particular - no rest at all!! My own job has random days off - my days off this week will be different ones next week! And I don't regularly get 2 days off every week - it's spread over the month. I might sometimes work 10 or 11 days on the trot - and then get 3 days off in a row! I envy those who work regular hours, Monday - Friday!



Also I didn't say I disbelieved in Noah's Flood, just that I found it hard to understand but I put in links to scientific evidence/research which supports that the flood really happened.



Linda, the bit I really like in your post is "when we get to heaven we will all find that we erred on some issues". I'm pretty sure I'll have got quite a few things wrong - but until the Lord explains it to me when we meet face-to-face, I'll not know exactly WHICH bits I'm wrong about!



I'm not sure about Christ's death being on a Thursday to be honest, Linda, but I respect your research. Since the Sabbath begins at sundown the night before (every day begins at sundown the day before!) I understand that Jesus was buried hurriedly to avoid breaching Sabbath traditions. The women who came on the Sunday morning (who weren't aware He'd risen) wanted to anoint His body with herbs/oils/spices as befitted someone who not only was greatly loved by them but also held in religious esteem - they'd held off doing this on the Friday night and all through the Saturday because of the Sabbath.



We could also argue that the true Sabbath is on a Saturday (as in Biblical times) but a very large proportion of modern Christians are Sunday-keeping! Is this "wrong"? There is no specific directive in the New Testament that states the first day of the week replaces the seventh day as the Sabbath.



There is a theory that birds are the descendants of the dinosaurs (who were reptiles of course) and this would be "macro evolution". Of course, I wasn't around in those times, LOL!! There are said to be mutants though quite possibly in every species, even though those mutants probably don't effect evolution. Some people confuse evolution with metamorphosis as in pupa to butterfly etc .... but that's just the particular life cycle of some individual species.



We could go around and around with various questions, ideas and theories forever! That's why I said that the central meaning of Christianity is salvation through Christ's sacrifice by God's grace. There are people on this Earth who will accept their God-given salvation and put their faith in Jesus that may never even fully know all the other writings of the Bible - they might not live long enough to find out about the rest of the Bible or somehow not be in any position to get the chance to study it ... Are these people any less "saved"?



Moses, who was raised with the Egyptian Royal Family saw for himself the great things this ancient civilisation achieved. I don't deny that whatever methods they used (another great mystery!!), they were amazing engineers. This is not the same as linguistic & communication skills. The Egyptians used a written alphabet/writing method called heiroglyphics which were based on pictures. In principle this seems fairly primitive. I feel that the peoples of ancient times were less equipped to record in writing extensively and moreover, not everyone of those times (and later) had the time or the understanding to fully absorb written records, so they were essentially kept simple and brief (not only the Bible, but also other ancient writings). Had the Bible been written in more detail perhaps many of our questions would be answered.

Linda - posted on 10/03/2012

Angela, first I want to say that in no way am I judging you for what you believe. I do believe that when we get to heaven we will all find that we erred on some issues. All truth is God's truth, and we will never understand everything. I do think, however, that some Christians were a little too accepting of evolution in the past without examining the theological implications of that. Also, I do distinguish between macro-evolution, the belief that one species can change into another species via mutations (something never observed) and micro-evolution, where a species can change color, size, or other characteristics but still stay within the species (something observed quite frequently).



As far as Jesus death is concerned, I actually take a view which is not the norm. I believe Jesus actually died on Thursday and did spend 3 nights in the grave. I think there is much confusion on this issue because people don't understand the Jews were celebrating a special Sabbath, a Sabbath which began on Friday (or Thursday night according to Jewish reckoning.) My husband and I have done much research on this, corresponding the Jewish Feasts to significant events in the life of Jesus. This was Passover week, and this needs to be taken into account. A day is a day is a day.

Carla - posted on 10/03/2012

Angela, I was going by your statement 'The definition of a day is the amount of time it takes the Earth to spin 360 degrees on its axis. These days it takes 24 hours. Who knows how long it took at the beginning of time?'



If God used this 6 day work week and rest on the 7th in the 10 Commandments, I can't believe He 'cheated' in using longer days. And, just to add something else in, in the recording of the Flood, it says the fountains broke up and all the water in the earth came forth as well as in the heavens (Genesis 7: 11 and 12).



God bless, all

Angela - posted on 10/03/2012

Linda, I've never read Darwin's book ORIGIN OF THE SPECIES to be honest so I don't know too much about the ins & outs of Evolution. I understand "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest" and feel these sub-theories are manifest as evidence in the extinction of certain species of animals & plants. I don't believe humans are evolved from apes or that humans and apes have a common ancestor. I think when you said that science doesn't disagree with Creation as described in the Bible, this was what I meant when I said Creation and Evolution aren't at variance with one another. I use the term "Evolution" to broadly mean those parts of the Evolution theory I understand and agree with. I'm sure you're right when you say there are holes in Darwin's theory. We were given quite a basic description of it at school, as I remember.



OK as regards time (or the length of a day) in Biblical records - here is a scripture which is understood to refer to Jesus rising 3 days after His death:



John 2:19

"Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up'"



Now since we're still not all in agreement on whether the "days" God spent creating the Universe and all that's in it were literal 24 hour days as we know them now or if they were a different, perhaps lengthier period of time, we need to look at the "3 days" Christ was in His tomb before resurrection.



Jesus died in the late afternoon/evening of the Friday. He rose in the early hours of the Sunday morning. Three days is understood to be 72 hours because there are 24 hours in a day. The time between Jesus' death and resurrection was actually less than 2 days, more like one & a half days - say around 36 hours, rather than 72 hours which would be a true and literal interpretation of 3 days.



So, in effect, the New Testament appears to also have blurred time boundaries.



Now I appreciate that the custom of those times was to count the days at both ends and since Our Lord was dead for that latter part of the Friday, all of the Saturday and the beginning part of the Sunday before He rose up, then the people of those times would call it 3 days. Fair enough.



With this in mind it's reasonable to say that if the New Testament doesn't always have literal and precise time boundaries, then it's fair to assume that the Old Testament doesn't either. I often wonder how 40 days and nights of rain can produce a flood to cover the entire earth, but if the Bible says that happened, I'm happy enough to believe it. Apparently, science and geology have provided evidence in rock and fossils (found many miles inland) that the Great Flood did indeed occur, so although we don't need the verification of science in religious beliefs it's always a bonus when we get it anyway!!





http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGeULHljD...



http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/...





And Carla I DO believe the writings of the Old Testament - but I don't feel God will judge me for how I believe ..... You have said yourself that our own logic/intelligence doesn't match that of God so simply not understanding - or coming up with a possible & credible solution in terms of normal human logic to help us believe more easily is really much better than dismissing it all as crazy fantasy (as many non-believers do). God wants us to embrace His Word as truth.

Linda - posted on 10/03/2012

To extend Carla's point, there is an observable scientific basis for a month and for a year, based on the moon, the earth, and the sun. There is no such basis for the week. That was God's example to us in His creation. We DO need to take God at his word. I really feel it when I do not take my day of rest...I drag for the rest of the week.



A further point is that Genesis was written by Moses under the inspiration of God. He was neither uneducated nor unsophisticated. He grew up in the court of the most highly developed civilization of the day....a civilization which created the Great Pyramids without the benefit of modern construction equipment---and we still don't really know how they did it. Ancient Egypt was an extremely sophisticated culture.



I'm sorry, but you just can't have macro-evolution and creation exist together. They do not mesh. Also, Darwin was not "humble" in calling evolution a theory...it was really a hypothesis by a disilusioned theologian--he wasn't even a trained scientist at all! There are so many holes in the "theory" that if it didn't have to do with the beginning of the universe (and let people off the hook for not believing in God), it would have been dismissed years ago. In fact, spontaneous generation WAS disproved years ago, and yet it lives on in evolutionary theory.



I realize that many Christians decided to accept evolution back in the '60's and '70's because they didn't want to seem "out of touch" and there was no science to back up creation. However, I would encourage any Christian who has accepted these ideas in the past to do their own research. Starting in the '80s, many organizations starting putting out quality research delineating the problems with evolutionary theory. Also, recent advances in science at the molecular level only further emphasize the problems. Check out "Answers in Genesis" or the Institute for Creation Research. Both are scientifically rigorous organizations which have solid evidence to back up the claims in the Bible.



Science and the BIble do NOT contradict each other. Science has backed up the Bible over the years when it has been accurate science. However, science has often been wrong and has had to fix misconceptions over the years. Almost every scientist who has contributed to our knowledge base prior to Darwin believed whole-heartedly in Genesis.

Carla - posted on 10/03/2012

I think it is ESSENTIAL to be able to take God's Word as absolute law. If we don't believe the first book, how are we going to believe the last book?



Again, I reiterate--God created the world in 6 24-hour days to be an example to us on how we are to handle our workloads. How can He tell us 'hey, it took me millions of years, which I called a week, to create the world, but now I am telling you to get your work done in 6 days'?



We have to be extremely careful about WHAT we believe.

Angela - posted on 10/03/2012

The definition of a day is the amount of time it takes the Earth to spin 360 degrees on its axis. These days it takes 24 hours. Who knows how long it took at the beginning of time?



I don't feel, broadly speaking, that Creation and Evolution are really at variance with one another. I can comfortably believe in both. Evolution is a theory rather than a definite fact, Darwin was humble enough to call it a theory! I think the way I regard the origin of life and the universe is known as "Theistic Evolution".



I believe that the Bible is God's word, written by humans who were divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. And back in those early days (whenever exactly Genesis was written) there was neither the education nor the sophistication of language that we have now, so it was described in simplistic terms.



Central to our belief as Christians is the message of salvation. If we believe that Jesus died for our sins and by accepting His gift we can dwell with Him in his Kingdom after our deaths, does it really matter how long a day was at the dawn of time when God created the Universe?



Science and history are wonderful things. Sometimes historians or scientists might make errors or be mistaken, although much of the time we get a reasonably accurate account from them. It's wonderful to find out about new discoveries about this wonderful world we live in! I accept what I learn from science and history and it doesn't interfere with my Christian beliefs.



I have absolutely NOTHING to gain by "proving" (or trying to prove) Creationism OR Evolution - OR in fact, how long it took the Earth to do a 360 degree spin around at the dawn of time.



Life's too short!!

Carla - posted on 10/03/2012

Exodus 20:8-11: 'Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'



This is the 10 Commandments chapter. This is the guidelines for our Christian life. If we take God at His Word, we realize He is giving us a very clear answer to long day-short day. He says if I can create the entire universe in 6 days, you surely can get everything done in your lives in 6 days, as well. If we believe long day, we will say to the Lord, 'but You didn't REALLY take only 6 days, you took 6,000 years, cuz Peter says a thousand years is as a day.'



You are right, we can't put God in a box. But we have to take the Words He has given us and work within the confines of them. I believe He deliberately got all His work done in 6 days to give us a pattern for our lives. So, no matter WHAT the thinkers of our day say, I will believe God and work within the 6-day week pattern He gave us. If He can do it, so can I ;)



God bless, all

Linda - posted on 10/02/2012

Just to clarify, the Jewish day DOES start in the evening. That is why Jews start celebrating the Sabbath Friday night when the sun goes down.

Heather - posted on 10/02/2012

As a Christian my entire life, I have over many years wrestled with the Creation story when it comes to how the Lord created the earth and how long it took him. The only place that I have found rest in this question is in 2 Peter 3 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

There were many posts that spoke of believeing the words of the scriptures litterally, so let me ask you this, why do you take Genisis literally with a day being a day, but throw 2 Peter out the window?



The wonderful thing about God is that no matter what you think, no matter what you believe to be His timeline, He dictates when He does something and how long it takes Him. That is why when He tells you that He has you in a certain dispinsation for a "season" that "season" can last ten years. To us a season means 3 months. Fall for example. To Him a season is the length of time it takes for Him to accomplish the work that He has set to do. Do you notice how He droke down the "day" in Genisis. He said the evening and the morning were the first day, second day, etc. That indicates that there was a work accomplished.



If you take the reading of Genisis so litterally then why does your day not start in the evening and end in the morning? How do you rectify the contridiction that I am sure even you have said "Nobody is perfect" when Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Farther which is in heaven is perfect." I thought you took the bible litterally.



The wonderful thing about God is that there is no box that you can put him. I agree with you when you say that you either believe the whole bible or you believe none of it. (And this posting by the way is in response to a miriade of different postings, not one inparticular.) However, in 2 Peter 1:20, the bible also states that the scripture is of no private interpetaion. The thing that I have loved most in my walk with my God is that for every event in my life the same scripture can come to me but can mean something entirely different. That is why we never put Him in a box. He is the Beginning and the End. He is the Alpha and the Omega. Unless you were there for the beginning of the Earth, who are you to say the He created it in six of our earthly days. Do you have any idea the kind of limitation that you are putting on Him. Six of our earthly days. Mans earthly days. This is the God that partly the Red Sea. That sent manna down from heaven to feed the Jewish people. The God that set His people free in so many ways. Yet you limit him to six of man created days. Man put these days together not God. Man. We decided that 24hrs would one day God did not do that. He said EVENING and MORNING were the first days.



I boxed Him in once, and I will NEVER do that again. There are so many things yet to learn about Him. The scripture talks about always being hunry for the knowledge of Him. That means that we will never know everything that there is to know about Him. Not until he takes us home to be with Him on His throne in His Glory. You can read and reread the bible and memorize it from front to back, but still not know a single thing about Him.



All I can say is this...God knows. Let us leave it at that.

Carla - posted on 10/02/2012

Having checked the profiles of Johnny and Jenny, I am assuming you are not believers of God. Katrina posted her question on a Christian website, and I am also assuming she was asking for answers from believers.



I don't find it odd that you don't believe in Creationism, because you don't believe in God. We have debated over the terminology and correctness of words, but have completely gotten off point as to her original question--long day vs short day.



Let's keep our comments to the question at hand, please?



Thank you

Carla

Linda - posted on 10/02/2012

First of all, there are many inaccuracies going around here as to correct labels. A hypothesis is when you have an idea which you want to test. After numerous experiments support your hypothesis, it is called a theory. If a theory has been tested for many decades and still holds up to facts, it is then designated a "law"....like Newton's Laws of Gravitation.



Evolution is a theory, not a fact, not a law. The biggest problem is that the beginning of creation cannot be duplicated in a lab and so cannot be tested according to the scientific method. Assumptions must be made, whether you are going on the theory of creation or evolution. Your basic worldview, which is based on faith, will determine which pieces of evidence you include in your study.



People have indeed been indoctrinated with evolution over the years. They haven't been taught any other view and are afraid to look at the evidence. Indeed many top scientists who have questioned evolution over the years have been dismissed from their positions...so many now just keep quiet about their questions so they won't lose their job. This is the opposite of the way science should be done.



To those who think all the evidence points to evolution, I would encourage you to read "Darwin's Black Box". This was NOT written by a Christian, but by a molecular biologist who shows that there are problems in evolution on the bio-molecular level. He doesn't have any other ideas as to how this world came into existence, but he points out the evolution COULD NOT have occured as stated by Darwin.



There are so many areas in which the fossil record, the individual traits of animals, the gravitational pull of the moon all contradict evolution....but it is impossible to go into all the evidence on one post. If you are not afraid to find the answers, then pursue this topic on your own.

Heather - posted on 10/01/2012

when were those polls taken? It has been a few years, and there have been many who have changed there opinion over the years. And ok maybe that was a poor choice of words to say as many, I'm human and can admit when I make a mistake, you get caught up in the moment and type faster than your thinking, but there are a lot that believe and that number is growing from what I've seen. Sure there are a lot of them who will never acknowledge any way other than evolution because that is what they believe in, just as I believe in creation and what the Bible says. They both take faith one in evolution one in God, oh sure there are some that try to squeeze God in there the way they want Him to fit but it just never quite adds up with the Bible. You have to start looking into what He said for hidden meanings or adding to what He said. We could go round and round for days, bottom line we all have the same information and look at it from completely different view points. We are lucky to live in a place where we can have or own faith and beliefs.

And I am well aware that facts can be backed up by evidence and I think they have a lack of evidence to support evolution. And yes opinions are independent and different than facts but our opinions do shape how we view the information we have to go off of. How can you prove evolution? you can not go back and have repeatable and testable observations to get those facts, your going off what you believed happened by what is left behind. You can test things that we have access to now but will always have to speculate what the missing pieces are. All we can do is agree to disagree and be civil with each other, I think your wrong and you think I'm wrong end of story. We will never find a common ground.

Johnny - posted on 10/01/2012

The vast majority of the scientific community and academia supports evolutionary theory as the only explanation that can fully account for observations in the fields of biology, paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, anthropology, and others.



^ Myers, PZ (2006-06-18). "Ann Coulter: No evidence for evolution?". Pharyngula

(scienceblogs.com). Retrieved 2006-11-18.

^ The National Science Teachers Association's position statement on the teaching of

evolution.

^ IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution Joint statement issued by the national

science academies of 67 countries, including the United Kingdom's Royal Society

^ From the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world's largest

general scientific society: 2006 Statement on the Teaching of Evolution (PDF file), AAAS

Denounces Anti-Evolution Laws

^ Fact, Fancy, and Myth on Human Evolution, Alan J. Almquist, John E. Cronin, Current Anthropology, Vol. 29, No. 3 (Jun., 1988), pp. 520–522





One 1987 estimate found that "700 scientists ... (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) ... give credence to creation-science"



^ As reported by Newsweek: "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable

academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give

credence to creation-science, the general theory that complex life forms did not evolve but

appeared 'abruptly'."Martz & McDaniel 1987, p. 23





An expert in the evolution-creationism controversy, professor and author Brian Alters, states that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution"



^ Finding the Evolution in Medicine, Cynthia Delgado, NIH Record, July 28, 2006





A 1991 Gallup poll of Americans found that about 5% of scientists (including those with training outside biology) identified themselves as creationists.



^ Public beliefs about evolution and creation, Robinson, B. A. 1995.

^ Many scientists see God's hand in evolution, Witham, Larry, Reports of the National

Center for Science Education 17(6): 33, 1997





So no, there are NOT just as many scientists and medical doctors that believe in Creation as there are that believe in Evolution. See, facts can be backed up by evidence (as cited above). We don't get to choose what the facts are. They exist independently of our opinions.

Heather - posted on 10/01/2012

No that is why it is indoctrination and you and so many others have fallen into the sheep mentality of just believing what you are told without questioning. Or maybe you have researched and really believe in evolution and that's ok if that's what you believe. But there still aren't any solid scientific facts that have been tested to prove evolution, it is what a group of scientist believe to be true that's all. And I don't think creation or evolution belong in school for they are both faith based and I think they should stick with facts unless they are going to teach both and let the kids make their own choice. There are just as many scientist and medical doctors that believe in Creation as there are that believe in Evolution. The only difference is that the evolution account is always changing they are finding out they are wrong and coming up with new explanations and the account of creation has never changed.

And as far as facts go, those viruses are mutating due to defects and at the end of the day they are still a virus they haven't evolved into anything new. And if the fossil records lie right where you expect it to then how can there be a petrified tree that was found in fossil layers standing upright down through several different layers that were supposed to be thousands or maybe millions of years apart yet one intact tree was running through all of the layers? Oh and the human "tail bone" ........

The “tail bone” is the small triangular bone at the lower end of your back bone or vertebral column. Early anatomists thought it was shaped “like a cuckoo’s beak” they gave it the name coccyx (from the Latin for Cuckoo). They didn’t call it a tail because it doesn’t look like one. It’s nickname of “tail bone” came from Darwin and his followers who believed it was the useless or vestigial remains of a tail, left over from monkey-like evolutionary ancestors. However, this bone is no more useless than any other bone in the body. So what does it do? Medical research has shown that the muscles which help us sit or stand, all gain their ability to move us only because they are attached to our fully functional and necessary so called ‘tail bone’ which of course means that human beings do not actually have a useless or even vestigial “tail bone”!

There is another truth out there if you don't want to believe that and want to continue to believe that this universe was a random accident with no purpose and that you evolved from form to form until lastly from the ape you became what you are today, well, if you don't think that takes a lot of faith I don't know what to tell you.

But for me and my family we will continue to believe what the Bible says literally and know that we are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God, our creator. And I will bring my children up in the ways of the Lord and teach them that every life is created by God with a purpose in mind, they are no random accident. I remind them often you can take all the parts to make a clock, put them together in a box and seal it up. Then you can shake it all you want, heat it up or cool it down but when you open that box back up you still will just have clock parts you won't have a clock unless there is an intelligent creator to put the pieces together. I appreciate your thoughts and your passion even if they differ from mine.

Jenny - posted on 10/01/2012

"You say I'm using the word indoctrinate incorrectly, but I think I'm using it perfectly. Kids aren't learning about evolution and creation in school they are only being taught evolution as the only fact and harshly judged if they have a different view point."



That is because evolution is the only fact. Creationism is not an equally plausible "theory" as there is no evidence to back it up and, no, the bible doesn't count. It doesn't belong in education, it belongs in church. I understand that you believe it is true but the facts say different. We have observed evolution in action (the Lenski experiments for one). There is a whole branch of medicine devoted to studying viruses using the theory of evolution, flu shots for example.



The distribution of species occurs exactly as we expect they would. The fossil record lies exactly how we expect it to. We see the details inside of the crazy mess inside our bodies and understand how it happened through evolution. Did you know the giraffe has a nerve that runs all the way down it's neck and all the way back up? It existed when their ancestors grew longer ones and kept growing with it. The male testis (testicle) wraps around the ureter (tube from kidney to bladder) because they used to be up higher in the body. Our sinus drain from the top because we haven't been upright for very long in evolutionary terms. Whales still have hipbones. Humans still carry the genetics to grow tails. The evidence, the facts are everywhere. This is why we teach it to children in school with no other option. It is the truth.



That's even before getting into the fact we can physically trace the tree of life back through genomes. We are developing maps now that show how all of the species link together. This is not a debatable subject anymore, the verdict is in.

Heather - posted on 10/01/2012

yes, but gravity is still here and they are able to test it are they not?

Krista - posted on 10/01/2012

Gravity is not a fact. It is a theory. I assure you that scientific "theories" have gone through extremely rigorous testing and experimentation. If they have not, then it is considered a "hypothesis". The word "theory" has a very different meaning in the scientific world than it does in layman's terms. The only reason that science tends not to use the term "fact" is because they acknowledge that there is ALWAYS the possibility of new discoveries that may alter what we know. Frankly, I think that shows great humility on the part of the scientific community.

Heather - posted on 10/01/2012

well you need to do a little research, evolution is not a fact it is a theory. And we are not necessarily talking about opinions but faith. I put my faith in the Bible and believe it completely yet it can't be proven by facts. But there are no facts to back up evolution either only the findings of men who want to prove the origins of the universe and man without a God.



You say I'm using the word indoctrinate incorrectly, but I think I'm using it perfectly. Kids aren't learning about evolution and creation in school they are only being taught evolution as the only fact and harshly judged if they have a different view point.Our religious leaders are being pressured into incorporating evolution into the creation account to make religion and science fit together. Every show that comes on history, science, animal planet ect.. is either based on evolution and millions and billions of years, once again taught as fact not even hinting that there may be other view points. And our kids are being taught things in school text books that have been proven to be false. A good example of this is a case of a scientist using fraudulent material to promote the theory of evolution, he was the German scientist and atheist Ernst Haeckel. Noted evolutionist Stephen Gould wrote the following regarding Ernst Haeckel's work in a March 2000 issue of Natural History:



"Haeckel’s forceful, eminently comprehensible, if not always accurate, books appeared in all major languages and surely exerted more influence than the works of any other scientist, including Darwin…in convincing people throughout the world about the validity of evolution... Haeckel had exaggerated the similarities [between embryos of different species] by idealizations and omissions. He also, in some cases — in a procedure that can only be called fraudulent — simply copied the same figure over and over again.…Haeckel’s drawings never fooled expert embryologists, who recognized his fudgings right from the start. Haeckel’s drawings, despite their noted inaccuracies, entered into the most impenetrable and permanent of all quasi-scientific literatures: standard student textbooks of biology... Once ensconced in textbooks, misinformation becomes cocooned and effectively permanent, because…textbooks copy from previous texts.... We do, I think, have the right to be both astonished and ashamed by the century of mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks!" Stephen Gould continues by quoting Michael Richardson of the St. George’s Hospital Medical School in London, who stated: "I know of at least fifty recent biology texts which use the drawings uncritically"



This sounds an awful lot like the definition you posted below. And lets touch base on why it can't be fact. There are different types of Science...one being Operational Science: an explanation of a set of facts based on a broad set of repeatable and testable observations that is generally accepted within a group of scientist.....another is Historical Science: an explanation of past events based on the interpretation of evidence that is available in the present.

When dealing with the whys and hows of the formation of earth and mankind you are dealing with Historical Science Your findings will always be persuaded by your own view point and there are only 2 either a Biblical worldview or an Atheistic worldview. Your ending results depend on which way you look at it. But it still has nothing to do with fact!! But don't take my word for it ask some questions,research how they came to those conclusions, don't just blindly follow what you hear, find out what their facts are to back up their findings. And then ask how they tested them.

Carla - posted on 10/01/2012

The Bible says God created Adam in His own image. They walked and talked with each other in the cool of the evening. Adam named all the animals. This being does not sound like the cro-magnun (sp?) we learned about in school. I Timothy 6:20-21 says 'Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some professing have erred concerning the faith.'



God is God. He cannot be explained by Man's theories. God's ways defy Man's science, and, indeed, as meant to. There are some things you just can't rationalize, because they are spiritual, not fleshly.



It is important for us to believe the Bible, every word of it. John 1 said 'In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made, that was made.....in Him was life: and the life was the light of men...(verse 14) And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.' If we don't believe in Creation, we are denying Jesus.





God bless, all

Krista - posted on 10/01/2012

"Like my 12 year old says, if evolution were true why aren't apes still turning into humans?"



If you're going to argue against evolution, then you may want to consider addressing the arguments that evolutionists are ACTUALLY making, as opposed to what you think they are saying.



Nobody is saying that man has descended from today's modern ape. What they ARE saying is that men, modern apes, and other primates all shared a common ancestor, millions of years ago. That common ancestor is long since extinct. Evolution is not giant leaps. It's teeny-tiny incremental changes that take place over a very long time. It is only noticeable when you look at things over the span of millions of years. And heck, how do you know that God didn't plan just that?



Your 12-year old's argument would be akin to saying, "You and I were each given tomatoes and told to make supper, so how come our meals are totally different?"

Jenny - posted on 10/01/2012

The word fact doesn't need quotation marks around it. You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts. Whether you beleive it or not, evolution is a fact.



Also, you are using the word indoctrinate inncorrectly.



in·doc·tri·nate/inˈdäktrəˌnāt/



Verb:

Teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically: "broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses".



That would apply to teaching of the church which rely on faith. In science, you accept facts backed up by evidence.

Linda - posted on 10/01/2012

Any believer CAN believe evolution. We are free to believe anything we want. No believer however SHOULD believe it because it contradicts Scripture, is bad science, and is unprovable. I'm not going to believe something just because the pope or anyone else believes it--show me the Scripture to back it up.

Elizabeth - posted on 09/30/2012

Amen Heather. I probably should read all the replies before I post my reply. You said what I said and more, more thoroughly and more eloquently. Thank you

Elizabeth - posted on 09/30/2012

Not to ruffle Catholic feathers but the Pope can be wrong, he is not infallible and he is not God. I was born and raised Catholic. When I was a child it was a sin to eat meat on Friday. Then one week it was no longer a sin to eat meat on Friday. Even at my young age I questioned how could a man decide something is or is not sin. Only God has that authority. From that age on I began to question and search out on my own what God has to say on things I was taught in church. Believe you me, I had quite a few conversations with the nuns and priests at my school and church. I no longer practice Catholicism but am thankful for the solid Christian foundation my parents laid for me and the love of Christ that they showed at taught from my birth. I respect many Christian leaders but I do not put any on a pedestal, and most would not want to be put there anyway. Pride comes before the fall and we must always humble ourselves before the Lord. I pray you seek God's Word over what a man says. Like my 12 year old says, if evolution were true why aren't apes still turning into humans?

Carla - posted on 09/30/2012

Nicely put, Heather. If puny human brains could comprehend God, we wouldn't need Him.



Bottom line is, either we believe, or we don't. I believe.



God bless, all

Heather - posted on 09/29/2012

These popes along with a lot of pastors, preachers and other leaders of churches in all denominations have been compromised, they have fallen prey to the indoctrination of evolution and are trying to make the Bible fit with what some scientist say is "fact" when the real facts are that there are no facts to back up evolution or creation. But we do have the Bible to back up the creation, open your Bible and read it, what does it say? Don't take the opinion of your pope or any other church leader, they are just men just like you and me and can and will be wrong and do sin just like everybody else. I have talked to many heads of churches about this topic when we were looking for a new church a while back and I was shocked that a lot would not even take a stand on this topic and and I was told by some that they would teach long-day creation because that is what the majority in their church believe but that they didn't believe it themselves but they wouldn't go against what the majority thought because they didn't want to offend anyone!!! Well I'm sorry but sometimes people need to be offended it's not the churches job to make you feel comfortable and happy it's their job to teach the word of God no matter who it offends!!! I wouldn't want to be those men standing before God in judgement one day!!! So don't take the word of a mere man because they can acknowledge a truth even though they know it isn't true. Just because they have information doesn't always mean they are going to rock the boat of majority that is giving the money to the church and share it!!! Read it yourself and make up your own mind!!

Jenny - posted on 09/29/2012

Well even the last few popes acknowledge the truth of evolution occurring. If they can do it, any believer can. If there was any evidence showing it didn't, the Vatican would surely have, and publish, that information.

Elizabeth - posted on 09/29/2012

In Genesis after each creation account the Word states that there was evening, and there was morning -- the first day, second day, etc. It seems pretty clear to me. I see no reason to believe that the earth's rotation would be any different then than it is now, 24 hours.

Heather - posted on 09/28/2012

the key words there is WE NEED, God created the light and darkness then He created the sun, moon and stars to govern the day and night after the fact.....so all we know is day and night with a sun a moon and stars, the magnitude of Gods power is beyond our understanding, and some things will never be fully understood until we are sitting at His feet and asking Him ourselves. That is why it's called faith, you just have to believe what is there and that it happened in the order in which it is written. Yes you do have to be careful of different translations of the Bible. I only go with a King James or New International version. But I do not agree with you on not taking it literally, I believe that is the only way to look at it, I believe it is the literal word of God and the history book of the world.

Rosie - posted on 09/28/2012

it says he called the light day and the darkness night. what do we need for there to be night and day? the sun and the stars.

also in genesis 2:4 in some versions of the bible it states that it took god a day to make the heavens and the earth. i think that many different versions written and interpretted by man have prevented us from actually being able to take it literally. its use as a guide is great IMO, but to delve into with it being the absolute literal word is not wise IMO.

Heather - posted on 09/28/2012

It's God we are talking about, why do you not think He could make light without the sun, moon or stars? He made the sun, moon and stars for a reason, to separate the day and night that He had already created, to mark seasons ect. it is what it is, literally. Do you not believe that Jesus was literally crucified on the cross either?

Rosie - posted on 09/28/2012

god made light on the first day, but created the sun and stars on the 4th?? to me it seems pretty clear that it's not meant to be taken literally.

Heather - posted on 09/27/2012

@ April-

True this is not technically a salvation issue but for those who are not saved it can and does make them leave the church and turn away from God. A huge percentage of our youth are leaving the church if not when they get out of high school then by the time they are out of college. Simply because they are so indoctrinated with evolution and they can't make it fit with what the Bible is saying. So they turn away from the Bible because they begin to believe it is just a bunch of made up stories to teach you how to live a good life. They think that must be true because their whole life they have had evolution shoved down their throats as fact in school, on T.V and in museums when in fact they have no proof to back any of it up!! Evolution and Creation are both faith based belief systems. Evolution is an atheistic belief system and Creation is a biblical belief system, neither of them can be proven as fact because there isn't anything to test, how you interrupt the information that we have is shaped by what you believe in. I know what happened because I believe the Bible is a our literal history book of the world. But I can't prove that, and what if you don't take Genesis literally and you start trying to make evolution and the Bible fit together where does that leave the rest of the Bible? What about when Jesus walked on the water, or when Jonah was swallowed by the fish and lived in it's belly for 3 days and 3 nights? Are these literal accounts of history or just stories to teach us something? I believe the Bible is a literal account of history from cover to cover.....you can't pick and choose what you want to believe in. In Deuteronomy 12:32 and in Proverbs 30:5,6 the Bible says that you are not to add to his words or take anything away!!! It is what it is.

A Salvation issue? No not really you don't have to believe in creation to be saved you only have to believe that Jesus is God's son and that He died on the cross for your sins and you have to admit you are a sinner and ask Him to forgive you. But a very important issue non the less!!!

Heather - posted on 09/27/2012

I also believe in 6 literal days of creation. In the creation account in Genesis God is very specific in his wording, at the end of every day he states: "And there was evening and there was morning, the first day." , "And there was evening and there was morning, the second day." ect. all the way through the sixth day when he created all the land animals, including dinosaurs, and man. He ends every creation day in this way, there are many other places in the Bible where He talks about days in context of time yet no where else in the Bible except for the creation account is He so specific. I think the reason for this is so there can be no debate, He is clearly wanting us to see that each day of creation was in fact a literal 24hr day!!!



And yes if you believe in long-day creation you knock the foundation right out from under the Bible, and this is why........

You start out in the Garden of Eden, where everything was good until what happened? Sin, sin entered the garden with the fall of man. What is the consequence of sin? Death, God killed an animal and gave them the skin to cover themselves and the blood of the animal covered their sin. So before sin there was no death, Adam and Eve were told by God in Gen:1:30 He says "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has a breath of life in it- I give every green plant for food."And so it was so. He is telling you right there that all animals and man were vegetarians in the beginning. Every one assumes T- Rex and the Grizzly Bear were always meat eaters but in reality they were not, those big teeth would have been perfect for crushing hard fruits like melons, in fact a major part of a bears diet today is fruit and plants. So how could there have been millions and millions of years of death, disease and destruction before we were punished with death as a consequence of sin....if that is true then you just took away the reason for Jesus suffering and dieing on the cross for our sins!!!! He was the ultimate sacrifice His blood paying for all our sins we just have to ask, No more do we need to sacrifice animals to cover our sins, Jesus is the only way!!!! God says He made his word so easy a child could understand it, you just need to look through a biblical world view not a secular view.

If long-day creation is what this church you are going to is teaching I think you need to find a new church.

For more info on this topic go to answersingenesis.org

Carla - posted on 09/22/2012

Ken Hamm also does a wonderful study on Genesis and gets into the genetics of the animals. I especially remember him talking about the giraffe. His beautiful long neck serves him well to get the juicy leaves at the top of the tree, but, his heart has to beat SO hard to get the blood all the way up to his brain that, once he put his head down to take a drink, his head would explode! Evolution says that animals and humans have adapted/or developed aides that better themselves. If this were true, and the first time a giraffe leaned down to take a drink, he'd die, and that would have been the end of the giraffe. God put that diaphragm inside his body to lessen the blood flow temporarily until he puts his head up again.



I don't think we, as puny humans, can fathom the greatness of God. That He made the entire universe in six literal days is not only possible, it's an allegory for us to live our lives. If He can make the entire world in 6 days, then rest on the 7th, He is telling us to get our lives straightened around so we CAN rest on the Sabbath. Whatever God makes is good. And, I would have LOVED to have been in the Garden when He brought the animals to Adam to name. Can you imagine them both laughing their heads off at a platypus? Now THAT must have taken some time! And just another thought, they say early Man was cro-magnun or whatever. If Adam had the intelligence to come up with all the names for animals, and to tend the garden, I don't think he was walking around with his knuckles dragging the ground, scratching himself. It is clearly written that God made Man in His own Image. Trying to pass him off as some dim-witted cave man is disrespectful to God.



Also, has anyone ever seen an ape in transition to human? If evolution were still happening today, and I wouldn't think it would just stop, why aren't we seeing these?



God bless, all.

Linda - posted on 09/22/2012

Interesting thought Jennifer, but that still contradicts Romans 5:12. Why is it so hard to just take Genesis literallly? Yes, God COULD have taken millions of years, but He didn't. He made it pretty clear.

Jennifer - posted on 09/21/2012

(tossing ideas into the discussion)



My husband has a unique idea on this subject. God revealed to Moses all of Creation. Moses was up on the mountain for a while. What if...it took seven days to SHOW Moses how He created everything? As has been mentioned in earlier posts, God is timeless. He has no use for our calendar days. Our lives are like a whisp of smoke. Sure, if He wanted to, God could do it all in seven of our calendar days, but why rush things? When we create, we like to think about what we want to do, plan it out, and enjoy creating it. Why wouldn't God take His time? He did take breaks and declare His creations "Good".



As far as death...could it be that God let people, with the free will bestowed upon them, choose whether or not THEY would die? Reading that they were given a CHOICE to obey and avoid death leads me to believe that death was not a new concept. Perhaps new to humans.



There is a wonderful program called "Animals that Defy Evolution" that goes into detail on why things HAD to be created. They could not have evolved. (I watched it on Netflix.) I think creatures can and have adapted to their changing environment, but essentially, they were created to be what they are. Otherwise, why would we have creatures in various states of complexity? If every animal began in the same way, wouldn't they be about as equally "developed"? My husband also pointed out there would be WAY more mutations.



Just another couple of ideas.

Linda - posted on 09/21/2012

The people arguing for a LONG day are usually the ones trying to mix evolution and the Bible together. The whole premise of evolution is the survival of the fittest. That, by definition, means that the unfit did not survive. Also, just think about it logically. If animals never died, and new ones were born every year, then after millions of years, the planet would be completely overrun.



I'm sure there are many true Christians who don't believe in the literal 7 days. However, this is because they have never seriously examined the theological issues which conflict with each other. In other words, they need to think more about it and examine the evidence.

April - posted on 09/21/2012

I'm not trying to be argumenatitive but if in fact there were millions of years in between and animals were alive....who is to say that the animals died and didn't live the whole time? I believe in a literal 7 day creation- but I also don't believe that a non literal 7 days is theologically incorrect. I also don't believe this issue is a salvation issue, nor can we be 100% sure in my opinion.

Linda - posted on 09/21/2012

If you mess with Genesis, you destroy the essential message of the gospel. Death came into the world because of sin. If you have animals living and dying for millions of years before the Fall, then death predated sin. Then if death is not a result of sin, Jesus' death on the cross did nothing for us and we have no hope of eternal life.



Believe the WHOLE Bible. Genesis was quite clear: there was evening and there was morning. ONE day. We can't pick and choose the parts we want to believe.



Moreover, the whole Bible Vs. Science debate is ridiculous. Many scientists, even non-Christians, no longer believe evolution is a viable theory because of all the problems with it. (See "Darwin's Black Box") There is a massive amount of recent research which points to a young earth, a world-wide flood, and a recent creation. Furthermore, until Darwin (who was not a scientist but a disillusioned theologan) most scientists (think Newton, Keplar, Pascal to name just a few) were all Bible-believing Christians. Isaac Newton, the father of calculus and the 3 laws of gravitation (and probably the most intelligent man ever to breathe on this planet) said he was just "thinking God's thoughts after Him."

April - posted on 09/21/2012

Time is irrelevant to God. There was no time before the created order and God is outside of time and not restrained by time. If God wanted to create the earth in 7 literal

Days- He could. If he wanted to do it over 7 million years, He could Do that as well. Point being, does it really matter?

Carla - posted on 09/21/2012

Plus remember that, in the Jewish calendar, the day starts in 6am, not 12 midnight like now.



There are a LOT of things I don't fully understand, however, that doesn't make them any less true. A friend of mine said 'faith is steppin' out on nothin', and it holds you up'. Our faith takes us over these wonderings, and I have a WHOLE list of things I have to ask God when I see Him ;)



God bless, sweethearts!

Katrina - posted on 09/21/2012

Bekah,



That was something I struggled with a bit too...until I re-read Genesis 1 and realised that growing up it was always "On the 3rd day God created......" whereas the Bible actually says "God created.....and there was evening and there was morning, the third day."



It totally changed the way it reads (and therefore the meaning). It puts a timeframe on things...

Bekah - posted on 09/20/2012

2 Peter 3:8 said With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day .... This makes me wonder sometimes if maybe time was really irrelevant.... The sun hadn't yet been created by God so for him what was a day? These are things I struggle with myself sometimes... I know though, that it doesn't change my core beliefs in creation and Christ and other beliefs which are vital to me.

Carla - posted on 09/20/2012

I absolutely agree, Katrina. If the Bible says the moon is made of green cheese, to me, it is. If we can't believe the Bible to be what it is, the Holy Spirit inspired Word, then where does this leave our faith? I saw a Nat Geo segment that the Flood didn't actually flood the ENTIRE earth, just the portion where Noah was. If that were the case, WHY would God have brought ALL the animals to the ark? Wouldn't it have just been the ones in Noah's particular area? Then I saw another Nat Geo about Moses crossing the Red Sea. They had constructed ' test' labs to show they actually crossed farther downstream to where the land was built up, and the river was low, so they could cross. If that is the case, HOW did the Egyptians drown?



The world has GOT to disprove the Bible, because if they can't, then they don't have an excuse not to believe it. Bottom line is, we believe it ALL or we don't believe ANY. Hold onto your beliefs, honey!



God bless

Tina - posted on 09/19/2012

I believe exactly what the bible says no grey. I believe that God's word is very black and white no shades of gray for debate. Why else would it say the exact days and I believe if a person believes it took longer though the bible says differently what else would one not believe in the Bible? Know what I mean? To me the text is truth so why would it lie?