Feminism and the Bible

Victoria - posted on 07/04/2012

Thank you ladies for all you input, I am sensing God saying to close this thread down now.
There have already been some quite passionate posts & I don't want to see an argument or debate among sisters.

Have a blessed day.
Pastor V. :)

Cyndel - posted on 07/03/2012

Yes, there are always going to be people who get away with sin on earth, who get the chance to torment their victims.
However, this system was designed to protect women. If her father knew the whole story would he have believed her that it was just sex? Or would he have seen past the blinders she put on her own eyes and revealed it for the forced rape it was.
Either way, the biblical meaning for rape was still more legal then anything.

Angela - posted on 07/03/2012

Cyndel, in some countries, cultures and religions - even nowadays, a rapist can avoid prosecution/punishment by marrying his victim. I think it's a shocking shame that virginity or purity is so "valuable" that an abused and violated woman would seriously consider marrying the man who perpetrated this dreadful deed. I am not for one single minute suggesting that we should all become promiscuous with an easy conscience - just that women don't feel filthy either because someone raped them or because they made a bad judgement about who they were spending time with and what they were allowing themselves to get into.

My friend who was young, inexperienced but working hard for a living and living with her parents (essentially a "decent" girl) was taken advantage of sexually. A guy she met socially either drugged her or somehow got her drunk and she knew nothing until she woke up in bed with him the next morning - she was about 18 or 19 at the time. Moreover, upon checking her handbag - her full week's wages had been stolen - she had gone out on a Friday night possibly straight from work but certainly with her pay packet in her purse. This was over 30 years ago when most people were paid weekly and in cash.

Now in truth she had been raped. She'd already told the guy "no" and said she was going home but somehow he got his way anyway.

Problem is, she didn't see it as rape. She saw it as sex and because she was basically a decent girl she didn't like to think she had a one-night-stand with a stranger. So she spent the next 3 weeks hunting this guy down with the intention of seeing him again and developing a relationship with him so she wouldn't feel "cheap". She found him (he denied all knowledge of helping himself to her wages, by the way) and she ended up marrying him and having 3 children. He was violent, a poor provider and a nightmare. She left him after a few years and she admitted to me when she was in her 40's that it was definitely rape but even if she'd stuck with her one-night-stand idea but then put it down to experience and avoided him, this would have been a better move.

Most modern men will not uncompromisingly demand a virgin wife. Many say "I'd rather be the last man in her life than the first!"

I'm not suggesting that virginity isn't precious - but aren't human people MORE precious? Isn't the human heart, soul and mind of more value than mere virginity?

Carla - posted on 07/03/2012

Lika--you have your views, I have mine. If the Bible said the first horses were purple with pink polka dots, I would believe it, because I either accept the Bible as being the undisputed Word of God, or I don't.

Each of us will stand before God at the End of Times and give an account for what we believe and how we lived. I would rather say to the Father 'I believed EVERY WORD of Your Words to us' and have Him say 'I was just kidding', than to have Him say 'I gave you LIFE in these words, WHY didn't you believe Me?' We either believe God is the ultimate Authority, ultimate Truth-Teller, the ultimate Savior of the world, or we don't.

God bless, all

Lika - posted on 07/03/2012

p.s. Back during the flood, they didn't know how large the world was, and in their world, the whole thing DID flood. It wasn't written verbatim by God, but by humans who were here to witness what happened, and the known world was much smaller than the whole.

And another thing... I saw the same program about the flood. My interpretation was that it very well could have flooded the whole world, because the Grand Canyon is proof that there had been a great flood and ice age in this hemisphere around the time of the flood. Changing what the Bible says? Nope. It's saying it's possible, they just can't prove it as true or untrue.

Lika - posted on 07/03/2012

Carla,
My stepfather is a minister, my mother is a parish nurse, and I've visited numerous churches of many denominations, different cultures, and more. I know you mean well. And to let you know, this particular show was done with a pastor from every denomination as well as a scientologist, atheist, Buddhist, Shintoist, Hindu, and name one from all different religions, and they came to the same conclusion about Mary Magdalene.

If men and women are equal under God, then the man is NOT the "head of the woman". It's very patriarchal, and please respect the fact that others have differing faith beliefs than you do. The traditional King James version is deemed to be most accurate by historians. And lets face it, when men are sick, women take care of men. When women are sick, other women are called to take care of her because her husband cannot do it.

And if the Bible is 100% accurate, whether we like it or not, would you be willing to allow your husband to have a second wife then, also, because it is written in the scripture?

Victoria - posted on 07/02/2012

The accounts in the bible are not stories about characters, but the word of truth that God has sent forth to enlighten us & lead us on the path to righteousness.

God said that the husband is the head of the household, this doesn't negate or belittle a woman, it is just a fact and yet with this fact in place all the way through scripture we see wonder female leaders. If a woman has been called into leadership by God she should fully walk in her calling, God speaks that in the last days he will pour his spirit out on men & women, young & old alike. I believe feminism is out of context in a Christian marriage, but so is machoism. A love husband has nothing to prove if he is living a life for God he is already proving is faith genuine & this will be evident in roles as husband & father. If you are both fully submitted to Gods order, you won't mind you hubby being your head & he likewise will be happy to support you in all that God has called you too.

My hubby is a Pastor.....as am I, God uses us both in our individual ministries, but he also uses us both together, in joint ministry. I don't believe there are female ministers because men aren't stepping up, I do believe that God calls men & women alike, he will use them individually & together in partnership ministry, he uses older people & younger people as he wants to reach everyone with salvation & mature those who are already saved, as it would be useless to have a bunch of immature baby Christian.

I praise God for my husband & his ministry & I KNOW he praise God form me & my ministry.

Pastor Victoria MacPherson

Carla - posted on 07/02/2012

Lika, I would be very careful about watching 'Bible' programs on Discovery or Nat Geo. According to one of their 'revelations' the Flood didn't actually flood the entire earth, just the portion of Middle East where the civilization started out. That's NOT what the Bible says! Worldly people have been trying to dispel the Bible for years, so they don't have to obey what It says. They are like little children who cover their eyes and think everything's gone away. You also say in #6, 'Or as the Bible puts it, Man, then Woman was an after thought because Adam was lonely?' And, the Bible was NOT written with men superior. ALL are equal in God's eyes, it's just that the man is accountable for the well-being of his wife and children. MAN has taken God's good Word and twisted it into women being chattel.

Whether we like what is in the Bible or not, it is there for a reason. God has ordained Life according as how HE pleases, and that was with Man as the head. He also says, over and over, get wisdom. With Wisdom, we understand, as much as our puny, human brains can, that God's ways are always better than ours, and if we just obey, our lives are blessed.

God bless, all

Lika - posted on 07/02/2012

Well, you know, sexism against women still exist today, even in groups that don't believe in religion. What about the fact that the porn and the whole entire adult entertainment is full of stuff that puts women as sex objects, and second class citizens, and tell that women want to be raped? yes, that's TODAY, not the Biblical times.

Don't forget that there was Judge Deborah in the Bible, as well as Ruth. How about Esther, the girl who became queen?

And if you want to know more, here is how Mary Magdalene, who many male Christians paint as the former prostitute, which she wasn't, please view the full story of how she really was Jesus' right hand woman, and the leader of the disciples (which may have made some men angry that a woman was placed above him):
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-ar...

There was a show on Discovery channel that dealt with the fact that there is more to the story. I have the DVD, and can't seem to find it listed in the list at Discovery. I may try to upload it.

Anyway, I truly believe that some of these stories, while yes, written by the view point of men being superior, shows how NOT to treat women. Anyone who thinks women are second rate is just crazy, imo, and well, I'm having a difficult time that God created in pairs until the end.
1) God created Light and Darkness - Day & Night.
2) God separated the Heaven from Earth.
3) God separated Land and Sea, and also created vegetation (by 2's to cross pollinate).
4) God created a greater light (Sun) and lesser light (Moon & Stars) to govern the day/night, and also the seasons.
5) God created the living critters, from flying birds to mammals, to live in the air and such, male and female to reproduce in their assigned habitat.
6) God created man and woman. Or as the Bible puts it, Man, then Woman was an after thought because Adam was lonely?

Okay, so what's up with that? Either God isn't perfect, or, the men were jealous that women are equal, so it got written that way...

I also think that the phrase "The man is the head of the wife" is very misleading, and people take it the wrong way... The reason why he's the head of the household, is the fact that in "normal" circumstances, the man has been the bread winner of the family, and the woman as the head of the home and children. They're two different roles, that men make more money, so he is supposed to financially keep his family stable, while the wife keeps the home stable. You cannot say that one is the head of the other, nor one less important. I've never seen a man be a woman's head, that would look quite funny, wouldn't it?

Women are considered equal to men under God, and just serves different roles. Does this mean that there are no exceptions? Of course they are. I think it's ridiculous that one is supposed to be owned by a man. So my father was very abusive. Had my mother stayed with him, I may not have lived past my childhood. So she divorced. She remarried an illiterate drunk. Had it not been for me, at the ripe old age of 13, we may not have had proper groceries because he couldn't help. Then when I was 19, she remarried again, to a pastor. I was already grown, and I'm supposed to be his subservient? Nope, don't think so.

Back in 1977, when my mother came back to her hometown, and she applied for a library card, she asked if it was okay with her husband. After finding out she is divorced and her ex is in Japan, she had to get her father's permission to get a library card. 30 years old, and she needs permission from a man? What if he ad passed away? Now women can't even read, because of it? A woman is a second class citizen? Since then, it's been changed so any adult get one.

I also think that the term "feminism" gets a bad rap. What is wrong with being equal under the law, government, or religion? We are all equally children of God, and as the vessel that bears children, as per God's orders, the man I am with WILL respect me as his wife, or he can go somewhere else. PERIOD. Any man who acts as if motherhood is less than money, can also take a hike.

Cyndel - posted on 06/24/2012

Women were much better protected in the bible then they are now.
A man couldn't simply have a 'one night stand' and walk away leaving her broken hearted, wondering, waiting, and according to the bible and culture...unmarryable. No, once it was found out that man was forced to marry his one night stand, pay the full virgin bride price, and could not divorce her. If a woman was forcibly raped then the man paid the virgin price and was stoned to death. In most places in the bible rape has nothing to do with consent but rather if the sexual contact was legal or not, which is why some rapists were forced to marry and take care of his 'victim', she was just as active in the act as he; and some were stoned to death.

As for Sarah, Rebecca, and Dinah, the men God gave the responsibility to protect these women royally screwed up. Abraham didn't protect his wife and have faith in God, oh and don't feel sorry for Hagar, she would have seen Abraham taking her to bed as a step up, she went from serventhood to a step below the wife of the powerful man, and she bore his first son, it says in the bible that she was hoping that the birth of Ishmael would cause Abraham to push Sarah aside and put Hagar up as his first wife with all the status and privileges.
Isaac made a lot of the same mistakes his dad did, only he saw the love between his parents and remand faithful to his wife.
Jacob didn't protect his daughter, the bible says that Dinah was accustomed to going into the city alone. Which meant that Jacob allowed her to go to a pagan city without the protection of one of her brothers with her...not a very loving or attentive father. The result, Dinah was raped...I've heard great arguments for it being forced as well as it being consensual, I don't know and honestly it doesn't matter, what matters is Jacob didn't protect his daughter, and when she was taken advantage of he left his sons to pick up the pieces, they did a crappy job, and they bear the consequence of being cut off from inheritance (rightly so but Jacob screwed up first by not 'man'ing up and taking care of the situation that he did nothing to prevent).
God provides great guides to fully protect women, and men fail. It is the story of the bible.

Carla - posted on 06/23/2012

Praying for you both, Seth.

Seth - posted on 06/23/2012

Thank you so much! You give me hope! Please pray that she recieves Gods forgiveness based on Christ and not her performance in her church. I have much mor to say but believe prayer is best route. God has to open her eyes. 20 years I knew the gospel but still doubted Gods love, when I realized God was satisfied with the blood of His son, who was I to argue the light came on. Thanx again

Carla - posted on 06/23/2012

Seth, although it's a bit unorthodox, we welcome you! As a person who has bucked the system and been unorthodox myself, who's to judge you ;)

If you go through our posts, you will find a thread from a woman who's child suffers from bi-polar, and you will find the ladies who posted sympathetic and encouraging. And, from a person who was diagnosed bi-polar, but was actually just terribly depressed and lost, I can tell you Jesus is the answer. I don't know if your wife is truly saved, but I had lived my life 'on the fringe'--just enough religion to make myself miserable. Once I had lost everything I had, I got on my face and dedicated myself, body and soul, to Jesus. No 'religion', just Jesus. The healing has been nothing short of miraculous! My body is still damaged, but my mind is clear and my heart sings.

Praying you find the help you are looking for, God bless.

Seth - posted on 06/23/2012

If you check my bio, you'll see that I'm 57 year old man married to a 54 year old korean wife. I have 5 daughters and 6 grandkids. I have come to this web site as I need your HELP! 28 years married to a bipolar (classic manac depresive) and I love her very much! Bottom line is, in our marrage I believe we represent the marrage of the chuch and Christ. After 2nd attempted suicide's I was ready to quit, but the Holy spirit brought many scriptures to mind immediatly. Most of all that Christ gave His very life for His wife (the church). 10 years later she's doing better and I've learned how much I need her insite or sixth sense. I hope you won't boot me from the group cause I want to be a better husband and grand father than I was with my own kids. I need womens point of view and expecially christian moms. If I've crossed a line I beg your pardon, and will but out. I hope you will allow me to Keep learning from your sharing.

Carla - posted on 06/23/2012

Yes, Kaitlin, husband and wife ARE one in Christ, however, there is a hierarchy to everything. God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, the Holy Spirit is the Power. God receives glory from Jesus, and the Holy Spirit glorifies both. They have one driving goal--to bring humans to the saving grace They have to offer. The hierarchy of a family is the same--God is the head, then the husband. Like I said, I didn't make the rules, I just follow them. Husbands are responsible for the family, and will receive either punishment or reward, depending on how he has handled things. Yes, we all answer for our own sins, but it is the husband's duty to make SURE the family is on the right track. There is no 'king of the castle', he is, in essence, the servant. He serves the Father, to carry out His mission of bringing the entire family to Christ. If people could understand this concept, I don't think there would be so much feminist talk, because there wouldn't be this constant power struggle going on.

Having been a mail carrier for 15 years, I can tell you for a fact, that if I had it to go over again, I would never have taken on that role. Our jobs were gender-neutral. It didn't matter if you were 100 pounds or 300, you still have to be able to carry 70 pound parcels, still walk 14 mile routes, run from dogs, etc. My friend and I were both small boned, and doing this job over the years literally pulled her shoulder from it's socket to where she was in constant pain, I fell and damaged my back, then carpal tunnel, then snapped a tendon (all in about 6 months time), then fibromyalgia set in, degenerative disks, and I am the wreck I am today. I thought 'I can do this job!', but found out the hard way I really couldn't. I was very good at it, I get along well with most people, but the job wasn't good for me. But if they told women they couldn't do the job, the women would revolt. Sometimes rules are made for our own good, but we just can't see it. Stress and worry aren't good for a woman--we weren't made to carry that. I think that's why women suffer so much more from fibromyalgia and other stress-related maladies. I know I'm going to take a hit for this, but this is what I believe.

I don't know what else to say, except God gives us rules, it is not our job to try to dissect them, it's just our job to obey.

God bless

Kaitlin - posted on 06/22/2012

two things jump to my mind- one, 'feminism' is a term that today's society totally ruins- being truly, originally, and entirely feminist is not today's version of a feminist. Feminism is about entirely embracing what it means to be a woman, not putting our worth equal to or above a man's worth, but embracing the unique aspects that make females what they are, and seeing the partnership (yin/yang) to males. Two- to comments below, I've always been taught that yes, a woman submits to her husband, but the whole passage is a more complete picture- the man and woman are ONE, united. A true man of God is in an EQUAL relationship/partnership. One reason that passage, and others, are in there, is because at that time, women were not educated outside the home, could not read, and had questions but were encouraged to ask/discuss matters with their husbands privately, not in public (or in the middle of church). Does that make sense?

Carla - posted on 06/22/2012

I think you missed my point, Angela. Unmarried women are subject to their fathers until they are married, then are under their husband. I don't claim to know everything on the subject, and since I wasn't there when God gave these commands (I was very young then and wasn't paying attention ;)) I can't totally tell you the why's behind this. When we read the story of Eve being deceived by Satan, I don't think we 'get' what was involved. Eve was deceived--and I believe this was because of the emotional makeup of women. She saw a pretty fruit, and therefore wanted it. She listened to Satan's dialogue and felt she was entitled to eat it, even if God told her not to. Adam was standing right beside her during all this--he didn't stop her. I wonder why? Maybe they had just been through something similar to this, and Adam knew once Eve wanted something, she was going to get it, one way or the other. Whatever the reason, God punished them both. Quite personally, I would much rather be under a man's authority and have a nice, easy childbirth--but I digress.

My husband can see trouble coming where I can't always. He warned me about the first church we were going to, that something wasn't quite right. He left and ended up backsliding, but I remained in the church, smug in my decision to stay, while he left the church. Oh, what misery I could have saved myself if only I would have listened! Men use logic and rationalization, where women are more emotion-driven. I believe this is why God, even though BOTH Adam and Eve messed up, Adam was given the authority. But, if we think men have it so good, let us remember that God holds husbands/fathers responsible for his family's physical, mental and spiritual well being. HE is the one that's going to stand before God and give answer as to why his family either sank or swam. And, I certainly am glad that I am not the one who has to shoulder this responsibility! I got enough troubles of my own!

Angela, sweetheart, I find it sad that you put your worth in material and financial terms. I know many, many people, who although financially and materially successful, have horrible marriages and relationships with their children. Surely, surely there is more to you than what you earn, what your job is? If we use your yardstick for success, I am a complete failure. I can't work, can't keep house like I used to, I can't participate in the activities we once loved--traveling, biking, golfing, bowling. To the world's eye, I am a burden to society, and therefore of less worth. I can only hope our Heavenly Father sees me--sees my heart, knows how I long to work for him, how I would LOVE to be able to go on the missions field to help the poor and oppressed.

@Stella--yes, my hubby is wonderful---now ;) You have NO idea what we have gone through in our 40 years of marriage! It was ugly with brief moments of bliss. God was so gracious to us though! He brought us through all that into a marriage that I had longed for all my life. I know the struggles of being a single mom, honey, and I applaud you for doing the hard work of being both mom and dad. You are absolutely correct, Jesus is your husband and your child's father. And yes, men just LOVE the title of head of the household, but haven't got a clue as to what that actually means. Men of God are to love their wives as their own body. His needs come AFTER his wife and children. He is to be on his knees continually praying for wisdom to teach and act out the love of God for his family so they will come to naturally want to accept Jesus when they are of the age. This man of God, if done correctly, puts the Proverbs 31 woman to shame. God told Adam he would work by the sweat of his brow til he dropped dead, ALONG with all this responsibility for his family!

And, finally, I believe a LOT of the OT was written to let us know the patriarchs were human, with human failings, but God was with them anyway, because they were trying as best they could. Look at Abraham--he went from prince of Egypt to a vagabond, because he 'just knew' there was something more out there. The one thing he longed for, a son, was denied him, so he, as many of us do, try to manipulate the situation God had told him would come. He didn't want to wait. He thought he was too old. He thought Sarah was too old. Let's face it--he didn't think God was big enough to do what He had promised! But, in God's own time, He brought Isaac to them. This strengthened Abraham's faith, and it continued to grow, because, when he was commanded to offer Isaac up on the offering altar, he didn't quibble, he obeyed. He knew in his heart that God NOW could do what humans think is impossible. And God backed him up. A ram was brought in the nick of time, and Isaac and Abraham went home, arm in arm.

No one is born with mind-blowing faith. This is something that is cultivated through our trials and sorrows of life. I knew OF God when I was young, and loved with what I knew at the time, but as I have gotten older, I KNOW God, and trust Him implicitly. If He tells me to be under the authority of my husband, I know it's for my own good, and I listen. This is all I know, and all I can tell you.

God bless, all

Lakota - posted on 06/22/2012

This is totally off the subject, but, Carla I love to read your posts. Your husband sounds wonderful and it is nice to know that there are good men out there that will take the responsibility as the head of the household. I am a single mom for almost 7 years now, head of my household, and the person who tries to strengthen my son's spiritual walk. I have dated a couple of times for a very short while. The men I have met - including my ex - and some husbands of my friends like the title "head of the household" and that's about it. I have been told by many married Christian women that I couldn't possible raise my son on my own without a man showing him how to be a good Christian man. I always got a kick out of telling them that God was the "man" in our house showing him how to be a good Christian man. No, he couldn't throw the football, but, I can!

Angela - posted on 06/22/2012

So it's perfectly OK for unmarried/single./divorced/widowed women to preach etc ... And to be the boss of men, say in an employment situation? Are only married women subject to their own menfolk?

And although it's reassuring that there's historical evidence outside of the Bible that women of those times were valued, how sad that the examples in the Old Testament - outlining the lives of our Patriarchs, gives such a poor image!

I work in an industry that is female-dominated - there are a few men of course but it's mainly women. At my husband's workplace it's mainly men.

My previous work involved duties of a technical nature and it was very heartening to have men phoning in and asking for me by name because even though they'd never spoken to me before - they'd had my name given to them by a friend who'd say I was the best person to ask for! When you can advise men in a technical capacity and they listen respectfully and take on board what you have to say you just know this is a breakthrough! I feel sad to see girls in some cultures get married very young and then ..... nothing! You wonder what they went to college for! I get a lot of support from my husband both in my current job and in my previous one - he's just a phone call away and he's really helped me achieve excellence in so many different ways.

He says I don't need to work as he probably earns enough for both of us but he doesn't insist that I give up my job (nor does he demand I go out to work!). He appreciates the fulfilment I get from my job and leaves the choice to me. He would support me totally should I decide to quit my job, yet if I was fired and it was unfair dismissal, he'd be my biggest ally in addressing my rights.

I will always be a feminist as I feel money and material freedom is what binds a person to another upon whom they may become dependent. To give an example - children and parents. Some parents will not allow their teenage children to get part-time employment - they want their only source of income to come from THEM! I had this as a young person - I was allowed to take a job - one they approved of. Many jobs I had the chance of were veto'd by my parents - mainly because they thought the work was "beneath" me! This continued after I left full-time education when I was looking for full-time work - I was on benefit (which they didn't like me to claim!) but quite a few jobs I had the chance of I was unable to apply for due to parental restrictions. As a result, I spent a large part of my adult life without gainful employment. The more prestigious jobs (for which I had qualifications, training etc ...) - the ones my parents "approved of" were out of my reach - after all, who wants to employ anyone who hasn't worked for years?

The pattern continued after I got married because my first husband (long-term unemployed himself) would not let me take jobs I'd been offered as it would have affected his own entitlement to welfare benefits. We split after a few years and by the time I got work, he was married to his next wife. he was still horrified to hear I had work though, LOL!!

I attribute my innocence and lack of worldliness (at least as far as the world of employment goes) to the fact I was not allowed to grow and be my own person - and take on the work that was offered to me. The husband I have now is happy to support me in being the person I want to be.

My daughter graduated from University a few months ago. She has a really good job. She gets married in a few weeks' time. I really hope she keeps her job.

Carla - posted on 06/22/2012

Angela, if you go to this website (http://halakhah.com/) you can read the writings of the rabbis and scribes from the time the Israelites were in exile in Babylon. I learned a lot from reading them. Women were to be treated like a pearl of great price. The Lord taught these men women are treasures, and children are a reward of the righteous. Happy is the man who's quiver is full of them (children).



I personally struggled with women ministers for a long time. But, over the years, I have seen men abdicating their God-given roles over to women, for the sake of peace or laziness. These are the End Times. The Word has GOT to be spread. So the women God calls during this time are covered, as long as their final authority is under their husband. No matter how we try to manipulate things, men are still the head of the household, according to God. IF a woman has been called, she has to be extremely careful not to get the big head and think she can now take over ALL that the man was given. Also, I feel a lot of women are power-hungry, and want to control all in her reach. A woman called has got to constantly maintain a meek spirit, revering her husband as the spiritual head. I personally pray men will wake up and take their rightful place of leadership, as God ordained.



If you recall, Aquila and Priscilla ministered together, there was Phoebe and a lot of women workers mentioned by Paul.



I USED to be a feminist. I am no longer. I am very happy with my husband being the head of our house. God is his head, he is mine, we are our children's. This is as God planned, and when we all work within the confines He gave us, our homes are peaceful. My husband will be asked by God at the Great White Throne Judgment how he led his family, what he did to strengthen our spiritual walk, how he cared for us, and will be held accountable, along with us, as we have free will, for the success or failure of our lives.



God bless