How to talk to someone about my beliefs in homosexuality

Victoria - posted on 03/10/2012

This thread seems to be getting off topic.



A question was asked, not about our views on the gay choice & lifestyle, but on what to do when people consider you a hater, because you believe what the scriptures say about this abomination.



The scripture that comes to me is Matt 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."



1Co 5:12-13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."



If a person is of the world, don't be concerned with their lifestyle, if they are claiming to be of Christ, then we should show them what the word of God says about it, if they choose not to listen, then don't associate with them.



Gods word is truth & we need to stand firm & not compromise it for anything.



Thanks everyone for your input, due to how off topic this has gotten, and not wanting it to turn into a debate, I am now closing this thread.

Angela - posted on 03/10/2012

Great, thought-provoking post there Jamie Lynn. Too much cherry-picking from the Bible going on amongst Christians. Selective choice of which scriptures to believe in and live by, definitely.



Carla's absolutely RIGHT when she says "We either believe and embrace ALL that is in the Bible, or we don't, it is each person's choice."



Anyone who disapproves of gay people or their ways does have the right feel this way of course. We all have free will. I can even identify with the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" philosophy - it's a GOOD philosophy! We may not agree on what we regard as a sin but I would definitely agree with "love the sinner, hate the sin."



However for people to persist in using the word "lifestyle" (Lorraine Frank), or the word "choice" (Keha Ireland) after what I have said in my own, earlier post is SO demeaning to the gay community!



Would you use the word "lifestyle" to describe the special circumstances and adjustments a disabled person has in their own life? They don't have a choice, either!



Being gay is NOT a lifestyle, it's a fact. Just like my own heterosexuality is a fact!



What I hate most is something I may be occasionally guilty of myself. This is what happens in a situation where someone is asked to talk about somebody else:



Describe "A" (a heterosexual individual) .... and a description of this person's physical appearance followed by their interests, their job, their friends, family & community, their religious beliefs, personal values and the area where they live will usually be given. No mention of their sexuality .....



Describe "B" (a gay man) ..... and the very first identifying way to describe this person - the opening statement made is "He's gay ...."



Like a person's sexual identity/sexuality is only a big deal if they're NOT heterosexual.



Sad ............

Lorraine - posted on 03/10/2012

You see the world will never understand us they just can not get how you can totally be against things people do and still have respect and love for the person.

If the situation arrive i will state what i belive and also state the fact that i do not hate them i just do not argree with there life style and if whom i am talking to do not understand i will leave it right there and have no more comments.

Jamie - posted on 03/09/2012

My problem with keeping silent on this issue is seeing so many of my friends get hurt by people claiming to be Christians. Christians that claim they know exactly the correct interpretation of biblical texts when in fact they have done no actual scholarly/historical research on the verses that are causing so much controversy. And it is turning people away from Jesus.



We need to learn not to by cherry-picking Christians:



"Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works." (1 Timothy 2:9-10)





"The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)





"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people."(Leviticus 20:18)



"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)



"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)



"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)



"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)



I suppose if you really believe all of the above in the literal context then it would make sense to also believe this literally as well (again original text does not translate as well in English):



"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

Carla - posted on 03/09/2012

I Corinthians 6:9-10 says: 'Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.' Romans 1:27: 'And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves the recompense of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient---'



We either believe and embrace ALL that is in the Bible, or we don't, it is each person's choice. God is Love, but God hates sin. Sin is from Satan, and we are to avoid it, ALL of it. Gossiping, theft, anger, adultery, fear--all these separate us from a close relationship with the Lord.



My advice stands, if the people you are discussing this with don't agree with your opinion, drop it.



God bless

Angela - posted on 03/09/2012

Interesting thread on another section in Circle of Mums, you'll find it here:



http://www.circleofmoms.com/debating-mum...



It gives some interesting insights into the Gay/Christian debate!



I'm with Jamie Lynn on this - we each need to look at our OWN sins and our OWN relationship with the Lord.

Keha - posted on 03/09/2012

In just that same manner! Just let them know how you fell. I have a niece who is gay and she thoght that I hated her but I dont and I had to sit her down and just let her know that I love her and I dont care for her choice but I still love her!!!

Jamie - posted on 03/09/2012

hmmm.... Calling someone "not a true Christian" because they don't believe in your apologetics? It is no wonder people consider Christians judgemental. That is not your judgement to make. It is God's. Period.



I think that is the point Angela was trying to make. Separating homosexuality and comparing it to alcoholism makes me so sad for both parties. Hearing another commenter comment negatively on her gay brother and alcoholic sister- really? Don't people realize how separatist that sounds?

And we are really asking ourselves why people are so against Christianity? It is US! WE are the problem.



The only thing I know to advise people on is to concentrate on your own sin, own struggles. How can you be an expert on a subject that you have no personal experience with? Because you took a literal interpretation of an ancient text that was translated into your own language? Because your pastor told you so? No, this is a personal relationship, we need to put in the work.

Miriam - posted on 03/09/2012

Wow Kelly,couldn't have said it better myself!!!!

Kelsey - posted on 03/08/2012

Thank you Kelly...your words are helpful.

Kelly - posted on 03/08/2012

Kelsey you just have to realize that this is an arguement you will not win. You just ignore them and shrug it off if they call it "hate". This will continue (NO MATTER what you do or say) and you do not have to justify yourself. Most do not want to hear it anyways. They either accept the Bible as truth or they are not true Christians and we cannot force them, no more than they can coerce you to renounce your Christianity. You will get many comments not really addressing your actual question. You will get more arguments against the Bible and other arguments justifying behavior and that not championing the behavior is somehow prejudice and hateful. Many, who all of a sudden will know far more of whats in the Bible (according to them), and use it to argue back. We should be loving and nonjudgemental (they love these). Well Jesus talks a whole lot about moral character and how we are supposed to live our lives. He did not say in the Bible go ahead and live according your wishes and desires. He told the prostitute at the well "go and sin no more". I guess he must have had his "unloving" moments too. if taking a stand for moral character is somehow "hateful". The Bible is clear on the behavior in more than 1/2 dozen scriptures both new and old testament. I have never seen true Christians treat gays unkindly we just disagree. We think the lifestyle choice is wrong. Yes behavior is a choice of actions. Even if for arguments sake they say they are born that way. Well then they probably embrace pedophilia too, drunkness, psycopaths, and all the other things that go wrong in the womb or in nature. We don't celebrate a person prone to anger and say "you were born that way" go be yourself. It is that side that wants a war because we believe the bahavior is wrong and feel the need to justify it. We will continue to see it as sin unless Jesus returns to earth and says he changes his mind on that one. Bottem line you just got to get over it. Speak up respectfully and ignore the "hate" comments. Develop a thicker skin : )

Miriam - posted on 03/08/2012

I think it is a choice because the Bible does say that God created man and woman, it doesnt say he made them confused about what they were! I do not feel uncomfortable around gay people, I feel uncomfortable when they talk about what they do! I also feel uncomfortable when someone smokes or curses around me.. I also never let a pastor, or scholar tell me how to feel or what to believe, I think that the relationship I have with God and through his holy spirit I get conviction on whats right and wrong FOR ME. not necessarily for others but for me.

Kelsey - posted on 03/08/2012

I'm not condeming anyone. I have opinions on a lot of things, but it seems when I voice this one, it blows up. I believe its wrong. I respect them and I accept them. I have worked with them in the past and found fondness for most of them. I just wanted to know why do some think because I disagree with their lifestyle (yes, I believe it s a choice also) that I hate them? My dad is an alcoholic, I disagree, but I don't hate him. I disagree with living w/ someone and not being married, but I don't hate them. It is simply my opinion, but when expressed, some turnaround and hate me for it.

Since my question was not aimed to start a debate on homosexuality, maybe I should have asked a broader question. But I realize that people will always disagree with every single one of opinions and I have to learn to be okay with it.

Jamie - posted on 03/07/2012

Yes, Angela-



You are speaking my language.



I've also noticed on here that people keep referring to lying and stealing- as if it were akin with homosexuality.



I'd like to point out that the ten commandments never mentioned homosexuality. Also, Jesus never once spoke about it.



Of course, all of this will be discussed if and when some of you decide to deeply research this topic. You may still have the same conclusion you had before, but there is no greater feeling than to really go to the root of God's word and discuss it with Christ-based scholars. If nothing else, you will have a stronger argument to back up your thoughts.

Angela - posted on 03/07/2012

Words like "choice" and "lifestyle" are pretty dreadful when used in this context.



Being gay is a FACT - it's never a choice. If it were a choice, knowing the opposition and prejudice they face, wouldn't they choose to be heterosexual? I'm heterosexual - I didn't CHOOSE to be heterosexual! I just AM that way!



And "lifestyle" is a pretty dreadful word as well - it implies choice. Is living a life where you love and live with the person you're attracted to a lifestyle? Do we call it a lifestyle when straight people live like this?



"Hate" is a word with pretty broad meanings when used in this context, by the way. Any implication that gay couples are not entitled to the same privileges as straight couples is broadly classified as hate. Ask yourself these questions:



Is it OK for a gay couple to treat one another with light affection in a public setting? Is it OK for a straight couple to do this?



Should a gay couple be able to make mirror wills as a straight couple can?



Is money given to a charity from a gay person unacceptable? Should a church charity refuse & return the money on the premise that the Church feels it's compromising itself?



Think about it!



I don't think they (the gay community) "force" anyone to accept their behaviour! I think they just wish to live and let live.



In this day and age (and certainly more frequently years ago) there are still gay individuals who are terrified of being outed. They marry people of the opposite sex and raise children. Fortunately this happens less nowadays but it still happens. They go to their graves without any other individual knowing that they're actually homosexual. Their spouse may possibly suspect, but no-one else. Now this is essentially living a lie. Is this, realistically, less of a sin than just living openly as a gay person who readily admits their homosexuality (either with or without a partner)?



I personally think it's a pretty shocking sin to try and live as a straight, heterosexual person when you're actually gay. I'd be devastated if my husband suddenly announced he was gay (he's not!) but this has happened to people I know of. A gay person has no right marrying someone of the opposite sex who is straight.



And the fact remains that gay people have married straight people and had children with them because they were so frightened of Society's disapproval and hatred.



That's a nasty indictment for Society in general (not just the Christian Church or any religious groups).

Kelly - posted on 03/07/2012

Carla said it very well. Also using the "hate" term is just a tool in their agenda. Yes they do have an agenda to normalize the behavior in society and force everyone to embrace it. Heck the agenda has even been documented by them/leaders. It wouldn't be a topic for discussion if it wasn't a battle in politics and the public arena but it has become so. No I don't hate them. I don't hate anyone. However do not force me to embrace your lifestyle which I believe to be a sin. I will not say their behavior is ok. Yes their choice to live as they like but I think what angers many of them most is that they have no control over how we feel about it. There are many people's behaviors I disagree with some are personal choices, some are moral choices and some are political choices. I will not shy away from a comment if I'm asked. I will speak respectfully. If someone wants help then I will help them. However there is nothing you can do about their "hate" comments. It will continue. It is false (in most situations) but that doesn't make their comment valid. You just ignore it and continue to fight the good fight for what is right. I do have a gay brother so I have to deal with this on a close level. He knows exactly what I think of the lifestyle and we don't dicuss it. He refused to talk to me for 5 years and most of the rest of the family. I was never rude to him. I love him. Definitely hate the behavior altho I don't remind him of it nor does the discussion actually even come up. He does post pro-gay stuff and anti-Christian comments weekly on FB and I just ignore them and don't let him bait me. I also have an alcoholic sister. Don't like that behavior anymore than my brothers. I don't "hate" her either.

Angela - posted on 03/07/2012

Jamie Lynn’s response suggesting that it would be helpful to really research the biblical references to homosexuality is very wise. Especially when she goes on to say that it should not just be in the English text, but also in the native tongue. Most importantly though to also find two Christian scholars with opposing views on homosexuality and really get in depth as to why they believe - this is at the very heart of this difficult matter.



Jamie Lynn has said (and done so very eloquently) exactly what I was wanting to say in my earlier posts.



We’re normal Christians who tend to believe what we’re told to believe by more experienced or “professional” Christians. This includes their interpretation of the Bible and their influence on our own interpretation of the Bible. However I doubt that most Pastors & Reverends have the education in ancient languages (plus appropriate qualifications).



Many of them became qualified by going to a “Bible College” – a seat of learning usually run by a certain denomination! So THEY were taught how to interpret scriptures – in line with their Church’s own interpretation! Intricate knowledge of the structure and grammar of the original tongues of the Bible is very unlikely. Yes, they were probably taught a few key words!



It is not only possible but also very likely to find learned & experienced Christian scholars with opposing views. In fact I would say that it’s entirely possible to find learned Christians with a variety of different views – all on this same topic! There have been books written on this topic and from both sides of the debate. Both sides can back their arguments up effectively from scripture. The subtle nuances in language and grammar (only detectable from knowledge of the original tongues of the Bible) can show that things are never black and white. It’s also extremely easy for either side to produce an entirely credible argument for their own side only.



And yes, I do think it’s rather “smug” to denounce homosexuality from a religious standpoint when you have the fortune to be heterosexual, happily & legally married to someone you love who also loves you. Talk is indeed “cheap” if you’ve never been put to the test!



Most of us will universally agree that cheating, stealing, lying, murder, violence and adultery are wrong. But homosexuality is somehow different. It’s the only “sin” where the opposing moralists dictate how and who we love. Other sins are only denounced for their selfishness in targeting other individuals, but labelling homosexuality as a “sin” when two consenting adults are sharing their love with one another either physically or emotionally seems a step too far.



And why on Earth would any straight person feel uncomfortable in the company of a gay person? Are you frightened it’s “catching”? How ridiculous! Or are you frightened a same-sex gay person might fancy you? Equally ridiculous! You surely don’t imagine every opposite-sex straight person you meet fancies you, so why should gay people be any different? You should be so lucky – LOL!!

Miriam - posted on 03/07/2012

Agree, we are all sinner, but we are also all trying to live for God. and yes we are saved by his grace not by anyone else. so No we should not condemn , but should we agree and okay what theyre doing that the Bible so clearly states as wrong?

Jamie - posted on 03/07/2012

If you have never had attraction to the opposite sex, then you should probably avoid speaking about it altogether.



The Bible is important to all of us, but our relationship with God is very personal. So is sin.



If you are truly interested in the topic of homosexuality for your own knowledge I would compel you to really research the biblical references to homosexuality. Not just in the English text, but also in the native tongue. I would also suggest finding two Christian scholars with opposing views on homosexuality and really get in depth as to why they believe this.

Sarah - posted on 03/07/2012

I think it's helpful to remember that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I'm no less of a sinner because I'm in a straight marriage relationship. If I gossip, lose my temper or behave selfishly, that is sinful just as much as anything else. In fact those things are potentially more damaging to the community of God's people than homosexuality.

Angela - posted on 03/07/2012

Miriam, I NEVER feel uncomfortable around gay people! But I do feel uncomfortable around drunkards - especially when they talk nonsense and try to draw you into their conversations.



Nobody on this earth, gay, straight, saint, sinner, Christian or unbeliever is going to "take me to Heaven". I'm getting to Heaven by God's grace through my faith in his Son's sacrifice - not through works, or through rejecting/accepting other human beings and their diverse sexualities, habits or behaviours.



My salvation is not threatened by showing a little kindness, understanding and tolerance to people who are different from me in various ways.



It's not threatened by sometimes feeling uncomfortable when in the company of people who are "different" either.



God bless everyone!

Miriam - posted on 03/07/2012

I completely understand you Kelsey. I do not feel comfortable around gay people, because I know how wrong it is in God's eyes!! I also feel that way around alcoholics and druggies!! I do talk to them and treat them with respect, but I dont agree withe their actions! and I am very outspoken so I do let people know how I feel, people arent always happy with my words, but they are not the ones that will take me to heaven so oh well!!!

Angela - posted on 03/07/2012

I think the easiest way is probably to avoid talking about it altogether. Honestly!



I often comment on these Christian forums that I have no issue with gay couples, gay marriage. having gay friends etc ... and I don't! Ieven attended the engagement party of a gay couple once (had a wonderful time, LOL). But someone actually complained about me expressing myself in this way on here once.



It's very easy to criticise gay people from the very nice comfort zone of being a straight person who is legally married to someone they love and are loved by - and moreover are enjoying a lovelife & a sexlife within the recommended parameters of Biblical guidance. As in "I'm all right Jack - but you're a wicked sinner ..."



It's a bit like people who managed to get a really good, interesting, well paid job (often just through knowing the right people) saying that those who are unemployed should get off their backsides and find work!



The other way is simply to say to people:



"I'm a Christian and the Holy Bible tells us that homosexuality is a sin. I appreciate this is easy for me to say as I'm not gay myself. However I DO like a lot of gay people I meet and respect them as human beings just like I'd respect anyone else. Before you condemn me as homophobic, just remember that I didn't write the Bible - I only read it. And it's only fair to say that some Christian scholars interpret the Bible's words on homosexuality differently to others."



It's all in the interpretation - and the situation I believe. I very much doubt that there's a "one size fits all" ruling for this particular area of concern - just like there isn't for a few other posers within our belief system.



Sorry if this offends - it's just my opinion and I'm not going to change it any day soon. Also, there is legislation in the UK about equal opportunities, hate crime, diversity and respect. I've honestly given my own opinions on my own feelings here but I'm not about to break the law either!

Carla - posted on 03/06/2012

Honey, no matter how we try to put it, unbelievers just don't understand. But to me, it's the same as saying you love the sinner, but hate the sin. You can love and care for a person without agreeing with what they do. I guess after you have told whoever you are talking to your view, if they don't get it, just change the subject. I have a gay ex sister-in-law who I love dearly, but that does NOT mean I embrace her lifestyle. She had a partner who was a very sweet loving woman, and we got along fine. Your actions will back up your statement, so just keep living what you say, and eventually, they will get it.



God bless, sweetheart