Infant baptism or believer baptism?

Carla - posted on 04/20/2012

Done, Angela

Angela - posted on 04/20/2012

Is this discussion STILL going on? Have we not flogged this issue to death?

Moderators, is it time to close this thread? No-one's coming up with anything new!

Tiffany - posted on 04/19/2012

Very interesting conversation. It says a lot for the Christian lives that you're each leading. My advice, is to go back to your bibles. Remember, that it is ultimately ones faith that shows who they are in Christ. The bible mentions time and again the access granted to the faithful believer. The baptism is symbolic, as you said, but not a prerequisite- yet we will not be received if we are faithless. So, focus less on the rituals, and more on having a heart for Christ, and you will both reclaim your common ground. :)

Leticia - posted on 04/05/2012

I am saved my son is 4 months old. Until he is the age of accountabiltiy he is covered by the blood and will be going to Heaven if anything happened to him. Until he is old enough to understand he doesn't know.......that is my understanding of the word . Baptism is a picture of salvation so if a baby isn't saved I don't see the need to bapitze them??? they would have to do it again when they get saved. I do believe that Baby Dedication is necessary as well. It's really the parents giving their child back to the Lord for His covering and protection on their lives.

Alyssa - posted on 04/02/2012

I haven't read all of the replies to this, but I could see where the disagreement lies, and the bible is not entirely clear on the topic to be absolutely sure one way or the other. I just think the best thing that you can do is pray, and listen to God, and do what you feel He wants you to do for your children. If you don't feel convicted for getting your child dedicated, rather than fully baptised until they are of age to decide themselves, then I think it is fine. And the opposite is also true. If your conviction is that they should be baptised as a child or infant, than do so. As long as you have prayed about it and waited for an answer (and tried not to bias God's answer based on opinion), then whatever you decide is fine. They are your children, and you obviously want to do God's will here.



I'm not sure if that helps, but with the bible not being completely clear, praying and waiting for an answer is the best you can do.

Carla - posted on 04/02/2012

Amber, like you say, we can agree to disagree. We are Christian here, and should respect each other's beliefs. Although we do not use the book of Mormon, the advice you quoted was sound. We thank you for your encouragement to Laura, and hope you will come visit us often.



God bless, hon

Amber - posted on 04/02/2012

Angela,

i understand that not all people are going to put stock in the book of Mormon... i was just stating it for basis of my feelings of infant baptism. Vicky no one is born with sinful nature all are born with free will to make choices for themselves.we all have a choice in this world to do the right thing or wrong thing.. yes Mormons punish their children when they make wrong choices and help them to understand why it was a wrong choice and make a point to teach children the importance of making right choices in this life.



the only other thing i have to say about this is that they can agree to disagree and should remain friends and live and let live!! everyone is entitled to their own beliefs in this world and i do not want to force my beliefs on anyone just offering my opinion on this i am sorry if my beliefs offend anyone!

God Bless ♥

Hannah - posted on 04/02/2012

This might sound really harsh, but it isn't her choice!

You should still be able to be friends with her even if you don't agree on this. You will never agree with anyone 100 percent of the time. That is not reality. You have to do what is best for your child, and she has to do what is best for hers. Agree to disagree.

Megan - posted on 04/02/2012

Kids and babies are born into this world with a sinful nature, BUT they are not held accountable for their actions until they are at an age where they can understand it for themselves. This age is different for everyone. People with mental disabilities may never come to the age of accountability in God's eyes. I know babies are not intending to sin...lol...neither is a 3 year old even if it " looks like sin" in our eyes. Believer baptism is what is biblical, but I have lot's of friends who baptize their babies and I just pray that the debate never comes up...lol....it's not required for salvation anyway....I just pray that your friend is teaching her kids to love God with their whole hearts and when they get to the age where they understand, that they invite him to be Lord of their lives...because THAT is whats most important! God Bless! :o)

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/01/2012

I was always of the thought that children are born with a sinful nature, that they are born all set up to be sinners' there's no escaping it. But no I never thought the bible indicated that infants were actually committing sins from birth. They lve off of god given instincts and they show no evidence of sin in my opinion. As they gain consciousness to the world, 2-3-4 years, they begin sinning as they choose to do wrong.

Now this also differs with my friend, she believes babies are born sinners and that their actions are natural and instinctual but also are sinful, sort of weaved into their existence.

Subtle differences, and we parent our kids almost identically but I do not feel like my newborn babies are actively sinning.

Now my three year old, yes I see his sinful nature comming out. Choosing to misbehave, enjoying deceit, purposely harming others, etc this is sin. It's natural and age appropriate but it is sin.

My baby crying when I put her down or leave the room is not sinning, she simply needs me to survive and so cries to make sure I don't leave her! She is in instinct mode.

Carla - posted on 04/01/2012

Vicky, I understand what you are saying, but, when a child is born, they are completely without sin. As they grow, their lives revolve around themselves, so they become selfish. It is up to his/her parents to teach them selfishness is wrong. We discipline our children for, let's say picking up something in the store. We have them put it back (the first time), but they still want that, because they ARE still selfish. So they try to hide it, hence it becomes sin. In the Old Testament, the age of accountability is 13, and I think God had it nailed pretty good. Kids do and say whatever comes into their little minds--that's why God gave them parents, so they will teach their children what is right and wrong.



Matthew 18:10 says: '...for I say unto you, that in Heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven.' I do not think Jesus would have said this if children are sinful. Because the world has Satan's influence, we ALL become sinful, and ALL need a Savior. Thank God He loved us enough to send Jesus, and as we enter this week, let's remember the terrible debt they ALL paid, Jesus suffered, but God and the Holy Spirit, and all the angels of Heaven had to watch. We should be forever grateful.



God bless, everyone

Vicky - posted on 04/01/2012

Wow, I am stunned at the theology that has appeared here: all manner of craziness and convenience. The most stunning is how many posts are here claiming that babies are born without sin. How is it that a child is without sin? Do Mormons not punish their children when they lie or steal? If a child is born without sin, how does it get in there? Is is magic? Is there some substance that chases them down and enters in making them sinful? (Perhaps this is the cause of the terrible twos.) Can one hide her child from sin and therefore prevent that child from ever being sinful? What would be the point of the virgin birth, if all of us are born without sin? If anyone of us can be without sin, at any point, why would we need Christ? And why wouldn't we all just kill our children before sin enters in so that they might remain holy?



I've just been studying 2 Corinthians chapter 11, and Paul brought up the deception of Eve in his argument about false teachers. How subtle was the serpents question: Did God really say? Eve was deceived, by a few cunning words, and Adam just stood by and watched. Shall we just stand by and watch - or be politically correct and tolerate - while other Christians are deceived? Your children are sinful, and Jesus died for their sins also. It is the whole of the human race which needed saving, not just the mature among us.

Angela - posted on 04/01/2012

Amber, speaking for myself (others may agree or disagree) I do not place value in the writings of the Book of Mormon. The Bible itself is our yardstick to the Christian life. There are other books by Christian writers that may be of value in examining baptism or any other issue within the faith, but these are written from human viewpoints so occasionally might not be helpful.



However I will concede that infant baptism is unnecessary. Baptism does not wash away sins anyway, it is only symbolic. It is an act of testimony for believers. Only the blood of our Saviour, Jesus Christ, washes away sins.



Baptism of the dead is also unnecessary.

Amber - posted on 03/31/2012

unfortunately there are so many different beliefs on this subject but in truth children are completely innocent since they come from heavenly father and have no need of baptism to "wash away there sins" for they have no sin after being born. Mathew 18:3-6 states 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall ahumble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.... i am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and we believe that children are not held accountable for their actions until the age of 8 and that it is an unnecessary practice of baptizing babies and children who are under the age of accountability also The Lord condemns infant baptism also in Moroni 8 in the book of mormon it states it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children. little achildren need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the bremission of sins. little achildren are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a brespecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

Nataschia - posted on 03/28/2012

The child should be the one to make that dicision when he learns about it and know what it means

Cheryl - posted on 03/27/2012

There is not one example of infant baptism in the New Testament. And as another mom answered, the meaning of the original Greek , for the word baptism is 'to dip or immerse'. Children are free from sin, until they recognize sin. I was 9 years old when I was baptized. I realized, at church camp, that I had sinned. You may just have to agree to disagree. I have had many discussions with friends over this same topic. When we agree to disagree, I consider it a seed planted. You never know how God will fertilize that seed and make it grow.

Diana - posted on 03/27/2012

Believer baptism! The Bible says "Repent and be baptized"

Angela - posted on 03/26/2012

I personally believe in believers' baptism. However I attend a Church of England fellowship where the custom is for infant baptism. Frequently on Sundays our morning service is followed by a baptism service - for one or more babies!



This doesn't bother me at all and I always wish the parents and their babies well.



So if I can go to a Church where this is the tradition (despite my own preference for believers' baptism) I doubt that you & your friend are going to fall out over your differing stances.



It's not like either of you will realistically expect the other person to "convert" to your way of thinking!



Also remember that Martin Luther was actually a Catholic priest to begin with, then he "saw the light" about penances and indulgences and many other aspects of the Catholic faith. So he then founded his own branch of Christianity (as well as spearheading the Reformation). However, it's only to be expected that Luther would retain quite a lot of Catholic traditions.

Margaret - posted on 03/26/2012

Jesus was baptised as an adult. I agree with you baptism is a act of faith showing the world you have been buried to self and risen again with Jesus. This is an individual act but do not let it get between you and your friend. As long as she holds to the tenets of the historic Christian Faith that Jesus is the son of God and that he was born of a virgin and died on the cross for our sins and rose again to be taken to heaven on the 40th day and that the Holy Spirit was sent as a comforter and Guide. That we can go to haven only through faith by Grace and not of our selves.

Do not let it tear you apart.

Allison - posted on 03/25/2012

I believe in infant baptism but if you look at all the Bible versus you won't see infant baptism . Why isn't it written in the Bible (specifically)? Because the whole practice is new!!! There is an a couple of places where the Bible mentions "households." I.E. Lydia in Acts 16 13-15. Because of Lydia's beliefs her whole household was baptized. So therefore Lydia's beliefs can make her whole household (husband, children, babies) whoever makes up the household be baptized. Baptism is an expression of faith by the parent or the child, but when the child gets older I also believe that a person should have a confirmation or dedication to the faith. But, if you don't agree I don't believe your child is destined to hell. Just dedicate your life to follow Christ and raise your child to love your Lord, God and God will be just as pleased. :)

Megan - posted on 03/25/2012

I am with Phillipa on this one.....go to the Bible! It is God's word and that can never be changed! I am a firm believer in this method when it comes to any rules and traditions in the church. Let's be honest, some stuff is based on man made dotrine. There are even a few things in my church(Pentecostal) that I don't practice due to the fact that there isn`t any scripture to back it up(i.e like saying ALL types of dancing is bad). But with that being said, I respect those who do believe it because that is their choice and they aren`t harming anyone in doing so. BUT....I do know scripture pretty well...and I have to say that baptizing infants to get them into God`s family is definitly NOT scriptural!!! Well, not from the Holy Bible anyway!!! Keep in mind that I grew up in an ANglican church and was baptized as a baby, but have been attending a Pentecostal one for 8 years now and was baptized again because of my own free will, so I do know both sides of the story! :o)

Julie - posted on 03/25/2012

I am 53 and have been saved since i was 9. As an adult, since my 20's the churches i have gone to does the baby dedications. If you are that close maybe you are both able to agree to disagree, I understand your feelings on this. I dedicated both of mine, my daughter is almost 20 and my other one would be 26 this next month. She is blessed to be with Jesus, had to have surgery she was born with a hole in her heart. Lutheran faith is similar to what Catholic's do, they are the few that do the christening. I would just sit down with her to explain your beliefs, and not like your are trying to force it on her as she should not try to force her's on you. If you are as close as you say you are, if it were me i would just tell my friend "look i know we may not agree not this even as important as this is to both of us, but i also don't want it to come between us, i love you as a friend too much and agree to disagree if need be, do you really see eye to eye on every single thing, probably not, but i understand as a parent this is something very important to all of us as Moms'. Will pray for you and hope all goes well.

Phillipa - posted on 03/25/2012

Actually, I was not trying to get her to agree with me at all. It's not a matter of what I think, or what she thinks, or even what a particular church believes,but about what the Bible has to say about it. One can believe anything they want to believe but few go to the Word of God to see what God has to say, because in the end, He's the one who introduced it in the first place!

Olivia - posted on 03/24/2012

I agree with you that the important thing is raising your kids to be firmly rooted in their faith, believe in God, love God with all their hearts and love their neighbours as themselves. We all have friends coming from different religion, and the practice in one is not the same as in the other. But at the end of the day we all serve on God. All I can advise you is that if this topic on baptism brings tension in your relationship avoid talking about it. You all have given your opinion, and this is not the time to say whose faith or religion is right or wrong. However you both should focus on raising your kids in a god fearing manner, so that they will know the light "Jesus Christ" and accept him as his or her personal saviour and eventually get baptised. This is not the time to say who is going to go to hell, it is not our job to judge, let's leave that for God.



Thanks,



Olivia

Char - posted on 03/23/2012

I was baptized as a baby then confirmed as a teenager both in a Moravian church. As an adult I chose to publicly confess my faith and be baptized by emersion in my home church which is Baptist. When I had my children, hubby and I chose to dedicate them to the Lord as infants and encourage their faith so they will make the decision to get baptized when they get older. That being said, my sister-in-law who grew up Baptist (my father-in-law is a Baptist minister) chose to move to an Anglican church after her baby was born and christen her there because she felt it was more ritualistic. All this to say, everyone makes their own choices where faith is concerned. My new rule where my friends and family are concerned with the raising of their children is as follows...the important thing is raising your kids to be firmly rooted in their faith, believe in God, love God with all their hearts and love their neighbours as themselves. : )

Olivia - posted on 03/23/2012

The bible states that parents should bring their children to God, and in my understanding it means we should teach them the bible, about God, Jesus Christ, the Holy spirit. What it means to live a godly life. It is our responsibility as parents to bring our children close to God, so that when they grow up they will make their own decision to be baptised through water submerssion. I also know that in some Pentecostal, baby dedication is practiced, while in other churches it is water baptism sprinkled on the child's head. I have read alot of biblical verses, and articles on this topic. I cam to my own conclusion that I have personally dedicated my children to God, even before they were born, and I continue to do so. Personally I don't want to publicly dedicate my children infront of the congregation. But the advise I have for my christian Moms is to bring our children close to God.

Laura Zoey - posted on 03/23/2012

Yeah I know a boy who I used to work with and he came to a shift after he was confirmed theday before and we all talked religion the whole shift and he said stuff like he didn't think heaven and hell were real, he thought god was more a good idea then a real being and he thought the bible was more of guidelines then truth. Made me seriously question the catholic church!

Angela - posted on 03/23/2012

@ Laura ♥♥♥ - yes, it's possible to be an ex-Catholic, I'm one myself BUT .... it's not possible in the eyes of Rome (meaning the Pope and the stance of established Roman Catholic Doctrine). So whatever you, I or a million others may feel, believe or fundamentally KNOW about Catholicism or Christianity generally from Catholic viewpoint (as former Catholics) - if this is at variance to what is said by Rome, then Rome trumps you & me every time, LOL!! It's their religion after all, they are at the head of that Church and they make their own rules! Don't forget, the Pope is apparently infallible on matters of doctrine!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infal...



Actually, although there are a great many "ex-Catholics" I think greater numbers remain "faithful" to Rome because the indoctrination is so thorough and powerful. It takes a lot of soul-searching for a Catholic to be brave enough to leave that Church having heard the full Gospel elsewhere without bits being missed out (or added on). And of course there are those who rebel completely and end up not believing in anything at all.



And "baptismal promises" made by parents and godparents on behalf of infants are made again by the individual in question when they're older at Confirmation. "Older" means anything between about 9 & 14 years old usually. If the child in question has been raised by devout Catholic parents and especially if they attend a Catholic school, they're highly unlikely to refuse to agree to confirmation. Indeed it is the school that puts Confirmation candidates forward. So I don't believe these young people have informed choice or are giving informed consent.



But that's a whole other discussion!

April - posted on 03/21/2012

I've only read some of the canversation here but it sounds to me like you are not interested in views from either side (although I agree with you) but rather how you can get her to agree with you without you telling her she's wrong. It's not going to happen. But then again, you likely won't find anyone that you can agree with about everything. All you can really do is respect each others beliefs and each others right to believe them. If you can't both do that, and continue dwelling on it, I think you're right, your friendship WILL suffer.

Johanna - posted on 03/21/2012

I think that is very important that to keep a good friendship, there must be "respect". No matter what religion we live...we love the same God. So this should no worry you if you really have her respect. About the baptism...I totally agree with you. Children don't know what's going on ,you can teach them over the years how to become a Christian and for that they need to make a decision on their own, when they feel that they are ready to live and love as christians....I was baptized by my parents as soon I was born....as a catholic...when I turned 33 I decided to get Baptized and I go to a Baptist Church that I Love!!! Me and my family serve the Lord , but believe that each of us have the right to decide when ever the time is right.

Phillipa - posted on 03/20/2012

It's a curly one but in matters like this it's not about one's opinion or even what one's church teaches, it's about what the Bible teaches on the subject. When it says 'you and your household" it means everyone from the age of 13 up. NOT those under that age. One needs to understand Jewish culture. Baptism comes after making a decision to ask Jesus into ones' life. This requires one to believe, repent then to be baptized. An infant is not at the age of understanding and reason to be able to do this. Paul's admonition was "Repent and be baptized that you may receive forgiveness for your sins." Three of our four children all asked to be baptized. They understood the reasons for it and so we allowed them to go through the waters of baptism. To be baptized means to immerse in water so the baptismal font is not correct. Dedication on the other hand is scriptural and is an ok thing to do and we did this when our children were young.Go and look for yourself in God's word! It does not mean one cannot be saved or baptized before the age of 13. All our children came to an understanding at an early age. It is different for each of us but we are required to make that decision for ourselves, NOT our parents!

Vicky - posted on 03/20/2012

Baptism is a sign of the covenant. It is not an admission of faith or belief. When Jesus came to renew God's covenants, he also renewed the Old Testament sign of the covenant which was circumcision. Circumcision, given as a divine command to Abraham, was to signify the removal uncleanness and was a seal of the righteousness of Abraham's faith. It is certainly clear that is was not only to be performed on new followers of God regardless of age but also on babies eight days old. Jesus came, and his ministry included the fulfillment of the law and the renewal of all the covenants. Circumcision was renewed by baptism, it was now not only a sign placed upon just the Jews and just the males but upon all, Jews and Gentiles, males and females. Although the Bible does not offer us a single specific example of infant baptism, the sign of baptism, since it was given as an extension of the sign of circumcision, would not somehow be more restrictive than circumcision in this one area of application to infants and children. And just as circumcision can only be performed once in a man's life, so too baptism, the sign of the covenant, need be applied only once in someone's life. Just because the sign is not visible to us, does not mean that the Lord doesn't know whom he has sealed to himself.



As for your friend and the disagreement, please remember the grace of our Lord and take a look at James 4:6, giving more grace to your friend. We all struggle with our understanding of God's Word. Scholars have debated for millennia, wars have been fought over these things. Do as Christ commanded and love your friend. If you are not yet ready for baptism, it is not what saves, only Jesus can do that.

Megan - posted on 03/20/2012

Hi there!

I just joined this site and your post was the first one I read. I came from a family who believed in baptizing babies as their way of getting into God's family, but when I accepted Christ for myself when I was 20, and started reading the Bible for myself, I found out that babies have no sin as of yet, and baptizing at any age isn't getting you into God's family, only believing and accepting him for yourself will asure your place in heaven. Baptism like you said is just a symbol of obedience and a step that you would like to take for God. It's not required for salvation. I had my 3 girls dedicated back to the Lord when they were 1 month and hopefully one day they will decide to take the step to get baptized. I know your friend means well, because i have faced the same situation myself within my own family. Just pray about it and God will resolve it! By the time I had my 3rd child everyone on my side of the family were asking "when is the dedication?" instead of " When is the baptism?"....God bless!

Pam - posted on 03/20/2012

We are Christian parents. We had our daughter dedicated to the Lord because we wanted her to decide when she would follow Christ in baptism. My husband had been baptized as an infant and then confirmed when he was thirteen and felt that when you are confirmed the church is just making the decision for you. I was dedicated as a baby and was baptized when I asked Jesus into my heart. Hope this helps in some way.

Sandy - posted on 03/20/2012

"She feels like my kids aren't in Gods family yet". If this is really what she is saying, then she is being legalistic. Her works are what saves her. She has to do this thing in order to be saved (or save her children).



A famous Lutheran teacher (which I (conveniently) forget the name) compared infant baptism to the circumcision of the Old Testament. I do not think that this is a correct comparison. Circumcision was done to be a part of God's people (as he was about to kill Moses for not doing it). It did show to all people that this man was a member of the Israelites, but I think the symbolism that was connected to is was a bigger part of this. I wonder if the act of cutting the foreskin was to remind them of the cutting of the covenant and the blood shed was the blood shed for them. In the end, it was legalistic. They had to do this. But when Christ came, there was no need for it. Paul even warns people of the Judiasers, those requiring circumcision. He called them mutilators of the flesh.



Christ said "Repent and be baptized" not "Baptize your children, teach them, get them confirmed and then they will be saved."



Mothers brought their children to Jesus for blessings, not baptisms. Christ told us to be like these children, a faith like them. To them, Jesus said it, I believe it!

Laura Zoey - posted on 03/19/2012

My father in law was raised catholic, mother in law was raised WELS Lutheran. Neither of their churches would allow their spouse to take communion there without conversion so both left both churches and hegan going to the church I grew up in, a multi-denominational church.

So my mother in law did baptize her kids for the sake of oth their families, and she did secretly baptize her first two grandchildren because she knew her son and his wife weren't planning on raising the kids in Gods word. But she has been fine that we have not baptized our children, she believes it is meant for believers but she thinks it's not a bad thing to do as babies either.

I'm sure my grandparents in law are upset we haven't baptized ur kids but we aren't close with them anyways.

So it is possible to be ex catholic! My father in law is :) buti agree, many non Christians I know still claim Catholicism. And still baptize their babies even though they don't attend church usually and don't live with God.

Angela - posted on 03/19/2012

@ Janeth - I can identify with much of what you said. People who were raised Catholics seem to cling to that even when they're not practising Catholics! A friend of mine (in her mid-30's at the time) categorically stated that all her children were Catholics. They hadn't even had Catholic infant baptism and were never raised with any understanding of the faith. Their mother had been nowhere near a Catholic Church or taken part in any specifically Catholic duties, customs or activities since she was a school girl.



My oldest 2 children had Catholic infant baptism (mainly to please my Catholic father) but the younger 2 didn't - they were dedicated as babies in Full Gospel Pentecostal Church. I had an idea that my father would "baptize" them over the kitchen sink (something which he admitted to me quite recently before he died) and he also did this with my brother's children!



A friend of mine "caught" his father-in-law (a Christian minister) baptizing his daughter over the kitchen sink!



To me, this form of infant baptism seems more of an initiation to a particular Church/denomination. Catholics of course are keen to claim as many souls as possible for their following. They have a saying, "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic". There are good Catholics and bad Catholics but there is no such thing as an "ex-Catholic," LOL!! So my friend who insists she's a Catholic is probably right - by Roman Catholic standards and statements of what constitutes a Catholic!

Janeth - posted on 03/19/2012

I formely believe in a believer's baptism. I was baptized and raised as a catholic but as a knowledgeable teen/young adult I had nothing to base my faith on. It just gave me a religion name to attach myself to. As a adult and now born again Christian, I followed in Christ's example and proclaim my faith, believe and desire to have and follow Christ by becoming baptized. That was about 27 yrs ago. My husband's family and I have quite a discussion on this as well. His mother was quite upset when she found out he decided to be baptized as a born again Christian. In her eyes, he was a baptized catholic but without faith, core values or true knowledge of the true God. His family are non practicing catholics who question why we have not had our 2 children baptized. We simply state that we hope both our children as they grow in the wisdom and knowledge of Christ and as they become saved in His name on their own, will too follow Christ's example to be baptize. We will guide our children along the way and look forward to the day that they will accept Him as Lord and Savior and then proclaim their joy in Christ by following in the believer's baptism.

Zandra - posted on 03/18/2012

I believe you have to be old enough to know and understand completey what Baptism is before you get Baptized. Being Baptized is not what saves you. What saves you is having a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is showing publicly that you want to follow Jesus whole heartily.

Angela - posted on 03/18/2012

@ Florence COX - I think Shana Poisel means 1 Corinthians 15:29 - a verse used to support Baptism of the Dead by those of the Mormon (LDS) Church who believe in this practice.



"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"



Here's a good weblink on this practice:



http://www.lifeafter.org/baptism.asp



Hope this helps!

Carla - posted on 03/18/2012

@Ashley--I was personally baptized 3 separate times. The first time was as a young teen, and I followed the Lord with as much as we were taught at the time. I backslid terribly, and re-dedicated my life to the Lord in my early 20s, and felt led to be baptized again. Years went by, and I felt something was missing from my relationship with the Lord. Again, I was following as much as what we were taught, but something was definitely missing. At 50 the light bulb came on, in the midst of suicidal depression, my daughter disowned us, my husband and I were separated--you know, the crossroads times of your life. I found what I had been missing--religion is NOT relationship! Duh! I was baptized the third time at about 54, but, to me, it was like it was the first time, because I finally understood.



Did I need to do that? No, but, to me, it was telling Jesus that finally, finally I got it, and I just wanted Him to know how much I appreciate and love Him. So, sweetheart, if you want to be baptized again, I sure don't see why not. And as for who can baptize? I think if your heart is in the right place, anyone can baptize you.



God bless, all

Florence - posted on 03/18/2012

In response to Shana Poisel, I am very well versed in the Bible and I have never seen anyone being baptized for the dead in it. Please respond with a scripture. Florence

Florence - posted on 03/18/2012

I, too agree that you must accept Christ and then be baptized. I think this is a subject that you need to avoid with her and just "agree to disagree". How can someone gain faith by being baptized as an infant?? "The age of accountability" is when one understands right from wrong. Each person must individually do that for themselves. I know that you can have other conversations about other things. You both know where each other stands and neither of you will change each other's mind. So, move on from here. Florence

Ashley - posted on 03/18/2012

I myself was baptized at birth as to my catholic parents. They were not big church goers or talked about God much. Im not even sure where my moms faith was when she died. I went to catholic school so I knew who God was, I only ever prayed when I was scared or blaming Him. It wasnt until I met my husband and had supper with his family and saw that they prayed before meals that God put it on my heart to start following Him. It waant until I accepted Him that I started seeing times in my past that He was there. Its been 3 years since Ive done a public profession of faith in my now Christian Reformed church. I feel that my first baptism was enough but I wouldnt mind doing it again now with knowing the full signifigance

of it. Even though I did nothing for God (ie pray, acknowlegde him, praise) growing up He was there for me when I needed Him, and in doing so that is what my faith waa built on. I have no idea if being baptized is why He was there or not but, it wasnt until I completrly accepted Him that our relationship started growing and Ive never been happier. To me it doesnt matter what the parents do, its what the child decides to do.

Angela - posted on 03/18/2012

I think Carla's given a good viewpoint there. Maybe it's easier to avoid getting in too deep than to confuse yourself thoroughly when otherpeople's beliefs or theologies are different to your own. I've heard it said that it's easier to win hearts for the Lord from non-believers than from those who are entrenched in a different belief system. Some of the hardest souls to win over are those that belong to "Christian deviation cults" (religions that appear to recognise Jesus and the Bible but do so on their own interpretations and add extra stuff that's not scriptural).



Like Tojo Meville, I was also baptized as a Catholic (infant baptism) and then had a believer's baptism in adult life.



It also raises the question of who is "qualified" to carry out a baptism. I understand that people who are not ordained ministers of clergy may still carry out infant baptism (according to some of the Churches who have infant baptism) and also, in the case of believers baptism, another believer who is NOT necessarily a Pastor or any kind of minister/Reverend can carry out a believer's baptism. I was baptized in a baptismal tank in our Church. An old friend of mine was baptized in his bathtub by a Christian friend.



Some people would not accept any baptism that did not take place with due ceremony and especially if it was not performed by an ordained minister and happen inside a Church building!



Sorry, I'm going off-topic here but it raises many interesting questions!

Tojo - posted on 03/18/2012

I was baptised as a Catholic then later had a believer's baptism. I believe in the latter but I respect the views of others...I am Godmother to my friend.s daughter who had infant baptism.....my friend did not go to church at all but obviously wanted her daughter to experience the love of Jesus. If I can help her in any way I will.

Carla - posted on 03/18/2012

"But she says that we have no power to accept Christ, we can't do anything to become Christians, only God can make us Christians through the baptism. We both say the same thing, we can't DO anything to be saved, but my belief says baptism is 'doing' something and in her belief asking god into your heart is 'doing' something'



This statement of hers troubles me. The way this reads, we don't HAVE to do anything to be saved, and as long as our family takes us to be baptized, we are okay. This takes the entire responsibility of accountability out of OUR hands. WE are the ones who have to go to the Father and say 'we are lost without You and Your Son, WE WANT to belong to You', and without realizing we ARE lost and that we HAVE been rank sinners, there is no repentance. To repent means to ask forgiveness, then turn and walk 180 degrees from what you were, so you don't get into the same thing you were saved from. Paul talks about this and says we are like a guy looking into a mirror, but then go away and immediately forget what we saw. We have to realize we were lost, run to Jesus, then never forget the price He paid for us to be able to receive such a Gift. So, you see, there IS a lot we HAVE to do in order to become and STAY Christians. It's a lifelong journey, always looking inward to seek out and ask for help to get the crud out so we will be considered worthy to live forever with Them.



I don't want to start yet another debate between the two of you, but it's important that you don't accidentally hear and take to heart what she is saying. I used to listen to this particular radio preacher, and I didn't agree with his theology, but I was a rural mail carrier, so I spent hours a day in the car, and liked to have Christian radio on. I listened to what he was saying, and even though I KNEW he was wrong, I began to get tangled up in his theories, and confusion ensued. I finally had to turn the station while he was on. Confusion vanished. This is why Paul said to company with people of like minds and faith.



Hope I didn't open another can of worms--God bless!

Rebekah - posted on 03/17/2012

There are 2 different issues in this post... one being your friendship and the other being which way is right. I'm going to start with the other issue, which way is right...



First off, let's dig into the Word for the moment...



Romans 12:3 states that "God has dealt everyone a measure of faith". Each and every single person has a measure of faith.



Psalm 8:2 states "You have taught children and INFANTS to give you praise". Wow, God already taught your child how to praise Him.



Let's look at the birth of Jesus and what His parents did...



Luke 2:22-24 reads that Mary and Joseph were to offer a sacrifice of two turtledoves and two pigeons. And if you read on about Jesus' dedication, Mary and Joseph were covered in a blessing prayer and Jesus too was prayed over. There was never a "water" baptism or sprinkling of water or anything.



When did Jesus get baptized? When He was 30 years old, and if you read about this (Matt. 3:13-17), He was to do this because this was His beginning of His ministry. Baptism is MORE than just an outward showing to everyone around you that you belong to Jesus and believe in Jesus and want to live for Him. Yes, it is that - but it is SO much more! Baptism is the beginning of a ministry. Baptism is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the actual becoming of a "new" person - you die to yourself (going underwater, representation of the grave), and coming up a new person in Jesus (rising from the grave). It is the essence of being "re-born". The disciples were adamant about 3 things to be a member of the body of the church - (1) repent, (2) be baptized, (3) go and tell others! These are the 3 things that we as the church should be following too.





Now you're friendship... the Bible is VERY clear about disagreements, grumblings, and being at peace with everyone. The first thing that should be done is agree to disagree... if that starts to cause issues with each of yourselves because of how you believe. Then you need to pray and ask God for guidance on baptism and what is truly right. Then do NOT confront your friend with the wisdom, ask God to change her heart, ask God to reveal the truth to her... accept it with full confidence within yourself that your children are Christians when they accept Jesus as their Savior (the Bible says all we have to do is believe and we will be saved - it is as simple as that). And no matter how each you believes, it may be a topic that you will never agree upon, or some point God will intervene and change her beliefs or you never know both of your beliefs. Give it to God and let Him do the rest! But stay friends, be at peace with each other, be open and honest (transparent), and let love cover your friendship.

Ashley - posted on 03/17/2012

I'm christian reformed and yet I dont agree with eveything my denomination says I should. No church is pefect because no man is perfect. I had issues my self with baby baptism. I ended up baptizing my babies because I agreewith both sides and so I took it as a step for myself by showing God that I accept that these are His children and I promise to raise them to know Him to the best of my ability. I think we all get hung up on the little details when we should just be rejoicing. A wise friend once told me "If you have to err, err on the side of compasion" God's law is forever and true, but as humans we can interpret His word wrongly. Who says that God doesnt agree with any and all age for baptism? The important thing to do is pray, and remeber that God loves us as imperect as we are, so we too should love people we think arent perfect.

Laura Zoey - posted on 03/17/2012

I agree Cyndal completely!

But she says that we have no power to accept Christ, we can't do anything to become Christians, only God can make us Christians through the baptism. We both say the same thing, we can't DO anything to be saved, but my belief says baptism is 'doing' something and in her beliefasking god into your heart is 'doing' something

So we agree and yet not.

I believe you enter Gods family when you accept him into your heart, she believes you enter Gods family when you're baptized.