We do not believe that immoral and/or impure people are saved. (Ephesians 5:3-5)

Victoria - posted on 02/07/2012

Hi Ladies,



* First off this is not a debating community, so please don't try to make this a debate.



* Secondly about judgement 1 Co 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."



1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgement to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?



1Ti 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

In order to this, there has to be a judgement made



* Lastly, if you are saved, then you have asked Jesus to forgive you of your immoral ways & impurity. Does that mean we don't slip up? No, but it does mean we do our best to live a pure & sin free life. If we are going about freely sinning, living lives contrary to the way of the word of God, with no second thought, then we most likely are not truly saved.



1 John 3:6 No-one who lives in him (Christ Jesus) keeps on sinning. No-one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No-one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (NIV)



Therefore, I still stand by the statement made by the author of our statement of faith (We Believe).



In closing this thread I leave one last thought,



Php 1:27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man (woman or person) for the faith of the gospel.



Are we doing this?



Blessings dear sisters.

In His Service,



Pastor Victoria MacPherson

Heather - posted on 02/07/2012

"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." ~ 1 John 3:6



I just wanted to jump in and clarify the meaning of that belief as it is taken directly from Scripture. Immoral and impure people CAN be saved. However if you are choosing to sin, knowing it is sin, then there is an issue. Yes, we all screw up, we all fall short everyday. It's when you know what you are doing is against God's will, and you choose to continue doing it anyway. If that is the case, then you are choosing to live an immoral or impure lifestyle, instead of being a follower of Christ. People who CHOOSE to engage sin, instead of turning from it as Scripture commands, cannot CURRENTLY be saved according to Ephesians 5:3-5. Yes, salvation is possible, but not currently evident.



For the other comments that arose in this thread, I actually do believe in once saved, always saved, however, I don't believe that salvation occurs because you prayed a prayer once. True salvation comes from a change in heart. And if you truly have that change of heart, then you will have a desire to live a life that is pure before God, and that obey's His word. If you reject His word, you reject Him, and haven't really accepted Him as your savior, thus are not saved.



All throughout Scripture we see the command to love each other. How unloving would it be to let someone think they were saved if they really weren't? We are commanded to encourage one another to live a life for Christ. We can't do that if we are allowing them to live a life of sin. I don't think we should walk around judging people, but we still need to call sin, sin, and encourage one another to flee from it.

Carla - posted on 02/07/2012

Judging inside the Church is not about something necessarily negative, and it is certainly NOT to be shared with others, unless you are going through the Biblical steps:



Sharon is spreading vicious rumors about me. I am to first go to her, tell her I have heard these rumors, and ask her to stop (that is if the rumors are false). If she continues on, I am to go to her again, with a witness this time, and ask her to stop again. If she continues, I am to take two or three witnesses with me and ask her to stop. If she doesn't, I take it to the church, and if, after having our say in front of the congregation, if she continues as a gossip, she is to be put out of the church. Because of the laws now, it's hard to flat out tell a person to leave the church, cuz they can sue, however, we are told not to have anything to do with a person who continually sins and is not repentant (this is talking about professing 'believers', not unbelievers). She will probably leave after everyone has quit associating with her. It's hard to gossip when no one will take your calls ;) I judged this woman to be a gossip, because of her actions. I judged her as non-repentant, because of her choice NOT to apologize, therefore I am not obligated to treat her as a Christian sister, because she is not. I can pray for her, but that is all the contact I will have with her. Gossip is a real strong spirit, and will destroy a church. This is what Paul was talking about with judging. A person of the church may not do anything to me personally, but if they are bringing shame to Jesus and the Church, I will treat them as a heathen and not associate with them, either. Again, these rebellious spirits do not want to be brought under control of the Holy Spirit, so I do not need to be friends with the vessels of their occupancy.



There are many people that I have watched their lives and judged them to be faithful, according to Paul's criteria, and therefore I count them as sisters/brothers and friends. Judging goes both ways, both are equally correct.



It is easier to pull a person down than to pull one up. We have to be so very careful who we associate with.



God bless, all

Angela - posted on 02/06/2012

If someone PERSONALLY hurts me or mine, then yes, I'll judge them - regardless of whether they're a Church member or a non-believer.



If anyone known to me makes a poor judgement for themselves, a bad choice, I'll no doubt have an opinion on it!



My understanding of the word "judgement" is about forming an opinion which may be negative - maybe even voicing that opinion to one or 2 others - but generally not taking action against that person unless it's to withhold a favour that I may previously have granted them under different circumstances. It doesn't mean going up to that person and challenging them for whatever it is they said, did or chose to say or do. This applies to people within AND outside the Church.



People, ANYBODY who makes a stupid choice/commits a crime/gets involved with the wrong friends/gets into stupid, unnecessary debt/forms relationships with unsuitable people/messes up at work etc ... they don't need me or anyone else adding to their troubles by telling them they're a fool and where they went wrong and what they should do about it. If they want my advice, they'll ask for it. Again, this equally applies to Christians or non-Christians!



That's what I mean by being "judgemental". Apologies if I have the wrong definition or a different take on it to others.



The Lord's Prayer says "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us." When we approach the Lord in humility and sorrow and OWN our sins, face up to them, He is just and forgives. On that basis I will forgive the sins of others. Simples!



It's no surprise that what the Lord wants of us in our walk with him is to:



a) be repentant of our sins - and

b) forgive others their sins



And these are probably the two hardest things we ever have to do as flawed humans. That's why the blessings are great when we do!

Carla - posted on 02/03/2012

II Peter 2:20-22: 'For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandments, delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.' This is in direct conflict with the statement 'you are blameless from that point on.' THAT'S why we NEED to examine ourselves often to make deadly sure we are continuing on the path of righteousness.



When we judge those inside the Church, this does not mean we don't like their hair or the way they dress. This means if a person who has declared himself a Christian is having an affair, or cheating his employees, getting drunk and carousing, the things Paul has warned us about, we have an absolute duty NOT to associate with these people. That doesn't mean we snub them, but if we keep them as close friends, they will not only try to affect our walk, but we will be seen as the same type of person they are. We HAVE to show the world we ARE different! I did not say we should dig into a person's life, but when the sin is outward and we have knowledge of it, we have to protect our salvation by keeping ourselves OUT of their doings. Having been in the Church for almost all of my life, I know for a certainty that those that proclaim Christ but don't live the life show their true colors, somewhere along the line. What we are ignorant of, we will not be held accountable for. But if we knowingly keep close company with an adulterer inside the church, sooner or later, it's going to harm us.



The Holy Spirit doesn't tell us these things for us to be snobs. He tells us to keep ourselves pure so our souls will be preserved unto the day of the Lord. We can be cordial to them, we certainly are to pray for them, but we MUST withdraw ourselves from a close association.



As for there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, the rest of that verse Romans 8:2 is 'There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit' (emphasis mine). IF we are walking after the Spirit, we are watching ourselves very carefully, to keep sin at bay. Yes, we sin every day, because we are human, but to deliberately, willfully sin, then not repent for it, we are in error, and in jeopardy of our salvation.



Let us be careful to guard our precious salvation, walk in love, and live like Jesus.



God bless, all

Rebekah - posted on 02/03/2012

Yes, immoral and/or impure people can be saved. And when you accept Jesus as Your Savior - You are blameless from that point on. Does that mean you do not sin? No. Sorry, we ALL sin each and every day - even when we don't want to. Hence why Paul in Romans said, I want to do what is right, but yet, I still do what is wrong. It's a constant battle within ourselves. I think what we need to realize is that there is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus! I do not believe we have the right to judge people - God told us we can only judge by the fruits within people. I think us as Christians have gotten so far into looking into what is right/wrong that we forget to walk in love - if we would just walk in love, ask God to give us His eyes, His heart, and guide us each minute of the day... we would find that we do exactly what we need to do. We would see things SO different than in our natural selves. We would not judge, but we would speak truth.

Angela - posted on 01/26/2012

QUOTE:



"Paul told us very specifically to judge those inside the church."



Except we don't know exactly who is 'inside the Church', do we? Not everyone who regards themselves as a Christian is shouting it from the rooftops or attending a fellowship! And not all those who attend a Church or claim to be a Christian actually ARE Christians!



I rarely have contact with people from my Church outside meetings and services. I know nothing of what's going on in their personal lives. I know nothing of the other Christians in my community who may have a real relationship with the Lord but don't attend a Church. I work a lot of hours. The rest of the time I'm at home with my husband - I might visit my family who live several miles away.



I go to Church if I'm not working a shift when there's a service on. I like my Church, our Vicar really gets God's message across and so does our Curate.



I'm not qualified to judge anyone else's purity or morality - always assuming I knew whether they're a Christian or not in the first place.



I'd also like to add that I value my own privacy and feel I need to respect other people's privacy.

Anne - posted on 01/24/2012

I realize that the way this statement is worded can cause a differing of opinions. However I know that when this statement was written the Sister in Christ that wrote this was in NO WAY trying to Judge anyone. She was only stating our beliefs in this community. I agree with what Carla stated.

Michelle - posted on 01/23/2012

This is one of the biggest problems with Christians today...Proclaiming you are a Christian, yet judging all others. Proclaiming who is or is not saved or going to heaven. Any true Christian KNOWS that ONLY GOD is the true Judge. As Christians, we are to be accepting, love your neighbor as Christ loves you. Not Judge your neighbor, not exclude your neighbor. To suggest that someone has to abide by YOUR rules...they are not YOUR rules, they are GODS rules and HE is the ONLY judge. This is one very reason some individuals can't or won't become Christians.

Michelle - posted on 01/23/2012

I agree with all of your posts :) everyone is at a different place in their walk with the Lord. Who are we to judge? We need to run our own race, and let our lights shine for those who have not accepted the Lord Jesus as the personal Lord and Savior. to Anglea Barker: Immoral and Impure ..I was just quoting the bible verse Eph. 5:3-5, but in my on words I would have to say sinners. Like we all are, no one is without sin. we all are impure, but trying everyday to walk like Jesus.

I know that as a mother of 4 children, my most important job is to teach my children about the Lord, and ensure that one day I will see them in Heaven. Proverbs 22:6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. Thank you ladies for the great responses. Let's keep serving the Lord and make it a goal to try to be like the woman of Proverbs 31!

In Him

Michelle

Carla - posted on 01/23/2012

Not at all, Angela. Paul told us very specifically to judge those inside the church. If they are not behaving themselves in the Godly manner he set down (via the Holy Spirit), he says put them out of the church! (I Corinthians 5:9-13) The world has imposed itself upon the workings of the Church, because it doesn't want to feel bad or guilty over it's deeds, so it ends up the Christians are 'bad' because they are living God's standards. But this has worked in reverse, cuz now the Church believes they, too, can walk as close to the edge as possible, and still waltz into Heaven! I totally believe we are to treat the unsaved as Jesus did, with love--BUT, we CANNOT condone their sin! Jesus expected the Church to live according to the way He lived His life--a living sacrifice to the Father. He didn't throw stones at the unsaved, He just told them there was a better Way. The Church, however, HAS to be held to a higher standard, because we DO know the Truth--or should.



As the End Times roll in, the Church is getting worse and worse. Sometimes it's because of fear of being shut down, sometimes it's because the thrill of the world is too enticing. We need to be on our faces before God finding Truth, then telling those who are in our sphere of influence. If they listen, great, if they don't, they have been warned. We also need bold teachings and teachers who are not afraid to go against the grain. We only have to please God, not Man.



God bless, all

Angela - posted on 01/23/2012

To be honest I think it's very arrogant to make assumptions about the validity of other people's salvation.



One's own salvation is a matter between oneself, our Saviour and one's own conscience. We don't know what's going on in other people's hearts and minds.

Michele - posted on 01/22/2012

I didn't say that I believed in once saved always saved either.I think some people think they are saved but don't really understand what it means to work out your salvation in fear and trembling.



I also believe that you can be truly saved and still screw up and not lose your salvation. Otherwise, I would have to be re-saved everyday, sometimes multiple times a day :)



The truth has got to be in the middle somewhere, IMHO.

Carla - posted on 01/22/2012

No, Michelle, at least THIS part of the group doesn't believe in once saved always saved.



I had been in church all my life. At 12 I went down and gave my heart to Jesus. But I knew NOTHING about what that meant. At our church if you didn't drink, smoke, dance, go to movies, swear and wore your skirts below your knees, you were good to go. We weren't taught anything about an actual relationship with Jesus, and living a Godly life. When I was 15, I got a boyfriend, and we didn't drink or go to movies, but I DID end up pregnant! We married, it was a disaster! Two children later, and an alcoholic by age 21, we divorced. I married again, and we went back to church a couple years later, but again, we STILL weren't given the tools we needed to actually LIVE a Christian life. I drank til it was a serious problem, had numerous affairs and ended up suicidal. This was at age 50! I finally got to desperation point and gave my FULL life over to the Lord, no reservations, no more fence-sitting. My heart was fully changed, and my life has changed to reflect my heart.



You see, just because I 'went forward' didn't mean I was saved forever. If I would have died during those years, I am absolutely sure I would have gone to hell. Because my heart had always been tender towards the Lord, I think He worked to get me back, but I don't think He would have let me into His perfect Heaven the way I was. I know most of the world believes Jesus saves forever, but that takes all the responsibility OFF us--and He expects us to our part for our salvation. No, we can't work our way to salvation, but we have to protect it to the best of our ability. We also have to say no to sin, and not just keep doing it, thinking it is okay. The Holy Spirit would not have spent so much time with Paul writing his epistles, if there was nothing required of us other than to just accept Jesus.



I don't want to offend anyone, or their beliefs. The Holy Spirit gives us wisdom and knowledge as He pleases, and not everyone gets it at the same time. If we are honestly seeking God and a higher walk and calling, He WILL bring us into His Truth.



God bless, everyone

Adowa - posted on 01/22/2012

You know sometimes people word things incorrectly. There mind is moving more quickly then their hands. Don't be judge mental. Be Christ like. When giving your opinion.

Michele - posted on 01/21/2012

Guess the group doesn't believe in once saved, always saved.



Even saved people behave immorally sometimes.

Angela - posted on 01/21/2012

Please define "Immoral & Impure"

Frances - posted on 01/20/2012

I think they are basically saying that anyone who is actively engaging in sin is not saved. It does not matter whether it is immorality or shoplifting, if they are doing it they are not saved.

Candace - posted on 01/20/2012

I agree with you. If that is the case, I need to leave the group.