Women in the Church

Heather - posted on 03/13/2009 ( 54 moms have responded )

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I was unable to attend my Bible study this week, but got an e-mail letting me know how far they had gotten. We are in 1 Corinthians 14, and apparently they got stuck on verse 34. The King James version of this verse is Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

I know that this may cause some debate, but I was just wondering what everyones views were on this issue, please support your answers with scripture or history, and remember that we are all sisters in Christ and please do not attack each other.

Romans 14:19 (New International Version) Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

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Sonia - posted on 03/14/2009

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 We have been through these verses so many times at our church and I also do personal study of it as well because this subject comes up often...I'll do my best at explaining what I've learned but first I just want to say that I am answering a question that as asked and I know their are alot of different beliefs out there on this subject this just so happens to be mine :) ok so here it is... first the church in corinth was out of control and needed advice on how to bring order to service. The woman sat in a seperate area away from the men and so Paul was addressing a problem that the women were yelling at their husbands from across the church. The church was also speaking in tongues and interpreting , prophecying and singing they were judging the teaching and calling out their thoughts and questions. Now yes, men were also doing this and not just the woman. He addresses the men in the verses before saying that each person should speak one ata time (verse 31) so there would not be any confusion Because God is not the author of confusion. Now he addresses the women seperately because of the "law". We have to know what the law is he's speaking of in order to understand why he singles out the women. :) This is the part I'd like to shy away from because it is so controversial LOL but anyway here goes....so Paul gets the law from Gen 3:16 "To the women He said: I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire will be for your husband, andhe shall rule over you." Ok so this verse is cross referenced with what God said to Cain in 4:7 Sin's desire is for you and you shall rule over it. So back to Gen 3:16 we see that God is saying women will sin by desiring to rule over, overpower or subdue her husband.  So in the Old Testament women were not allowed to speak in church when men were present. Now I know this will lead to the quesstion what about women teachers/ pastors in the church. I have to admit my views on this changed upon further study but I used to think it was ok because Paul was just speaking to the church in Corinth but upon further study Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:33 God is not the author ofconfusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. Right there even though this is a letter to the church in Corinth he mentions this applies to all churches...in 1 Timothy 2 :11-14 Paul goes even further on the issue of speaking and says women are not permitted to teach or to have authority over man, but to be in silence. But I want to point out that women are not to teach men. Because in Titus 2:3-4 the older women likewise be reverant in behavior, not slanderers, ot given to much wine, teachers of good things--that theyadmonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers,good obedient to theier own husbands, that the word of God may not be blashemed.. When we read a verse in the bible it's important to not teach a doctrine based just one verse. So the idea is not that women are not allowed to teach. they should not teach men. So I personally believe women are not to be the head pastor of a church. But because women are instructed to teach in Titus I do believe women are permitted to teach at church as long as men are not present. So you can teach bible study classes or be pastor over women ministries what have you I think the possibilities are endless and I do not believe this in any way devalues a women's role in the church in anyway. Paul  had allowed Priscilla and Pheobe to prophecy and teach but they did not do this within the church but yet they ministered to many. To say that women are not to be permitted to speak/teach in church is not to say women cannot be mightly used by God. Scripture tells us that God uses women all the time to do mighty things to name a few Deborah, Miriam, Esther, Huldah Anna, Mary of Magdalene, Mary and the four virgins...there r so many...because of these women being used by God some say that Paul was just speaking to the church in Corinth and it was just for that time but I don't see that because these women were not used by God in the church setting.  I know there will always be differences in opinion regarding that. But anyway I did my best at explaining my take on it. I hope I was able to help a little. :) Good Luck with your study It's a good one and keep me posted on what you guys come up with.

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Carla - posted on 12/18/2011

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Since this is a very old thread, and had gotten a tad bit heated, I think we will close it.

Thank you to all who voiced their opinions. Let us remember that we are here to encourage and edify each other. Let's keep our words loving and gentle.

God bless

Proud - posted on 12/18/2011

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We believe women have a right to share their opinions We have deaconesses in our church but we do not believe in having a female pastor/preacher/minster

Rebekah - posted on 03/20/2009

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I agree we can go round and round.  I guess what I don't understand from your perspectives and feel free to clarify, is how you can take one verse literal and not others? To me that is trying to make the Scriptures to how you believe.



And I guess I also don't understand how we can say prophecy is teaching, when the Bible is clear they are separate entities of each other.  Prophecy and Teaching are separate spiritual gifts as well.



Prophecy - the special ability that God gives to certain members of the Body of Christ to receive and communicate an immediate message of God to His people through a divinely anointed utterance. (See Luke 7:26; Acts 15:32; Romans 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:10,28; Eph. 4:11-13)



Teaching - is the special ability that God gives to certain members of the Body of Christ to communicate information relevant to the health and ministry of the Body and its members in such a way that others will learn.  (See Acts 18:24-28; Acts 20:20-21; Romans 12:7; 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11-13)



 



And I don't understand how we can say a woman can lead a children's ministry, when in fact many of them do lead men, if a woman cannot take authority over a man.  I'm really just trying to understand your points of view based off of Scripture you have pointed out.  For most of the Scriptures that have been stated are things that Christ came to set us free from - but I do believe that today's church has taken freedom too far as well.



But I would like to know from your perspectives, what if a woman is called to be an apostle? How do you view this?



 

Dawn - posted on 03/20/2009

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Well, like Sonia just said so well, we can go back and forth on this till the cows come home, so to speak.  We can take things too far in either direction.  For the sake of clarity, Paul never prohibited prophecy from women (which does include teaching) just that she can not take authority over a man.



Anyway, I too will be backing out of this discussion as I don't think it's fruitful to continue going back and forth. This is one of the reasons we have different denominations, right?!

Sonia - posted on 03/20/2009

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My original intention in posting here was to answer Heathers question. Which Ive done. And I did it to the best of my ability. And I can see that we can go back n forth till we r both blue in the face LOL. So I am going to back out from posting any further, my energies can be better used somewhere else. But that you Rebekah, for I know better now where I my self stand. And feel that I can be a pretty good witness.

Rebekah - posted on 03/20/2009

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Quoting Dawn:



I know about Phoebe, and I don't have an issue with women as deaconesses. My issue is that on one hand we want to take the bible literally, but on the other, some of us want to read our own preferences or opinions into specific verses to do what we want to do.  If an elder or bishop is to be the husband of one wife, then I think it's pretty obvious that elders and bishops (pastors) must be men.  This is beyond morality - which is absolutely a standard for leadership.  We can't re-interpret this to be without gender. It's great to study the greek language and the culture at the time (and I encourage such study), but sometimes (and I say this because it's happened ot me also), all our "deeper" study only helps us to miss the point. For the record, I have no issue with women leading and teaching in the church body.  I just have an issue with a woman holding the office or title of pastor. 






As for the Jezebel "spirit" I think we must be careful with this.  I think it's appropriate to say that certain people display characteristics of Jezebel in their sin or personalities but nowhere in scripture is a demon identified as "Jezebel".  When Jezebel died, her soul did not remain on the earth to plague other people.  I'm sure she was demonically influenced - as were we all before we came to Christ.  But we must be careful about the terminology we throw around. It causes confusion. 






And Rebekah, with all love and respect, you may wish to be careful how you word things in your comments.  I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but to say that you would "overwhelm me with too much information" implies that I am not capable of understanding and discussing things.  I know that none of us (especially me) has all the answers, but I think there's a gentler way of getting your point across.





I'm sorry, Dawn.  I wasn't trying to say that you aren't capable of understanding or discussing.  And I'm sorry it came across that way.



___________________________________________________________________________



I truly believe that if you are going to take the verses of discussion on women in the church according to Paul's writings literally, then you must follow it to it's fullest context that "women should not teach".  That means not at all.  Not meaning just behind a pulpit.



But I truly believe we need to go back to the Hebrew/Greek because not all Bible translations put it into the context of how the words are meant to be sent across.  For instance "women" in the original writings from what Paul was speaking about is actually supposed to be "wives".  In Titus 1:6, the original writing in the Greek is actually spoken about a woman being a one man kind of a woman, wasn't intended for a man.  Just as much, I don't and will not ever use a NIV Bible just because it leaves out Scriptures.  We must always turn to original context in the way it was meant to be written and pray over it to find revelation from the One who wrote it in the first place to receive our understanding.  I don't believe that going back to this we are trying to make the Bible to read what we want it to read, but to actually find out why Paul put in his "I, I , I" instead of "this is what the Lord says".




But if we are also going to take the Bible literally, then as a woman you should wear a head covering as Paul instructed every time you enter a church.  A man that has been emasculated should not be allowed to enter into any church building.  Women should not wear any clothing that pertains to a man.  This to me does not say that Christianity is for everyone if we start enforcing these rules, and then that leads to "legalism" and "religion".

Sonia - posted on 03/20/2009

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Oh oops sorry I didnt address who I was speaking to before, I thought I did...the above post was to Rebekah :)

Sonia - posted on 03/20/2009

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So the main point from reading the post is why we disagree on whether a woman can be a pastor or not. Is in the words of Paul. Yes, in some areas he says the Lord says and in some I, Paul...but one thing I see is his reasoning for women not being permitted to teach men in church is Paul takes us back to the beginning, the creation order. 1Tim 2:13 and then adds in v.14 And Adam was not decieved, but the woman being disceived was in the transgression.  Why would Paul do this?? Perhaps so we couldn't say it was a cultural thing or a word just for that time and church.



So as you said before we will have to agree to disagree and also I wanted to point out that I was not confusing the 2 roles leader/wives just that I was using one to help explain the other because the reason for both arguments is the same the creation order.



But I do thank you for taking the time to put the scripture with the belief it helps me understand better where we both stand and also understand the why.

Dawn - posted on 03/20/2009

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I know about Phoebe, and I don't have an issue with women as deaconesses. My issue is that on one hand we want to take the bible literally, but on the other, some of us want to read our own preferences or opinions into specific verses to do what we want to do.  If an elder or bishop is to be the husband of one wife, then I think it's pretty obvious that elders and bishops (pastors) must be men.  This is beyond morality - which is absolutely a standard for leadership.  We can't re-interpret this to be without gender. It's great to study the greek language and the culture at the time (and I encourage such study), but sometimes (and I say this because it's happened ot me also), all our "deeper" study only helps us to miss the point. For the record, I have no issue with women leading and teaching in the church body.  I just have an issue with a woman holding the office or title of pastor. 



As for the Jezebel "spirit" I think we must be careful with this.  I think it's appropriate to say that certain people display characteristics of Jezebel in their sin or personalities but nowhere in scripture is a demon identified as "Jezebel".  When Jezebel died, her soul did not remain on the earth to plague other people.  I'm sure she was demonically influenced - as were we all before we came to Christ.  But we must be careful about the terminology we throw around. It causes confusion. 



And Rebekah, with all love and respect, you may wish to be careful how you word things in your comments.  I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but to say that you would "overwhelm me with too much information" implies that I am not capable of understanding and discussing things.  I know that none of us (especially me) has all the answers, but I think there's a gentler way of getting your point across.

Heather - posted on 03/20/2009

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Dawn,



Romans 16 does speek of Phoebe as a deaconess. I hope that helps you.

Rebekah - posted on 03/19/2009

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Hi Dawn,



Again, referencing Hebrew/Greek on Titus 1:6 and 1 Timothy 3:2, 12...



'The husband of one wife" - one of the meanings of this expression, but not the principal one, is that the bishop or the deacon shouldnot be married to more than one woman simultaneously.  The expression mias gunaikos is known in Greek grammar as an attributive genitive, which is equivalent to an adjective, and would have been better translated as "a one-woman's husband" not a ladies' man, in other words.  The total context speaks of the moral conduct of the bishop and the deacon.  He should be one totally dedicated to his wife and not be flirtatious.  Paul brings out the same thought in the similar passage in Tit. 1:6 where the expression is exactly the same, except as pertaining to the woman that she should be one man's woman, not flirting with other men.



I also asked an accountability pastor of mine about those 2 verses today as I was researching and discovering new things in Greek, and his viewpoint on elders and deacons and pastors from 1 Timothy 3 and Titus is that no matter if it's a woman or a man in the position, they must be committed and faithful to the partner they are with, for when the time comes that a person in the church comes to them and they are weak, especially if a man that is a pastor has a woman that comes to them in a weak nature and vulnerable and they are proclaiming that their husband doesn't meet their needs sexually, that pastor MUST be held accountable to the standard of morals, just as a woman is a pastor and men will seek to prey on her, she must stand accountable to morals that both are faithful to their partners and not lower their standards.  But that is if the person is married.  If the pastor is single, I would still believe they would have hold themselves in a higher regard to morals for they have to live up to celibacy till married (if that is what they choose to do one day) and I'm sure the aspect of "dating" in a pastor's world can be inconceivable to many people, but they would have the right, if they are living a life of high regard (isn't that what Paul told Timothy, don't let the look down on you because you are young, live morally, study the Word, and you will earn their trust).



As for Jezebel... you are correct they are women in the Bible.  The "Jezebel Spirit" is referenced to King Ahab's wife and it is considered a demonic spirit because of Jezebel's attributes and qualities.  Jezebel was a wicked queen, using manipulation, devious ways, controlling, sexually perverse, idol worship, etc.  The reason it's referenced as the Jezebel Spirit is due to Queez Jezebel no longer is alive, but her spirit - that same attributes that she had is still alive and well.  This spirit loves to prey the church and any form of leadership (even in our own government) - it usually falls on women, but can also exist in men.  But for there to be Jezebel Spirit, there also has to be an Ahab Spirit.  I could go further into this, but it would overwhelm you with way too much information.  My pastor just went over this spirit in our leadership class and he had me do some teaching on it as well, for I had some information on it that he didn't - so I also got to learn from him, as him from me.  I would encourage you to read the book "Unmasking the Jezeble Spirit" by John Paul Jackson, it will give you an idea of how this spirit works, how you can discern it, and just how deceptive this spirit is for it can go unnoticed in a church for a very long time and won't be revealed until sometimes it's too late in a church - this is why we always need to have people with the gift of discernment, they really help when it comes to "protection" of the church body.  If you'd like me to go further into this spirit, and again, I say take it with a grain of salt and seek out the knowledge on your own and pray about it and let God reveal to you what is right... just ask questions.



 

Dawn - posted on 03/19/2009

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Rebekah, I appreciate your position, but I have just a few questions. 



First, I've heard much talk about this "spirit of jezebel", especially in charismatic circles. I have spent the last 4 years of my ministry in a Assemblies of God church, so I'm familiar with this perspective.  But, my question is where is this found in scripture? Jezebel was the wife of King Ahab in 1 Kings 16:25-2 Kings 9:30-37.  A woman named Jezebel is also mentioned in Revelation 2:20 who was teaching falsely in the church in Thyatira.  These were actual women - not spirits. 



Secondly, I wondered what your thoughts were on the qualifications for elders and deacons to be the "husband of one wife"?  (Titus 1:6; 1 Timothy 3:2, 12).

Rebekah - posted on 03/19/2009

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Sonia, want Scriptures from me, ok I'll present that, so this will be a lengthy post.  But first thing I want to say is, I am not trying to persuade your beliefs, nor do I expect you or anyone on else reading these posts to change their beliefs, actually instead I encourage you to take it with a grain of salt and let God bring the revelation to your hearts that He's ready to give in the right time.



 



So first off, I will start out with a brief historical reference...



Once Christ died and freedom was given to the Christian church, women took their "freedom" and went rampant.  And by this I mean by the time Paul was speaking to the Corinthians, the Thessalonians and then to young Timothy, women went "loose" - sexual immorality and trying to take over in the church (spirit of jezebel).  So due to these things, Paul spoke out against women and made rules for them to follow to create an "order".



Now if this were to happen today, women in the church becoming flirtatious with other men, prostituting themselves, becoming unmodest, and very outspoken in the church - I believe the church would lay down rules for women as well - actually, you still have denominations with strict rules for women.



 



Now here's some Scripture for you, I'm going to use many of the verses everyone has already pointed out:



1 Timothy 2:12-15



"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.  For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.  Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."



First thing I will point out in this Scripture is "And I do not..." - this is Paul speaking here.  If we reference throughout all of Paul's letters, when God was speaking, He said, "by the word of the Lord", "not I, but the Lord", "exhort in the Lord Jesus" - and you can reference these Scriptures: 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 1 Thessalonians 4:1, and all throughout 1 and 2 Corinthians as well as Galatians and Ephesians.



Throughout all of 1 and 2 Timothy, Pauls uses "I, I, I" - this is Paul's words, never once did he say "not I, but the Lord says".  And no, I'm not saying the Bible is not God inspired or false in any way - I do believe the Bible is true and that it is written by God.  But Paul has his own interjections and wrote them out, for he did what he knew to do at that time when women found liberty and went rampant with it, he made them follow rules and the only way he knew how to was through Adam and Eve.



And then if you really want to take these verses "literally" in 1 Timothy, then all of you that teach in church whether to women or children, are actually in the wrong.  Because literally it means you should not teach in church, but as verse 11 states, be silent and learn like everyone else.  And then not to mention, taking these verses literally also means that women cannot be saved unless they go through childbirth AND follow through with faith, love, holiness, self-control.  If that's the case, then young girls that become born again, are not actually born again because they have not had a childbirth experience. Or even those that were born infertile and can never have children, never truly receive salvation because they never have a childbirth.  And if really want to get into a "literal" talk, let's go to Deuteronomy 23:1, "No one who is emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."  Basically, all those men that have vasectomies should not enter into a church.  Any man who has surgery and had a testicle removed, cannot enter a church.  How many of your pastors have had vesectomies and are teaching?! I know mine has and he's still in the church - why doesn't this apply?  I can even go one step further with the subject of women, let's go to Deuteronomy 22:5, "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God." So basically, all of us that wear pants are filling the part of a man and we are an abomination, right? That's the "literal" translation.



Let's go to the Hebrew/Greek side of things, since KJV has a tendency to have errors, and I like going to the actual language and the way words were meant to be seen as:



I'm staying in 1 Timothy Chapter 2:9-15



This passage indicates that women were full and active members in the early church (1 Cor. 11:4-5, 14:33-35; Eph. 5:21-22; Col. 3:18-19; Tit. 2:1-10).  Peter also had something to say concerning the witness of women and their conduct at home (1 Pet. 3:1-7).  In the marital relationships, a woman is not presented as having any fewer rights upon her husband than he has upon his wife.



In Gal. 3:28 Paul very clearly wrote that there are no distinctions between male and female in Christ.  He did not indicate that there were no difference between the sexes, but that there are no distinctions in Christ.  The whole thesis of the teaching of Paul concerning women is that there must be respect for the difference which exist between men and women as such, and the external differing aspects of appearances should be maintained.  God has appointed tasks for a man and for a woman - no man can bear a child and no woman can assume the role of a "husband" (that does not say pastor or leader or teacher or any position in a church).  In 1 Pet. 3:7 women are called the fellow heirs of the grace of life.  In no way are they inferior to men in the sight of God.  On the other hand, it must be observed that God expects of each one the performance of duty according to his/her God-given gifts.



Often in the Scriptures we find Paul recognizing women as friends and co-workers (not helpers) in the Gospel (Rom. 16:1-4).  Priscilla is called a fellow worker in Christ Jesus (Rom. 16:3).  Paul does not differentiate between Priscila and her husband Aquila.  Rather he calls them both by the same name, sunergous, meaning fellow workers.  he does not distinguish between the work each can do because one is male and the other female.  Later on in Romans 16:21, he calls Timothy by the same name, sunergos.  In Philemon 24 he calls all men who were his co-workers, among whom was Luke, by the same name.



However, there are some difficult passages in regard to the position of women in the Christian Church.



One of them being 1 Corinthians 14:33-40...



The question frequently asked concerning this portion of Scripture is "Does the Apostle Paul forbid women to speak at all or to pray or prophesy in church?" This particular passage must be related to what had gone before in the speaking in an unknown tongue which was the practice in Corinth.  Across the bay from Corinth was Delphi, Greece's most famous center of oracles. It is impossible that what was happening in Delphi did not affect the Corinthians since intercommerce was common.  As in many other cities, there was also a Corinthian treasury in Delphi.  Those who wished to consult the Delphic oracle first sacrificed a sheep, goat, boar or other animal, after which, if the omens were favorable, they went into the room adjoining the Adyton or inner shrine.  It is interesting that Paul in 1 Cor. 8 deals with sacrifices to idols, no doubt influenced by these Delphic sacrifices.  At the inner shrine they waited their turn, which was determined by lot unless they had received from the Delphians the promanteia, or prior right to consultation.  No women were admitted.  They handed in questions written on leaden tablets, many of which have been discovered.  The pythia, or priestess, (note that it was a priestess, not a priest) who delivered the oracle was a peasant woman over fifty years of age.  At the height of the oracle's fame, there were three priestesses.  After purifying herself in the Castalian fountain, drinking of the water of the Kassotis (note the parallelism in 1 Cor. 12:13), and eating a laurel leaf, she took her seat upon a tripod which was placed over the chasm in the Adyton.  Intoxicated by the fumes from the chasm, she uttered incoherent sounds which were interpreted (observe both speaking in an unknown language and the interpretation of it) in hexameter verse by a waiting poet.  The interpretation, which was always obscure and frequently equivocal, was handed over to the inqurirer who usualy returned home more mystified than when he has come.



What Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 14:33-40, therefore, was undoubtedly influenced by this practice and the predominant participation of women at the oracles of Delphi.  They were not allowed to go into the inner shrine, but it was a woman who was the priestess.  Is it any wonder that Paul reacted to a practice so closely related to such paganism within the Christian Church?



Paul's comments in 1 Cor. 11:2-16 in regard to the covering of the women's head were in reaction to the existance of a thousand preistesses at the Temple of Aphrodite on Acrocorinth.  These priestesses, or temple prostitutes, were commonly seen without any covering on their heads and having short hair, which was unbecoming to a modest woman of those days.  Paul's concern, therefore, was that Christian women should never allow themselves to be viewed in any way as resembling those of low moral stature.  In 1 Cor. 11:3,16 his concern is that a woman in worship should very clearly be indentified as a moral woman, if by nothing else than the long hair or the covering of her head.  After all, if one of the prostitutes became saved, the only way she could enter an assembly of believers was to wear a covering (peribolaion, 1 Cor. 11:15) instead of long hair which would take a while to grow.  This was the practice particularly in Corinth in view of the evil behavior which was so nearby at Acrocorinth.



One can't take Paul's indirect imperative in 1 Cor. 14:34, "let thewomen keep silent in the churches" as absolute.  It must be taken in conjunction with what follows: "for they are not permitted to speak."  The word "speak" in Greek is lalein which means "uttering sounds that are incoherent and which are not understood by others".  Pauls says that instead of having anything like that, it is better to have silence.  Paul uses the same word "keep silent" in v. 28 when a man speaks in an unknown tongue without an interpreter.  Also the same imperative "let the first keep silent," is used in v. 30, "but if a revelation is made to another who is seated, let the first keep silent." What Paul is saying is that only one man must speak at a time.  It two speak at once, there will be confusion.  That "let him keep silent" is therefore, qualified even as the sigatosan of v. 34 in the case of the woman.  The verb sigao is used by Homer only in the imperative with the meaning of "hush, be still".  The imperatives here indicate linear action, i.e., it is not something that has a continuous effect but the action can be thought of as a line of line of dots.  Every time one of these three actions appear on the scene during a worship service, the person should hush, be it a man or a woman.  In the first two instances it concerns men and in the last women: (1) if a man speaks in an unknown language without anyone interpreting into a langauge that others can understand; (2) if a man speaks and somebody else gets up to speak, and (3) if a woman begins to act like Delphic priestesses speaking in an unknown tongue.



Under no circumstances does the injunction of Paul in 1 Cor. 14:34 indicate that women should not utter a word at any time during the church service.  It is not men versus women or women versus men, but it is confusion versus order.  It makes no difference who causes the confusion.  It is as bad if produced by men as it is when produced by women.



Furthermore, the word gunaikes in v. 34 should not be translated as "women" in its generic sense, but as "wives".  It is wives who should submit to their own husbands.  The whole argument is not the subjection of women to men in general, but of wives to their own husbands in the family unit as ordained by God (hence the reference Paul makes to Adam and Eve).  Paul states the principle that it was the duty of the husbands to restain their own wives from such displays.  It does not state that a man should restrain the wife of another man.  It is a shame for any woman to bring confusion into the local church, even as it is for any man to do so.  Whenever Paul speaks of submissiveness on the part of the woman, it is always on the part of a WIFE to her own husband.  It does not imply that a woman, simply because she is woman, must be submissive to any man simply because he is a man. (Reference 1 Tim. 2:9-15, Tit. 2:1-5)



 



All these Scriptures that I have read from everyone speaks of a wife and submission to a husband. Exactly the point of Gen. in Chapter 3, about the man will rule over woman.  Again submission, but the world "rule" in v. 16, is the same Greek word found in 1 Cor. 14:34, which is merely submission.



Now here is a question I have, why are we trying to confuse the role of "wife" with the role of a "leader"??? They are 2 completely different roles.



The role of the Wife:



A Christian wife's goal is to Glorify God! If your desire as a Christian wife is to glorify God, you must first understand God's perspective.  There are 5 issues to consider:





Men and Women are created in the image of God.                                                                (Gen. 1:26, 27; 1 Cor. 10:31) As a result of being created in God's image, you have certain tasks as His "image-bearer".  For example, you are to be in charge of God's creation and to glorify God.  Because you were created by God, you are accountable to God.  Therefore, you have the task of making responsible choices. (Josh. 24:15, Rom. 3:19) The Bible teaches taht the essential natures of both men and women are the same.  Both are made in the image of God although there are differences of course, in their physical bodies.

In the order of creation, man was created first.                                                                       (Gen. 2:7,18,21,22; 1 Tim. 2:13) The order of creation has significance in the role of the husband and the wife.  The husband was created to rule over the earth; the wife, later, was created to be a "helper" that would be suitable for him. Both, none-the-less, were created in God's image, but each one was created to carry out a different role as husband and wife.

Woman was created for the man, not man for the woman.                                                  (1 Cor. 11:7-9) The Apostle Paul is making reference to God's original intent.  Man is to glorify God and woman is to glorify man.  Take to example the trinity: Father - the planner who makes the plans; Son - the one who carries out the plans; Spirit - the one who also carries out the plans as well as keeps and empowers Christians.  In the Trinity, of course, there is perfect harmony.  All are satisfied with their roles.  There are no "power plays" or role confusion.  Also, within the Trinity, it is interesting to not who gets the glory.  The Holy Spirit did not come to call attention Himself but to Jesus (John 16:13-14).  In addition, Jesus did not come to call attention to Himself but to the Father (John 17:4).  So, just as Christ glorified the Father by doing the Father's "work", you are to glorify your husband by doing the husband's "work".  Your role is to glorify your husband.  You were created for him.

The effects of the fall of man.                                                                                                      (Gen. 3:16) In the beginning, God created man as ruler over the earth.  Man's wife was created as "helper suitable" for him.  As a result of their sin, God pronounced judgment or a curse on them both.  There were many painful effects of their rebellion and disobedience: death, thorns and thistles in the ground, pain in childbirth, and a power struggle between the man and his wife.  Whereas before the fall there was harmony between Adam and Eve in fulfilling their roles, now there would be a power-play as thy both sought to dominate the other.  It soon resulted in much grief, turmoil, bitterness and misery.  Indeed, one of the impacts of the fall was the beginning of sinful conflict.  Subsequently, Christ came to redeem us from the curse and if you are "in Christ", you and your husband have the potential to regain much of what was lost at the fall of man.  Therefore, you do have the capacity to have the harmony in your marriage that God intended.  Christ, is the only one who could have reconciled them to a restored, intimate, unashamed relationship with God and with each other.  Certainly, the deep unity and intimacy that God intended between husband and wife has been marred by the fall of man.  This is but one area that God intends to set right through His plan of redemption.

The husband was and still is to be the head of the wife.                                                      (Eph. 5:23) Your husband is the one in charge.  Being charge does not mean that he has to do everything.  It does mean that he is responnsible for managing his home.  A part of that managing is delegating responsibility to others, including the wife.  In order to help you understand a wife and husband's God intended roles, we need to begin with... (1) The Model of Christ and the Church - the wife is to model ("act out") the church being submissive to and glorifying Jesus. (Eph. 5:22,24,32) The church refers to the "body of Christ".  It is made up of all people who became and will become Christians from the time of Christ until He returns.  This group of people is also called the "Bride" of Christ.  Undeniably, Christians are to submit to Jesus' authority and utilize their energies to glorify Him.  Well, the wife's role is a model of the chruch's relationship to Jesus.  Therefore, you should submit to your husband's authority and use your energies to glorify him.  On ther other hand, the husband is to model ("act out") Christ's response to the church. (Eph. 5:32)  (2) Christ's Response to the Church.  (a) Christ died for the church, a sacrifice of self (Eph. 5:25) and (b) Christ loves, nourishes, and cherishes the church (Eph. 5:28,29,33) Christ/the husband cherishes, nourishes, sacrifices for, and loves the church/wife.  On the other hand, the church/wife is to submit to and glorify her Christ/husband.



It is only in fulfilling and living out these roles as God intended, that you and your husband will have close unity and harmony in your marriage.  In Christ, the closeness that was lost at the fall of man can be regained!



True Submission



God has created an orderly world.  To maintain that order, He has appointed three institutions with their own spheres of authority: the family, the church, and the state.  God planned it this way so that people could live in harmony together and be protected.  For example, God intends parents to protect their children (Eph. 6:1-4), elders to protect their church members (Heb. 13:17), and the government to protect its citizens (Rom. 13:1-2).  Within the family, God has given the husband authority over the wife for her protection (Eph. 5:28-29).  In fact, submission to her husband is the heart of God for the Christian wife.  It is so important to God that He made submission to her husband a manifestation of "walking with the Lord", "being in the will of God", and "being filled with the Holy Spirit" (Eph. 5:15-18).



The submission of a godly wife is more than a duty, it should be her heart's delight.  There are 4 Principles concerning a wife's submission and joy:



1.  Joy results from trusting and obeying God's Word.



Ps. 119:111 "...Thy testimonies... are the joy of my heart."



God's testimonies, His Word, were a joy to the Psalmist.  He did not have joy in SOME of God's testimonies, but ALL of them.  For the Christian wife, biblical submission to her husband is one of God's testimonies and should therefore be a joy for her.



2.  Joy results from knowing the God is working to accomplish His purpose even in difficult circumstances.



James 1:2, "Consider it all joy my brethren when you encounter various trials..."



God is always working His purpose in a wife's circumstances.  He wants to develop Christlike character within her and give her the special opportunity and privilege to glorify Him.  God can even overcome wha is evil or wicked for the wife's good as the character of Christ is developed within her.  God's purpose will be accomplished no matter what! "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" (Rom. 8:28.29).  So, we are commanded to "consider it joy".  You do that in the midst of trial by thinking, "This is good for me and God has purpose in it, or He would not permit it.  This is not fun, but I do have joy in knowing that God is working in mylife to accomplish His purpose."



3.  Joy results from following the example of the Lord Jesus in difficult times.



Hebrews 12:2, "...Jesus,... who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising, the shame..."



Like the Lord Jesus, a wife can have joy in knowing that she is pleasing to the Lord and that this (as Paul said)"...momentary light affliction is producing for (her) and eternal weight of glory for beyond all comparison" (2 Cor. 4:17).



As you look to tomorrow, it should be with hope in the Lord Jesus Christ.  Because of Him, you can "smile at the future" (Prov. 31:25).  You must train yourself to see all of life through God's providential care over you.  In trials, tell yourself "love endures all things'(1 Cor. 13:7).  I can endure this one more day. I can have joy in pleasing the Lord and will have joy in eternity because I pleased Him now."



4. Joy results from a Spirit-filled life.



There is joy from within a person wh is Spirit-filled.  Eph. 5:18 commands Christians to be "...filled with the Spirit..."  being Spirit-filled means you are controlled by the Holy Spirit and by the Word of God (Col. 3:16).   It is not an experience that you feel but is a biblical responsibility which involves, in part, a wat to think about life and God that is described in Eph. 5.  If you are spirit-filled, you will be expressing gratitude to God in all circumstances daily.



Five Biblical Principles Concerning The Wife's Submission:



1.  A wife is to be submissive to her husband in all things unless her husband asks her to sin.



2.  A submissive wife is not afraid to do the "right thing".



3.  A wife is to be submissive even if her husband is not a Christian.



4.  A submissive wife does not dishonor the Word of God.



5.  A wise wife will seek training and counsel on submission from a godly older woman.



I have all kinds of support for these principles, if you want them, I'll be glad to give them.



 



Leaders:



(1 Tim. 3:1-13) Qualifications of a Leader:



1.  Salvation - being born again



2. Call - God's appointment on a person (usually found in the giftings)



3.  Preparation - 1 Tim. 3:10 - testing



4.  Position - maturing and bearing fruit, place into the position God called to, whatever it may be - pastor, apostle, teacher, etc.



None of this has to do with whether male/female.



 

Dawn - posted on 03/19/2009

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Thank you ladies! I'm typically a very independant woman and it's been a journey to arrive at the conclusion we've stated here.  My husband makes a good point on this topic and Sonia, you make it too.  When my husband loves me and empowers me to use the gifts I have, and he acknowledges that my efforts on our team make him more productive and effective; when he "sets me free" to be myself, then I don't need to seek a title or position over him. When my husband is a strong leader - someone who I can follow as he follows Christ - then it's easier for me to be in the right order.  That doesn't mean we we're off the hook - but it does help when our husbands fill the role God gave them in the church and in marriage.



And I agree, Brooke, that this very conversation is proof that women are intelligent, can search and know the scriptures, and speak the truth to one another - that the scriptures, rightly divided, work and empower us all without needing offices or titles! 

Brooke - posted on 03/19/2009

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Dawn and Sonia.....you are both right on Scripturally ! Sonia, THANK YOU so much for being Biblically correct in everything you have stated here. In fact, you just proved the point of this post that women are used in the church. You have been great encouragement to me! I see your personal walk with Jesus through your posts because I saw the whole TRUTH behind them........not a human's personal beliefs or personal interpretation of Scripture -2 Peter 1:20- Just wanted to say thank you and let you know God has used you mightly !

Sonia - posted on 03/19/2009

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Thank you Dawn, I agree with you totally. I think we as women do get caught up in wanting titles and recognition for what we do and forget how effective we really are as helpers. My husband Is wonderful and always reminding me how important I am and that he couldnt do what he does were it not for me. Our pastor is also very good at thanking the women in the church for if it werent for us as helpers the church could not function as well as it does. Your husband is very blessed to have such a supportive wife.

Sonia - posted on 03/19/2009

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Thank you Dawn, I agree with you totally. I think we as women do get caught up in wanting titles and recognition for what we do and forget how effective we really are as helpers. My husband Is wonderful and always reminding me how important I am and that he couldnt do what he does were it not for me. Our pastor is also very good at thanking the women in the church for if it werent for us as helpers the church could not function as well as it does. Your husband is very blessed to have such a supportive wife.

Heather - posted on 03/19/2009

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Quoting Dawn:



I agree that men should hold the office of pastor and think that's the biblical perspective we should all hold, but I think it should be acknowledged that women can also have the gift of shepherding - especially when it comes to teaching and leading other women. And as an associate pastor's wife, I know there are many times when I become his right hand in whatever ministry, teaching or situation he is a part of - though he remains the one with the title and final authority.






However, I'd like to comment on the curse of Adam and Eve's original sin. Paul speaks of it a few times in the new testament. In 2 Corinthians he speaks of Eve's deception and in 1 Timothy 2 he states that one of the reasons women should not have authority over a man is because God mad Adam first and it was Eve who sinned first. He's directly addressing the words God spoke to Eve when He said that her desire would be for her husband, but he would rule over her. This competition women have with men over authority and leadership is a direct result of the "curse"! It's still at work today whether we want to see it or not.






We all have value and we are all required to contribute to the body of Christ. God gave us gifts to use and expects us to use them for His glory and for the edification of the saints. But God is also a God of order. He made Eve as an equal in value and importance - a helper for Adam in all respects, but when it was time to answer to God for their sin, it was Adam that God spoke to. As women I think we have a critical role in the body of Christ. If we see our position in God's order as a powerful position (instead of a weaker one) we will see that we have an amazing privilege to help and encourage, to teach and empower our husbands, our children, our leaders - and we don't need a title to do it. It's just taking up our part in the body and serving the One who so graciously redeemed us.





Well said. Thank you for posting this. Women do have a huge role in the body of Christ. I know it's not a biblical saying, but I still feel it holds true. And I really don't know who the original author was please forgive me. But "behind every great man is a great woman." either a mother that taught morals, a teacher that showed extra attention, someone elses mom that showed love, and/or a supportive wife.

Dawn - posted on 03/19/2009

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I agree that men should hold the office of pastor and think that's the biblical perspective we should all hold, but I think it should be acknowledged that women can also have the gift of shepherding - especially when it comes to teaching and leading other women.  And as an associate pastor's wife, I know there are many times when I become his right hand in whatever ministry, teaching or situation he is a part of - though he remains the one with the title and final authority. 



However, I'd like to comment on the curse of Adam and Eve's original sin.  Paul speaks of it a few times in the new testament.  In 2 Corinthians he speaks of Eve's deception and in 1 Timothy 2 he states that one of the reasons women should not have authority over a man is because God mad Adam first and it was Eve who sinned first.  He's directly addressing the words God spoke to Eve when He said that her desire would be for her husband, but he would rule over her.  This competition women have with men over authority and leadership is a direct result of the "curse"!  It's still at work today whether we want to see it or not. 



We all have value and we are all required to contribute to the body of Christ. God gave us gifts to use and expects us to use them for His glory and for the edification of the saints. But God is also a God of order.  He made Eve as an equal in value and importance - a helper for Adam in all respects, but when it was time to answer to God for their sin, it was Adam that God spoke to.  As women I think we have a critical role in the body of Christ.  If we see our position in God's order as a powerful position (instead of a weaker one) we will see that we have an amazing privilege to help and encourage, to teach and empower our husbands, our children, our leaders - and we don't need a title to do it.  It's just taking up our part in the body and serving the One who so graciously redeemed us.

Sonia - posted on 03/18/2009

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pain no matter how small is still pain.



I strongly disagree with you on many points. I will pray for you Rebekah. I'm sorry I would love to keep this conversation open with you, but you really have'nt provided me with any scripture which is what we are to test everything by.



Heather wanted our comments supported with scripture...I think when discussing our beliefs thats very good advice.

Rebekah - posted on 03/18/2009

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I don't believe the curse from the Garden of Eden stands anymore, when Christ came to fulfill the law and set us free, He also set us free from the curse.  Thus why I prayed and asked God for the forgiveness of Eve's sin, and I had a pain free childbirth, and no I didn't use drugs.  God told me the day I would go into labor and told me the exact time I would feel one slight pain to let me know I was in labor - and it happened exactly as it was said.  There are plenty of Scriptures in Revelation that explain why Jesus came to earth and that we are no longer bound in curses.



I don't believe a husband is a "ruler" over the wife - it is very clear throughout Scripture that yes, we as wives are to be submissive, but husbands also have to be treat their wives as Jesus loved the church.  That doesn't place the husband as a "ruler" or a "master" over the wife.  It places him as the head of the home, but the two work co-equal with each other.



And for the record, this is not a sensitive subject for me - I have been in many different classes that talk about this and my mind was made up for me the day I sought this out in prayer and God revealed to me that women can be in leadership and can be pastors and can do many of the so-called jobs that are for men.  I do believe there certian roles as husbands and wives that we are to fulfill, but male/female does not exist.

Sonia - posted on 03/18/2009

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Rebekah, Thank you for taking the time to break it down into "laymens" terms. Paul's letter to the church in Corinth however  is not the only reference I have built my belief of the woman's role in church. Heather's original question was on the verses in 1 Cor 14, and through my explaining of these verses led me to other verses concerning women in the church. Which as a whole is where I draw my belief from, Im not settling just on one chapter from one book . I'm sorry I understand that this is a sensitive subject for you.



God instituted the respective roles of men and women in the Garden of Eden, Gen 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee” (Genesis 3:16). Therefore, the subordinate role of women to men does not pertain to custom or culture, but predates both. Also, the Gospel has not altered or removed the subordinate role of women any more than it has affected (1) painful childbirth, (2) sweat and labor, and (3) physical death (Genesis 3:16-19), all of which will remain until the end of time.



The inspired Word of God gives several reasons for the subordination of women: (1) “For Adam was first formed, then Eve” (1 Timothy 2:13); (2) woman, not man, was deceived by Satan (1 Timothy 2:14); (3) woman was created from man (1 Corinthians 11:8); and, (4) woman was created for man (1 Corinthians 11:9). Yet, a woman’s salvation and worth are not tied to a man (Galatians 3:28); still, the Gospel does not dissolve physical distinctions between races, political or economic status, or sexes.



This passage [Galatians 3:28] deals with the worth of Christians in God’s sight, not the abolition of roles. The death of Christ certainly did not do away with roles. There are still the roles of husbands and wives, parents and children, governments and citizens, elders and congregations, in addition to others. While we have different roles to play, all Christians have the same worth in God’s sight. Im sorry but I do not agree that Galatian 3:28 supports your argument.



1Tim 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.



also 1 Tim 2:11-14. once again, women preachers and feminists come up with ‘well.. at that time, there were certain women that were acting up and teaching false doctrine.. and its just a ‘temporary’ command from Paul’ but what does the Bible say about why they are not to teach or have authority over a man? the reason is listed right after the clear teaching.. verse 13-14 ‘For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.’ unlike all the twisting of Scripture people do, and false reasonings people come up with, the reason for this was because ‘Adam was formed first, then Eve’. it doesn’t follow a cultural reasoning or a temporary thing, it follows Gods creation order. the reason for woman not being permitted to teach or to have authority over a man is because of Gods creation order of mankind and what role God has assigned to each gender.



the devil wants to come up with all kinds of false ideas to make the people of God disobedient to His Word. we shouldn’t be deceived by his tactics and must remember what he said to eve when he first deceiving her.. “has God indeed said…”
today hes saying the same thing to especially woman preachers.. ‘has God indeed said…?” (you cant be Pastors and teachers?)
the Word of God is perfect. trust in it.



We need to remember that God is not saying we are useless in ministry. He has given us a place. Our role is just as important as the mans. For if we are not carrying out our God-given roles as woman in all areas, not just the church, then it makes it impossibly for man to carry out his in the way God intended.



I also want to say that I will continue to post my thoughts here as long as the thread is kept open, but I do feel as though I'm repeating myself over and over. I think its clear that Im going to stand pretty firm on this issue. Your not going to sway me by twisting the scriptures to support your stand. If you really feel Im wrong I suggest you pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth and I will also pray that the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to all of us.



 





 

Rebekah - posted on 03/17/2009

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Quoting Rebekah:



Ok, I had to come home and grab a KJV of the Bible and read the entire chapter, for taking one verse out you can many different perspectives, but I would encourage each of you to keep reading.  For in the verses to follow, and if you read it according to the punctuation and with the inflections, Paul is actually flabbergasted at this.  We do have to consider their time period, but if you also read in verses 36-40, Paul can't believe what he's hearing and is basically saying why are we forbidding prophesy to take place?! And says if you want to be ignorant, go ahead, you are being ignorant for not realizing that by such man's law at that time, we are hindering the work of God and actually hindering prophesy from coming forth.  For the Bible specifically says "your sons and DAUGHTERS will prophesy" - that means women, for though I'm no longer a child, I'm still a "daughter".  We have to take into context the entire chapter too.  And then realize this is Paul's reaction to man's law.





I'm actually even going to take it step a further and put that KJV verse into "laymens" terms, as if I was explaining it to children...



Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening, asking questions that could more appropriately be asked of their husbands at home. God's Book of the law guides our manners and customs here. Wives have no license to use the time of worship for unwarranted speaking. Do you think everything revolves around you?



This entire chapter is about speaking in tongues and how the Spirit moves, and the one thing we do know about the Spirit is that it is easily detered away.  And due to that, us, women, who are so proned to talk out of turn, or about things that aren't meant for that time and place, can easily distract others from what God has for them.  Church is not the time and place to carry your "problems" from home into and brew on them and talk and vent - unless if you are venting in prayer to God privately (the ONLY person we should really run to anyways).

Rebekah - posted on 03/17/2009

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Ok, I had to come home and grab a KJV of the Bible and read the entire chapter, for taking one verse out you can many different perspectives, but I would encourage each of you to keep reading.  For in the verses to follow, and if you read it according to the punctuation and with the inflections, Paul is actually flabbergasted at this.  We do have to consider their time period, but if you also read in verses 36-40, Paul can't believe what he's hearing and is basically saying why are we forbidding prophesy to take place?! And says if you want to be ignorant, go ahead, you are being ignorant for not realizing that by such man's law at that time, we are hindering the work of God and actually hindering prophesy from coming forth.  For the Bible specifically says "your sons and DAUGHTERS will prophesy" - that means women, for though I'm no longer a child, I'm still a "daughter".  We have to take into context the entire chapter too.  And then realize this is Paul's reaction to man's law.

Heather - posted on 03/17/2009

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Sonia and Rebekah, I am very blessed by the way you are handling your disagreement. It is so much more intellectual and biblical then arguing. I really want to thank you both! It is a blessing to know that we can have disagreements without attacking eachother. In the end God knows who is correct. Maybe there is a way that you are both correct. God's will for everybody is unique.



Romans 14 has two different ways of looking at a disagreement:



1. Accept the one whos weak faith doesn't allow him (or her) to do everything that your faith allows without passing judgment on them.



2. The one who doubts what they are doing is condemned because everything that is not of faith is sin. (not saying anybody here does, just referancing)



I don't want to offend anybody by saying this, but it's how I handle disagreements in my walk with God. I always ask myself:  What would happen if I am right? What would happen if I'm wrong? Am I certain of what I believe? If not I study it further. If I am then I have nothing to worry about. For faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Again I'm not trying to start any arguements or offend anyone, that is just what I personally ask myself.



You both have been such a blessing to me through your comments again I just want to thank you for being such Godly women!

Rebekah - posted on 03/17/2009

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I'm not offended, just getting your perspective that's all.  I know many churches in Michigan that are completely against women in leadership and then there is my church - I'm an Associate Pastor and I lead the children's ministry.  I also teach sermons to the congregation and yes, that means "men" are present.  I don't believe I am not following what the Bible says, but it's ok, we'll agree to disagree here.  This is a common argument in churches, and I don't believe "we" truly have the right to say that any person is wrong in what they believe - God will direct our hearts and lead us in the ways we should go.  For all of us can read one verse and each one of us will have a different perspective on it - it's where we are in relation to God.  I know there are verses that I go back to and God shows me something new, and then I realize what I once believed I believe no longer, because God is growing me.  It's the same for all of us - we are moving from glory to glory.

Sonia - posted on 03/17/2009

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If you are the "head" pastor in your church then Yes I do think it's wrong. I believe woman can be pastors of women ministries and children ministries in their church. I also believe that women can have a word for their church during a service, but not actually be teaching a sermon if men are present. As far as Joyce goes....I have alot of books on my shelf that I have read by her and though she says she is not a word of faith preacher her teachings certainly are. Also she has some other things that she has taught that has not been biblical in some of her books....I would have to get them back out and read them again and find the references for you.



As for God says there is no male or female Your speaking of Galatians 3:28 this passage is not talking about our role in church its speaking of our salvation meaning anyone can be saved.



And I never said women can't use their gifts. I think only God can give us the gifts and its our responsibility to make sure we are using our gifts the way God has intended for us to use them.



I also want to say that all the word of faith preachers say they are not word of faith preachers. Yet, that's what they teach. I admit a word of faith teacher is very hard to discern, because I went to such a church for awhile and its not obvious at first but they teach another gospel and you really have to know your bible in orer to disern these people. They are good at decieving. I'm sorry if I offended you with anything I've written. It was not my intent.

Rebekah - posted on 03/17/2009

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Sonia, so me being a pastor is that wrong in your opinion?



Because based on my spiritual gifts I am an apostle, pastor, and teacher - these are my strongest gifts.  Are we not to use the giftings given to us? Romans, clearly says we are all part of the body of Christ, and we are to use what we are called to.



The Bible also says there is no male or female - not just in heaven, it's how God actually sees us.  There is no distinguishment.



And on a side note, Joyce Meyer is not part of the "word of faith" movement - that information is false.  She actually speaks heavily against that movement and explains her beliefs for reasons why.  I agree there are false doctrines and false prophets out there, it's the reason why the Bible says the only way to know it's true is if they point you to Jesus and lines up with Scripture.  (And Joyce Meyer does have a "headship", she is always in line with her husband, just because she is the preacher, doesn't mean she doesn't have a "headship".)

Sonia - posted on 03/17/2009

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Heather I'm glad to hear you got through your bible study and was able to work it out without any conflict PRAISE GOD!!

Sonia - posted on 03/17/2009

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Heather I'm glad to hear you got through your bible study and was able to work it out without any conflict PRAISE GOD!!

Sonia - posted on 03/17/2009

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Hi, I know I am not going to win any friends saying this but, just because Joyce Meyer is preaching doesn't make it right...When God sets up a natural order of something someone stepping out of that doesnt make it right. Also, I just want to mentin, Joyce Meyer is heavy into the word of faith movement which is a false doctrine. Which to me would be one good reason why God set up an order in the first place. God being  the headship of men and men being the headship over women. I would look up some verses of false prophets and false doctrines...the bible says they have huge followings thus looking like their ministry is being blessed when it actually is not. I know that there are alot of people who love Joyce Meyer and I understand she has brought alot of people into what they believe is a closer and clearer relationship with Jesus, but I ask is it really if there is some false teachings mixed in with truth...rat poison is 99% real food and only 1% poison but that rat still dies in the end :)

Sonia - posted on 03/17/2009

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Hi, I know I am not going to win any friends saying this but, just because Joyce Meyer is preaching doesn't make it right...When God sets up a natural order of something someone stepping out of that doesnt make it right. Also, I just want to mentin, Joyce Meyer is heavy into the word of faith movement which is a false doctrine. Which to me would be one good reason why God set up an order in the first place. God being  the headship of men and men being the headship over women. I would look up some verses of false prophets and false doctrines...the bible says they have huge followings thus looking like their ministry is being blessed when it actually is not. I know that there are alot of people who love Joyce Meyer and I understand she has brought alot of people into what they believe is a closer and clearer relationship with Jesus, but I ask is it really if there is some false teachings mixed in with truth...rat poison is 99% real food and only 1% poison but that rat still dies in the end :)

Heather - posted on 03/17/2009

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Quoting Rebekah:



Not always is the woman at home taking care of the children. There are many single dads now, and it's an increasing number as the years go by. Plus, some dads stay home, while the moms work. And I have found working in the children's ministry as the pastor, that our teachers have a tendency to have LESS discipline problems in a classroom with a male present. The only place where most men don't seem to want to serve is the nursery, but I understand why, the laws that are in place now, have really changed many things in a nursery setting and most men don't want to deal with it. So they serve elsewhere in the CM.






I agree women need a "headship" above them, but I will bring up Joyce Meyer, here's a lady in a great ministry and God is her "headship" - just as Esther. I don't believe there has to be a "man" above a woman in ministry. God will use whomever is an open vessel to receive and pour out - look throughout Scripture.





Rebekah, I am sorry. I did not word my reply well. You are very correct when you say that women are not always home carring for the children. And you are also correct that when men are present there are less discipline problems. We do not live in a perfect world. People die, devorce, and all sorts of other things. Financial situations require us to do what we need to do to live. I did not mean to offend anyone, and I am sorry if I did. I only meant to discuss what was concluded in our study last night. It was our group as a whole that came to this conclusion, I understand that this may not be everyones views.



I am not familiar with Joyce Meyer, I was just reveiwing what the Bible says. Esther did respect and honor that King Xerxes was her superior. I also want to point out that God isn't mentioned once in the book of Esther, even though it is obvious he was at work. God does use all vessels that are open to him, and he uses everyone in the way he chooses too.



Thank you for holding me accountable for what I say. I pray that you will continue to do so.

Rebekah - posted on 03/17/2009

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Quoting Heather:



Quoting Jennifer:

Hello all! I can say that every single post is for well thought out and for informative in every way! My thoughts on things are that when we go to the Lord and read His word we must first not go into it with pre-concieved thoughts. We must come with an open mind and open heart so that when we read the word of the Lord we will understand the true message that is being told, instead of reading what we want it to say.

God does not want us to be at odds with each other as others have stated the confusion.

However, you need to look at what Paul was referring to when he says, "let your women keep silent in the churches". Does this mean that women should not speak in church services today? It is clear from 11:5 that women prayed and prophesied in public worship. It is also clear in Chapters 12 - 14 that women are given spirtual gifts and are encouraged to ecercise them in the body of Christ. Woman have much to contribute and can participate in worship services.

In the Corinthian culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public. Apparently some of th women who had become Christians thought that their Christian freedom gave them the right to question the men in public worship. This was cuasing division in the church, In addition, women of that day did not recieve fromal religious education as did the men. Women may have been raising quesiotns in the worship services that could have been answered at home without disrupting the services. Paul was asking the women not to flaunt their Christian freedom during worship. The purpose of Paul's words was to promote unity, not to teach about women's role in the church.

I do feel people look far to much into this verse and they take the wrong meaning away once they read it. I do not feel a woman's place is behind the pulpit and some of the reasonings is in part of these verses. I feel that women are better suited in other areas of the church in order for their "voices" to be heard. I for one teach our Wednesday night children's church and again on Sunday night and I feel I am respecting the men of the church. With my husband, I do take the role of honor and obey and I do let him do his job, being the man of the house, letting him sort of speak, wear the pants in our family. Does that mean I am any less of a woman, no, I don't feel so, I just respect my husband. Same goes for in our church! I am a stay at home mom and that was talked about between me and my husband long before we got married. I do feel a woman's place is in the home with her children. I have one more child that is still at home, but once he starts school I will be going back to work, that is why for the last 2 years I have been doing online classes to get my BA in education. I do not have any issues with the moms that work and send their children to daycare and I respect them and I think that is what this verse meant. RESPECT! I don't think Paul was saying men are better than women, or they should mind their own and keep quite, or that their voices will not be heard, but merely respect for their husbands while at church and out in public.

I hope that I have not stepped on anyone's toes as that wasn't my intention here but to share my thoughts! Heather, I do pray that you have came to some sort of agreement and everyone has given you resourceful verses to go back to.

Jenn





I think that you discribed this very well. I also am a stay home mom and will remain so until my twin girls start full day school. I believe that it is important in our currupt world for me to teach them Christian values that they would not learn in day care. I would never put down any mom who did work, but feel that it is important for my family for me to be here.






I also think that it is crucial for childrens ministries to have women involved or in the lead because that is what they have at home. I do think that it is equally important for the children to know that the women are working under a male leadership and that the relationship between the two models mutual respect. That way if they do not observe this respect at home they at least have an idea that men and women can work in unity respectfully and that that is what God has intended.






Thank you for sharing with us!





 



Not always is the woman at home taking care of the children.  There are many single dads now, and it's an increasing number as the years go by.  Plus, some dads stay home, while the moms work.  And I have found working in the children's ministry as the pastor, that our teachers have a tendency to have LESS discipline problems in a classroom with a male present.  The only place where most men don't seem to want to serve is the nursery, but I understand why, the laws that are in place now, have really changed many things in a nursery setting and most men don't want to deal with it.  So they serve elsewhere in the CM.



I agree women need a "headship" above them, but I will bring up Joyce Meyer, here's a lady in a great ministry and God is her "headship" - just as Esther.  I don't believe there has to be a "man" above a woman in ministry.  God will use whomever is an open vessel to receive and pour out - look throughout Scripture.

Heather - posted on 03/17/2009

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Quoting Jennifer:

Hello all! I can say that every single post is for well thought out and for informative in every way! My thoughts on things are that when we go to the Lord and read His word we must first not go into it with pre-concieved thoughts. We must come with an open mind and open heart so that when we read the word of the Lord we will understand the true message that is being told, instead of reading what we want it to say.

God does not want us to be at odds with each other as others have stated the confusion.

However, you need to look at what Paul was referring to when he says, "let your women keep silent in the churches". Does this mean that women should not speak in church services today? It is clear from 11:5 that women prayed and prophesied in public worship. It is also clear in Chapters 12 - 14 that women are given spirtual gifts and are encouraged to ecercise them in the body of Christ. Woman have much to contribute and can participate in worship services.

In the Corinthian culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public. Apparently some of th women who had become Christians thought that their Christian freedom gave them the right to question the men in public worship. This was cuasing division in the church, In addition, women of that day did not recieve fromal religious education as did the men. Women may have been raising quesiotns in the worship services that could have been answered at home without disrupting the services. Paul was asking the women not to flaunt their Christian freedom during worship. The purpose of Paul's words was to promote unity, not to teach about women's role in the church.

I do feel people look far to much into this verse and they take the wrong meaning away once they read it. I do not feel a woman's place is behind the pulpit and some of the reasonings is in part of these verses. I feel that women are better suited in other areas of the church in order for their "voices" to be heard. I for one teach our Wednesday night children's church and again on Sunday night and I feel I am respecting the men of the church. With my husband, I do take the role of honor and obey and I do let him do his job, being the man of the house, letting him sort of speak, wear the pants in our family. Does that mean I am any less of a woman, no, I don't feel so, I just respect my husband. Same goes for in our church! I am a stay at home mom and that was talked about between me and my husband long before we got married. I do feel a woman's place is in the home with her children. I have one more child that is still at home, but once he starts school I will be going back to work, that is why for the last 2 years I have been doing online classes to get my BA in education. I do not have any issues with the moms that work and send their children to daycare and I respect them and I think that is what this verse meant. RESPECT! I don't think Paul was saying men are better than women, or they should mind their own and keep quite, or that their voices will not be heard, but merely respect for their husbands while at church and out in public.

I hope that I have not stepped on anyone's toes as that wasn't my intention here but to share my thoughts! Heather, I do pray that you have came to some sort of agreement and everyone has given you resourceful verses to go back to.

Jenn


I think that you discribed this very well. I also am a stay home mom and will remain so until my twin girls start full day school. I believe that it is important in our currupt world for me to teach them Christian values that they would not learn in day care. I would never put down any mom who did work, but feel that it is important for my family for me to be here.



I also think that it is crucial for childrens ministries to have women involved or in the lead because that is what they have at home. I do think that it is equally important for the children to know that the women are working under a male leadership and that the relationship between the two models mutual respect. That way if they do not observe this respect at home they at least have an idea that men and women can work in unity respectfully and that that is what God has intended.



Thank you for sharing with us!

Heather - posted on 03/17/2009

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Thank you everyone once again for sharing your views. We had a wonderful study last night, it started out rather interesting, two of the highest respected ladies there obviously disagreed last week and acted rather childish towards each other making snide comments. I suggested that since I wasn't there that they explained their point of veiws, and the first lady spoke up, and when she was done she said "but I'm the only one who thinks that." And one by one almost everyone said that they agreed with her, she just didn't explain herself the week before. I think that by the end of the study we all had a wonderful understanding. So here is what we came up with:



Verse 34 states that women should remain silent during church, but if you keep reading you will find that it talks about them asking questions when they get home. We believe that they were disrupting the service for things that were of non importance. A comparisson that was given was if you disagreed with something that was said in your church service, and got heated about it, you could either choose to yell at your pastor right then and there, or wait and talk it out with your husband or close friend if you are not married to see if they also agreed that it was wrong. This is talked about in Matthew 18:15-19.



If you go back to 1 Corinthians 11:5-16 it talks about women praying and prophesying in the church (as Jennifer mentioned), so we understand that women are not ment to be completely silent.



Going forward to 1 Timothy 2:11-15 we read again about women in the church. They are not to teach or have authority over men. We believe that women can teach outside the church, or the youth in the church, but that it is just saying that women should not be in complete control of the church. They can be co-pastors or leaders of childrens misistries, but should not be in complete leadership of the grown men in the church. We did not make a definent cut off as to where that line was however. Some thought that meant that it was okay for women to teach a sermon others didn't think so.



So to summerize, women are not to have authority over grown men, if they disagree with something that is being said during church they should talk it over with someone else after the service instead of disrupting the message. They are allowed to pray and prophesy at church, and even assist the men leading the church.



In one sentance they are not to disrupt the service in any way or to have complete control of the church.



Again thank you all for sharing your views. This is just what we as a group concluded.



 

Rebekah - posted on 03/17/2009

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Heather, as a pastor, you will always find that when you have Bible studies, there will be people that will be glad, mad, sad, and happy.  It always happens that way.  And all I have to tell you is when that happens, it's because the power of the Spirit moved and there are still people stuck in a rut and don't want to succumb to the Lord's ways yet - give it time, and pray over those that get mad that they will have their eyes opened.  If they leave, let them, don't hinder what God is trying to do in your group.

Naomi - posted on 03/16/2009

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I think i need to clear something up. But i think it is also a good example of what am trying to say.


No, our denomination or our experances should not effect how we read the Word. But for us to do that we need to understand how our experances have effected us. Kind of like you can't fix a problem if you don't know you have one.  For example: if i had a very bad experance with my father as i was growing up, I would need to understand that his example of fatherhood is not a correct one. I need to make a concuse discission to put a side my learnt understand of what a father is to be able to understand how God can be a father to us and find comfort in this knowledge. 


Does this make sences? Why i think my post and some of the resoponse is intresting and a good example of what i am saying is this. I have a BA and MA in Linguistics Australian English and American English is very different even through they are both "English" . Australia English has 15000 words that are not used in any other form of English. This doesn't include the words we use that have different meanings. We also see the world differently, America is a individualistic socierty and Australia is more a collective socierty. I got myself into a lot of truble when i lived in the States when i forgot this. 


What has this got to do with how we read the Bible. Everything which is why it is so important that as christians we need to meet together and nut out, dig deep into biblical passages. If someone says something that doesn't sit right with us we need to ask for an explination of their thought, ask them to expand. It might show us how our experances in life have effected the way we understand passages or vise versa. 


As for the role of Women in the church  I think i am the biggest fence sitter of them all. I understand the view of people who believe a women should not preaching in church but every part of my upbringing and experances rallys against this. I also understand the other side to, full ordination of woman ect. I don't think the Bible is clear on this because we can see in the old testament that one of the first Bishops of the church was a woman, Debra. There are a lot of areas in the bible that are gray. Which is why places like this are great. We, as christian women can meet together and share our understanding and nut out this questions. 


I'm going to stop now and go feed my kids before they go ferral. 


God bless.


 


Quoting Sonia


In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.





Matthew 5:21 Jesus states You have heard it said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgement, ' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement.






Matthew 5:27 Jesus says "You have heard it said to those of old,'You shall not commit adultery' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already commited adultery with her in his heart."






I agree Rebekah that Jesus came to show us how to live out the law. And the setting us free part wasnt setting us free from the law I believe it was setting us free from having to offer up a living sacrifice everytime we sinned. For Jesus was that for us once and for all when he died on the cross. I know there are many commandments in the Bible given to us by God but I want to focus on the 10 for a second to explain what Jesus meant by the first and second great commandment.






 






Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. Jesus is showing us here how to live out 1-4 of the ten commandments. These commandments are dealing with our relationship with God.






Mark12:31 And tthe second, like it, is this:'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.






this verse is Jesus showing us how to live out 5-10 of the ten commandments because those commandments are dealing with our relationships with others.






I also want to point out that Paul was teaching on how a church should be set up in order for it to function the way God intended it to. Like I said before I don't believe for a second Paul was saying women are not to be used at all in the ministry. I believe he was just telling us a women is not to be the head pastor in a church or the "head" of any ministry that involves men. But as far as women being head over women is ok because of Titus before mentioned. To be honest with you as far as children go I dont have a stand on that issue yet because I havent studied it. But as far as in the home I do believe that the bible does say that the man is responsible for the spiritual leadership in the home. Now I know that Men do not always take charge in this area like they were commanded, but it doesnt take awy from the fact they were commanded to do so.






I also want to address that women are allowed to be educated and to vote and what not Yes they are and I think thats great. I do believe we should be growing , but as long as it still keeps to how God intended things and for us to "grow" we need to make sure it is in line with what God intends because if it isnt than we are not really growing at all, as it may seem. If we are starting to move away from what God wants for us we will only reap the consequence of it. I think as women we need to be wise and read our scripture and make sure every decision we are making is in line with the word of God. We need to study as if our lives depended on it because they do. I think you should definitely pray to God and ask Him to reveal the truth of the scripture...God will not contradict himself...but He will explain himself if you ask.






I dont think we should be translating scripture based on how we feel about it or what we have experienced...Just because I feel a certain way doesnt make it right, plus we all feel differently so how can something be right for me and not for you, same with experience. The only true way to seek whats right is with the word of God and through prayer...but prayer will never go against what was already written.






I think this is great and Im so very thankful for all of you. I can tell you are all mature women in the faith it definitely shows through your comments.






I also want to say something else a bit of a confession LOL...when I first read and did my study on women in the church it was because I wanted so badly to be put behind the pulpit. And After reading through scripture I was disappointed LOL and I also felt ripped to the core. I thought but I have a voice and I deserve to be heard LOL...But I also first and foremost wanted to be in obedience. And I have to admit even though I was obedient in action, my heart was bitter and resentful. God gave me a dream...I think it was a wake up call or a warning...anyway in my dream I was in my bed and my chest became so heavy I couldnt breath or call out or utter even a sound. Now I took that as saying if I continued to have a heavy heart in this matter God wouldnt be able to use me at all. I would eventually be completely ineffective. God was showing me I had a voice and He wanted to use me...just not in the way "I" wanted. Of course he wants to use us ladies. We just need to follow scripture and His leading so he can show us "how He" wants to use us.






God bless and I will pray that your study tonight that the spirit will move and speak to you all and you all will come away encouraged, blessed and excited about how God will choose to use each of you for His kingdom!






 





 

Jennifer - posted on 03/16/2009

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Hello all! I can say that every single post is for well thought out and for informative in every way! My thoughts on things are that when we go to the Lord and read His word we must first not go into it with pre-concieved thoughts. We must come with an open mind and open heart so that when we read the word of the Lord we will understand the true message that is being told, instead of reading what we want it to say.



God does not want us to be at odds with each other as others have stated the confusion.



However, you need to look at what Paul was referring to when he says, "let your women keep silent in the churches". Does this mean that women should not speak in church services today? It is clear from 11:5 that women prayed and prophesied in public worship. It is also clear in Chapters 12 - 14 that women are given spirtual gifts and are encouraged to ecercise them in the body of Christ. Woman have much to contribute and can participate in worship services.



In the Corinthian culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public. Apparently some of th women who had become Christians thought that their Christian freedom gave them the right to question the men in public worship. This was cuasing division in the church, In addition, women of that day did not recieve fromal religious education as did the men. Women may have been raising quesiotns in the worship services that could have been answered at home without disrupting the services. Paul was asking the women not to flaunt their Christian freedom during worship. The purpose of Paul's words was to promote unity, not to teach about women's role in the church.



I do feel people look far to much into this verse and they take the wrong meaning away once they read it. I do not feel a woman's place is behind the pulpit and some of the reasonings is in part of these verses. I feel that women are better suited in other areas of the church in order for their "voices" to be heard. I for one teach our Wednesday night children's church and again on Sunday night and I feel I am respecting the men of the church. With my husband, I do take the role of honor and obey and I do let him do his job, being the man of the house, letting him sort of speak, wear the pants in our family. Does that mean I am any less of a woman, no, I don't feel so, I just respect my husband. Same goes for in our church! I am a stay at home mom and that was talked about between me and my husband long before we got married. I do feel a woman's place is in the home with her children. I have one more child that is still at home, but once he starts school I will be going back to work, that is why for the last 2 years I have been doing online classes to get my BA in education. I do not have any issues with the moms that work and send their children to daycare and I respect them and I think that is what this verse meant. RESPECT! I don't think Paul was saying men are better than women, or they should mind their own and keep quite, or that their voices will not be heard, but merely respect for their husbands while at church and out in public.



I hope that I have not stepped on anyone's toes as that wasn't my intention here but to share my thoughts! Heather, I do pray that you have came to some sort of agreement and everyone has given you resourceful verses to go back to.



Jenn

Krystle - posted on 03/16/2009

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Hello all! Everyone's thoughts have been encouraging and a lot of good view points have been made. I still have to stick with how I feel that no matter what denomination you are there is still only one word. Sonia made a very good point saying, "I dont think we should be translating scripture based on how we feel about it or what we have experienced...Just because I feel a certain way doesnt make it right…" If you see a speed limit sign and you know you are speeding, does it make it right? Just because you’re driving behind the cop to avoid getting pulled over doesn’t mean that you’re right for following his lead in going over the limit. Same thought should be applied when reading the Bible. God definitely gave us free will but, through his prophets, only put forth one set of principals for us. If I were to translate the text differently than my sister and she from another is how we build confusion. And 1 Corinthians 14:33 clearly says (KJV), “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace to ALL CHURCHES of the saints.”

With that said….

Sonia… loved your explanation leading up to the understanding the story behind the scripture and I feel you hit the nail in the bud, so to say. But to take it a step further…

In Paul’s day, there were occasions when Christian women, perhaps impelled by holy spirit, prayed or prophesied in the congregation. On such occasions, they acknowledged their position by wearing a head covering. “…but every woman that pray or prophesy with her head uncovered dishonor her head.” (1 Corinthians 11:5) [Head meaning someone she falls in subjection to. i.e. husband and other men) Further, in Paul’s day and today, sisters along with brothers are urged to make a public declaration of their hope. (Hebrews 10:23-25) So this shows there is a proper, respectful way Christian woman can pray or teach when they are in the presence of their Christian brothers.

Sonia - posted on 03/16/2009

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Thank you Sarah...I had a lil struggle there expressing myself LOL...you said it perfectly.

Heather - posted on 03/16/2009

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Sonya-



I wanted to add to your comment about women growing. I believe that there are only two ways to grow, with God and away from God. Reading and understanding the scripture is so important in our lives, and your right, our lives do depend on it. I have been praying that God would show us the truth tonight, and that we will all accept it. My study has women that are at all ends of the spectrum on this issue, and I fear that some will walk away bitter and upset. I have been praying that this will not be so, but that we will all walk away encouraged and excited! I welcome any prayers for my group as we dig into this controversial issue tonight.

Sonia - posted on 03/16/2009

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In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.



Matthew 5:21 Jesus states You have heard it said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgement, ' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement.



Matthew 5:27 Jesus says "You have heard it said to those of old,'You shall not commit adultery' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already commited adultery with her in his heart."



I agree Rebekah that Jesus came to show us how to live out the law. And the setting us free part wasnt setting us free from the law I believe it was setting us free from having to offer up a living sacrifice everytime we sinned. For Jesus was that for us once and for all when he died on the cross. I know there are many commandments in the Bible given to us by God but I want to focus on the 10 for a second to explain what Jesus meant by the first and second great commandment.



 



Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. Jesus is showing us here how to live out 1-4 of the ten commandments. These commandments are dealing with our relationship with God.



Mark12:31 And tthe second, like it, is this:'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.



this verse is Jesus showing us how to live out 5-10 of the ten commandments because those commandments are dealing with our relationships with others.



I also want to point out that Paul was teaching on how a church should be set up in order for it to function the way God intended it to. Like I said before I don't believe for a second Paul was saying women are not to be used at all in the ministry. I believe he was just telling us a women is not to be the head pastor in a church or the "head" of any ministry that involves men. But as far as women being head over women is ok because of Titus before mentioned. To be honest with you as far as children go I dont have a stand on that issue yet because I havent studied it. But as far as in the home I do believe that the bible does say that the man is responsible for the spiritual leadership in the home. Now I know that Men do not always take charge in this area like they were commanded, but it doesnt take awy from the fact they were commanded to do so.



I also want to address that women are allowed to be educated and to vote and what not Yes they are and I think thats great. I do believe we should be growing , but as long as it still keeps to how God intended things and for us to "grow" we need to make sure it is in line with what God intends because if it isnt than we are not really growing at all, as it may seem. If we are starting to move away from what God wants for us we will only reap the consequence of it. I think as women we need to be wise and read our scripture and make sure every decision we are making is in line with the word of God. We need to study as if our lives depended on it because they do. I think you should definitely pray to God and ask Him to reveal the truth of the scripture...God will not contradict himself...but He will explain himself if you ask.



I dont think we should be translating scripture based on how we feel about it or what we have experienced...Just because I feel a certain way doesnt make it right, plus we all feel differently so how can something be right for me and not for you, same with experience. The only true way to seek whats right is with the word of God and through prayer...but prayer will never go against what was already written.



I think this is great and Im so very thankful for all of you. I can tell you are all mature women in the faith it definitely shows through your comments.



I also want to say something else a bit of a confession LOL...when I first read and did my study on women in the church it was because I wanted so badly to be put behind the pulpit. And After reading through scripture I was disappointed LOL and I also felt ripped to the core. I thought but I have a voice and I deserve to be heard LOL...But I also first and foremost wanted to be in obedience. And I have to admit even though I was obedient in action, my heart was bitter and resentful. God gave me a dream...I think it was a wake up call or a warning...anyway in my dream I was in my bed and my chest became so heavy I couldnt breath or call out or utter even a sound. Now I took that as saying if I continued to have a heavy heart in this matter God wouldnt be able to use me at all. I would eventually be completely ineffective. God was showing me I had a voice and He wanted to use me...just not in the way "I" wanted. Of course he wants to use us ladies. We just need to follow scripture and His leading so he can show us "how He" wants to use us.



God bless and I will pray that your study tonight that the spirit will move and speak to you all and you all will come away encouraged, blessed and excited about how God will choose to use each of you for His kingdom!



 

Heather - posted on 03/16/2009

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Thank you all for your input! And most importantly thank you for not attacking eachother! I was worried when I asked this, but now I see that I shouldn't have been. My Bible study is tonight, so I have written down a few good points that were made here to take with me. To clear up the denominational issue, we are a non denominational church because we believe that denomination shouldn't matter. There is only one Bible and it should always be read the same, when you start twisting it cults are formed. Our study is a womens study designed to get the truth from the Bible.



Sonya, thank you for your imput, you made some wonderful points! Your use of scripture was amazing.



Naomi, I want to thank you also. While I don't believe that denominations should make the scripture say what they want, and shut the door to everything else, I do believe that where you come from makes a difference. We have three missionary wives in our group, and the pastors wife. Our pastor is from Lebanon. We enjoy looking at things from all points of view. One of the most important things I got was from you saying that women weren't suppose to be leaders over men even in music. The girl that is the most supportive of women being silent in the church is the leader of our worship team. I agree that if we decide that we should be silent in church this should change as well. I will be interested to find out why she beleives so strongly in something but is making an exception for herself.



Rebekah, knowing that you are a childrens misister I was waiting for your response to this and want to thank you. You made some wonderful points! I do believe that life and time are important. Which is where this sometimes gets confusing with our missionary wives that just came back from China. It's different over there. We are trying to reach a conclution on this that will be respected by all of us.



Again thank you all for your help, and I will let you know tomorrow how it went since some people asked me to do so.

Rebekah - posted on 03/16/2009

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Take a look at that day and time, women were not allowed to be educated, women were to be homemakers and they raised the children.  Women were not allowed to vote.  Women weren't even allowed to enter the temple at times.  If women were leaders back in that day, it would have been seen as inappropriate and very disrespectful.  Let's fast forward now... women are allowed to vote, women are allowed to be leaders, thus meaning women have been allowed a voice in public.  I don't believe women are held under that law anymore for a couple of reasons, (1) Jesus came to set us free of the "law", meaning we are to follow His example because He came to show us how to live out the law - LOVE, and (2) God uses all people for His will - Esther, Ruth, Rahab, Deborah just to name a few.



I truly believe God uses women in the church and will use them in a mighty way when it's according to His will - look at Esther and Deborah, because of their submission to God, that allowed them to become an amazing vessel! We too can be used.

Naomi - posted on 03/16/2009

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Let me first apologise my spelling is bad on a good day but even worse at 12:30 at night.



Sonia you hit the nail on the head. 



Krystie  i respect your thoughts but i think that what denomination you are does effect how you understand what you are reading. Or rather not your denomination as such but rather your own cultral and life experancies. What we have experances in our lives effects how we see, hear, view and read everything. I don't think we can take the bible literally, at face value. for several reason.



First: large parts of the text is write as poetry eg song of song. So we must unpack the text as if it was any other text. 



Secondly: we need to understand the cultral context that the book was written. Especial in the New Testament as pauls letters were directed at spacific church that had  spacific problems like the church at corinth. We need to look at the situation of the time see how paul address the problem  and then apply it to our own life's, church ect. 



I live in Sydney Australia and go to a anglican church, and my husband works at Moore college (anglican seminary) the basic belief at the college regarding women in church is that, women should not preach in church. They should not be in leadership over men not even in a bible study, or the music group. Part of the argument is this passage in corinthains. As Sonia explain this passage is address a spacific problem with in the church in corinth. To use this to support your own political/ cultral views is wrong  rather we must understand who we are and where we come from to understand how we ourselves can color our own understanding of any text. 



I remember leading a bible study about this. I sat down with my friends (yes boys and girls) and talk about who we are as cultral beings. I discribed most of they lives and the same sort of life exepirances that they shared. They grew up in a very well off area most of them came from a christian home. They went to very good schools, mostly privert schools. Never really had to worry about life. I then ask them if they believed if i thought the same way as they did. If i had had the same life experances as they had. The all said "well yes". Until i shared my life/ culteral story. i grew up in a very poor area of the north of England. When i was i child we had 6 million coal miners unemployed or on strike. I grew up in a time when the Yorkshire ripper was on the lose. I can remember being so scared to walk down the street by myself. I can remember fathers of friends of mine who had horiffic scares from when they served over  in Northan Irland with the  police . I remember seeing images on TV of the IRA blowing up another pub/ hotel, the Falklands war.  I guess you are asking yourself what has this got to do with the price of bread. basical we are all diffirent cultrel beings and we need to understand where we come from and how that might color our view of everything from what we see on TV to what we read. Your literally interpritation might not be mine. Take this passage that we have been discussing. If i come from a church that has a really big problem with gossiping. My literal interpritation  of this text might me that women need to shut up in church because of the hurt and pain their gosiping is doing to other people with in that church family. However, if that is not a problem in say another church that is in a very conservitive area and the cultral belief is that a woman should stay at home and look after the kids and have no life outside of that. Then this passage could be read "literally" as, yes women should not speak in church as they have nothing to say of importance and that God only speaks through Men. And women should sit down and shut up. Right or wrong i know people and church that believe that. 



Your Literal interpritation is not the same as the person next to you.



You know what amazes me the most about God. Its not that God gave us free will but he gave us brians. So that we can sit down together and discuss and unpack all sort of different texts and topics. Look at who we are and what we have experance and how that effects what we read.  To disagree on a point of theology does not have to course disunity in fact if we can sit down and discuss these points in a resectful manor with each other. What wonderful witness we can be. 



I really enjoy reading others peoples views on not just theology but anything as it makes me think about what do i really believe, can i back it up with evidence. It forces me to think through what "I" believe rather than just accept blindly someone else view. 



Have a great day, stop and smell God great creation. That blows me away too.



 



 

Krystle - posted on 03/16/2009

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Quoting Robin:

Heather, I think the interpretation of the scriptures of the Bible depend greatly on what demonination you are. Some interpret more liberally, some more deliberately. So talk to your pastor about this if you are confused.


This is something that I strongly disagree with.  The bible explains things one way for all denominations no matter what translation or version of the bible you have.  Even though there are a lot of metaphors to explain things (which can be a bit confusing) I believe the bible should be taken literally.  Like Sonia mentioned in her explaination, God did not create confusion. So, therefore, for all denominations to have to have there own opinions and interpretaions of God's Word is contradictory to that statement. Christianity should unite Christians not separate us.

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Sonia, you said my thoughts and understandings so much better than I could have and with such love and grace. Thank you! 

Melody - posted on 03/14/2009

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Sonia- I just want to thank you for a very thorough and well thought out answer!

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