Why do we call ourselves christians if..

Rabecca - posted on 06/02/2009

Quoting Maria:

I do agree but I also look at it from the other point....we have churches today that preach God's Love and that God puts up with anything. When you read the Bible did God put up with a lot of it? No...Yes, i need to love the sinners because I am one too but I need to be careful because spiritual gravity works. Those who are Christians can be pulled down almost faster than we can pull a non-Christian up. We have the tendency to think God will accept us no matter what. He will but not when we continue in it. God makes alot of things black and white..we just would prefer for it all to be in gray. Gay is wrong, infant baptism is wrong, speaking in tongues is not a part of the times of today....that is clear in the Bible. He also states that we are to love people to bring them to Him..let Him do the changing but don't get caught up in it. But you must remember..yes, our churches are full of hypocrites but so is the world. They world sees us as "supposed perfect" yet we are just as much as sinners as they.

I have to say this really took me back a bit Um speaking in tongues is not part of times of today Gods word is the same yesterday as it will be tommorrow and forever I would never force my beliefs about tongues on anyone it is a very person choice but I believe acts 2:38 makes it very clear

I do however agree with you God did not put up with sin he and only he can be the judge of our hearts and I for one am glad he just calls on me to love one another  that to many  outsiders the church can be seen as perfect people who in turn  mess up alot becuse we do it is in our very nature just as it is with the non -believer just in our case we know better but it does not make living away from sin any easier just more worth it

Tam - posted on 05/30/2009

Maria, that is so true about some Christians today thinking God will put up with anything, and they can twist the Word to support their way of thinking.

The basic fact is God is Love. Yet too many people do not know (or are afraid to know) what true love is.

There are many examples of God's love as Father when he corrects His children--when He won't put up with sin. Jonah was put in the belly of a whale for his rebellion. David nearly lost his Kingdom over his sins. Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden and every generation since has been cursed with sinful flesh (among other things). Each of these and countless other examples in the Bible show us that God will not put up with anything. The Bible clearly states that the wages of sin is death.


Just as we expect our children to honor the laws and rules of family, God expects us to learn and follow/honor His laws. And just like we discipline our children when they rebel, God will discipline us. He gave us the rights and wrongs we should know, so there is no excuse.

True love takes courage. True love is to be able to see past the flesh and past the sin into the heart. It means loving that person to Christ, yet also being strong enough to lovingly show that person what sin is and how Christ died for us to forgive them that sin. True love is correction and conviction. And true love is encouragement to help see them through, not tear them down. God is that love we all lack and should desire.

When we love, it should be with God's love. Sometimes that means building bridges to share the gospel and other times it means being a bit tougher, yet loving and encouraging to help those who stumble or don't know Christ to understand the seriousness of their sin and need of salvation. We should pray for the Holy Spirit to help us discern those moments to be a most effective witness. As I mentioned above, we cannot save those people, only He can do that. We are called to be His lights in this dark world. Those who are truly searching will be drawn the light like a moth to a flame and God will then move in their lives if they but open their hearts to Him.

We should also pray for discernment to know those we cannot reach. I think this is what you meant when you talked about some Christians being able to be pulled down faster than we can pull non-Christians up. There are those out there whose hearts are so hardened they will not be moved no matter what type of witness we are. Our hearts should be on guard for those. Proverbs 26:4 tells us "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." That is a trap some Christians fall into when they try to love those hardened hearts, and feel they are failing so they try harder, or they are convinced that arguing with them will when them to Christ if they can just prove they are right. The trap is that Satan will use those people to engage Christians so they are distracted from reaching those who can be reached for God at the very least. Or, that situation is witnessed by someone who is wavering or seeking and if the Christian is made to look foolish as stated in Proverbs, another soul might walk away from our precious Savior because our good intention turned into a bad witness because we took our eyes off God in our our desire to be right or we have taken offense. Or worse, he will use them get a Christian confused in their minds and put doubt in their hearts until they fall away from God themselves.

Only God knows the hearts and minds of men, we cannot, so we need Him to direct our paths and trust Him to give us the words/actions (or in some cases, lack of action/words) to deal with each person we encounter. It is not our place to judge anyone. God knows.

Our job is to draw near to God, love Him and grow in Him through daily sacrifice of our fleshly sin through repentance, prayer, praise, study of His Word and just living His commandments. It's when we take our eyes and hearts off Him that we can be deceived or tricked into arguing with fools or being led away by false doctrines or become that which we battle, and if we do, we can fully expect correction and should not expect it otherwise.

IMHO, anyone who teaches that God is okay with sin and will put up with anything is not in line with scripture and if we come across them, we should quickly add them to our prayer lists that their hearts and eyes might be opened to the truth of God so they can turn back to His direction.

Tam - posted on 05/30/2009

Laura, I'm so sorry to hear that you went through all that. Unfortunately, that spirit is loosed in our churches today and it breeds nothing but judgement and gossip and slander and divisiveness. And you are right, the more bridges we build with those around us, the more those whose hearts have not been hardened will desire the love that God has placed in us, and with that love comes His peace and understanding. On another loop or thread I used the example of a bride on her wedding day. If she truly loves her groom, she is glowing, there is an expectancy in her eyes and the people around her pick up on it. If they are content in their marriages they smile knowingly and cherish the feeling. If they don't know it or aren't married, they see it and desire it for themselves. Then you will have some people who are bitter and their hearts are hardened so they stay away from the bride or they mock her, the groom or pending or the new marriage (or marriage in general). But the bride, she doesn't see any of it for she only has eyes for her groom. That's how we should be with Christ. Live for Him and let Him move through us to touch those whose lives can be touched. Give those not yet in a relationship with Him a desire to know more and come to Christ. For we cannot save them, only He can do that. We are simply the light that He sends to draw them out of the darkness into His love. :)

Maria - posted on 05/29/2009

I do agree but I also look at it from the other point....we have churches today that preach God's Love and that God puts up with anything. When you read the Bible did God put up with a lot of it? No...Yes, i need to love the sinners because I am one too but I need to be careful because spiritual gravity works. Those who are Christians can be pulled down almost faster than we can pull a non-Christian up. We have the tendency to think God will accept us no matter what. He will but not when we continue in it. God makes alot of things black and white..we just would prefer for it all to be in gray. Gay is wrong, infant baptism is wrong, speaking in tongues is not a part of the times of today....that is clear in the Bible. He also states that we are to love people to bring them to Him..let Him do the changing but don't get caught up in it. But you must remember..yes, our churches are full of hypocrites but so is the world. They world sees us as "supposed perfect" yet we are just as much as sinners as they.

Laura - posted on 05/29/2009

I grew up in a Non-denominational church. I left 8 years ago. And I will say that one of the reasons why I left has to do with the assistant pastor counseling my mom without my dad knowing. My grandparents knew, but never told my dad. And the head pastor knew as well. They are now married and have a 2 year old son. Yes, I have a 2 year old half brother. I love him dearly. I would do anything for him. My dad filed for divorce because she was spending a lot of time with the assistant pastor at my grandmas, and she would never talk to him about what was bothering her. She always went to the pastor. According to everybody at the church that I grew up with my dad was the one that cheated. My dad does agree that he should have done somethings differently, but he has never cheated. I'm also considered to be a horrible person because I got pregnant at 17 and married the father. No, I did not marry him because I was pregnant and humiliated like the head pastor thinks. I love my husband more than anything. The only people from the church that like my husband and are proud of me and still talk to me are my youth pastor, his wife, and my hairstylist. They love my kids, and don't care about anything that happened the past. Those people went to a different church after the head pastor said that he was better than everyone else. I agree with Ginger building friendships is better. They will feel like they can trust you more, and will feel more comfortable about asking you about your faith.

Ginger - posted on 05/29/2009

This is a great topic! I too have been reading John this week, and have been pondering Jesus' command that we love one another. One of the problems I see is this perception amongst churches that if only we outlawed gay marraige, abortions, etc, suddenly the world will be a Christian place, as if laws against every imaginable sin will somehow make people accept Christ. We've got things backwards. God wants people's hearts first, THEN He wants them to 'go and sin no more'.
Many of my coworkers are gay, and to me it is much more important to build friendships with them so that they trust me and are willing to ask questions about my faith than to berate them and tell them that they are going to hell. They're not going to hell because they are gay, they're going to hell because they have not yet accepted Christ. My job is to show them love as a witness to Christ, so that they are willing to listen to my testimony. Until they accept Christ, there's no reason for them to stop sinning anyway (and who of us can stop sinning on our own without the Lord's help?).
I think we spend too much time in our cosy little Christian circles (myself included!!). We need to go out and love our neighbors, no matter who they are. That's what missionary work is supposed to be, right?

Min DANITA - posted on 05/29/2009

YOU KNOW OURI BIBLE TELLS US SATIN HAS A SET IN THE CONGREGATION.NOT TO MENTION,THE WHEAT AND TARES WILL GROW TOGETHER AND HE(THE LORD) WILL SEPARATE..I HAVE A CAUSION FRIEND NAME TABBY SHE FROM OKALAHOMA. AND HER CHURCH IS VERY STRICT THEY CAN NOT CUT THIER HAIR, WEAR MAKE UP, THE MUST HAVE THEIR ARMS COVER ETC. IF AND WHEN I VISIT HER CHURCH I WILL STILL WEAR MY PONY TAIL ,I NEVER WORE MAKE UP AND PRAYFULLY THEY HAVE AIR LOL SO I CAN WEAR LONGSELVES IN THE SUMMER. I HAVE THE LIBERY AS A CHRIST TO DRESS PLEASING ONLY TO THE LORD. BUT IF THEY ARE BOND BY TRADITION.PAUL SAID TO THE GREEK I BECAME GREEK, TO THE JEW I BECAME JEW THAT I MAY WIN SOME TO CHRIST. .IF IT IS OFFENSIVE TO SOME ONE ELSE I WILL NOT OFFEND. HE THAT WIN SOULS IS WISE. .I MADE THE MISTAKE BY TAKING HER TO GET HER HAIR PERMED IT WAS DOWN TO HER BACK SIDE SHE ONLY GOT A LITTLE TRIMMED AND HER NAILS DONE VERY SHORT WITH A VERY LIGHT TAN LOL .NEEDLESS , SHE WENT HOME AND EVERY ONE KNEW EVEN THROUGH SHE HAD IT PULLED UP AND THEY EVEN NOTICED HER NAILS I GUESS WHEN SHE RAISED HE HANDS TO WORSHIP GOD. WELL WHO BOTH WAS IN HELL FIRE LOL I THOUGHT IT WAS MODEST CONSIDERING HOLINESS STANDARDS BUT I THINK THEY ARE HOLT SANTIFIED. BUT IN ALL WE LAUGHED ABOUT IT BUT IT DETER NEITHER OF US . I THOUGHT I WAS A GOOD CHRISTIAN BUT IN THEIR STANDARDS. THIS YOUNG LADY IS IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP AND I WAS ONLY TRYING TO BRING HER SEF ESTEEM UP. BUT HER PARENTS ARE IN THE SAME CHURCH AND THEY LOVE ME. BEause her daughter calls me moses lol because i'm always feeding her in her desert experience. Remember a merry heart maketh good medcine. JUST DO THE WORK GOD CALLED YOU TO DO. WORK WHILE ITS STILL DAY MY SISTER.so people will never change and we have to meet them on the spiritual level they are..

Rabecca - posted on 05/28/2009

I to was raised in a church that you did not wear pants cut your hair wear makeup or jewlery except your wedding band. Maybe thats why since growing in my faith I have come to see those things as objects not as where are hearts really are, and just outward things that seem to be easliy done and not anything to do with who I am in Christ I do believe in being modest humble and gentle of heart ,a speaker of the one true God a witness to many and a example of the grace of God, Turning to him to walk me through my days, Loving and serving others as he loves us those are things that challange me things, that make me reflex on God him daily hourly really and what he asked of us challaging me to seek him and to grow closer to him .

I am not perfect and have made so many mistakes in my life but everyday I draw close to my savior .But I try to remember days when for me there was no I felt like I was unworthy of his love that I had done things that would just never be forgiven even when I knew he forgives all and after returing to the Body of Christ I think he really gave me these trials in my life because I needed to be shown his grace his amazing mercy I knew my whole life but he needed me to feel it .

Maybe because of that I think that so many young people have stepped away from Christ for so many reasons but are we truly giving them the possiblity to feel Gods works in thier own lives who knows the next person you see walking down the street who looks scary or seems to leading this life of destruction that we step to other side of the road or think to our selves" loser, punk" whatever we say to ourselves when we see someone who just seems be so far from our own values. what if we told them of Gods love without any preconceved notions of what we may think of them ? what if that one person you said hi to that you may never look at regularally or invite someone to church that you think might not really come but you keep asking. What if that person was the one God wanted to be the next great man of God to lead our nation back to him or woman of astounding faith but because we did not say anything they never knew his love that breaks my heart I am just sure that in the rubble of our communitys lie these fallen few that may lead millions to him themselves if only we can see past our own judgement of them and tell them his word I see kids everyday that seem so lost I just want to show them a better way and Love beyond what the next boyfriend/girlfriend can give them or what drugs have done for them or what there Father never did for them ( thats the biggest one I see) I just want to love them all back to him but I can tell you alot of them have those jugemental religous family members or bad church experences and have come away with bad ideas of what it means to give your life over to him not knowing that this Savior only wants to take care of us and spoil us really I have been given so many blessings in my life and I truly feel that the more and more I draw close to him the more and more blessing he just dumps on me more than I could have even prayed for. And thats what he speaks so clearly to me it just hurts to have others who I think know his word know his grace not want to share that because they have let thier judgement or thier ideals of what they will and will not except to be around or even just expose themselves to get in the way of showing what he can really do in the lives of some that need him to be a light in thier dark world even if they dont realize thier world is so dark

Min DANITA - posted on 05/28/2009

I WENT TO AN INTER-DOMONATIOIN CHURCH IN PHILADELPHIA. MY FORMER PASTOR PERFERED THAT WE DID NOT WEAR SLACKS IN THE CHURCH OR SPLITS OR REVEALING OR FORM FITTING CLOTHING. AT THE AGE OF 23 IT DID NOT BOTHER MEAND 20 YRS LATER I HAVE THAT SAME PREFERENCE FOR MY DAUGHTERS WHO ARE NOT YET CURVEY AGES 7 AND 4. BUT IT NOT AN ISSUE OF HEAVEN OR HELL . BUT MY THREE SISTERS WHO WAS RAISED IN THE SAME CHURCH UNDER THE SAME PASTOR WEARS PANTS AND MAKE-UP AND THEY ARE SURELY GOING TO HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY LIKE I STRIVE TO BE LIKE CHRIST EVERY DAY AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST IS APPLIED TO THEIR LIVES. THE ONLY TRUE DOCTRINE IS SALVATION R0MANS 10::9,10. GOD HAS ALWAYS HAD A STANDARD FOR HIS PEOPLE, AND HAS ALWAYS MADE IT KNOWN WHAT IS CLEAN AND UNCLEAN. WE SHOULD NOT JUDGE ANYONE FOR CHRIST DIED FOR ALL OF US BUT I DO KNOW THIS ALL RAODS DO NOT LEAD TO HEAVEN NOT . THE HEAVEN WHERE CHRIST WILL BE SEATED ON THE THRONE SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT AND GOATS ON HIS LEFT.ARE YOU AWARE THE ALL WILL NOT GO UP IN THE RAPTURE FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE. IT WILL ONLY BE A REMANT. BE ENCOURAGE WE WILL ALL STAND BEFORE GOD AND GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR THE DEEDS DONE IN OUR BODIES RATHER GOOD OR BAD. WE MUST PRAY FORGIVE AND BE GOOD EXAMPLES. I AM A EXDRUD USER AND SELLER PREPARING TO SHARE THE GOSPEL. GOD GRACE IS A BEUTIFUL THING AND THAT WHAT WE ALL SHOULD CHAT ABOUT. AND ASKING OURSELVES WHAT HAVE WE DONE WITH OUR LIVES AFTER HHE BLEED AND DIED FOR US ON THE CROSS??

Junetta - posted on 05/28/2009

Hey Rabecca! I used to be one of those people in church you're speaking of! It's called "Religion" which makes the word of GOD powerless! I was a sinner and JESUS saved me! I grew in Christ and began to operate in "Religion". I'll tell you it's bad in the body of Christ. Because we forget where God brought us from.We put rules on people without even trying to build a relationship. Which is the one thing we see Jesus doing in the bible! Taking the time to bulid relationships! Rabecca I believe we will always see it in churches because it's a spirit! But on the other hand I believe If you and I will continue to show the love to thoes who are without we can make a diffrence!

Karen - posted on 05/23/2009

The most important commandments we were given were to love the Lord before all others, and love your neighbor as yourself. If we follow these two, then all the rest should fall into place. Pray to God for wisdom in your actions and peace in your heart. THAT is what we need to do to be witnesses! Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to support everything they do. You can make it clear that it is their actions you disapprove of, not the people. Just as EVERY parent has to do with their children when they misbehave. It takes a lot of prayer and patience to be a parent, much less a witness. But with God, ALL things are possible. :-)

Rabecca - posted on 05/22/2009

wow powerful Tam I guess thats what God is always speaking to me about as well that yes sin is bad and yes we need to help those who need to see that and in way way that will show them love and to definalty love them back to him without the tearing down because they are at the low part already and see them for the bueaty that God created us all to be not where they are right now

Tam - posted on 05/22/2009

Patty,

That is so true about correction not condemnation. Guilt is not of God. It's like our children, we correct them because we love them--at least it should be done of love and not guilt or anger. We are human, but thankfully God is full of love and forgiveness and teaches us to walk in His ways.

Christa, yes, we are sinful flesh that need to die to that flesh daily and take up our cross and follow Him. Each day. And just as we aren't perfect, neither is the person sitting in the front pew or the back of the church. Or the grocer or fireman or farmer or businesswoman you might meet on the street. We need to look at them as Christ would see them instead of with our own eyes. That they are able to stumble or fall and we need to be there to love them back to God, not tear them down with our words or actions.

For the past few months God has really been showing me that it is all about love, that you can correct someone, and exhort someone with love and it be more effective than our own ways. And one verse in particular struck me, just today...

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Wow.

That sure makes you really want to love, to be known as His. :)

Rabecca - posted on 05/21/2009

Thank you maybe I felt like we all need a little shaking up I know I do .everytime I think yeah I good God does not fail to teach me no your not you need to learn this or that I always try to look for what he wants me to know latley is patience. It just makes me sad at times that even us with the best intentions may or may not be showing just the opposite of what we want people to think of us (christains) as a whole the other day on TV I actually heard a "christian" tell a gay man that his father beating him to a inch of his life and spouting scriptures the whole time was his punishment for living a life of sin I was really taken back he was crying and in such pain but there was no commpassion in this womans eyes or tone she believed what she was saying which I would never condon sin but he was just a man who needed some assurance that we all do no think that way, that God has a place for all of us and we have all sined against God one way or another I kept thinking what about what Ephesian 4:2 be completly humble and gentle be patient bearing with one another with love. that is one of my favorites and it reminds me of having a calm heart and to approch everyone with kindness we all deserve mercy no matter what . And I took at look at the last few years of my life and noticed when I was guilty of judging others which I have always felt is actually a vaule of mine not to do so but I to of course am guilty of it but I never want to I want everyone to see Gods love and exceptance right away from me

Christa - posted on 05/21/2009

We must remember that Christians are just people, sinful people, and even though we have found Jesus we are not any closer to perfection then anyone else. I think that's why it can be hard for us to witness to other non-believers because people think that Christians should be perfect and when we aren't they say, see they're no better then us, we don't need God. So we just do our best and continually try and do God's will and when we stray we need other Christians to give us a reality check. I want to thank you, Rabecca, for posting this. I needed a reminder to stop being so judgmental, I have been guilty of it lately. :-)

Cheryl - posted on 05/21/2009

Jesus said love one another as I have loved you, but he also told people to go and sin no more. He did not condemn them, he corrected them. He loved the sinner, but not the sin and again, we are to do the same. So we are capable of judging behaviors and actions, we are not capable to judge someones heart, that is reserved to God alone. You can have compassion on your children or others but still lovingly point out they are doing wrong, and invite them to do better. There is no call to persecute anyone for most people sin, but there is no call to accept bad behavior either. So as christians we are not called to be "nice" we are called to be good and they are not equivalent. God accepts all who search for him but there is a catch as someone pointed out : "Indeed, the ethic of inclusion in the gospels could be stated: You can come as you are and leave behind what you can, but you may not stay as you were or do as you will". There is no call to treat sinners badly, but every reason to hate sin. We will only be loved as we love and forgiven as we forgive others, and so must treat others as God treat would treat us - with unconditional love, and gentle correction when needed.

Rabecca - posted on 05/21/2009

I hope you did not take that personally Cheryl I would never asume someone I did not know thinks one way or the other . I do just see alot of judgement these day for all sorts of issues from dress to lifestyle choices to dress to just they way we each worship a little differently all sorts of things I just get mad about it seems like most of the time it is these people who live a very christian life style that get less and less excepting of others who do not and to me it seems like some get so wrapped up in I live like this I pray like this my family dose not do that that they lose sight of seeing past themselves to see others others hurt others struggles and all it takes is someone to make them feel excepted to reach out and show them unconditional exceptance and to let them know there is no condimnation in Christ to ask for forgivness and all is washed away thats it easy . But I think that we could save so much more if some of those past experience of what may seem judgmental attitudes are not excepted by us as believers that we will welcome anyone God wants us to be able to bring others to him but alot of us have a fear of people or places that and we show it in our speach in our actions even if we dont fell that in our hearts and thats what the world see is our speach and our attitudes

Cheryl - posted on 05/21/2009

What people wear counts for absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.



I never said anything about judging anyones outward appearance, I said we can judge actions, and only God can judge our hearts.

Rabecca - posted on 05/20/2009

Quoting Jennifer:

We should totally love everyone but I think theres a time where you teach others about God, the bible and his ways of living. The bible says everything quite clear about gays and everything that this nation is going through. I would say not to judge them and hate them for it but to guide them to whats right through being loving and showing Gods grace that way.

Thats really what I wanted to say too that yes there are those who live outside of  the word and yes there life style is not what God wants for them but we do not welcome these people to our churches we dont embrace them in Gods love. I think we have steped so far away from these things that is why our counrt has fallen so far from grace sorry guess I have lots to say about this

Laura - posted on 05/20/2009

Quoting Rabecca:

Cheryl I believe you are right we do judge our children everyday we want them to follow us in having a reationship with God and to be strong men and women of faith and charater.But part of that strong charater I want my kid to show is to not judge on outward apperances to look into peoples hearts to listen to God word and love thy nieghbor. It's not laws and goverment that I fear it's someones narrow views on what they think about themsevles as followers of christ and what is going on in the minds of some christians today of thier right or wrong with what people wear how they look even in thier actions because you never know what happened in ther lives to bring them to wher they are now one thing that has always stuck with me was something I learned very young is that you are only as strong as your support system and some people dont have anyone to call when things get rough or someone to count on when they need help,and just dont know to turn to God because of not growing up that way or just not understanding so in turn can turn to those who dont care who take advantage or bring them to a life they may have never thought of entering and if I can show them them the light without them being in fear of judgement of rejection than thats who I want to be thats what I beileve thats what Gods wants from all of us no matter if we cut our hair wear makeup talk in tongues, dedicate, all sorts of what we feel is correct from small to large things whatever are those things they are not important to who we truly are in Christ but we make them such an issue when they have nothing to with much just things that make us feel closer to what God asks of us but he asks so much more those seem to be the things that we hold on to and judge others by because they are easy to do. and easy to see that others do or do not do.We are all Gods children all sinners but as Christains we need to find away past all the other stuff and show people who truly need to find God a way. I do think there is a new movement from the body of Christ to be real with God a shaking up if you will .Jesus did get angry he did strike out in the temple but if you think about he was angry at those in charge of his Fathers house I think he is angry again I think we have let us be blinded by some of those who are ment to lead us and be our teacher of his word and have lost sight of the real meaning of being Christains the uncondtional love Jesus showed us by dying on the cross thats not just for you and me it was for all the world all of us on this earth now and for the rest of time and for us to bring people to that love by being living examples of it

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Rabecca - posted on 05/20/2009

Cheryl I believe you are right we do judge our children everyday we want them to follow us in having a reationship with God and to be strong men and women of faith and charater.But part of that strong charater I want my kid to show is to not judge on outward apperances to look into peoples hearts to listen to God word and love thy nieghbor. It's not laws and goverment that I fear it's someones narrow views on what they think about themsevles as followers of christ and what is going on in the minds of some christians today of thier right or wrong with what people wear how they look even in thier actions because you never know what happened in ther lives to bring them to wher they are now one thing that has always stuck with me was something I learned very young is that you are only as strong as your support system and some people dont have anyone to call when things get rough or someone to count on when they need help,and just dont know to turn to God because of not growing up that way or just not understanding so in turn can turn to those who dont care who take advantage or bring them to a life they may have never thought of entering and if I can show them them the light without them being in fear of judgement of rejection than thats who I want to be thats what I beileve thats what Gods wants from all of us no matter if we cut our hair wear makeup talk in tongues, dedicate, all sorts of what we feel is correct from small to large things whatever are those things they are not important to who we truly are in Christ but we make them such an issue when they have nothing to with much just things that make us feel closer to what God asks of us but he asks so much more those seem to be the things that we hold on to and judge others by because they are easy to do. and easy to see that others do or do not do.We are all Gods children all sinners but as Christains we need to find away past all the other stuff and show people who truly need to find God a way. I do think there is a new movement from the body of Christ to be real with God a shaking up if you will .Jesus did get angry he did strike out in the temple but if you think about he was angry at those in charge of his Fathers house I think he is angry again I think we have let us be blinded by some of those who are ment to lead us and be our teacher of his word and have lost sight of the real meaning of being Christains the uncondtional love Jesus showed us by dying on the cross thats not just for you and me it was for all the world all of us on this earth now and for the rest of time and for us to bring people to that love by being living examples of it

Jennifer - posted on 05/20/2009

We should totally love everyone but I think theres a time where you teach others about God, the bible and his ways of living. The bible says everything quite clear about gays and everything that this nation is going through. I would say not to judge them and hate them for it but to guide them to whats right through being loving and showing Gods grace that way.

Tam - posted on 05/19/2009

Patty, I agree with you about the shaking. In fact, I believe it's already starting. That spirit of legalism is going to be bound and broken in such a way that is going to truly glorify God. I think more and more people are understanding that there are certain things that are "general" conviction and belief, central to accepting salvation and living life for God and yet there are personal convictions that you cannot place on other people. For instance, one lady is convicted of going to tanning beds because of her family history of skin cancer and taking the extra precautions to protect the temple of God. Or, I could have a conviction that would never cross your mind because it is a weakness in my heart and soul that God wants me to be on guard for that you might not have any issues with.

The most important thing is that we all keep our eyes on God as much as we possibly can, pray and serve (through good and bad/growth times) and try to follow Christ's example in our daily walks. Pray, read the Word and listen for that small still voice.

And I just read a great book about false prophets. It's called Thus Saith the Lord (sorry, don't remember the author's name, think it was John Bevere). He talks about the differences between Biblical prophets and false prophets of today and the spiritual and even physical devastation they wreak on people's lives and the church. He gives some things to look for if you "receive a word." For months this subject has been on my heart as I see a rise in Christian ministers and prophets who lead these huge churches yet don't teach the full gospel or take away from it. This book confirmed a lot of things the Spirit laid on my heart about false prophets.

Cheryl - posted on 05/19/2009

Well if you want to get technical about it, Jesus certainly judged the Pharisees behavior because they were hypocrites and He did take a whip to the moneychangers at the Temple, so He did quite a bit of actual judging. Love has consequences.

Patty - posted on 05/19/2009

I know exactly what you mean. Many christians are getting discernment confused with judgement. That's where the spirit of religion enters the picture...the spirit of religion is when you are tricked to believing that you have to dress, talk, act, look, etc. a certain way and anyone who is not walking in line with these beliefs are damned to hell. At least that's the way a friend's pastor views things. That's the problem with the churches today and God is really getting tired of it and He is going to start shaking up the churches in ways we couldn't even begin to phathom. This shaking that He's going to do is going to reveal the true body of Christ and the "false prophets" that the bible has warned about. All we can do is walk just as Jesus walked...He never judged anyone nor condemned anyone...He just loved them!

Cheryl - posted on 05/19/2009

There is a difference between judging actions and judging hearts. As parents we judge actions every day, come to a conclusion and give consequences for those actions. We do this for the rest of the world as well, and there is nothing wrong with that, otherwise we would not have police or courts of law or be capable of judging what is good or evil. However, the one thing we cannot do and is reserved to God alone, is to judge the heart. Only God can weigh the good and evil intent of our actions, we can only judge the externals.

Laura - posted on 05/19/2009

Quoting Rabecca:

I can really understand where you were coming from my sister had her frist at 15 and yes there were those who look at her as an outcast never mind the fact that she had a great support system parents who loved her no matter what she made a bad choice but one bad choice does not have to dictate who you are and where your life can go from there and she has always been a great mom no matter what age she became one at. she finished high school on time went to nursing school and got married and had 2 more kids she has a wonderful husband and you would think that there would be this out pouring of love and help from the church but really that was not the case we stuck together as a family and things went really well for all of us we paryed for guideance and just held tight to what we knew was the truth.God does have a plan and purpose for all of our lives he test and tries our faith everyday he may give us something to deal with that may seem hard or bring people into our lives that need love and support and may have gone against God in someway or another that just need a hand to follow the right path to show them that God is in fact ther and that all things work for good for those who love the Lord teen parenting, divorce we dont know what God has in store for any of us and yes these things may be there to teach us a leason or to test our faith we dont know Gods reasoning behind any of it but really isnti t our job to just love eachother and have faith in Gods plan and to praise him even in the toughest situations not to question judge, blame , or reject peple because of situations they have found themselves in .18 years ago my sister gave birth to my first nephew I love that kid so much, he, even been giving to a mother of 15 has been a light and a blessing to our family and a joy to waltch grow

I am gald to hear to that you supported each other as a family. In my case my mom wasn't there for crap, but my dad was and so was his side of the family. But I'm also glad to know that I'm not the only one out there who went through the same thing with the church. From the sounds of it your sister is lucky just like me. I never finished high school, but I am working on my GED and looking at schools to become a CNA. My husband has a good job and he's just awesome all together. I'm proud to be a mother and let your sister know that I'm proud to know that she's a good mother no matter what people said.

Rabecca - posted on 05/19/2009

I can really understand where you were coming from my sister had her frist at 15 and yes there were those who look at her as an outcast never mind the fact that she had a great support system parents who loved her no matter what she made a bad choice but one bad choice does not have to dictate who you are and where your life can go from there and she has always been a great mom no matter what age she became one at. she finished high school on time went to nursing school and got married and had 2 more kids she has a wonderful husband and you would think that there would be this out pouring of love and help from the church but really that was not the case we stuck together as a family and things went really well for all of us we paryed for guideance and just held tight to what we knew was the truth.God does have a plan and purpose for all of our lives he test and tries our faith everyday he may give us something to deal with that may seem hard or bring people into our lives that need love and support and may have gone against God in someway or another that just need a hand to follow the right path to show them that God is in fact ther and that all things work for good for those who love the Lord teen parenting, divorce we dont know what God has in store for any of us and yes these things may be there to teach us a leason or to test our faith we dont know Gods reasoning behind any of it but really isnti t our job to just love eachother and have faith in Gods plan and to praise him even in the toughest situations not to question judge, blame , or reject peple because of situations they have found themselves in .18 years ago my sister gave birth to my first nephew I love that kid so much, he, even been giving to a mother of 15 has been a light and a blessing to our family and a joy to waltch grow

Laura - posted on 05/19/2009

You are exactly right. I also know first hand. I grew up Christian and was taught that you should love one another and be there when needed. But then when my parents got divorced and I moved in with my dad nobody wanted to talk to me. When my dad took my brother to see the head pastor because he was having a hard time with the divorce he told my brother that the only reason he was there was because he was going to say what my dad wanted him to say when my brother was the one who asked to go. When I got pregnant at 17 they kept saying how my husband was going to be abusive and leave me and our baby. And that never happened.

I'm not the most perfect person in the world and I do judge others. I try not to, but there are times when you can't really help yourself. I'm a good mother, my husband is an awesome father and husband, and 6 years later now they're starting to understand why I love my husband so much. I grew up in that church and the fact that they ditched me and never wanted to talk to me made me feel like I'm not good enough to be a good mother. They knew how much I loved kids and wanted them. And before I left I was the only one from the youth group that most people trusted to watch their kids in the nursery or sunday school.

Yes, Christians have gotten a lot more judgmental of others especially of the ones who aren't doing the same thing that they are. They get very defensive when people say that they don't go to church, don't believe, won't raise their kids in the church, and a lot of other things.

Ever since I left I've been thinking and watching people. I come to the conclusion that no matter what religion you are you think you're always right and everyone else is always wrong. I will say that to a point I still have my faith. My husband and I are very different when it comes to religion. We have some of the same views, and we also butt heads on some views.

To be honest I don't consider a religious parent a bad parent. I will also admit that after hearing so many times that you need to pray or you should pray about it and wait for an answer my whole life I got sick of it. In the Bible God gives trials and tribulations. Christians believe that as well. I also believe that He does that to teach us that we don't always need His help and that we can do things without His approval. Christians also believe that God has a plan for everyone and a reason for anything. I don't think anyone in my moms church thought about that before they decided to ignore me like the plague. I believe that me having my first baby so early was His plan for me to believe in myself and my abilities as a person.

Tam - posted on 05/15/2009

Rebecca, I know I've had to stop and ask for forgiveness for judging, and try to learn what people are about. Sometimes it's easier than others, but try to always be on guard for it.

Think you're right. It's not been about love for a lot of people for a long time. And it seems that we tend to be harshest on others in the body than we are on those who don't believe. It's no wonder the body of Christ is hurting so bad when we can't even get along and love like Christ taught us. If I were on the outside looking in I wouldn't want to be part of the "group" either, ya know?

Especially when some people can't understand why you believe the way they do versus their way, our fleshly defenses go up and want to post and offense. The problem is if it had been questioned in love, it would have gone a lot better. I know there is a thread in another circle where I (an Evangelical) and a wonderful Catholic woman have been discuss the differences in our beliefs. With an exception to a mistake I made and owned up to, prayed forgiveness over, it has been very enlightening for both of us and I think it's because we both know there is genuine interest in the person and love coming through on both sides, not judgement.

I was in the church almost since birth, but "wandered" for a few years. Not from God, still prayed and believed, but because of some judgemental people in the church I was hurt and betrayed and ended up having anxiety attacks at the thought of entering a church. Thankfully God has led me and my family to a very loving church who teaches sound doctrine and welcomes anyone who walks in the doors with open arms and a genuine interest in them, as people. All so they can show Christ's love in the way it was meant to be shared.

I think legalism has taken such a root in our churches and lives that it is dividing us. It has also created such a spirit of Me-ism within our lives, because when we judge we "compare" them to our idea of good or right or whatever. We forget that God loves every single person on this earth, not just the "good" ones. We take our eyes off God.

Doctrine can be good. God is much much much better and He is Love! He is all we need and when we set aside the doctrine and try to get into His word and try to walk where He leads, I think we grow less judgemental. Or we see it right away and can repent right away and make amends. Be it a hate or harsh judgement or just a superficial judgement on appearance, not just how they look, but how they are (like thinking someone is happy when if you knew them you'd know they were hurting).

About six months ago when I actually listened to what God was telling me, I realized that it was all about Him and His love. That when I strive to live with my eyes on Him and His love in my heart, it becomes less about self and more able to touch the lives of others.

Rabecca - posted on 05/15/2009

Thanks and I do think you are very right about the negative light that the media puts on christians too. I do think how wrong some are to actions are that of hate and violence in the guise of thier sick interpatation of Gods word but that has been going on since the crusades or longer and yes today there are still those acting in hate spouting scipture so I can see where some people who do not know Christ can see that and think" oh no that is not for me". And yes that does make me hold to what I believe even more and I try really hard not jugde others for what they believe and just pray really hard for those I know need to find Christ.But what I worry about is the negativity that some believers do honestly show the not loving our enermies the not forgving our trust passers I mean lets say those living a life of promiscuity do we reach out to these people or turn a blind eye to them do we sneer at them and make comments that they should be ashamed of themselves never knowing what lead them to where they are today. Or a person who maybe in church going through a divorce alot of times feel shuned instead of getting the empathy you would hope to be shown. I dont know sometimes I just very tried of seeing those I feel should know better acting in ways of such ignorance and hate and non empathy that they actally start to be the ones who may be offending God more than those who dont know the word I mean if you think about it who did Jesus have the most issues with it was the "religous" leaders of then are we as relgious people of today falling to the same trappings would he be offended by us and by what we are showing the world I would have to say yes I hate to generalize because yes alot of us as christains get it. I would say we should all do alittle searching of our hearts a little filtering of our comments alittle emapthy to those who may not have the right tools ( Christ, Faith,ect.. ) to live according to the word of God and a little less of casting of stones and I think we could have a real revival in this country. This just again my take on what I have seen and maybe just my concerns but I love God and I want everyone to have what I have and I see all the time people who just think we are snobs or think we believe on this ridged line that does not allow others who have faults into or lives I certainally do not want to be the one to portray that ideal of what it is to be a christain to the world or just in my community

Carolee - posted on 05/15/2009

Hello Rabecca . My name is Carolee. Some christians have just lost their ability to be able to speak in ways that people would be interested in or even understand . These Bible thumpers may even know a lot of scriptures, but don't seem to understand the purpose or love behind any of them . People sometimes forget that the Bible is here to serve us and NOT the reverse . The Bible is not a club it's the good news that sets us free. God is not freaked out about "sin". Everyone falls short of their potential . He is interested in us being truly happy and he knows" sin" distracts us . GET YOUR HOPE UP because I see all around a new breed of grace filled people who know the TRUE character of God and know how to communicate the ways of wisdom to others in their actions and words :D Carolee

Christa - posted on 05/15/2009

I think you are absolutely right, I know I'm guilty of judging people even when I try hard not too. Although I do feel like I keep it "within the family" if you will, I never (at least I try not) to openly judge someone to their face. But on a broader spectrum I think part of the reason it appears that Christians are judgmental is because our society if getting so far from it's Christian roots that to be a Christian in today’s society is un "PC". I think the liberal mainstream media takes any believers comments and portrays them in a negative light even if that was never the intent/context. I also feel like to say you are a Christian or speak your beliefs you are automatically labeled as judgmental.



I feel like I'm immediately on the defensive whenever it comes up because "we" do have that judgmental reputation, and once you're on the defensive I think you start becoming more judgmental. It's a vicious cycle. And it doesn't help when you have the "crazy Christians" like the people that protest military funerals because there are gays in the military. What kind of Christian does that!?!?! It's people like that that perpetuate the cycle.



At our church a few months back I sat through a great sermon about how Christians are perceived as such a closed minded group. Where the other religions/"spiritualities” are so open and loving and all are accepted "as long as you are nice and a good person". He made a great point that in those types of beliefs there is such a broad range of interpretation that it can leave people lost. Where as in Christianity it is very clear, the only way is through Jesus Christ. We aren't closed minded anybody can accept him and we'll tell you exactly how to do it. That's pretty easy! Ever since I heard that sermon I've looked at my approach to non-believers that way. I just try and stick to the basic truth.

Christa - posted on 05/15/2009

I think you are absolutely right, I know I'm guilty of judging people even when I try hard not too. Although I do feel like I keep it "within the family" if you will, I never (at least I try not) to openly judge someone to their face. But on a broader spectrum I think part of the reason it appears that Christians are judgmental is because our society if getting so far from it's Christian roots that to be a Christian in today’s society is un "PC". I think the liberal mainstream media takes any believers comments and portrays them in a negative light even if that was never the intent/context. I also feel like to say you are a Christian or speak your beliefs you are automatically labeled as judgmental.



I feel like I'm immediately on the defensive whenever it comes up because "we" do have that judgmental reputation, and once you're on the defensive I think you start becoming more judgmental. It's a vicious cycle. And it doesn't help when you have the "crazy Christians" like the people that protest military funerals because there are gays in the military. What kind of Christian does that!?!?! It's people like that that perpetuate the cycle.



At our church a few months back I sat through a great sermon about how Christians are perceived as such a closed minded group. Where the other religions/"spiritualities” are so open and loving and all are accepted "as long as you are nice and a good person". He made a great point that in those types of beliefs there is such a broad range of interpretation that it can leave people lost. Where as in Christianity it is very clear, the only way is through Jesus Christ. We aren't closed minded anybody can accept him and we'll tell you exactly how to do it. That's pretty easy! Ever since I heard that sermon I've looked at my approach to non-believers that way. I just try and stick to the basic truth.