Beginner in need of serious help!

Patty - posted on 12/22/2008 ( 36 moms have responded )

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I decided a while ago that I was going to use cloth diapers on my children. Well I am now expecting my first and started doing some research on them. Unfortunately everytime I go to a site its so full of informaion and now I am confused more than ever. What type of diapers are the best ones to use? What is the difference between a pre-fold, fitted, all in one, and homemade? Which are easier pins, snaps, or velcro? I noticed that some use liners and others don't and some require a cover, how can I tell which ones do? Thank you in advance for any help!!

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Ashley - posted on 02/03/2009

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I like my bum genius one size pocket diapers so yoou do not have to keep buy more sizes

Patty - posted on 02/02/2009

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Thank you to everyone who has given me advice and for the variety of information!!  I have decided to start out with prefolds and try various types from there.  Now its just on to figure out what detergent and how to wash in my front-loader.  I currently use tide hypoallergenic in my HE washer, is this ok to use on the diapers?  I would like to be able to use a single detergant for all of my washing.  Any additional advice is more than greatly appreciated!!

Crystal - posted on 01/30/2009

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I have been using Bummis for 7 months.  They have velco and come in different styles and sizes. I have 5 covers (they were about $11/each), and I launder everyother day. I use mircofiber automotive towels from Costco and a strip of fleece as my inserts (super inexpensive)! I have a regular diaper pail with a lid that I line with a wet sack. I throw the sack in with the diapers to wash.



Bummis worked fine when we only used them for 3 months before needing a bigger size. we like the ease of the velcro.  Now my daughter has been in the same size for almost 6 or 7 months and the velcro is starting to lose its grip.



They haven't fallen off, but i'm thinking it will happen someday! Also, the Bummis shouldn't go in the dryer- they do dry fast though.



You can use the liners in any diaper cover, even an All-In-One system.  Then you don't need so many covers and its much less expense.



 

Julie - posted on 01/30/2009

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I have a question about stuffing the pocket dipes. I made one from an online pattern and bought a "kit" online for the materials. It turned out pretty darn good, but I put the 2 layers (tri folded) inside and it leaked all over DD's bed the first time. It is a layer of flannel and something else that is fuzzier, maybe wool?



what is the BEST most absorbent thing to stuff these things with? I also cannot spend tons of money, but hate to have such cute dipes, that leak! I only made 2 of them... I have pics of DD wearing them, but I don't know how to post them here. I will try tho.



 



http://picasaweb.google.com/Mamabearto5/...



 



Please let me know what you think...



Thanks Julie



 



Quoting Lisa:

I am another huge fan of Fuzzi Bunz pocket diapers. However, as others mentioned you will need to experiment to find the ones for you. A lot will depend on the size of your baby (Is your baby skinny, plump... Is their rise short, long) to determine which diaper fits best on your little one. Definitely use liners as they help with cleanups and they help protect your diapers from staining!! Good luc





 

Julie - posted on 01/30/2009

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I have a question about stuffing the pocket dipes. I made one from an online pattern and bought a "kit" online for the materials. It turned out pretty darn good, but I put the 2 layers (tri folded) inside and it leaked all over DD's bed the first time. It is a layer of flannel and something else that is fuzzier, maybe wool?



what is the BEST most absorbent thing to stuff these things with? I also cannot spend tons of money, but hate to have such cute dipes, that leak! I only made 2 of them... I have pics of DD wearing them, but I don't know how to post them here. I will try tho.



 



http://picasaweb.google.com/Mamabearto5/...



 



Please let me know what you think...



Thanks Julie



 



Quoting Lisa:

I am another huge fan of Fuzzi Bunz pocket diapers. However, as others mentioned you will need to experiment to find the ones for you. A lot will depend on the size of your baby (Is your baby skinny, plump... Is their rise short, long) to determine which diaper fits best on your little one. Definitely use liners as they help with cleanups and they help protect your diapers from staining!! Good luc





 

Julie - posted on 01/30/2009

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I have a question about stuffing the pocket dipes. I made one from an online pattern and bought a "kit" online for the materials. It turned out pretty darn good, but I put the 2 layers (tri folded) inside and it leaked all over DD's bed the first time. It is a layer of flannel and something else that is fuzzier, maybe wool?



what is the BEST most absorbent thing to stuff these things with? I also cannot spend tons of money, but hate to have such cute dipes, that leak! I only made 2 of them... I have pics of DD wearing them, but I don't know how to post them here. I will try tho.



 



http://picasaweb.google.com/Mamabearto5/...



 



Please let me know what you think...



Thanks Julie



 



Quoting Lisa:

I am another huge fan of Fuzzi Bunz pocket diapers. However, as others mentioned you will need to experiment to find the ones for you. A lot will depend on the size of your baby (Is your baby skinny, plump... Is their rise short, long) to determine which diaper fits best on your little one. Definitely use liners as they help with cleanups and they help protect your diapers from staining!! Good luc





 

Julie - posted on 01/30/2009

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I have a question about stuffing the pocket dipes. I made one from an online pattern and bought a "kit" online for the materials. It turned out pretty darn good, but I put the 2 layers (tri folded) inside and it leaked all over DD's bed the first time. It is a layer of flannel and something else that is fuzzier, maybe wool?



what is the BEST most absorbent thing to stuff these things with? I also cannot spend tons of money, but hate to have such cute dipes, that leak! I only made 2 of them... I have pics of DD wearing them, but I don't know how to post them here. I will try tho.



 



http://picasaweb.google.com/Mamabearto5/...



 



Please let me know what you think...



Thanks Julie



 



Quoting Lisa:

I am another huge fan of Fuzzi Bunz pocket diapers. However, as others mentioned you will need to experiment to find the ones for you. A lot will depend on the size of your baby (Is your baby skinny, plump... Is their rise short, long) to determine which diaper fits best on your little one. Definitely use liners as they help with cleanups and they help protect your diapers from staining!! Good luc





 

Lisa - posted on 01/29/2009

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You have a lot of information here from other moms, but I thought I would add my two cents too.  We use FUZZI BUNZ.  We have been using them since our son was born over a year ago. They have snaps and they are made for easy sizing.  They dont leak; we all know nothing is full proof however.  They prevent diaper rash.  They are defintiely worth the investment.   These do not require covers because everthing is built into one.  There is a liner however, that you remove to wash the diapers.  They are very easy to wash.  We usually do them when our baby goes to bed and they are done and ready to go before we go to bed.  We love the cloth diapers.  If you have any other questions, please email me at clothdiaperdepot@yahoo.com   We actually started selling them because we loved them so much.  If you have any questions about them, please let me know.

Julie - posted on 01/28/2009

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I just sewed my first EVER diaper for my 2.5 yr old... who only wears dipes when sleeping at this point.

I will be making some for my 9 mos old as well. Look online for a site that offers kits of supplies to make the kind of dipe you want. I made a pocket diaper.

It was pretty simple, but the online directions I used were a little vague.. but certainly not hard to make your own. It cost me about 7bucks per dipe and now I know how to do it.

Eileen - posted on 01/28/2009

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if you still feel overwhelmed by allt he info..(Vilate's post  was amazing!)



Go to your local shop that carries them.. touch, fell, ask, then go online look ofr  some second hand... sanitize them , and give them a try.. decide what works for you!



I preferred flat flannel with wool covers when he was small...



velcro pockets as he grew... and so did his bladder ...and ...wel... yeah that too..



And now were at a point where he will not leave his diaper on!! so..i'm looking into the wool longies again.... maybe he wont get them off so easily? at least at night?



snappi's are great for any little prewalker..but i personally found that as they get more and more active, the snappi tends to slip..esp from flannels.. and of course, they are very easily removed intentionally by a toddler who would rather run naked anyway...we're back to pins... just to try to keep it on..lol...



 

Stephanie - posted on 01/16/2009

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I recommend visiting www.allaboutclothdiapers.com and www.diaperpin.com
These websites were truly helpful when I was clueless about cloth diapering.

[deleted account]

One thing to keep in mind--there are as perhaps just as many different ways of cloth diapering as there are mothering.   Give yourself some time and you'll develop your own system and your own preferences.



Keep in mind, too, that having a new baby, especially your first, can hard enough without adding the extra stress of diapering (and laundering).  Keep trying until you find out what works, but if you find yourself a little overwhelmed you might consider using some disposables for the first week or so (l'm sure there will be plenty who may disagree with me on this, and I'm sure that this comment thread will now find a second life in debating this point).  But I wouldn't want you to get so frustrated that you swear off cloth entirely.



I'm not suggesting that cloth diapers are inherently frustrating (in fact, I find them much less stressful than disposables, because I don't worry about the money I'm throwing away, or the landfill I'm filling up, or if I'll be running out in the middle of the night and need to get to the grocery store, or what chemicals I'm exposing my kids to).  I'm just saying there may be plenty of other details to be worrying about without throwing in trying to decide which diaper may be working or not, and trying to get laundry done if you are sleep-deprived.  More power to you if you have an easy labor and lots of help--but my babies don't come into the world so easily and I've learned not to be so hard on myself in those first days (having just had my 3rd cloth-diapered baby only weeks ago).

Kate - posted on 01/04/2009

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Patty -- most places will tell you if the diapers need snappis or covers. If they have PUL on the outside, or any kind of fastener, you won't need that stuff. Probably a trial pack will come with some covers and snappis though. Just ask wherever you order!

Patty - posted on 01/04/2009

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Thank you very much for the help everyone!! There is more information here than I ever expected. After much debate I think I am going to go with trial packs of each to see which I like best and just use a prefold for the newborn stage. Would it be correct to assume that I will need snappis or pins and a cover to use these? I just feel like I might be forgetting something. Thanks again ladies!

Kate - posted on 01/04/2009

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I sew all my own and it is WELL worth it. Cheaper and I've designed my diapers to fit my baby. I would recommend pockets with snaps. I have used prefolds, fitteds, fitted pockets, with snaps and velcro. I've never used pins but I did use snappis. I LOVE my pockets with snaps. They fit well, the baby can't take them off. They don't need a cover, they unstuff in the wash so they get really clean. I don't have a recommendation on brands as I sew my own but that's definitely the style I'd recommend. I think it's hard to pick with your first baby because you don't know what his/her build is going to be. I have heard Fuzzi Bunz are not good with skinny babies. Buy a "trial pack" on a website and then order more of whatever you like the best.

Kyce - posted on 01/01/2009

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Just wanted to add that cloth diapering is one of the most satisfying things I've ever done. It is much easier than I imagined--effortless, really. Good luck and enjoy.

Amanda - posted on 12/31/2008

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we are a happy heiny family. I use them on both my 18 month old and 3 month old. we use the one size pocket and they are great. They also come with 2 inserts, and run about $19.00 apeice. I order mine through www.kellyscloset.com.

Erin - posted on 12/31/2008

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It all comes down to preference. I'd try getting a sample pack to start then you can use the diapers and see what you like. But you can't go wrong with a prefold, snapi and a water proof cover. Those are our backups. The snapi is great. We use pockets about 90% of the time (fuzzi bunz) they are easier more like a disposable. Try this blog for information, www.theclothdiaperwhisperer.blogspot.com.

Kyce - posted on 12/31/2008

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Wow! this really is a CD obsessed community. I love it! For a newborn I think that a dozen prefolds, a dozen fitted diapers ( I used kissaluvs) and a half dozen covers (Bummis are no nonsense) in newborn sizes. Prefolds are surprisingly easy to use, and the price is unbeatable considering your baby will outgrow them very quickly (mine did by three months.) We still keep larger prefolds around, but primarily use a dozen fuzzi buns. These came so highly recommended from almost everyone who uses them, and I have absolutely no complaints--they are worth the money, especially if you invest in mediums. Once the baby grows into them you won't need another diaper.

Lisa - posted on 12/28/2008

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I am another huge fan of Fuzzi Bunz pocket diapers. However, as others mentioned you will need to experiment to find the ones for you. A lot will depend on the size of your baby (Is your baby skinny, plump... Is their rise short, long) to determine which diaper fits best on your little one. Definitely use liners as they help with cleanups and they help protect your diapers from staining!! Good luc

Emily - posted on 12/27/2008

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Some stores offer a trial pack with different styles so that you can experiment and figure out which work best for you before committing to a major purchase. We're using Bummis prefolds with Bummis super brite covers and some Bamboozles which works really well for us!

Jasmine - posted on 12/27/2008

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my best advise is to stay away from velcro. i have several types of cloth and find that the velcro deteriorates quickly and then sticks to everything in the washer and dryer. I personally prefer the mother ease diapers. these are fitted diapers with snaps that you can snap in additional liners if needed. they can be folded to fit newborn up to 18 mos. they are made in Canada with cotton grown in the US, quite affordable too at about 10$ each (bamboo is about 15$ each). we never have a leak unless the cover isn't put all the way over the diaper (DH's specialty) http://www.mother-ease.com/

[deleted account]

i was also overwhelmed with the world of cloth diapers when i first started researching. even after i bought enough to start, i didn't fully understand everything until my baby was born and we started using them.

while i was still pregnant and after talking with a friend who uses cloth diapers, we decided to buy a variety of them for our baby girl. i think it was the best advice. we started with some prefolds, fitteds, all-in-ones, and a variety of brands from each category. we're about to order more diapers now that our daughter is four months and has just about outgrown most of hers. our favorites are the bumgenius organic one-size. they fit all our needs. they're organic which is better for the environment. they're one size and will last until our baby's no longer in diapers. they are very effective and we haven't had any leaks! the bumgenius website has links to their retailers around the world.

good luck!

Marissa - posted on 12/23/2008

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Like you, I was very overwhelmed. But don't get yourself worked up about it, you just kinda have to give it a spin and find out as you go along. I use several kinds of cloth diapers. The most convenient, and cheapest, is using a prefold and a diaper cover. A prefold is basically a thick piece of cloth (alot of people use prefolds for burp cloths). It is typically tri-folded (folded in 3) and then placed (like a sanitary pad!) inside a diaper cover (like underwear). A diaper cover is usually a water-proof material that sorta of looks like a throw-away diaper, and is secured with velcro (just like disposables have tape). The convenient thing about going this route is that pre-folds take the least amount of time to dry in your dryer. AIO's (all in ones) are used just like disposable, except the cool thing about them is that you can reuse them! They are basically the diaper cover (as mentioned above) and the prefold (as mentioned above) ALL IN ONE! Hence the name "All in One". These are the most convenient as they mimick disposable pretty close. There are so many brands, my favorite are Swaddlebees, and Bum Genius. The only drawback is that they take about 2 drying cycles (High heat) to dry since they are thick and everything is in one piece. The prefold is essentially attached inside the layer of the dipaer, which is again, a waterproof material. I have made several home made cloth dipe covers out of fleece, and wool fashioned out of recycled clothing. Do somer research on wool, cuz I can go on even longer about wool soakers. My best advice is just try them all! Shoot for one type at first, the cheapest are prefolds (go to baby section in Target, Gerber birdseye PF's are 8 bucks for a pack of 6) and then look into some diaper cover retailers online. Try craigslist!!! Lots of mom's sell their newborn diaper covers when their infants grow out of them! This will for sure help you get started. The costs to get started might seems a bit daunting, but in the long run you are saving soooo much more money and it's better for the planet!!! Best of all, you never have to run out to the store on an emergency run for diapers. Trust me, you will catch up to the rest of the cloth diapering community in no time flat! You just have to get started somewhere, and you will see what I mean. All of a sudden U will become an expert, and then want to get other types of cloth diapers to try out, and then more and more! Reading about it, and not actually applying it yet on your baby is what is overwhelming you. Don't overload yourself, get about 2 dozen prefolds from Target (or even better, order some Chinese Prefolds online) and maybe 7-10 "pro-wraps diaper covers" and you will prepared for your new bundle!

Erin - posted on 12/23/2008

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This tutorial is pretty helpful http://www.jilliansdrawers.com/tutorial1... I really like this website too because they usually give their 2 cents about each diaper in it's description. I started out with BumGenius because they're similar to disposables. It was easy to branch out from there. Good luck!

Jessica - posted on 12/23/2008

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I agree with the others who said to try to get a sample pack from one of the online stores and try out the different types. I bought a ton of BumGenius 3.0s in the beginning (a one-size fits all pocket diaper) b/c lots of moms rave about them. Turns out I hated them. They just didn't work on my little girl. After a lot of experimenting, we just used prefolds and covers for a while, and then we slowly switched to fitteds, which I love.

User - posted on 12/23/2008

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I use MotherEase. They're great because they are adjustable - one size fits all. Since they are fitted, they don't leak like pre-folds can.

Chris - posted on 12/22/2008

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My best advice to someone new to cloth diapering is to buy a variety pack with the different types of diapers. I got started by using Jilliansdrawers.com try it for $10 program. For an initial investment of $100, they will send you a variety pack of prefolds (need cover), fitteds (need cover), pockets (no cover), a cover, and an all-in-one (no cover). Then you can use them for 21 days to decide what you like. After the 21 days, you send back what you don't want and they will refund all but $10.



Prefolds are very economical. Pockets are very convient but expensive. Fitteds are nice if you want to use wool covers. My husband hated a 2-tiered diapering system (diaper + cover) when we got started, so we mainly had pockets (Happy Heinys and BumGenius). After about 1 year, we needed to replenish our supply and so I bought mainly prefolds b/c I'm now a sahm and $$ is tight. I would definately use a snappi with the prefolds and avoid the pins. I prefer diapers with velcro b/c they are quicker to get on and off. However, toddlers have a much harder time undoing snaps. I have some of both.



If you can find a brick and mortar store, that is also helpful. If you can't find one in your area, call one on-line. The ladies at Jilliansdrawers.com have answered my questions several times and are very knowledgeable and helpful.



Just a side note: No offense to WAHMs that make cloth diapers, but I've had a lot of trouble with wicking (clothes getting wet) when I've used their pocket diapers. Try homemade diapers first before you order very many b/c I haven't had the best of luck with them as compared to the BumGenius or other pocket diapers.



What you buy really depends on your wants and your budget...no one can tell you what will work for you and your family. It is a lot of trial and error to find what works best for you. That is why I recommend the trial pack to everyone that is new to cloth.



Good luck!

Cory - posted on 12/22/2008

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Many diaper sites have sample packs. That is what I did so I could try out different types and find which I like best. (sites I have used are www.cottonbabies.com and www.softclothbunz.com. There are many sites that are good, but since I have actually used these two with no problems I recommend them when asked)



My favorites in order:

-Pockets (I like Bum Genius 3.0 one size the best) I like pockets because the are simple to put on a squirming child even for dad, but they come apart so I feel like the get cleaned better than All in ones.

-Fitted diapers- They go on like disposables. and then you put a cover over it. My favorite fitted is kissaluvs and my favorite covers are Imse Vimse Organic cotton. (they go on real easy and are trimmer than some covers)

- Contours- These are basically prefolds that are cut to fit and put on easier. My favorites are Imse Vimse.



I prefer aplix type closures over snaps. Snaps wash and wear better but I just prefer using the velcro stuff. I feel like I get a better fit.

Melissa - posted on 12/22/2008

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I get mine off of diaperco.com. She is a lady that lives close to me and has her own business selling them. You can email her and she will answer any questions you might have. I use the Bumgenius One Size diapers. They are a pocket diaper which means you can insert the liner and more if needed. They have snaps to change the size so they fit for 8lbs all the way to 40 lbs. They are worth the money because you don't have to keep buying more as your baby grows. I have a ten month old son and they hold VERY well.

Erin - posted on 12/22/2008

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Im a month new to cloth diapers. So what I did was buy one of each type of diaper I liked. This way I could test them out and see what ones Iiked best. I have two favs for 2 different reasons.
I love Jamtots Berry Plush. They are SUPER at keeping the pee in, they wash up great and they are so soft inside and out. I also like a variety of other AIO easy for others to change.
the home made diapers are hit or miss. Some are super cute, but not so leak proof. I checked around for a variety pack and also read lots of reviews. Hope it helps! Oh and get the sprayer, its a must have!

Vilate - posted on 12/22/2008

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Patty,
You are right about so much info out there. I will try to be simple but helpful.

What is the difference between:
pre-fold- a pre fold it a piece of flannel that has been pre-folded and sewn with a bulk in the middle. You have to do some folding and tucking when you use a pre-fold. You also have to use some type of closure be it a snappie, pins, or a cover. People like the pre-fold for the price. A pre-fold can be a little bulky though it doesn't bother most.

fitted- a fitted is a diaper that has been cut and sewn into a diaper shape. There is no folding involved and they usually have elastic to fit better. They usually close using a snap or velcro. They need some sort of cover too.

all-in-ones (AIO's)- these are like the fitteds except there is a layer of PUL (poly urethane laminate) that is water proof. This makes it so this diaper doesn't need a cover. Some people love these, because there is less to deal with. On the other hand they aren't breathable and if your baby gets rashes this can make them worse or cause them.

Pockets- these you didn't list, but I like them. Pockets are like the AIO's except all the layers aren't sewn into the diaper. You have to stuff the pocket with an insert for absorbency. I like these for drying purposes with the insert separate they dry faster. These may or may not require a cover depending on if they have a PUL layer or not. They usually do have a PUL layer and so don't meed a cover.

Which is easier: this is just a personal preference.
pins- I hate pins, I was always sticking myself and worried about sticking the baby, but they do let you customize the fit of the diaper. And they are a cheap alternative! You will only have to use these on the pre-folds and some fitteds.

Snaps- I personally use snaps. I bought a snap press with resin snaps. I put lots of snaps on my diapers, so I have quite a bit of different fits in one diaper. My diapers fit from 2 months to potty training.

velcro- when you use velcro on diapers you don't want it to be velcro you want it to be aplix. The aplix holds up better, and you want to make sure that it has a washing flap. so that you you can attach the aplix to something while washing or you end up with a bunch of diapers all stuck together and your aplix won't hold up as well for as long. I personally don't like this, I found it to difficult to work with, and the kids can take off the diapers easier as they get older.

There is also a snappie you can go here to see these
http://www.snappibaby.com/products/snapp...
I haven't ever used these, but some people love them. You use these with a pre-fold or a fitted that doesn't have snaps or aplix.

Liners or covers:
Liners- there are some diapers that use liners that are flushable, but I personally think that if you are using diapers you are doing it for one of two reasons,
a-you want to save money ( and purchasing liners isn't doing that)
b-you want to be environmentally friendly ( I don't think that flushable diaper liners is the best way to do that, wouldn't reusable ones make more sense?)
So I think if you want a liner it should be cloth.
Liners have a few purposes. In some diapers they are just a liner that makes diaper clean up easier. For others they are used for absorbency purposes. You can also use them when you have a rash you are dealing with and don't want to get the cream on the diaper. (creams usually aren't good for diapers) If your diaper isn't absorbing enough and you have leaks you may want to add a liner or two to help absorb more.

covers- I have lots to say about covers, but I will be simple.
there are 3 different covers I know of.
1-plastic pants. These are cheap, but they aren't breathable, and my kids always had issues with the elastic on their legs.
2-PUL covers. These can come with snaps or aplix. and that is just a personal pref. These are the most common cover out there. but they again aren't breathable.
3-wool covers. These I love. Wool is breathable and soft and warm in the winter and cool in the summer. There are- covers that snap or aplix. There are- soakers that are like bloomers that pull on. There are- longies that are like pants. Then you can have fun and make shorites or like capris, and if you are having a little girl you can have a little skirtie that you put over either a soaker or a longie. For woolies you only have to wash them about once a month, or if there is poo on them, and you have to lanolize them. This isn't a hard or long process and if you are interested I can help you with that.

I think I already clarified how you can tell which kind of diapers need covers.

On the homemade thing. I personally think that if I am going to spend my money I should be helping out some other mom that could use the money to be alt to stay at home with her kids (which is where I think she should be). Plus I am a WAHM :)

You can check out etsy. It is like ebay only for homemade items. My shop is
http://www.vilatesniftynook.etsy.com
If you go to the sold section you can see my diapers and more woolies.

So, now that I have answered your questions here is my advice.

For a newborn (and a beginning diaperer)I think the best diapers are prefolds. I used the ones that are the picture for this site. I cut them so they were contoured and then used covers for them with a fleece liner. I also have a friend that makes amazing fitteds out of flannel and prefolds. I could hook you up with her. Then as your baby gets bigger about 4 months you can start to try out different diapers. You can get a hold of me, my friend and I are trying to start a diapering business together where we will have beginning packages that will get you started. Maybe we could make up a package of some different types so you could try them out. Or you can go to like diaperswapper.com and buy used ones and try out different ones until you find what works for you.

i would also suggest getting a sprayer. You'll love it and it will make diapering so much less yucky! Here is a link to one
http://www.tinybirdsorganics.com/mini-sh...

There is a lot more info, but I don't want to overwhelm you. So, let me know if I can help you at all. And any other questions ask away.

Starla - posted on 12/22/2008

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HI, I like Fuzzy Bunz. They are a pocket diaper, Which means you put a liner inside a pocket in the diaper. There are many kinds of diapers as you have found out.If you look on line at some of the diapers most will tell you the differences. Also try kiss a loves.

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