$150,000 household income doesnt make you rich ?

Charlie - posted on 05/13/2011 ( 201 moms have responded )

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No family that earns $150,000 a year can afford a Ferrari…but that’s rich enough regardless, says Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan.



Not ‘rolling in it’ rich, but rich enough. The terms are important.



The Treasurer has been blasted for the cut-off in his middle class welfare tweaking, which now stands at $150k but there’s an argument on both sides here.



Some say the ‘rich or not’ question is clearly a diversion and we should really be focusing on whether or not those earning $150,000 combined need ‘hand-outs’.



On the other side, the goal posts have changed over the past few decades. It’s expensive to live.



In any case, the Opposition says the new class war has already been set in motion.



The Herald Sun writes:



Mr Swan, who has been accused of triggering a new class war with his decision to freeze the indexing of family payments to 40,000 families, said: “I don’t think a couple on $150,000 a year is rich, I don’t think that at all.



“Families come in different shapes and sizes and with different incomes. There are plenty of families on incomes of $60,000 or $70,000 a year.”



But given the median Australian household income is about $67,000 (that’s all households, not just families) you can see there are plenty below the $150,000 cut-off that need extra help. The Prime Minister says the money should go to those who need it most and those on $150,000 are not quite on the level.



Opposition leader Tony Abbott says the Government is punishing ‘aspiration and hard work’.



Then there’s the case for what $150,000 really means in cities across the country. Clearly, $150,000 with a mortgage, three kids and a car isn’t going to go very far in Sydney (where the Treasurer said he based his figure of $150K on). It’s just not. But that doesn’t change the fact there are still plenty earning less and living in Sydney too.



The Prime Minister dodged the question a little bit and added that those who miss out on some of the welfare still have access to schools and hospitals which the Government is also funding to the tune of billions of dollars. Not to mention child care and paid parental leave.



So, what do you think? Are families on $150,000 household incomes collateral damage in the fight to help the most needy, or should we start seriously looking at redefining what ‘wealthy’ really is?



What is wealthy?



Do those who earn over 150k have a right to claim extra help or are they living beyond their means ?



http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2011/05...

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[deleted account]

I think what seems to be happening is that some people are mistaken about what welfare payments are. Welfare is what you get from the government when you're really struggling and can't keep up with the basics.

I've heard arguments like, "I've worked hard, I deserve it!" Wrong. Welfare is NOT a reward!

Another argument is "I want the incentive to keep workintg harder!" Wrong. Welfare is NOT an incentive payment.

Or, "I have a huge mortgage to pay!" Your problem, mate - you CHOSE to take out a big martgage.

And so on.

Which leads back to the question of whether $150,000 is enough to live on. Gotta say, I'd love to have that sort of struggle! If you can't manage on that, you need financial counselling. Or to move to a cheaper suburb. Or to take your kids out of private schools. or to buy a cheaper car. Some people don't have those choices! What really gets my goat is the implication that those on lower incomes don't work hard!

The Opposition would have us believe that the economy is in dire straights. If that is the case, why waste money on people who don't need it?

Stifler's - posted on 05/15/2011

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Hard to answer. I live in the outback, most people here make around that much and trust me, there aren't many old cars around here. If you can justify a brand new car (I'm talking updating your vehicle to the year every 3 years) and are paying off a house, inviting people around for Wagyu rib fillets and Lenards kebabs, buying $200 worth of alcohol a week, spending $1000 on your kid for Christmas, going away on holidays/to Rocky to shop, have a pool and a flat screen, ADSL 2 internet... then you don't need Centrelink IMO nor can you whinge about electricity and phone bills.

[deleted account]

I'm sorry but IMO if you can afford to own a home have 2 cars that you own outright then your doing a hell of a lot better then most!

Jenn - posted on 05/20/2011

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That's disgusting Mary, and pretty shitty behaviour towards another human being. I've been a server at several different places over the years, and have had my fair share of tightwads who don't tip - but I wouldn't, nor would anyone I have ever worked with, treat our customers like that. Low and classless.

Bonnie - posted on 05/16/2011

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I think $150,000 a year is not rich, but definitely well off and likely wouldn't have to worry about bills being behind and would defintely be able to take at least one family trip a year.

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MeMe---(Past And Present) - posted on 07/09/2012

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Just a correction to Isobel, on page 1. In regards to the CCTB. Yes, you CAN elect to NOT get the CCTB. You HAVE to apply for it. I did NOT apply for it for the first 1.5 years when my daughter was born. Why? Because I wanted back-pay!



So, just because you file your income tax, does not automatically enroll you into getting the CCTB. You do have to ask for it, by applying for it. However, only once (per child), do you have to do this.



http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/rc66/R...



Yes, I know this thread is old but I saw something that needed re-clarification. ;)



ETA:

Oh and $150 000 annual (combined or not) should NOT be getting any government assistance, unless they have a disabled child in their home. You do NOT receive any CCTB here (in Canada) with that figure. We make $100 000/year BUT we also lose $40 000 in taxes and other mandatory payouts. So, we do receive, very little, CCTB (like $35/kid). Therefore, we would not if we made another $50 000/year.



Also, in this end of Canada, it is very expensive. We pay 15% HST on everything. Our food costs are ridiculous. Sure, we can find a decent priced home but NOT directly in the city. If you want to live downtown, you are talking $500 000 and up. There is a house selling right now, downtown for $2.2 million. A condo, is $300 000+. You have to live in the outskirts or in a shitty neighbourhood. We live on the outskirts. Takes me 45-60mins to get to work, downtown. I still do not think someone earning $150 000/year should be getting government funds, except their back taxes.

Julie - posted on 07/09/2012

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I think they should have the option to try and get extra help if they need it. Depending on the circumstance that got them there.
We live in Northern California where $150,000 a year would be considered MIDDLE CLASS. UPPER MIDDLE Class is over 250,000.00.
RICH is anything over $500,000.00 a year.
WEALTHY people are making anything over a million of dollars a year.
My husband and I were at 210,000 this year, yet we are worried about the future for us and our children. I battled cancer last year (and won) but the medical bills, and loss of my income could have been reason enough to ask for help if we needed.

Jenn - posted on 05/21/2011

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I'll look for the other thread in a minute - but wanted to say that I do agree with the point Mary is making, that when you travel to another country it is a good idea to do some research ahead of time and find out what their customs are or you could find yourself in some hot water (about other issues, not just the tipping thing). And the word tip means "To Insure Promptness" - it is meant as a way to get great service. However, if in Australia they get paid a higher wage and tipping isn't the custom, don't get all upset that they feel the way they do - but Australians - when you are travelling to the US, it would be wise to find out what is customary. OK - off to find the other thread. ;)

Jodi - posted on 05/21/2011

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Sheen, I am finding I have to refresh a couple of times sometimes to find a damn thread, it's stupid.

Jodi - posted on 05/21/2011

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Stupid CoM, now it shows up.....I am starting to hate these glitches.

Mary Renee, I hope you don't mind, but I am copying and pasting your last post over in the other thread.....because I think it IS an interesting topic.

Jodi - posted on 05/21/2011

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I can't find it Erin. I was going to reply to Mary Renee, but I can't find the thread you started...

"If you want good service you have to PAY for it."

Um, no, if you want to be paid, provide good service. Crappy service = no tip :D

Erin - posted on 05/21/2011

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I started a Tipping thread because clearly this discussion is going to continue.

Mary Renee - posted on 05/21/2011

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"I’m not there to sort out employee-employer stuff. I just want good service."

If you want good service you have to PAY for it.

Why is that so difficult to understand? I think this is just a ideological difference between cultures, and the US is more capitalistic (something that I will agree probably causes a lot more harm that good). But you're right, I really should have started another thread about this. I just don't care THAT much about. I just meant to throw the last part in there to spread the word to help my fellow servers that are still serving here in Hawaii.

If all you want to pay for is FOOD then go to a grocery store and buy some food and make it yourself. If you want to go out to eat then you're paying for the ambiance of the restaurant setting, and you want the server to ask you what you would like, bring your food out to you, open your wine and refill your drinks.

Otherwise you would need to go the restaurant kitchen and get your own food, or go take your drink to the soda gun and refill your own drink, or bring a bottle opener, go to the wine cellar, and open your own wine.

A "Tip" is how you pay the person for doing those things for you so that you have a more enjoyable experience. They are not getting paid by the restaurant to do those things for you, the "boss" isn't really a "boss" they are just giving the server the opportunity to make money. That's why I received below minimum wage from my employer, but walked away with good money in tips. The reasons restaurants in the US are able to keep their prices lower than other places is because they don't pay their servers the way the servers are paid in Australia or Europe or places that don't tip. The service is not included in the price of the meal. Got it?

[deleted account]

Me”
"I only tip for EXTRA good service. I expect good service anyway, that's their job. If I get bad service, I complain to the manager."

Mary Renee:
“Good service is their job but YOU are the one that are recieving that service so YOU are the one that is supposed to pay for it! We aren't getting paid from the boss.”
I really wasn’t going to go any further on this hi-jacked thread, but I have to say, Mary Renee, that I don’t feel obliged to prop up your industrial relations system. In the hospitality industry, service is paramount. I’m not there to sort out employee-employer stuff. I just want good service.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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I agree Jenn, I would never do that. And I would warn people about someone being a shitty tipper if I thought THEY might do it either.

[deleted account]

I suppose it's possible. My MIL and FIL live in El Cajon, CA (basically San Diego) and they pay $600/month in rent. But they live in a travel trailer (that they own) and pay for the spot in the trailer park. People live in travel trailers with their children. If they were living on 1500/month, that would leave $900 for food and other necessities. It would be VERY tight. (By the way, it's not a permanent situation for them. FIL works there but they own a home here in Louisiana.)

Johnny - posted on 05/20/2011

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I have a very very hard time believing that anyone is living on $18k a year without some sort of assistance. Either government or charitable. I simply don't believe it would be possible at all in an urban area. Perhaps maybe in a rural setting wher you can grow your own food, power sources, hunt, sew, make all your own household cleaners... basically you could do it if you're Amish.

Mary Renee - posted on 05/20/2011

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I can't imagine living off of 18k in San Diego either, particularly not with 6+ kids. If you break that down it's $1500 a month. A one bedroom apartment in San Diego is going to be at least $1000/month rent, and then at least $200/month for utilities and that leaves you $300 a month for groceries, travel, gas, bus fare. the occasional new light bulb, etc for EIGHT people? Not to mention the cost of health insurance for a family of 8?



I don't think it's possible to live in San Diego for a family with 6+ kids on 18k a year unless you are living WITH your parents/grandparents rent-free and receiving some kind of government assistance, at the very least health care or food stamps or something. There's just no way.

Tanya - posted on 05/20/2011

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I think that there should be no problem living off 150k a year, if you don't have 6+ kids. It's called living frugal! We currently live off 18k a year, and our cost of living is covered! We can't go out and do stuff often, but is that really necessary? What does it take to make you happy? I think that's the question worth answering when it comes to how much money one spends. Btw, we live off 18k in San Diego CA... Not the cheapest place to live for damn sure!

Mary Renee - posted on 05/20/2011

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Haha, that's ok, Shannen, I'll just spread the word to all the other servers that they should go ahead and spit in your food... haha, you really don't want to mess with the people handling your food.

But that's ok because if "what YOU earn sucks arse" then you probably don't make enough money to go out to eat or to go on a vacation across the Pacific Ocean. You should stay home, eat in, and save your money if you really can't afford to tip while visiting the United States.

I think it's rather rude for tourists to be that ignorant and stubborn when they're visiting another culture.

But yeah, I should start another thread instead of talking about tipping on this thread, I promise, no more posts - just spreading the good word! I wouldn't want nice people enjoying a nice night out to be accused of being cheap bastards just because they didn't know better. Because, well, then their waiter will go ahead and tell the rest of the wait staff to put you at the bottom of the priority list if you come back - fairly likely in a hotel restaurant - since you don't tip anyway - or worse, they will spit on your food, drop your food on the ground and put it back on your plate, or give you the cheap wine and charge you for the expensive crap you ordered. I never did those things when I was a waitress, but I did let other servers know who the crappy tippers were in case they came back.

Jenn - posted on 05/20/2011

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I used to bartend in FL and people would comment about how Canadians were known to be cheap that way. I personally always tip 15 - 20% and everyone I know does as well, so I'm not sure why they think that. Although I did find at that job that most people there would tip way more than that and on a Friday night I'd usually go home with $200-$300. Man I miss that money. :/

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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One of the reasons we don't do pizza by delivery any more - the kids were chewing their arms off by the time we ate.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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Ah, our pizza delivery comes by car :P And yeah, I guess if the change isn't much, I just tell them to keep it. But if I had someone that rude, no way!!

One night I refused to pay and sent the pizzas back. We had waited an hour and a half, and they arrived COLD. When I spoke to the pizza place, that delivery driver had been gone an hour.....God knows what the fuck he was doing, but they immediately made us new ones and sent them directly to us FOC.

Charlie - posted on 05/20/2011

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I would usually let them keep the change especially if they are riding those bikes in the rain but this guy was SO rude .

Charlie - posted on 05/20/2011

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I Always tip for great service and friendly staff but I once had a guy demand a tip while I had my newborn baby in my arms crying not only did he demand a tip he had not even given us our change yet and was holding it ransom ( he was delivering pizza and earning a wage in Australia ) I told him he better get going before I called his boss and told him how fucking rude his delivery man was .

Erin - posted on 05/20/2011

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Maybe we should start a separate thread about tipping. I love those :-p

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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Mary Renee, I think you will find that an Aussie will tip if they get GOOD service. I've always tipped in countries where it is customary, but if I receive crap service, they receive nothing.



Anyway, don't many restaurants there add the tip to the bill?

[deleted account]

Mary renee Reuter, I am living on less then 20,000 per year. I am raising 3 children. So i'm supporting myself and 3 children on less then what you are whinging about.
I think it's rather rude of you to tell tourists that they have to tip. Yes what you earn sucks arse but if your not happy then get out and find another better paying job.

Isobel - posted on 05/20/2011

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you are a waitress that doesn't tip for average/good service??? That's the craziest thing I've ever heard...I hope you don't go back to the same place too often ;)

Mary Renee - posted on 05/20/2011

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As a waitress in Hawaii I usually did not get a paycheck. You don't have to pay minimum wage to a work that is assumed to get tips, and the computer "automatically" taxed me as if I had gotten a 15% tip. Therefore, yes, I was paying taxes on my tip... even if I got an Australian table that didn't tip me. I also still had to tip out the bus boy. Therefore, if someone tipped me less than 15% I actually had PAY to serve someone. It is so incrediably frustrating to have to pay money to serve a table.

It's a when in Rome deal. I don't care if you don't tip your waitor in Australia - they get paid a living wage. But if you don't tip your waitor in America because you don't do it in your home country, then that's just cheap. You should respect the country you're visiting.

"I only tip for EXTRA good service. I expect good service anyway, that's their job. If I get bad service, I complain to the manager."

Good service is their job but YOU are the one that are recieving that service so YOU are the one that is supposed to pay for it! We aren't getting paid from the boss! If we are it's like $2.40/hour. Many times I got paychecks for $0 because they taxed my credit card tips and it amounted to nothing.

I know that's not what this thread is about - but I'm just spreading the word so people can stop pretending they don't know how it works so they can be cheap and not tip! Just look at your server and know she's trying to support herself and her daughter for less than $30,000/year. And then decide if you're so proud not to tip.

Again, just to clarify - I'm speaking as a waitress in Hawaii. I don't expect people to tip in countries where tipping isn't the norm or the culture. I'm talking about when you're in a place where you are expected to tip.

Isobel - posted on 05/20/2011

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OK...I just checked with my friend the bartender/waitress...she said here servers get $8.90...our minimum wage for servers is different from our general minimum wage.

Jenni - posted on 05/20/2011

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I drove a beater. Work was a 15 min drive from my town so I needed a car. At the time minimum wage was $7.00/hr. I loved that job though! Worked at a greenhouse/craft/restaurant/zoo/arcade/golf course/kiddie rides- tourist attraction. Loved it! Didn't want to quit but I had to move to the city when I started uni.

Stifler's - posted on 05/20/2011

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I had to have a car because I lived out of town but it was my parents car and insured/rego under their name and I just paid them extra board to get the rego and stuff and for fuel.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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I remember when I was 19, I actually took up a supervisor role, and under the law, I was no longer on junior wages. I was SO stoked. I could finally afford to save for a car (I didn't live at home, it was a 2 hour drive away, so to be able to afford to run a car meant SOOOO much to me!!).

Jenni - posted on 05/20/2011

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Same here. I recall when I turned 18 my wage went up to min wage. But it was only about .50/hr more.

Stifler's - posted on 05/20/2011

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Yeah I was about 17 I think (the end of high school). I started working at the home on my 18th birthday and the pay went up every year until I was 20 it was about $18.84 or something then I quit to have Logan.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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Was that when you were a junior Emma?

For the record of others, we DO have junior wages here, so under 20s get paid less.

Stifler's - posted on 05/20/2011

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I made $8 an hour as a waitress at Eastern Pearl (in Australia). We didn't even make enough a year to get taxed lol. People used to tip us for putting up with our boss. I hated that job, I thought I was rich when I got a job in aged care at 14.49 an hour. But sadly, I could never had afforded to live like NOT under my parents roof paying $50 a week board.

[deleted account]

I only tip for EXTRA good service. I expect good service anyway, that's their job. If I get bad service, I complain to the manager.

Jenni - posted on 05/20/2011

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Here it is the range is $5.15-$8.60 depending on the state. The average appears to be $7.00/hr. I thought $8 was a bit high. There's only a few states that pay $8/hr.



We *expect* tips here as well.. but our waitstaff still makes around $10/hr (or close to min wage). It's actually a pretty well paying job, depending on where you work.



Edit to add: Being from a border city I can vouche and say Americans tip way higher than we do here. We'd always get super excited when we had a table of Americans. ;)

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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Ah... I am pretty sure I heard their minimum wage was about $8 or something in another thread a while ago. But waiting staff only receive some ridiculous amount like $2.50 an hour, which is why they expect tips.

Jenni - posted on 05/20/2011

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Sorry, let me clarify... I mean in the US. I think Austraila's cost of living definitely has to be higher than Canada's. Especially considering you're in the middle of the ocean. ;) Has to cost a lot to bring in mainland products.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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For a permanent worker it is $15 an hour (before tax). A casual worker is 25% on top of that. Plus 9% is put into superannuation (retirement). Plus you have to pay Workers Compensation insurance (which varies depending on the industry). Plus penalty rates on weekends and public holidays.



Just as an example, our minimum wage casual workers, we have to pay them $18.75 an hour (before tax) or Saturday, PLUS $1.69 an hour into their superannuation, PLUS $1.50 an hour to our insurance company.



On a Public Holiday (do you really want to know), a minimum wage casual worker in our industry receives $46.88 per hour....plus all the lovely extras.

Jenni - posted on 05/20/2011

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Yeah, our minimum wage is $10/hr here... what is it there?

But our cost of living is insanely higher.



My family's income growing up was around $150 000 and I wouldn't consider us rich, at all. We were comfomfortable. Maybe border middle middle class-upper middle class but certainly not rich.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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Jennifer, that is why all the US members are freaking out at the $150K.

Jenni - posted on 05/20/2011

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Our waitstaff make $8.50-$10.00/hr and still make tips.

Are they really manditory in the US? They aren't here either. I wouldn't *think* they'd be manditory in the US. I've been there plenty of times (live right across the river) and I've never heard anything about it being manditory to tip.



Cost of living in the US is lower than it is in Canada, however.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2011

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We don't need to tip, our waiters aren't paid the pathetic $2.50 an hour they do in the US. They get a fairly respectable $15+ an hour. So of course, that means *gasp* our cost of living is higher than it might be in Hawaii!!!

Emma, it's not illegal to tip, but you can't be forced to. Also, tips are SUPPOSED to be declared for tax purposes. But the custom here is to tip for good service. If you provide crap service, I'm not tipping. I don't care WHAT country you are in. If you provide me with shit service in Hawaii, don't expect me to tip you for the privilege.

Stifler's - posted on 05/20/2011

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We don't tip in Australia usually... that's why we know nothing about tips. It's actually not legal here I don't think.

Erin - posted on 05/20/2011

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Are tips even declared? Or is that just cash in hand that the Tax Man knows nothing about?

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