Abortion

[deleted account] ( 115 moms have responded )

So this morning I followed a thread to another thread to another thread about abortion. This is something I've actually been thinking about all weekend because my miscarriage is officially termed "spontaneous abortion". Personally I don't like the word being used in reference to a miscarriage but that's a whole other issue for me. Abortion is a topic that hasn't come up so far in Debating Mums, and I was wondering what your views are on it. In a nutshell, here's what I believe. I believe that life begins at conception. I believe that a baby is a baby long before it is medically termed a fetus. I have a faith in a higher power, call it God, Allah, the name is unimportant to me, but my faith would prevent me from ever voluntarily terminating a pregnancy for myself. I think even if I were raped, I would have the baby and more than likely, I would keep it, love it and raise it as I would my son, who was concieved in love. If it were a matter of my life or the baby's, part of me is torn on that one, mostly because I already have a son. Part of me thinks I would sacrifice my life for the baby's. But the other part of me knows that my son would need me still and it would be unfair to him to knowingly take myself out of his life permanently. Now, all that being said, although I consider myself personally to be "pro life", I am also a firm believer in "pro choice". Not every woman shares my beliefs and I don't have the right to make that decision for anyone else. I can't tell the athiest not to have an abortion based on my faith. It just isn't my place. In my head, I can think to myself "Well, she'll deal with the consequences when she meets her maker." But a woman still has the right to make that choice. It is not my burden to bear. So I think abortion should continue to remain legal. What I have a problem with is the 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions. I think those should be illegal unless the mother's life is at risk. I think that if abortion was made illegal again, many women would die, like they did in the days before Rowe v Wade. My mom's cousin died because abortion was illegal. She made the personal decision to terminate her pregnancy, but obviously couldn't have one legally back in the 50's so she did what many women did back then. A "doctor" (not sure if he was really a doctor) was snuck into her house late at night and performed her abortion on her kitchen table. She died a few days later of blood loss. She couldn't go to the hospital for fear of being arrested for what she had done. This is the same kind of thing that would start happening again, in large numbers, were abortion made illegal again. And some stories were even worse than that...women using coat hangers and doing it themselves, etc. At least now, it's a sterile thing, with about as much risk as having a D&C, which that's basically all it is anyways. So, what do you ladies think about it? Just curious to see where we all stand...and we've talked about just about everything else.....so here goes.....

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[deleted account]

I have no idea when 'life' begins, but that's not really the issue for me when it comes to abortion. The issue is whether an embryo or fetus has the same rights as a pregnant woman or full-term baby. I think there are cases where the rights of the mother trump the rights of a fetus. To me, abortion is a medical decision, and I hate to see the politicians deciding what is best for us medically. Abortion should be a private matter between a woman and her doctor, though I do agree with the notion that is should be 'safe, legal, and rare'. Providing birth control, prenatal check-ups, and post-partum support, access to adoption, etc are better ways to prevent abortions than making them illegal.

It is easy for a person to say they'd never have an abortion, but I don't think we can know for sure what we'd do in a given situation. What about a terminal pre-natal diagnosis, where a high degree of suffering is a given, if the fetus even makes it to delivery? Or serious medical conditions for the mother early in pregnancy? I find it is difficult to judge a person if you haven't gone though something like that. And I also don't like the idea of restrictions on abortion, even late term abortions (which are incredibly rare). How close to death do you need to be before it is okay for the doctor to perform an abortion? I don't want doctors to be worrying about the legal details when a mother's life is in the balance.

Sarah - posted on 07/16/2009

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Quoting Jo Lee:

And this is what happens when people don't talk to their children about sex period...

Not the Daddy: Reports in February said 13-year-old Alfie Patten, fathered his 15-year-old girlfriend's child. In March, DNA tests proved Alfie wasn't the dad. Tyler Barker told the May 20 edition of the Daily Mail that he is the father. The 15-year-old called having sex with the girl "the worst mistake I've ever made in my life."


That was SUCH big news here! Disgusting! 

Erin - posted on 07/13/2009

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I haven't read any other posts but I'll give my opinion first :)

I'm very much pro-choice, and in no way do I see it appropriate for any government to make abortion illegal. In saying that, Australian laws only allow for termination beyond 12 weeks if it's medically-indicated. I DO have a problem with late-term abortion without a serious medical reason. And I DO have a problem with women using abortion as a form of contraception.

On a personal level, despite being pro-choice, abortion is not something I would consider at this point in my life. The reason I am a single mother is because I refused to follow my ex's request to terminate. Our circumstances were complicated though, so I would certainly understand another woman, if in the same situation, choosing to have the abortion. It wasn't right for me, but I would hate to not have had that option.

Mary - posted on 07/13/2009

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Hmmm...thought about letting this one ride, as I don't have enough time in the day to type out all my thoughts on this, which are conflicting at best. Summed up, I personally would never chose to abort...I had no prenatal testing other than the 20 week anatomy scan for that reason...and I purposely chose to work in a Catholic institution to avoid having to deal with abortion on a professional level...didn't want to be a part of it as a nurse. However, I vehemently support a women's right to chose. I am anti-abortion, but remain pro-CHOICE. Perhaps a tad hypocritcal, but it is where I stand.



The one thing I want to address is the "mother's health in jeopardy" issue that has popped up. What everyone needs to remember is this...sick momma, sick baby; dead momma, dead baby. This may sound harsh, but when you are pregnant, YOU are your baby's life support system...a fetus is essentially a parasite living off of you, and if you get sick, your body's defense mechanisms kick in, and will gradually stop supporting that baby in an effort to protect itself. As the mother's health declines, so does that of her unborn child. Last week I took care of a patient who became severely preeclamptic at 22 weeks. While uncommon, it can happen. Viability does not begin until 24 weeks, and despite our best efforts, there was no way we were going to get 2 more weeks out of that pregnancy without killing the mother...in which case that baby would never survive either. This was a much desired pregnancy, and the family was VERY Catholic and pro-life. However, the mother was extremely sick, and continuing the pregnancy was only going to make her worse, and jeopardize her chances at survival. After 24 hours, the decision was made to induce labor, and she delivered her little girl, whome she named Hope, within 10 hours. Hope lived for about an hour, and was held in the arms of her loving family well past the moment she took her last breath. Within a day, the mother's health was drastically improved, and she is back to her pre-pregnant state of health today.



Technically, this was an "abortion" in the medical sense...but in my heart, I know that it was the only responsible option, and I have no misgivings about having been a part of her induction or delivery. Remember, I work in a Catholic hospital, and despite the CHurch's stance on the sanctitiy of life, there was no debate by the ethics committee about how to proceed; there was no question about what the appropriate plan of care was, or whose life was a priority....allowing that pregnancy to continue would have only ensured that the mother got sicker, and possibly died...the baby was never going to survive, even if we had kept her pregnant longer...her body would have either done it's best to expel it, or ceased all circulation to the placenta. I reiterate that I believe that this was the absolute right thing to do, but I also acknowledge that at it's very basest level, this WAS an abortion, and a decision was knowingly made to terminate that baby's life prematurely.



Wandering a bit here I know...again, little sleep deprived. I think the point I'm trying to make is really to the pro-life faction that finds the above situation an "acceptable" exception. I just want you to realize that this is still ending a life, and is really a form of euthanasia. Don't be fooled or comforted by the argument that it was necessary to save the mother's life. Letting God decide would have been allowing the pregnancy to continue, and letting that child live out it's "natural" timespan inside, until the mother's body either aborted it, or ceased to live.

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[deleted account]

Okay, I know this is an old topic, but I saw this in the news today, and wanted to post it. We had been talking about the need for finding common ground on the left and right in the US on abortion. Looks like our Congress is finally making some progress:



http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/...

The bill is called the "Preventing Unintended Pregnancies, Reducing the Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act" and is supported by both pro-life and pro-choice groups. Of course, I've heard almost nothing about this in the national media - I guess compromise doesn't sell as well as conflict. But perhaps here's hope for our politicians yet....

Clare - posted on 07/17/2009

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Quoting Allison:

This is a touchy subject, so I will tread lightly. If I were raped I do not feel that the governmnet should have the right to force me to carry the child. I don't think the government has the right to force me to carry a child if it puts my life at rist or if there is no chance the child will survive. Should a gov't agency review my medical file and be the one to determine the fate of myself, or my child. Is everyone so willing to give up their rights to their own bodies? These should be my decisions to make. Now, it's hard to say what decision I would make in such an extreme situation. But at least I would have the freedom to make a decison. Can you imagine what you and your husband would go through having to watch your belly grow after you were raped. What a horrible reminder. What a horrible thing to go through because the government said you didn't have the constitutional right to do anything about it. I think my heart would break everyday.
Now, having said that, it disgusts me that some individuals use abortion as a way of 'birth control', with complete lack or regard for human life. Free clinics doing abortions for the 3rd and 4th time on the same woman. That is appalling. .. And yes, 2nd and 3rd aboritions are a crime against humanity, nature and/or God. Whatever you prefer to say. And I do believe there needs to be some strict laws around terminating at that stage of pregnancy. And anyone considering abortion, should be mandated to take eductional class/seminar on the adoption process as a possible alternative.


hiya just wanted to say your little is so pretty, sorry for cahgning the subject i jusst wanted u 2 no

Jaime - posted on 07/16/2009

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Quoting Erin:



Quoting Cathy:




Quoting Erin:

On a personal level, despite being pro-choice, abortion is not something I would consider at this point in my life. The reason I am a single mother is because I refused to follow my ex's request to terminate. Our circumstances were complicated though, so I would certainly understand another woman, if in the same situation, choosing to have the abortion. It wasn't right for me, but I would hate to not have had that option.







I was in the same position with my first pregnancy. The descision is never so easy when contraception has failed to do its job, you're being told to abort and  feel completely alone. I consider myself to be a strong person and continued with the pregnancy because I felt I could do it. I would not want 1st term abortion made illegal because I know that not every woman capable of coping in that situation.









Exactly... A different woman if faced with the same situation may well have felt abortion was their best (or only) option. I'm a strong, capable woman with an education to fall back on and a lot of family support. Not everyone is so lucky.





I too am a single Mom and chose to keep my Son instead of abort him.  I went through a lot of emotional chaos at the beginning of my pregnancy however, and I admit that there were times when I felt so strongly that it might be easier to abort the baby, rather than deal with the depression and the worry.  I had some complications in the beginning and long story short, didn't realize I was even pregnant until I was 7 weeks (I was taking birth control pills)...and to add more chaos to the situation, I had a blood pocket growing under the placenta...this blood pocket was causing severe cramping, and heavy bleeding which made me think 'miscarriage' right away.  I went to the hospital and was actually told by the emerg doc that I had a miscarriage.  I was scheduled to come back to emerg to get a formal ultrasound two days later that would be done to rule out ectopic pregnancy and to be sure that the miscarriage would run its course (so to speak).  While in the ultrasound room, staring up at the ceiling and trying to process the short amount of time I had to get used to the idea of being pregnant and then not being pregnant, I suddenly heard a heart beat.  I immediately asked the technician what the sound was because it startled me...he said "it's the heart beat"...to which I replied "my heartbeat?"...to which he replied "no, the baby's"...to which I replied "what???"....lol...it's not really a funny story, but you can imagine my shock in thinking that I was going in for a routine procedure and finding out that I was pregnant, then I wasn't, then I was again.  My Son is now five months old and I am so thankful for him every single day.  I can't imagine my life without him.



With that being said, I am and always will be pro-choice.  I could not have an abortion, but I am still glad that if I had decided it was the best option for me, then it would have been safe and available to me.

ME - posted on 07/16/2009

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I knew a 15 month old who ran full speed into a brick wall trying to induce a miscarraige..I am not surprised at all...just saddened!

?? - posted on 07/16/2009

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And this is what happens when people don't talk to their children about sex period...



Not the Daddy: Reports in February said 13-year-old Alfie Patten, fathered his 15-year-old girlfriend's child. In March, DNA tests proved Alfie wasn't the dad. Tyler Barker told the May 20 edition of the Daily Mail that he is the father. The 15-year-old called having sex with the girl "the worst mistake I've ever made in my life."

?? - posted on 07/16/2009

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This is what happens when teenagers don't go to Planned Parenthood...



Pregnant Teen Beaten: Police in Naples, Utah, charged 21-year-old Arron Harrison with attempted homicide May 22 for allegedly hitting a pregnant teenager in the stomach. Authorities said the 17-year-old girl asked for the beating in an effort to induce a miscarriage.

Charlie - posted on 07/16/2009

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Quoting Mary:

I'll restate that I am politically pro-choice, and personally anti-abortion. For me, Molly's life began with heartburn, 2 days before I had missed my period...she had lived in my heart for years, but became a physical reality the second I sensed her presence. BUT...those are my PERSONAL beliefs and emotions, and I'm not sure it's right or fair to expect everyone to agree, or believe what I do. I may not agree with another's choice to terminate, but I don't believe it's my place to impose MY morals on them, or force them to live with the end results of MY belief system; their choice to terminate does not impact me, my family, or society as a whole. They will have to live with that choice, and face whatever consequences may or may not be imposed by a higher power.

As an L&D nurse, I do think that 24 weeks is too late...viability is now possible somewhere between 23 & 24 weeks (although I believe we sometimes venture too far in that arena). I would be in favor of a 20 week cutoff. I have delivered quite a few babies at 21-22 weeks, that, while not sustainable, were born alive, and did live for an hour or more. They are not fully developed, and their eyes are still fused shut, but they ARE babies, who I believe are capable of feeling pain, sensing love, and comfort. More than once in my career I have cuddled one of these infants until they gasped their last breath, when the parents were unable to bear doing so...although heartbreaking, it is one of the blessings that my job bestows on me. At that age, they may not be viable, but they ARE, without question, a human being in their own right, deserving of love, comfort and support for their all too brief life.


i could not have said it better !



i had a misscariage at 15 weeks , i was given the opportunity to hold my baby and say my goodbyes heartbreaking , but i am so glad i did , i got to see and hold my child , although i am pro choice , personally i couldnt have an abortion , after seeing my son at 15 weeks  .



he was a baby , with all the features of a person no bigger than my hand .



 

[deleted account]

Another false pretense out there is the claim thay all pregnant women are maternal and have that drive to be a mother. For some, it's the farthest from the truth. One of my college roommates always knew she had zero desire to ever become a mother, let alone go through an unwanted pregnancy. She had a pregnancy scare while using birth control. Abortion was brought up as an option if she was pregnant. I'm glad we live in a society that allows women an option if that's the case. Another friend of mine had such screwy cycles, that she didn't even know she was pregnant until 14-15 weeks. She even had hand reconstruction surgery when she was probably very newly pregnant. By the time she found out, and the shock settled she also considered an abortion. She was single, not with the father, and in the military. Because she was further along, she decided to continue the pregnancy. She felt that if she was less than 12 weeks, she may have terminated. But again, she had that option.

Mary - posted on 07/15/2009

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Awww, girls, thank you...have to be honest, at the end of the night, I usually feel like I take away so much more than I give...it is an honor to share in another's joy, or sorrow in such an intimate way. My job is often hard, but possibly more interesting and rewarding than many others!

Sara - posted on 07/15/2009

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Quoting Mary:

I'll restate that I am politically pro-choice, and personally anti-abortion. For me, Molly's life began with heartburn, 2 days before I had missed my period...she had lived in my heart for years, but became a physical reality the second I sensed her presence. BUT...those are my PERSONAL beliefs and emotions, and I'm not sure it's right or fair to expect everyone to agree, or believe what I do. I may not agree with another's choice to terminate, but I don't believe it's my place to impose MY morals on them, or force them to live with the end results of MY belief system; their choice to terminate does not impact me, my family, or society as a whole. They will have to live with that choice, and face whatever consequences may or may not be imposed by a higher power.

As an L&D nurse, I do think that 24 weeks is too late...viability is now possible somewhere between 23 & 24 weeks (although I believe we sometimes venture too far in that arena). I would be in favor of a 20 week cutoff. I have delivered quite a few babies at 21-22 weeks, that, while not sustainable, were born alive, and did live for an hour or more. They are not fully developed, and their eyes are still fused shut, but they ARE babies, who I believe are capable of feeling pain, sensing love, and comfort. More than once in my career I have cuddled one of these infants until they gasped their last breath, when the parents were unable to bear doing so...although heartbreaking, it is one of the blessings that my job bestows on me. At that age, they may not be viable, but they ARE, without question, a human being in their own right, deserving of love, comfort and support for their all too brief life.


Aw Mary, you're making me tear up!



 



I totally agree with you.  As I said before, I dont' think I could have an abortion, especially now that I've carried and given birth to a child.  BUT, I cannot impose my belief system on others and I politically also feel that abortion should remain legal.  I think there should be restrictions after the first trimester as well, 24 weeks does seem too late. 

Esther - posted on 07/15/2009

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Quoting Mary:

[ ] As an L&D nurse, I do think that 24 weeks is too late...viability is now possible somewhere between 23 & 24 weeks (although I believe we sometimes venture too far in that arena). I would be in favor of a 20 week cutoff. I have delivered quite a few babies at 21-22 weeks, that, while not sustainable, were born alive, and did live for an hour or more. They are not fully developed, and their eyes are still fused shut, but they ARE babies, who I believe are capable of feeling pain, sensing love, and comfort. More than once in my career I have cuddled one of these infants until they gasped their last breath, when the parents were unable to bear doing so...although heartbreaking, it is one of the blessings that my job bestows on me. At that age, they may not be viable, but they ARE, without question, a human being in their own right, deserving of love, comfort and support for their all too brief life.



Mary - I agree. I vividly remember my 20 week ultrasound and the sense of wonder I felt at seeing my son as a little human being for the first time. Everything was there. The spine, the eyes, the kidneys, the blatter, the arms, legs etc. and I would not dream of having an abortion myself. I would personally be more comfortable with a cut-off around the end of the first trimester, except in serious medical situations.



As for the work you do - I thank you for doing it and I admire you to no end for being able to. I can't imagine how heartbreaking it must be to have a baby take their last breath in your arms. Just reading your post alone has brought tears to my eyes. You're a hero in my book.

[deleted account]

I just wanted to say that I'm glad there are people in the world like you Mary, who do what you do. I would take those situations home with me, carry them with me in my heart and eventually they would eat me from the inside out. (I had to edit this one....the first time it didn't sound right to me)

Mary - posted on 07/15/2009

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I'll restate that I am politically pro-choice, and personally anti-abortion. For me, Molly's life began with heartburn, 2 days before I had missed my period...she had lived in my heart for years, but became a physical reality the second I sensed her presence. BUT...those are my PERSONAL beliefs and emotions, and I'm not sure it's right or fair to expect everyone to agree, or believe what I do. I may not agree with another's choice to terminate, but I don't believe it's my place to impose MY morals on them, or force them to live with the end results of MY belief system; their choice to terminate does not impact me, my family, or society as a whole. They will have to live with that choice, and face whatever consequences may or may not be imposed by a higher power.



As an L&D nurse, I do think that 24 weeks is too late...viability is now possible somewhere between 23 & 24 weeks (although I believe we sometimes venture too far in that arena). I would be in favor of a 20 week cutoff. I have delivered quite a few babies at 21-22 weeks, that, while not sustainable, were born alive, and did live for an hour or more. They are not fully developed, and their eyes are still fused shut, but they ARE babies, who I believe are capable of feeling pain, sensing love, and comfort. More than once in my career I have cuddled one of these infants until they gasped their last breath, when the parents were unable to bear doing so...although heartbreaking, it is one of the blessings that my job bestows on me. At that age, they may not be viable, but they ARE, without question, a human being in their own right, deserving of love, comfort and support for their all too brief life.

Esther - posted on 07/15/2009

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Quoting Erin:



The cut-off point for abortions in Australia is 12 weeks - that may be why I'm so firmly pro-choice. And there is mandatory counselling associated with the procedure. I must admit I think 24 weeks is quite late for an abortion without a sound medical reason.






Erin - as a pro-choice woman myself, I agree that I think 24 weeks is late too. I was actually surprised to find out that it was allowed up until such a late date in The Netherlands as I had never heard of anyone having an abortion that late (of course that may be because the abortion rate there is the lowest - or at least one of the lowest, I haven't been able to find the most recent statistics - in the world and I only know 1 woman personally who has ever had one).



The reasoning behind the 24 week cut-off is that that is the viability age. After 24 weeks, theoretically a baby could survive outside the womb. I know however, that with advanced medical technology the viability date is shifting and as a result there is discussion regarding moving that cut-off date as well.

[deleted account]

I wasn't shocked to read an article stating that most abortions are performed on healthy pregnancies to mothers from middle/upper-middle class backrounds. The whole poverty/health thing is not as much of an issue as pro choice groups would have people believe. Ultimately you either support choice or you don't.



Even though I am personally against abortion, I also think it should be a private matter between a doctor and patient rather than a political issue. I think pro life groups should spend their time helping pregnant women explore other options. I also think that free birth control doesn't work if the UK is anything to go by. We have more education than ever before. I don't think there is a solution, but I think mothers and children should be more highly regarded in society.

[deleted account]

I suppose that while I know for sure that people like you describe are out there abusing the system, I tend to think they are the exception, rather than the other way around. I spent a term of service in AmeriCorps, and worked at public housing sites in Cleveland, OH. The kids I worked with most certainly didn't have those types luxuries at home. Now, I think that our society has some strange priorities as a whole, but I guess I get that impression more looking at the other end of the spectrum - people living in McMansions and buying expensive cars and iPhones for their kids. I do think that the genuinely poor are out there, and I think there are a lot more of them than people realize.

Traci - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Jocelyn:



Quoting Mary:




Quoting Sara:





Quoting Sarah:






Quoting Mary:

Absolutely we have to pay for birth control...we have to pay for everything!











OMG!! We get it COMPLETELY free here! We don't even have to pay prescription charges!! That's crazy!! :)















I also want to add that Planned Parenthood provides services and charges fees based on a sliding scale based on income.  But yeah, I have insurance and I still pay $40/month for my birth control, Nuvaring.













Yes...some communities do offer reduced cost family planning services, but certainly not all. I pay 15 dollars/month with insurance (tho not now, b/c i'm pg ;), and my hospital bill for the birth of my first child was around 4,000$, this didn't count the bills for individual docs or for the anesthesiologist (which I needed due to an emergency c-section). We have decent insurance that pays 90% of the bill after our out of pocket expenses which total around 5,000$/year. I'm not sure how people do it with less insurance coverage, or worse, none at all!









i know this is a little off topic, but wow that's crazy expensive!  (im in alberta canada, without extended health care, just the provincial) and i paid $15 for my bc pill and i paid $45 for my hospital bill when i gave birth (and that's only because i wanted the bed with the window) and i was there for 3 days and had an epidural.






no wonder ppl can't afford babies in the states! lol





No, people can MORE than afford babies here in the states......



 



How many of the people "who can't afford babies" ...



--pay $100 a month to their cell phone providers?



--pay $100 a month to their cable/satellite company?



--have two car payments?



--pay all that money to have internet?



--own a computer?



--own a big screen TV?



 



You see, people CAN afford babies, but they have a jacked up priority list.  That is the problem.  They want to go on spending money, hand over fist, and then expect everyone else to pay their medical bills.  They want their kids to wear the best of the best, they want to have their mani/pedi's, they want to have their vacations....Hey, I have an idea...instead of buying and charging all that CRAP--put your money into a savings account!!!  A cell phone bill of $80 a month would be an extra $960 a year in their account, and that's before interest.  That's only sacrificing one luxury. 



 



I know there are always exceptions to the rule, but it is really hard for me to believe that  a MAJORITY of  these people scrimp and save and still cannot afford their babies.  It's about having the right priorities and being responsible.  Save for the future!!! :)  When I see "poor" people on tv at a soup kitchen, using their iPhone, I have a hard time feeling sorry for them.  Get rid of the iPhone and then come talk to me about your sob story, you know? 

Erin - posted on 07/14/2009

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I didn't realise routine abortions could be done so far into a pregnancy elsewhere in the world, and I agree that's why it's so controversial there and not here. While it is obviously still a very personal issue and people have their opinions, it certainly doesn't polarize people the way it seems to in the US.

Christa - posted on 07/14/2009

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Erin, I think that law is great. There absolutely should be counseling involved, I believe before the abortion is performed. I don't think many women really know what they are signing up for when they go in. Your life doesn't magically go back to normal after. Once a mother always a mother. If the US law was like that I don't think this would be quite a hot issue. Granted I don't think they should be done at all, but that is a much better law.

Erin - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Cathy:

What is the actual law regarding abortion in the US?

UK abortion law

Abortion is legal in the UK up to the 24th week of pregnancy. However, if there is a substantial risk to the woman's life or if there are foetal abnormalities there is no time limit.

To comply with the 1967 Abortion Act, two doctors must give their consent, stating that to continue with the pregnancy would present a risk to the physical or mental health of the woman or her existing children.


The cut-off point for abortions in Australia is 12 weeks - that may be why I'm so firmly pro-choice. And there is mandatory counselling associated with the procedure. I must admit I think 24 weeks is quite late for an abortion without a sound medical reason.

Jenny - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Jocelyn:



Quoting Sarah:




Quoting Jocelyn:

This is slightly scary, I was wondering about the rules for abortion in Canada and this is what i found;
Abortion in Canada is not limited by the law. While some non-legal obstacles exist, Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion. Although abortion is defined as termination up to 20 weeks’ gestation, a lack of restrictions on abortion in Canada has made it legal and accessible through all 40 weeks/nine months of pregnancy.

I don't like that one bit; so if you can find a doctor willing to abort at 9 months, you can legally do it... that's a little twisted...







I wonder if that has any effect on their abortion rates compared to other places?? :)









i'm not too sure, it said that there were 30 abortions to every 100 births...






While abortion is not limited in Caanda and is provided free of charge we have a slightly lower rate per capita than the US. Source: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/a...



Other abortion statistics by country, province, state and other areas can be found here: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/a...



Third term abortions are not easily available although they are legal.

Esther - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Cathy:

What is the actual law regarding abortion in the US?

UK abortion law

Abortion is legal in the UK up to the 24th week of pregnancy. However, if there is a substantial risk to the woman's life or if there are foetal abnormalities there is no time limit.

To comply with the 1967 Abortion Act, two doctors must give their consent, stating that to continue with the pregnancy would present a risk to the physical or mental health of the woman or her existing children.



In The Netherlands too the law is that abortion is legal "in cases of emergency" until the 24th week. However, they have deliberately left the definition of "emergency" as vague as possible because what constitutes an emergency for one woman would be a small bump in the road for another woman. So in effect, abortion is legal under any circumstances until the 24th week, and only in clinics that are licensed to perform abortions (qualified medical personel, at least 2 doctors present etc.).



After the 24th week it is only allowed in medical emergencies and there is oversight in place for that.



If a woman wants to have an abortion, she has to make her decision known to a doctor and then there is a mandatory 5 day wait period before the procedure can be performed (on the 6th day).

Esther - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Christa:

Like I said the facts are what they are. Numbers don't lie. Pro-life activists don't make money standing up for their cause.



Christa - that may be true, but politicians do espousing pro-life positions. They are able to raise a lot of money for themselves that way.



As for Planned Parenthood - I don't know that much about them. I don't know how much money they do or do not make on abortions. But I do not believe that anyone takes pleasure in performing abortions and I don't believe that these are bloodthirsty babykillers just out to make a buck. Also, these people's lives are threatened by pro-life (how ironic) activists all the time. And (as we saw in the case of Dr Tiller recently) these are not idle threats. I doubt that the money is THAT good that that alone is what drives them.

[deleted account]

Quoting Jocelyn:

OH i do have a question for those of you in the states, i heard that in order to get an abortion, they make you listen to the heartbeat beforehand to try and get you to change your mind, is that true?



Not sure if this is true or not, since every state has their own laws. But forcing a woman to listen to a heartbeat might have the opposite reaction. If she is so strongly wanting the abortion, the heartbeat mgiht only reaffirm her mindset as "Get it out of me now!" Just a thought though. Likewise, listening to the heartbeat may give the mother something else to reconsider. I firmly believe that education is the key and no one should go into an abortion without being educated about the pros, cons, and procedures first.

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Jocelyn:



Quoting Mary:




Quoting Sara:





Quoting Sarah:






Quoting Mary:

Absolutely we have to pay for birth control...we have to pay for everything!











OMG!! We get it COMPLETELY free here! We don't even have to pay prescription charges!! That's crazy!! :)















I also want to add that Planned Parenthood provides services and charges fees based on a sliding scale based on income.  But yeah, I have insurance and I still pay $40/month for my birth control, Nuvaring.













Yes...some communities do offer reduced cost family planning services, but certainly not all. I pay 15 dollars/month with insurance (tho not now, b/c i'm pg ;), and my hospital bill for the birth of my first child was around 4,000$, this didn't count the bills for individual docs or for the anesthesiologist (which I needed due to an emergency c-section). We have decent insurance that pays 90% of the bill after our out of pocket expenses which total around 5,000$/year. I'm not sure how people do it with less insurance coverage, or worse, none at all!









i know this is a little off topic, but wow that's crazy expensive!  (im in alberta canada, without extended health care, just the provincial) and i paid $15 for my bc pill and i paid $45 for my hospital bill when i gave birth (and that's only because i wanted the bed with the window) and i was there for 3 days and had an epidural.






no wonder ppl can't afford babies in the states! lol





...this is exactly why we need health care reform in the states...I am aware that the cost is high...and like I said, I have pretty decent insurance...I've suggested elsewhere that we, as US citizens, demand that our elected officials no longer get their health care covered by tax payers until they do something about health care for the rest of us...the idea was not met with much acceptance...LOL...

Jocelyn - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Jenifer:



Quoting Jocelyn:

OH i do have a question for those of you in the states, i heard that in order to get an abortion, they make you listen to the heartbeat beforehand to try and get you to change your mind, is that true?





I don't think this is true in most states, though I'm pretty sure they always do an ultrasound beforehand. But maybe what you are thinking of is a law that went into effect in South Dakota last year. There was a lot of controversey about it. Doctors there are now required to read a script to the woman before they can perform an abortion. I couldn't find the text online, but found an article about it:






http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...






 






The sript includes phrases like, the abortion "will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique living human being" and that the woman as a Constitutionally protected existing relationship with the fetus. There was a lot of uproar over it, since in made some medical claims not at all supported by science. Not that any of this matters too much now, South Dakota had only one abortion provider in the entire state, and they've since had to close down.





yes, that was exactly what i was thinking of, thank you!

Jocelyn - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Mary:



Quoting Sara:




Quoting Sarah:





Quoting Mary:

Absolutely we have to pay for birth control...we have to pay for everything!









OMG!! We get it COMPLETELY free here! We don't even have to pay prescription charges!! That's crazy!! :)












I also want to add that Planned Parenthood provides services and charges fees based on a sliding scale based on income.  But yeah, I have insurance and I still pay $40/month for my birth control, Nuvaring.










Yes...some communities do offer reduced cost family planning services, but certainly not all. I pay 15 dollars/month with insurance (tho not now, b/c i'm pg ;), and my hospital bill for the birth of my first child was around 4,000$, this didn't count the bills for individual docs or for the anesthesiologist (which I needed due to an emergency c-section). We have decent insurance that pays 90% of the bill after our out of pocket expenses which total around 5,000$/year. I'm not sure how people do it with less insurance coverage, or worse, none at all!





i know this is a little off topic, but wow that's crazy expensive!  (im in alberta canada, without extended health care, just the provincial) and i paid $15 for my bc pill and i paid $45 for my hospital bill when i gave birth (and that's only because i wanted the bed with the window) and i was there for 3 days and had an epidural.



no wonder ppl can't afford babies in the states! lol

[deleted account]

Quoting Jocelyn:

OH i do have a question for those of you in the states, i heard that in order to get an abortion, they make you listen to the heartbeat beforehand to try and get you to change your mind, is that true?


I don't think this is true in most states, though I'm pretty sure they always do an ultrasound beforehand. But maybe what you are thinking of is a law that went into effect in South Dakota last year. There was a lot of controversey about it. Doctors there are now required to read a script to the woman before they can perform an abortion. I couldn't find the text online, but found an article about it:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...



 



The sript includes phrases like, the abortion "will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique living human being" and that the woman as a Constitutionally protected existing relationship with the fetus. There was a lot of uproar over it, since in made some medical claims not at all supported by science. Not that any of this matters too much now, South Dakota had only one abortion provider in the entire state, and they've since had to close down.

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Sara:



Quoting Sarah:




Quoting Mary:

Absolutely we have to pay for birth control...we have to pay for everything!







OMG!! We get it COMPLETELY free here! We don't even have to pay prescription charges!! That's crazy!! :)









I also want to add that Planned Parenthood provides services and charges fees based on a sliding scale based on income.  But yeah, I have insurance and I still pay $40/month for my birth control, Nuvaring.






Yes...some communities do offer reduced cost family planning services, but certainly not all. I pay 15 dollars/month with insurance (tho not now, b/c i'm pg ;), and my hospital bill for the birth of my first child was around 4,000$, this didn't count the bills for individual docs or for the anesthesiologist (which I needed due to an emergency c-section). We have decent insurance that pays 90% of the bill after our out of pocket expenses which total around 5,000$/year. I'm not sure how people do it with less insurance coverage, or worse, none at all!

Sara - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Sarah:



Quoting Mary:

Absolutely we have to pay for birth control...we have to pay for everything!





OMG!! We get it COMPLETELY free here! We don't even have to pay prescription charges!! That's crazy!! :)





I also want to add that Planned Parenthood provides services and charges fees based on a sliding scale based on income.  But yeah, I have insurance and I still pay $40/month for my birth control, Nuvaring.

[deleted account]

I am pro-choice. I don't think anyone has the right to tell me what I should do with my body. I do believe that any woman considering an abortion needs to go through counseling or some kind of mini-psychological consultation so she knows and is fully informed of the procedure. I am glad I live in a society that I can make that choice. I believe that this is a medical choice that a woman makes with her doctor and/or partner and not the government. I do not like the fact that there are women out there that do use abortion as a form of birth control. These are lazy and irresponsible women, IMO. But, like I said I am glad that women do have that choice even if I think these women are idiots. I do not agree with late term abortions unless it is proven that the mother's health is in jeopardy or the baby is deemed terminal. During that 1st trimester, and even up to part of the 2nd trimester, a woman has plenty of time to consider this procedure. I also believe woman who have thoughtfully considered an abortion as the best option for them is a smart decision. There are woman who would purposefully damage their pregnant bodies-drinking, smoking, illegal drugs, wild roller coasters, etc. if they were told "No, you HAVE to give birth." There are women that would sink into severe depression/suicidal tendancies if they were told they must carry an unwanted baby. There are women who would abandon a baby at birth if denied an abortion.



I resepct everyone's opposing viewpoints, jsut as I woudl hope you respect mine. We may disagree on the topic, but it's not the first, nor last topic we may disagree on. I don't shove my opinions down other people's throats, just as I would hope you don't preach your opinions to me. When asll is said and done, abortion is still a very much divded issue that will never have a happy medium.

[deleted account]

Quoting Sarah:

Do you have to pay for birth control in the US?? :)


Yes. There may be some free birth control programs for low income earners, but I'm not aware of any. When I was in college, my birth control pills were discounted by my university health clinic, so I paid $10 a month. That's what I pay now with insurance coverage. Some insurance companies, however, do not cover any birth control and you have to pay full price.

[deleted account]

Quoting Sarah:

Do you have to pay for birth control in the US?? :)


Yes. There may be some free birth control programs for low income earners, but I'm not aware of any. When I was in college, my birth control pills were discounted by my university health clinic, so I paid $10 a month. That's what I pay now with insurance coverage. Some insurance companies, however, do not cover any birth control and you have to pay full price.

Jocelyn - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Sarah:



Quoting Jocelyn:

This is slightly scary, I was wondering about the rules for abortion in Canada and this is what i found;
Abortion in Canada is not limited by the law. While some non-legal obstacles exist, Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion. Although abortion is defined as termination up to 20 weeks’ gestation, a lack of restrictions on abortion in Canada has made it legal and accessible through all 40 weeks/nine months of pregnancy.

I don't like that one bit; so if you can find a doctor willing to abort at 9 months, you can legally do it... that's a little twisted...





I wonder if that has any effect on their abortion rates compared to other places?? :)





i'm not too sure, it said that there were 30 abortions to every 100 births...

Sarah - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Mary:

Absolutely we have to pay for birth control...we have to pay for everything!


OMG!! We get it COMPLETELY free here! We don't even have to pay prescription charges!! That's crazy!! :)

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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Absolutely we have to pay for birth control...we have to pay for everything!

Sarah - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Jocelyn:

This is slightly scary, I was wondering about the rules for abortion in Canada and this is what i found;
Abortion in Canada is not limited by the law. While some non-legal obstacles exist, Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion. Although abortion is defined as termination up to 20 weeks’ gestation, a lack of restrictions on abortion in Canada has made it legal and accessible through all 40 weeks/nine months of pregnancy.

I don't like that one bit; so if you can find a doctor willing to abort at 9 months, you can legally do it... that's a little twisted...


I wonder if that has any effect on their abortion rates compared to other places?? :)

Jocelyn - posted on 07/14/2009

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This is slightly scary, I was wondering about the rules for abortion in Canada and this is what i found;
Abortion in Canada is not limited by the law. While some non-legal obstacles exist, Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion. Although abortion is defined as termination up to 20 weeks’ gestation, a lack of restrictions on abortion in Canada has made it legal and accessible through all 40 weeks/nine months of pregnancy.

I don't like that one bit; so if you can find a doctor willing to abort at 9 months, you can legally do it... that's a little twisted...

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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I'm sorry for that last post...I try not to let my emotions get the best of me, and that was completely off the topic.

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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Maybe not...but they aren't all pictures of morality either...During the DNC they drove pictures of aborted fetuses past grade schools in Denver...They might not make money, but they sure aren't afraid to traumatize people/children to get their point across.

Christa - posted on 07/14/2009

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Like I said the facts are what they are. Numbers don't lie. Pro-life activists don't make money standing up for their cause.

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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Right...and just because right wing publications claim that PP is the devil, doesn't make it so.

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Christa:



Quoting Mary:

I've talked about my sister in another thread, so briefly...She just graduated from college (magna cum laude :), and got engaged to her long time bf. She had not found a job yet, and lost her insurance through my parents when she discovered she was pregnant. No insurance...so the only place she could afford to have a medical pg test to confirm the pg was Planned Parenthood. NO ONE pressured her to have an abortion, they told her the service was available there, she told them she wasn't interested, and NOTHING more was said. PP is not the devil...they are there to help women who have no other resources...get over it!





 






It's good that your sister had a good experience but there are many women who have very different stories.  And they are the #1 advocate for abortion, they are the biggest lobbyist for abortion.  Come on Obama was making them promises and speaking at their events, because of how much money they throw around.  They do make most of their profits from abortion, so to me that is a major conflict of interest.  When a company is making millions off of killing babies, why would I trust them to give women honest unbiased information.  The facts are there plain as day, so I don't think that they are out for the best choice for the mother.  If abortion numbers were reduced because of legislation they would loose millions.  You know they aren't making much money off giving girls the pill and testing them for HIV.  They couldn't survive off just that.  If they also made money off of women carrying babies to term, then I would say they were unbiased.  But they don't, they make very little money off a women who decides to keep her baby.






 






Every corporation in America’s #1 focus is selling their product to stay in business, well PP’s product is abortions.






 






Yes...I agree...who gets to lobby our elected officials and with how much money is a serious problem in this country...but I don't see what that has to do with abortion rights. There are far worse offenders (oil companies, gun lobbies, etc...), and while I'm all for changing these rules, it doesn't change my mind about a woman's right to make a private medical decision with her doctor.

ME - posted on 07/14/2009

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I believe that the law here is up to the 14th week...or in the case of physical risk to the mother it can be done later.

Christa - posted on 07/14/2009

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Quoting Mary:

I've talked about my sister in another thread, so briefly...She just graduated from college (magna cum laude :), and got engaged to her long time bf. She had not found a job yet, and lost her insurance through my parents when she discovered she was pregnant. No insurance...so the only place she could afford to have a medical pg test to confirm the pg was Planned Parenthood. NO ONE pressured her to have an abortion, they told her the service was available there, she told them she wasn't interested, and NOTHING more was said. PP is not the devil...they are there to help women who have no other resources...get over it!


 



It's good that your sister had a good experience but there are many women who have very different stories.  And they are the #1 advocate for abortion, they are the biggest lobbyist for abortion.  Come on Obama was making them promises and speaking at their events, because of how much money they throw around.  They do make most of their profits from abortion, so to me that is a major conflict of interest.  When a company is making millions off of killing babies, why would I trust them to give women honest unbiased information.  The facts are there plain as day, so I don't think that they are out for the best choice for the mother.  If abortion numbers were reduced because of legislation they would loose millions.  You know they aren't making much money off giving girls the pill and testing them for HIV.  They couldn't survive off just that.  If they also made money off of women carrying babies to term, then I would say they were unbiased.  But they don't, they make very little money off a women who decides to keep her baby.



 



Every corporation in America’s #1 focus is selling their product to stay in business, well PP’s product is abortions.



 

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