Abortion. Thoughts feelings... opinions

Rebecca - posted on 03/28/2012

Actually, I watched the Gloria Steinem bio on HBO the other day and they were showing footage and articles from before R v W. Because I was wasn't born when R v W came about, I'm not sure I actually saw any of the real gritty photos and heard the horrible stories of women accidentally killing themselves trying to abort a child or dying because some back alley "doctor" didn't do it correctly. They had pictures of victims naked in child's pose, after a botched abortion and they all carried around hangers to remind people of what women were doing to have abortions.



It was shocking to me and I felt naive about what it means to have the choice to have an abortion to women's health. I think we have come so far from that time that people have forgotten the grown women who died in horrific desperation trying to do something that should have be available to them. I think we've become soft because of the distance from those images and first hand accounts.



Personally, it only reminded me more why it is important to have non-lethal (for the patient), clean, regulated abortion services available to anyone who needs to use them.

Cathy - posted on 03/28/2012

***** Mod Notice *****



This thread is being locked for review.



Cathy S.

Karla - posted on 03/28/2012

Except for this...



which people don't seem to acknowledge with facts...



Before Roe vs Wade there was an estimated 1 million abortions in the US, some legal in states where it was legal, some illegal. That is more abortions than happen annually today.



so...



My point and subsequent question: desperate woman will still get an abortion whether or not it is legal. Why change the legal status?

Karla - posted on 03/28/2012

Meme: ”I am not necessarily pro-life for a junkie neither. They do not help our society.”



Ok, I just told you that someone I love dearly has problems with addiction and has had 2 abortions and that’s how you respond?



Guess what… the junkie’s fetus is a junkie by default… so I guess I can infer that abortion is okay in these circumstances in your little world.



That pretty much settles the debate for me.

Karla - posted on 03/28/2012

Meme: ”We were debating if it was illegal what would happen to those that said they were raped, how would they prove they really were and weren't just saying it. I simply stated how it is handled now if you were raped and make a claim.... That's all nothing less nothing more. It was a fucking innocent reply. I did not mean to hurt anyone. “



Are you getting the point that other’s are trying to make?



If a woman says she is pregnant due to rape you are insisting she go through a proving ground – you claim she would have to do this anyway, Put here’s the point… no she would NOT.



Some women choose not to report their rape so would NOT be going through this “strenuous invasion,” but (with your method) now because they are pregnant they must. So in attempting to weed out false claims of pregnancy due to rape you are also insisting that all claims of pregnancy due to rape be scrutinized further victimizing victims of rape.

Stifler's - posted on 03/28/2012

This has been discussed before on here but if you're pro choice in certain circumstances then you're pro choice not pro life. You can't pick and choose.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

Well, then there it is. I could careless... really. It is not my view, it was a thought. A thought of how it may work if it were illegal. It isn't illegal now is it. Pfffttt. Go jump up someone else's ass....

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

It doesn't MATTER who you were replying you, your reply quite clearly states that this is your view. And this is what people have an issue with, your view that rape victims should be further victimised before aborting the baby of that rape (as if having to go through the rape and the abortion weren't enough).



Edited to Add: In a debate, hypothetical replies still count, because often....that's what a debate is, hypothetical.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

MeMe---

For brutal rape, trying the morning after pill is first, if it fails (since 10% of the time it may), then an abortion should be permitted.



This is what I believe. Yep, I made those other statements, in reply to Krista's question of how they would know if it was a for real claim. Honestly, you're right. I did not take into account those that have been raped, since I was answering the question at hand, thinking only of how to weed out the liars.



However, it was a hypothetical reply. Since I agree and it has been my stance from page 1-6 that rape is a reason for an abortion.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

Is that really what you think you posted, MeMe?

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2012

Meme, you are the one doing the personal attacking here.



Against rape victims and anyone who disagrees with you.



"After this is complete and it is concluded that in fact they were raped (or at least suspected to have been) than yes, I think they should be granted an abortion"



I can read that. Just fine thanks. YOU feel that if they are subjected to testing YOU think is appropriate to prove what they say was done to them, then YOU say that they can have an abortion.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

LMAO - Krista M... Yeah that's right... ;) It was the first words on Page 9, first comment of the page.



Meme, you are missing the point. You believe abortion should be banned but available for rape victims. It therefore makes sense that you believe rape victims should have to go through rigorous testing before being permitted to have an abortion. Doesn't that just follow?



No, it doesn't. Initially, I have always believed a rape victim should be able to get an abortion. Regardless. Then the question was asked, well how can they prove they were really raped and it was not just some bullshit story? I gave my reply. To include how a rape claim would be handled today.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

"I think there could be "just" cause. That they would however, have to be subjected to intense and vigurous interagation. They would be made to file a rape complaint. They would have to speak with a psychologist and medical team. There would have to be something in place to ensure they are telling the truth and for those that would lie, they would have to be willing to go through a strenuous invasion. After this is complete and it is concluded that in fact they were raped (or at least suspected to have been) than yes, I think they should be granted an abortion."



^^^There is what you said. See all those "I think"s? That's your view. You have quite clearly stated that YOU THINK that after going through that strenuous testing they can be granted an abortion.



Believe me, there are plenty of people here reading.



Consider for a moment that perhaps, when there are a whole large group of people who are totally disagreeing and offended by your post, that you DID actually write that and offend people, not that all those other people are reading it wrong?

Krista - posted on 03/28/2012

I didn't see anything in which she said that to you, Meme. Perhaps you're just a little defensive because you know you're wrong and yet you don't want to admit it?

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

Meme, you are missing the point. You believe abortion should be banned but available for rape victims. It therefore makes sense that you believe rape victims should have to go through rigorous testing before being permitted to have an abortion. Doesn't that just follow?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

Nice to delete it Johnny.. Whatever... I saw it and I think you are fucking cruel to jump down my fucking throat.



We were debating if it was illegal what would happen to those that said they were raped, how would they prove they really were and weren't just saying it. I simply stated how it is handled now if you were raped and make a claim.... That's all nothing less nothing more. It was a fucking innocent reply. I did not mean to hurt anyone.



"I never said a rape victim should go through this testing. I said if it was illegal, except in the premise of rape, this is the testing they would put you through."



But that IS saying that you believe rape victims should go through the testing to prove they have been raped before they are allowed to have an abortion!



Bullshit! I have said numerous times that abortion should be legal for all rape victims, mothers that could die from pregnancy and if the baby has a severe disability. The question was then asked how would they know if the person was really raped. I stated how they do it now! That's it. I was not saying that is what they should do. I believe abortion should be there for anyone that says they were raped.



Yeah I can see how people just jump and don't fucken read!

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

Well, she called all of us uneducated, so I'm thinking what's good for the goose...... But telling people to go fuck themselves is just not okay..

Charlie - posted on 03/28/2012

Geeze, the several women here who have posted could not have made it clearer especially from a rape victim.



Perhaps your inability to understand their explanations is part of the reason you fail miserably at understanding how your idea to apply "vigorous and intense interrogation " used for in court cases (although not quite the picture you paint) towards a rape victim for the purpose of abortion simplistic and lacking in any understanding of the complexity of the situation when applied to a rape/abortion situation.

Krista - posted on 03/28/2012

I called her ignorant. Not a bitch, though.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

I wondered who called her an ignorant bitch too, Johnny.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

"This is what they have to do now if you claim rape. So, if it was illegal to have an abortion unless you were raped, YES, this is what they would do in order for you to get an abortion."



Right, and you are condoning this.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

"I never said a rape victim should go through this testing. I said if it was illegal, except in the premise of rape, this is the testing they would put you through."



But that IS saying that you believe rape victims should go through the testing to prove they have been raped before they are allowed to have an abortion!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

Jodi---



Except that you are also, by saying that, saying that women who ARE victims will also have to succumb to the same test, and by doing so, are being further victimised.



This is what they have to do now if you claim rape. So, if it was illegal to have an abortion unless you were raped, YES, this is what they would do in order for you to get an abortion. Fuck me... seriously... what bullshit...

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2012

Who called you an ignorant bitch?

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2012

"I never said a rape victim should go through this testing. I said if it was illegal, except in the premise of rape, this is the testing they would put you through. Fuck me, seriously? If you are all so aware of what happens, then why the fuck is this such a shock? I was simply saying that if it was illegal and a person claimed rape to get an abortion THIS IS WHAT THEY WOULD DO! SINCE IT IS WHAT THEY DO! "



Which is why it should not be illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1



You are really fucking rude.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

Oh and calling me an ignorant bitch isn't??

Stifler's - posted on 03/28/2012

So a person who is raped and too embarrassed to make a rape claim has to go through with having their baby because they didn't prove they were raped?

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2012

A woman should not have to file a claim to prove she was raped. It is that simple. It should be her choice to press charges and file a crime report. Her option to abort her child should not be based on whether she wants to "prove" her rape to the authorities. How difficult is that to understand?



The woman's choice to participate in the act was taken away. First violation. Her choice about what to do after that, report it or not, abort a child or not, should not be taken away as a second violation.



I am not blowing this out of proportion and if you were ever raped, you would understand.



If you are so insistent that it happened to you, why don't you prove it?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

I was 14 when I was raped. I was raped by my boyfriends best friend while I was puking from drinking too much. I had no where to fucking go. I was at his fucken house.



I never said a rape victim should go through this testing. I said if it was illegal, except in the premise of rape, this is the testing they would put you through. Fuck me, seriously? If you are all so aware of what happens, then why the fuck is this such a shock? I was simply saying that if it was illegal and a person claimed rape to get an abortion THIS IS WHAT THEY WOULD DO! SINCE IT IS WHAT THEY DO!

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

"A person lying about it in order to get an abortion would end up surrcoming this very testing. It would rectify whether they were telling the truth or not."



Except that you are also, by saying that, saying that women who ARE victims will also have to succumb to the same test, and by doing so, are being further victimised.

Krista - posted on 03/28/2012

This thread needs to be closed. I can't take anymore of her posting in this idiotic manner. It's offensive to me and many other members of this board.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

Meme, you can't tell people to go fuck themselves. That's kind of crossing the line.

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2012

After my rape, I feared that I could be pregnant. My period would have happened during those 10 days where I bled, but I couldn't tell. The morning after pill didn't yet exist. I thought about going to the women's clinic to get tested to get an abortion and decided against it. I carefully waited a month, and was very relieved when my period started about a week late. The key thing was, I got to decide. It was my choice to make. No one else's.

Krista - posted on 03/28/2012

I don't care if someone MIGHT be lying in order to get an abortion. It doesn't matter because that person MIGHT NOT be lying to get that abortion and you're forcing them to be violated all over again.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

"Do you think they will just take their word for it and send them on their marry fucking way?"



Um, yes. That's exactly it. Why do you feel the need to further victimise them? That's just sick IMO.

Krista - posted on 03/28/2012

Okay, I am EXTREMELY offended and shocked that you (Meme) would suggest that a RAPE vitcim would have to undergo "intense and vigorous" interrogation in order to deem them qualified for an abortion. And I too doubt that you have EVER been raped at all. Because if you had, you would know the shame, humiliation and sense of loss that would have come from it. Saying that a RAPE VICTIM has to be made to go through that is making them a victim ALL OVER AGAIN.

IF someone files a police report against their attacker (many do not, but not for the reasons you have stated) they are already subject to reliving the attack once. Now you want to make them do it AGAIN?

I did not file a police report. My rape was by that of someone who was set up for me by someone I knew. It was not violent, but I was violated. I was scared. I wanted it to be over with. And even though I said no many times, he would not take no for an answer. I was ashamed, humiliated, violated and scared. I wanted to wash away all that had happened and never think on it again. Easier said than done, I assure you. However, had I gotten PREGNANT from that experience and someone had interrogated me about WHY I wanted an abortion, I honestly think I would have killed myself. Because I couldn't go through that again. It would be a fucking mind fuck and so completely unecessary.



I really think you should take into account the FEELINGS of people who HAVE been raped before you type out another sentence in this thread, because you come off as close-minded and ignorant.

Kate CP - posted on 03/28/2012

MeMe, many of the women on this board you're telling to find out what happens to a rape victim are, in fact, rape victims. They experienced the horror first hand. And to tell a rape victim that they have to be interrogated (your word, not mine) is cruel. It's in the same realm as demanding they have a vaginal ultra-sound before having the abortion. It's intimidating for the sake of intimidation. It's demeaning for no other purpose than to shame a woman into doing something she doesn't want to do: have a baby.



Why is this so hard for women to understand? If a woman doesn't want to have a baby it's her fucking right to NOT have a baby. Saying she can't have an abortion because it's not fair to the mass of cells inside her is ludicrous. A mass of cells in a Petri dish has the possibility for life but it doesn't make it sentient. Same thing, guys.

Charlie - posted on 03/28/2012

." There are many reasons. Do you not fucking get that? To suggest that the reason women don't go through the testing because they are not true victims is absolutely vile."



Exactly Jodi.



You have quite the simplistic view Meme.

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2012

I was raped. I did not report. I was young, stupid and drunk and didn't think anyone would care or believe me because I had seen people I know report their rapes and be put through hell, never being believed, being treated like liars, even with positive rape kits having police question them and treat them like they were the criminals. I bled for 10 days, when I finally went to the hospital the nurse asked if I had been raped, but told me it was too late to report it anyway. I still have the scars.



As an adult, I have worked with women who were raped through Women Against Violence Against Women. Some reported, some didn't. Some were raped by family, some by friends, some by spouses, some by strangers. I know EXACTLY what happens when you make a rape claim because I have sat through the process with many women.



I do not believe you were ever raped. You are the only woman I have ever said that to. Not one woman who has ever told me she was raped would ever go on to say the things you are saying about rape victims.

Stifler's - posted on 03/28/2012

Why should anyone justify why they have an abortion? No ones reason is more valid than anyone elses to me. If you don't want a baby and will have them, resent them, abuse them then have an abortion. It's not as freaking easy as give them up for adoption!! Adopting your baby out is hard. That baby also might track you down later and want to know their bio parents.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

I am seriously thankful you are only a computer engineer and not out there counselling young rape victims.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

Are you serious? You know NOTHING about rape victims. Some women get raped and don't report it because of MANY different reasons. Some choose not to go through the rigorous testing BECAUSE THEY FEEL THAT IS JUST AS MUCH A VIOLATION AS THE ACTUAL RAPE WAS. MANY women don't go through it because they don't want to have to face what has happened. There are many reasons. Do you not fucking get that? To suggest that the reason women don't go through the testing because they are not true victims is absolutely vile.

Jodi - posted on 03/28/2012

Meme, you are aware, aren't you, that a significant number of true victims never actually come forward.

Charlie - posted on 03/28/2012

Wow Meme.

Of all the absurd, rediculous, insensitive, violating and inhuman things ......that takes the cake.



Truly disturbing to say the least.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

Even if you tell me you have been a victim of rape, I will never believe you after reading this bile. There is no way anyone who had suffered through such a thing could write that.



Johnny, what do you think happens when you are raped and are sent to have a rape kit done? Enough said.



ill? fuck no. Just telling it like it already is. So, if a rape victim already HAS to go through this process when claiming rape, since it is the only way they can prove she was raped. I think it is a good way to weed all the bullshitters out. Thanks for asking though. ;)



You have absolutely no clue what I had to go through. So, if you feel compelled to go off on your little fucken cloud 9 episode, go at er'. I have been there, so if I were you I would be careful on what personal attacks you are fucking making.



ETA:

So, you are saying it is all good for them to make a true rape victim go through this grueling, invasive process but it is NOT OK to make those that are lying through their selfish ass go through it? HUH?



You're a a joke Johnny. Seriously. Go learn what happens to a rape victim, then come back and re-tell me what you just fucking said.

Kate CP - posted on 03/28/2012

"...When it comes to rape, I really do not know all the answers. I think there could be "just" cause. That they would however, have to be subjected to intense and vigurous interagation. They would be made to file a rape complaint. They would have to speak with a psychologist and medical team. There would have to be something in place to ensure they are telling the truth and for those that would lie, they would have to be willing to go through a strenuous invasion. After this is complete and it is concluded that in fact they were raped (or at least suspected to have been) than yes, I think they should be granted an abortion..."



All I have to say is thank Christ you're not a law maker. :/

Johnny - posted on 03/28/2012

"When it comes to rape, I really do not know all the answers. I think there could be "just" cause. That they would however, have to be subjected to intense and vigurous interagation. They would be made to file a rape complaint. They would have to speak with a psychologist and medical team. There would have to be something in place to ensure they are telling the truth and for those that would lie, they would have to be willing to go through a strenuous invasion. After this is complete and it is concluded that in fact they were raped (or at least suspected to have been) than yes, I think they should be granted an abortion. "





Holy fuck. I am hoping you are being purposefully obtuse and difficult, because this is one of the cruelest suggestions I have ever seen related to abortion aside from the people who suggest that abortion should be illegal even if the mother has to die.



Even if you tell me you have been a victim of rape, I will never believe you after reading this bile. There is no way anyone who had suffered through such a thing could write that.



Actually, no one with an ounce of compassion for their fellow humans could even write something like that. You want me to think you care about all these unborn children when you can not even care about living breathing women who were subjected to a horrific act? .

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

It's not solving a problem if you should have been avoiding it to begin with. If you were not partaking in sex safely (by doubling up contraception) and get pregnant, you are negating your responsibilities. You are not accepting onus for your mistake.



It is solving a problem though, when it becomes a life threatening situation for the mother or baby. I agree there.

Jen - posted on 03/28/2012

No wonder so many people are unable to manage their problems. They are too busy pawning them off and giving up. They are too busy saying "ah well, maybe next time I will take care of my actions".... I am of course, speaking here in regards to misuse of abortion, not when used in serious reasoning.

--



See, I don't see abortion as pawning off a problem. It's solving a problem in a very real, final sense



But you're right, these are hypotheticals.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/28/2012

I do want to state though, that if it was illegal and you tried to misscarry. You'd better hope it works for sure, otherwise they may just end up having a baby with a disability. Now, that would not be a good thing would it...