Another vaccine debate - groan! What would you do?

Becky - posted on 03/15/2011 ( 264 moms have responded )

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So, I'm not sure I've mentioned this before in vaccine debates, but my youngest sister is a non-vaxxer. (did I spell that right?) She buys into all this Dr. Mercola stuff. She has tried to convince the rest of us not to vaccinate too, but we're not buying it, we vaccinate. She has an 11 month old daughter.
Anyway, to this point, it hasn't really been an issue, because my kids are older than hers and are vaccinated. But, now we're trying to have another baby. My mom was telling me she was concerned about my niece not being vaccinated the other day, and that got my husband and I talking about it. He said that if my sister does not vaccinate her daughter, when we have another baby, her daughter is not allowed around him/her at all until our child is vaccinated. That's going to cause issues in my family! Obviously, the health of my child is my first concern, but this is my sister and my niece...
What would you do? If you had a newborn, would you keep unvaccinated family members/close friends away from them, or is that going to the extreme?

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Kate CP - posted on 02/28/2012

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Let me reiterate something: If a child has a personal or familial history of vaccine reactions then YES vaccines should be approached with extreme caution (if done at all). But, to not vaccinate simply because you don't like the ingredients is a ridiculous stance. We come into contact with all those toxins on a daily basis in much higher doses than a shot given three times in a child's life.



The idea that we're bypassing a defense system of the skin and injecting toxins and pathogens directly into the bloodstream is ALSO incorrect. There is NO vaccine on the market that has been designed to go directly into the blood (intro-veinous).



The idea that it weakens our immune system is another fallacy. The body is introduced to a weaker form of the pathogen in a vaccine and then makes antibodies based on the proteins found in the pathogen. Whereas when a child comes into contact with a fully-infections pathogen there IS no way to prepare their immune system. It is simply bombarded with the pathogen and must then defend itself by fighting off the pathogen AND making antibodies. Even after an illness a child may not be immune to it. It all depends on their physiological make up. This is why vaccines aren't a 100% guarantee to guard against a pathogen. But, they are a safer way to build an immunity to a virus or bacteria than just infecting children with the disease.



Not vaccinating your family because you're afraid of the shots is faulty logic. It doesn't hold water.

Kate CP - posted on 02/27/2012

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"Happy to hear that Kate"



Really. You're happy that I have an immune disorder? You're happy that a small cut can give me cellulitis and land me in the hospital for months? You're happy that a common cold or flu bug could kill me? You're happy that I may have passed this down to my children but we won't know for years to come?



YOU'RE HAPPY?!



Fuck you AND your "happy".

Kate CP - posted on 03/16/2011

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Well, if your niece attends school or daycare and isn't vaccinated then yes, I would have that kid stay the hell away from my infant. But, if she stays at home and has limited exposure to other people who could be carrying contagious pathogens then honestly the girl wouldn't be any more dangerous than your mom or your husband.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/27/2012

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If you were in a lab, seriously??? You would be proved wrong. I suppose that would be a good thing. For you to see first hand.

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Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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"I agree it never should have bypassed Baxter's labs. But you are incorrect when you say that "the tainted vaccines were shipped all over the world". That is NOT the case.



These were flu SAMPLES that were shipped to labs in 18 separate countries, to be made INTO vaccines. They were made into vaccines, tested, and the error was caught. No harm, no foul. " -- This time Krista. Baxter labs has the higher safety standards. If it bypassed that labs safety protocols, it could very well have passed the LOWER safety protocols of the other labs. Is that not concerning?? does it not concern you that the tainted material have no business being near the other flu materials??

Krista - posted on 02/28/2012

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Oh, and Kelly...how are you going to prevent tetanus, then, if not with vaccinations?



Tell you what -- why don't you go out and give yourself a good poke in the hand with a rusty nail? Then go home, and wash out the wound. Don't get a tetanus shot, whatever you do.



Let us know how that works out for you, m'kay?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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Kelly "The tainted vaccines were shipped all over the world. The problem is, Baxter is a BSL3 safety lab. It never should have bypassed those tests. "



You didn't just say it was shipped, you said they were administered.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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"Tetanus is found everywhere. It lives in soil, manure and the digestive tracts of animals and people.



So how, precisely, is this an argument AGAINST vaccinations?



If anything, I would think it actually works as an argument FOR the tetanus vaccination, if one can contract tetanus from any source." -- I was agreeing with the poster that it is in more places then rusty nails.

Krista - posted on 02/28/2012

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The tainted vaccines were shipped all over the world. The problem is, Baxter is a BSL3 safety lab. It never should have bypassed those tests.



I agree it never should have bypassed Baxter's labs. But you are incorrect when you say that "the tainted vaccines were shipped all over the world". That is NOT the case.



These were flu SAMPLES that were shipped to labs in 18 separate countries, to be made INTO vaccines. They were made into vaccines, tested, and the error was caught. No harm, no foul.



And this proves that you are arguing in bad faith. I have stated time and time again that Baxter shipped samples, not vaccinations. My source backs that up. And yet, you persist in stating that "tainted vaccines were shipped all over the world", making the situation sound a HELL of a lot worse than it actually was.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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So Kelly, really...do you honestly even know why you are against vaccinations? Cause really, not one piece of information that you have supplied has given one decent shred of evidence that people should stop receiving vaccinations. In fact, if anything, you have strengthened the poitn that it is VERY important to GIVE vaccinations, and how dangerous it is to be misinformed like you are.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/28/2012

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Exactly, which is why they often ask you to wait 10-15 mins when your baby first gets vaccinated... You know, waiting for their head to pop off or something! ;) Since, you know, vaccines can do that, just like they cause HIV and Cancers..



**rolling eyes**

Krista - posted on 02/28/2012

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Tetanus is found everywhere. It lives in soil, manure and the digestive tracts of animals and people.



So how, precisely, is this an argument AGAINST vaccinations?



If anything, I would think it actually works as an argument FOR the tetanus vaccination, if one can contract tetanus from any source.

Kate CP - posted on 02/28/2012

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"Kate, if you punctured the skin then you are bypassing the SKIN."



So, by YOUR argument, there is NO way to prevent tetanus then. Because a PUNCTURE of the skin leads DIRECTLY to the blood stream.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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Into the muscle is where the vaccination goes, and Kate knows that. It takes time to absorb into the muscle and goes into the blood stream.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/28/2012

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Actually they go into the muscle..... Not directly into the blood stream either...

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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The tainted vaccines were shipped all over the world. The problem is, Baxter is a BSL3 safety lab. It never should have bypassed those tests.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/28/2012

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Also, if everything is filtered through the liver before hitting our blood stream, then how the hell do you get DRUNK? Damn, I have been had, must have been a mind over matter thing for me. I would hope since alcohol is foreign to our body it would be defeated by all our internal defenses, if that was how it worked but, it's not. What about Tylenol or any other drug given orally? Antibiotics, Cancer treatments, ADHD meds.... These things don't really work? SHIT! that is news for me and many I think.... ;)

Kate CP - posted on 02/28/2012

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"Skin is one of our major defense mechanisms. And you just bypassed it."



No, the injection goes INTO the skin. It doesn't go into the blood stream directly. There is NO vaccine that is intraveinous. They are ALL sub-q. Thus, IN the skin. Your argument doesn't work, Kelly. You're not bypassing ANY defenses by getting a vaccine.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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Tetanus is found everywhere. It lives in soil, manure and the digestive tracts of animals and people.

Krista - posted on 02/28/2012

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I stated that they were not "shipped all over". I used the scare quotes because I was under the impression that YOU were stating that avian-flu-infested vaccinations had been shipped hither and yon to unsuspecting countries and then distributed.



So my statement was based upon what you appeared to be saying.



Yes, the sample left the Baxter labs. It went to other labs, they made them into vaccines, tested them, realized what was happening, and pulled the plug.



So once again, WHY is this a huge issue to you? They caught it. The scientific process worked. This incident no more proves that vaccines, overall, are unsafe than it proves that cars are inherently unsafe because faulty parts have occasionally been found during the safety testing phase of manufacturing.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/28/2012

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Rotavax is NOT an injection, it is oral.. OPV is oral, thus the O...



Did you or didn't you just say the following?



Even if you eat something it is contained withing the digestive tract. In order to enter the blood stream or more importantly the brain it has to go through all our defense mechanism we have set in place. It has to be filtered thru our liver.



Vaccines are being injected right into our newborns and childrens system. Bypassing ALL defenses. It is a complete assault on their bodies and their brains.



Now, I am really confused... Tippsy Turny Tippsy Turny

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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You have absolutely no ground to stand on with all your theories. You are floundering now.

Kate CP - posted on 02/28/2012

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Tetanus isn't just found on metal objects. It's on glass and plastic as well. Puncture wounds constantly get infected even if kept very clean. The blood supply just isn't good enough in a puncture wound to prevent infection.

Kate CP - posted on 02/28/2012

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"Agreed Kate. We do have many horrible ingredients. However, there is one major difference. All the ingredients from household products are outside the body. Even if you eat something it is contained withing the digestive tract. In order to enter the blood stream or more importantly the brain it has to go through all our defense mechanism we have set in place. It has to be filtered thru our liver.



Vaccines are being injected right into our newborns and childrens system. Bypassing ALL defenses. It is a complete assault on their bodies and their brains."



No, that's not how the human body works, Kelly. When something is absorbed into the skin or into the digestive tract is is also absorbed into the blood stream. This is why pain patches work so well for people who are terminally ill. This is why suppositories work so well. It gets absorbed into the blood stream. The vaccines do not get injected directly into the blood stream. They are injected into the skin. They are introduced to the body the same way all these other toxins are and in a much smaller dose.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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All that stuff is being process through your body. Lotions absorb into the skin, and most of the everyday products do. Especially cleaners.

Krista - posted on 02/28/2012

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Sorry Krista, I did miss your tetanus post. Tetanus is not contagious. Why its included in our shots is beyond me. Clean wound upkeep is the best course of action.



Oh my lord, seriously?



Seriously?



You think that just cleaning a puncture wound with a rusty nail will be effective against tetanus?



Just stop it. You're not even trying anymore. Go read the damn link I posted. Tetanus is RAMPANT in countries where they're not vaccinated against it.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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You stated that it was never shipped out, does that not mean it would still be in the Baxter labs??

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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Nope you didn't answer. I am not the one having trouble keeping up, you even admitted to missing posts. Instead of trying to insult everyone, maybe start being civil and have a debate.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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Agreed Kate. We do have many horrible ingredients. However, there is one major difference. All the ingredients from household products are outside the body. Even if you eat something it is contained withing the digestive tract. In order to enter the blood stream or more importantly the brain it has to go through all our defense mechanism we have set in place. It has to be filtered thru our liver.



Vaccines are being injected right into our newborns and childrens system. Bypassing ALL defenses. It is a complete assault on their bodies and their brains.

Krista - posted on 02/28/2012

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You are arguing in bad faith.



This was your claim: "There was a HUGE deal in 2009 where thousands of flu shots were tainted with live avian flu. They were shipped all over, 18 countries received it."



I countered with: " Yes, they sent samples to labs that contained Avian flu instead of the seasonal flu virus. They discovered this while doing the animal testing, realized what had happened, and the vaccine was never distributed to the public. So no, thousands of flu shots were not tainted with the flu, nor "shipped all over". They caught the error in the lab. "



And then you countered with: ""Yes, I'm referring to Baxter. and it was distributed to 18 Countries. It was after that, that a test lab inoculated animals and they died that it was found. It was NOT discovered in the lab of Baxter. That is a lie."



You are arguing in bad faith.



I never claimed that this was discovered in Baxter's labs. So you are arguing against a strawman.



I claimed (and backed up my claim) that Baxter sent the labs samples of Avian flu instead of seasonal flu. Those labs were the ones who were creating the actual vaccines. They created the vaccines, tested them, realized what happened, and scrapped it.



Your initial statement reads VERY strongly as though these flu shots were distributed publicly.



And even after I countered with my argument, your second statement STILL makes it sound as though these vaccines were distributed to the general public.



They were not. They were caught during the testing phase, which is the entire point of the testing phase. So what is the problem?

Kate CP - posted on 02/28/2012

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"Sorry Krista, I did miss your tetanus post. Tetanus is not contagious. Why its included in our shots is beyond me. Clean wound upkeep is the best course of action."



Puncture wounds are notorious for developing tetanus infections. They are nearly impossible to keep clean because of the lack of blood flow. The best course of action is to be immunized against the bacteria.

Kate CP - posted on 02/28/2012

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"...if a product is using KNOWN carcinogens as a major ingredient in its product..."



There is more mercury in a can of tuna than in a dose of any given vaccine.



There is more formaldehyde in a can of soda than in any given dose of vaccine.



There is more arsenic in an apple than in any given dose of vaccine.



There is more Polysorbate 20 / 80 in your creamer and whipped cream than in any given dose of vaccine.



There is more aluminum in breast milk (YES breast milk) than in any given dose of vaccine.



There is more sulfate and phosphate compounds in your shampoo, soap, laundry detergent, and toothpaste than in any given vaccine.



So. The vaccines aren't what's causing problems. It's the daily poisoning we're doing of our kids in the simple everyday products we use around the house. The vaccines save THOUSANDS of lives every year.



Your shampoo just makes your hair shiny. I'm more willing to give up the crap in my household items than to give up the life saving vaccines. But...maybe that's just me.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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Sorry Krista, I did miss your tetanus post. Tetanus is not contagious. Why its included in our shots is beyond me. Clean wound upkeep is the best course of action.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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I never said it wouldn't be here. Do I think the huge epidemic is due in part to the tainted monkey's?? Absolutely. Do I think it is the ONLY way?? No.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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Krista is a smart cookie, I am sure she figured you would finally see the err in your ways of accusing her of misquoting....pretty sure she wants proof of the scandal...that was fairly obvious.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/28/2012

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If I drive behind a bus I may get cancer too, if I got smoke another cigarette I may get cancer too (which BTW, I am due for one), if I eat this and that I may get cancer too.... yada yada yada



EVERYTHING causes cancer these days! ;)

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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I am re posting my post from a few minutes ago, cause well.....I want an answer. I was wanting you to answer Krista, but now I am gonna throw this one at you to...cause well you claim you can keep up.



Um...@ Kelly "I didn't realize the children were hunting. LOL Why is that an easier thing for you to believe then the already ADMITTED tainted vaccine. It happens ALL the time but is swept under the rug"



""Sooooo....you are going to sit back and say the ONLY way possible for children to get AIDS is from vaccinations." -- I never said that..."



soooooo....what are you saying then if NOT that? Because it seems pretty clear that you feel tainted vaccinations are responsible for cancer, AIDS epidemic, and all the other problems we have.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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Yes, little miss, I then asked, prove what?? the Baxter scandal or the misquote. she never answered me....so I was still waiting.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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That is the same information I read MeMe, indeed they used kidney tissue, but was not tainted with the AIDS virus. That is was a hypothesis that snowballed into what Kelly believes is the truth.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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Yeah, and you never did answer MY question that MeMe brought back up. But I know,....it is indeed hard for you to keep all your unfounded information in order.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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Nope, you were specifically talking about the Avarian Flu being passed through vaccinations at the moment, and Krista told you to prove it since she said it was caught before distribution. You may want to keep up yourself.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/28/2012

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No but it appears you are discrediting it came about in any other way or fashion than vaccines. It appears you feel HIV/AIDS would not be here if it hadn't been for the OPV. Right??



Also, through the literature I read it has not been admitted that the vaccine was tainted. Actually they do say there was monkey tissue but it was NOT from the chimps that carry SIV...

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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Sorry you can't keep up Little Miss. We are on topic. We are discussing ALL the things wrong with vaccinations. Sorry if there is too many to keep straight. Take it up with the pharmaceuticals.

Mother - posted on 02/28/2012

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And my mistake on the misquote. You did in fact quote me correct at the top but used your own words on the bottom. I apologize.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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You are definitely one to believe any negative that is talked about with vaccinations. You apparently cannot clearly understand the benefits of them, nor do you want to. Or maybe you really do, and don't want to admit it. Yeah, that is probably the case.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/28/2012

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Damn stick to a topic could you? You were discussing how the Avian flu was distributed through the flu vaccination. Then you jump back to cancer when that is not what you both were talking about.

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