Are fertility treatments irresponsible.......

Mary - posted on 09/10/2009

Oh, Esther, I wasn't even remotely offended...because you are not wrong!! The emotional toll that infertility treatments can take on a women are astounding...I am not ashamed to say that I damned near lost my mind! I was most certainly clinically depressed during a large chunk of that time, and ant-depressants don't do jack for a situational depression like that. The repeated cycle of hope, anticipation and devestation are almost unbearable...not to mention the isolation (often self imposed) that develops when it seems like everyone around you is pregnant, or has a baby. It was the darkest period of my life, and for a time, I truly lost myself. I did lose that marriage, although, as it turns out, that was a good thing! I also think that we drastically underestimte the impact that all of those hormones have on these women, and just how long those effects linger.



I think that the medical profession fails women horribly by not addressing the psychological components of infertility. Counseling, and support groups should be mandatory for anyone going through IVF. I was lucky to have an amazing group of women that I work with, who truly carried me through that impossible time...despite the fact that it was often hard to keep working in L&D, the nurses and doc's that I work with are an exceptionally supportive and nurturing group of women (and a few token men) who helped me in a way that even the most well-intentioned friends, and family never could. I am beyond lucky, because most people do not have that.



You are right, in that the mere existence of IVF makes it so much harder to let go and move on. For me, there was no clear cut reason why we couldn't conceive. I was 29 when we started trying, and neither of us had any identifiable problems. Good sperm, good (and plentiful) eggs, and we always got great embryos. It made it harder to not try again, since there was no REASON the next cycle wouldn't work (well, except maybe fate!). And quite honestly, I was not the most rational or reasonable person during that time period...not as crazy as your friend, but certainly not myself either. I did hit a point where I was just done, but it was after 5 years of sheer hell. This is going to sound insane, but it was adopting my dog, Charlie, that truly saved me...all of the passion and energy I had poured into IVF got redirected to him, and ultimately, into volunteering at the shelter where I got him. Got rid of the husband, kept the dog, and was finally able to move on and be happy again!



Would it have been easier if infertility treatments weren't an option? I don't know...maybe. I certainly would have come to terms with things sooner, and perhaps spent less time being so miserable...but then again, maybe not. I'm that rare happy ending that no one, especially me, never saw coming. I will ever be glad that I went through all of that, but it did make me the wife, mother, and person I am today, so I can't exactly regret it, either. If nothing else, it gave me the gift of appreciating the wonder of my little family a bit more than I otherwise would have.

Konda - posted on 09/10/2009

I have a friend that has gone through so many treatments and none have taken...now she already has a child th at they said she would never have, she is now 9 and they have been trying for a long long time to have another. Yet, I suppose maybe I agree with whoever said that maybe it is nature's way of saying they shouldn't get pregnant and I mean no disrespect by that at all Mary, I don't mean that anyone shouldn't be able to get pregnant, but perhaps their body knows they cant carry or whatever.

My parents never could get pregnant, of course that was the 60's so they adopted, my brother in 1966 and me in 1970. In 1984 my mother went to the doctor thinking she was changing life at 40 and she was pregnant.....I was a month away from turning 15 when my sister was born. Sadly she died in a wreck in 2003, but she was my Godsend and kept me alive during my rough depression when I wanted nothing more than to die.....I don't know....she came when I needed her and then left.........Ok off topic...sorry.

Esther - posted on 09/10/2009

Mary - I hope you didn't take my posts to mean that I don't sympathize with women who have the desire. My cousin suffered 10 miscarriages before she finally conceived her second child through IVF (the first one happened naturally, against all odds). However, as I mentioned I also had a friend who tried to conceive. She never conceived naturally so ultimately she turned to IVF. The first few times it didn't take at all. Then it finally did and she lost the baby around 8 weeks into her pregnancy. She went through IVF again and got pregnant and lost that baby at around 12 weeks (well after they had heard a heartbeat and for no apparent reason). She was a colleague of mine and after that she got another job so I stayed in touch with her via phone/email/messenger etc. She called me about a year later telling me she had gone through yet another round of IVF and was now 3 months pregnant with twins. Of course I was very happy for her and kept in touch frequently offering to take her to lunch to celebrate, go shopping with her for baby stuff, etc.etc. We kept making plans and she kept breaking them off last minute (or she just wouldn't show and have some excuse later). Anyway, long story short, at around her 6 month mark she told me she miscarried again and lost both babies. I won't go into all the details but I know for sure that the whole pregnancy was a lie. Clearly her mental stability was not where it should be and the desire to be pregnant had just totally consumed her. I was having visions of one of those women you read about in the papers who snatched someone else's child. I have therefore not invited her to ever come meet Lucas. That's why I say that at some point, I wonder if it wouldn't be better for women to receive counseling as to how to come to terms with their infertility rather than keep repeating the cycle of hope & then "failure".

Amanda - posted on 09/10/2009

Mary, thank you for sharing your story. i absolutely understand that unless faced with infertility, we have no idea what it is like.

Mary - posted on 09/10/2009

As someone who went through 3 IUI's and 5 IVF's trying to get pregnant with my first husband (all unsuccessful), I do have some pretty strong views on this. Unless you have lived through the heartache of infertility, you simply cannot understand. Everyone who goes through this is different, of course, but I know that most of us long to be pregnant...to watch our belly swell, to feel those first little flutters of movement, to see their tiny fingers and toes, to hear that most beautiful sound of our baby's heart beating...we don't just want a child...we want the whole thing. It's not so much that we are against adoption ( I would have, my ex refused ), but we are taught at a young age that what separates women form men, and makes us so special, is our ability to grow and nurture a tiny life inside our body. Advances in infertility, and all the 'success' stories out there make it even harder for us to give up that dream, and move on. Sadly, it is only about 30% of women undergoing IVF who are blessed with a viable pregnancy.



Do IVF babies have more issues or problems? Yes, but it's hard to compare them to spontaneously conceived pregnancies, because you have to factor in things like maternal age, mutiples, and maternal health issues such as lupus, diabetes and a myriad of other factors that could have contributed to her infertility, and make her at greater risk for preterm labor and delivery (the biggest reason these kids have issues). I know that with every cycle after my 1st try we transplanted 4 embryos, but I knew my doc personally, and we had talked at length about the fact that I would have a selective reduction if there were any more than 2 that took (I'm an L&D nurse, I knew that my 5'3 petite frame could NEVER carry triplets or greater to a good gestational age). We were an unexplained infertility, so producing eggs was never an issue...in fact, I was a bit of an over-producer...had as many as 28 eggs in one cycle, which yeilded 14 embryos when all was said and done! We did not freeze them...I didn't want to be faced with all of the what-if's and what to do with them down the road. REALLY glad about that, since those years of infertility eroded that marriage; it was one less thing to figure out at the end.



That's just my experience, but I know that I was probably a bit more practical and realistic about things because of my profession. It was also what probably drove me to keep trying...I was always so enthralled with the process of childbirth that I chose, at the age of 15, to become an nurse, with the sole intention of working in L&D. Being pregnant, and having a baby of my own, was a really hard dream to let go of...I doubt I am capable of adequately expressing just how soul-crushing it was.



And yet, I spontaneously conceived at the age of 37, had a completely uncomplicated pregnancy, and an amazingly short and sweet labor, and the perfect delivery. If you have ever wondered if miracles really happen, my Molly is proof that they do!

Esther - posted on 09/10/2009

Quoting Sharon:

I don't think fertility treatments are what causes some women to go off their rocker.

Its the simple fact that they are "failing". Failing at one of the most basic things in life. Something all women are expected to do and have a biological compulsion to reproduce. After throwing tons of money at experts who only collect your bodily specimens and pays very little attention to your mental state, no wonder some go off the deep end.

And my theory on children born through IVF with health issues.... there was a reason why the woman was having issues conceiving or carrying to term. Maybe IVF is the cause or maybe that cause was always there.

Some of the better fertility treatment centers now offer/demand counseling in pairing with the fertility treatments.

Before I got pregnant, I utterly believed I could not have kids. I did not want to be one of those psycho women you see in the news stealing kids or going nuts. I laid out a plan, corrective surgery - I was told I needed - IVF twice if the surgery alone didn't work, then adoption. I always wanted to adopt, I still do. But I wanted my own biological children too.

Sharon - I don't think fertility treatments make women go off their rocker either. That's not what I meant to imply. I simply think it keeps putting off the moment of realization and hopefully acceptance that maybe it just wasn't meant to be. Through these treatments, these women keep experiencing hope & then disappointment and the ever increasing feeling of failure. Not to mention the financial cost of it all which is really quite staggering.

I agree with you on the health issues, but that's why I wonder if IVF is really always a good idea. Maybe nature is trying to tell them that they are not optimal carriers for a baby? I know that's so harsh, but I just wonder sometimes if acceptance & adoption wouldn't have been a better way to go.

Jodi - posted on 09/10/2009

Quoting Kylie:

I think it's irresponsibly to implant more than 2 embryos..i know the treatments are expressive and they want to increase the odds of pregnancy ..but humans are not meant to have and raise a litter.
i think the government should have free vasectomy's, that would help with population control:p
Pity our Australian government wants us to breed...i think it was John Howard who said one for Mum one for Dad and one for the country and then decided to give out baby bonuses as an incentive.

Kylie, that was Peter Costello, and I see their point, but unfortunately, the baby bonus has also been seen as an incentive for some teenage girls because $5000 is a lot of money to them, and they can't see past the payment. 

The point of this was that we have an aging population which will create huge difficulties in future generations.  It will become an economic nightmare. Think about it, it is the population between the ages of 15 and 65 who support the rest of the population through payment of taxes, and any direct support to their children or elderly parents.  Statistics have shown that currently, there are about 5 working people for every person over the age of 65.  However, we are reaching the predicament where our baby boomers are starting to retire.  By 2047, there will only be 2.4 working people for every person aged over 65 if current trends continue. This could potentially be a disaster for our country.  It is also one of the reasons the Rudd government has endorsed a retirement age of 67 instead of 65.

Kylie - posted on 09/10/2009

I think it's irresponsibly to implant more than 2 embryos..i know the treatments are expressive and they want to increase the odds of pregnancy ..but humans are not meant to have and raise a litter.
i think the government should have free vasectomy's, that would help with population control:p
Pity our Australian government wants us to breed...i think it was John Howard who said one for Mum one for Dad and one for the country and then decided to give out baby bonuses as an incentive.

Brenda - posted on 09/10/2009

If I couldn't have a child and I had the option to adopt or try fertility treatments, then I would try fertility treatments first. Most women look forward to being pregnant. They want to experience everything that goes along with carrying and giving birth.
If I couldn't conceive my own children, I would adopt but I would use this as a last resort. It is very expensive unless you want to do foster adoption, but even that is a nightmare emotionally. My did foster adopt for her youngest daughter. It was a VERY intensive process that lasted two years because the biological parents wouldn't sign her over-- mind you, bio Dad was a level 3 child molester but he has "rights" and did everything he could to delay the adoption process. The legal process was a joke to be honest and that poor baby was put through the ringer. I am not sure I could have handled it as well as she did.
That said, I certainly would do everything I could to have my own biological child.

Konda - posted on 09/10/2009

I am going to answer this before I read any replies....

I don't think that limiting children is the answer. There are kids out there waiting to be adopted, but these are all older children that were either given up or taken from an unfit parent. To me, just stopping unfit parents from reproducing is the answer to that....that is a whole other debate. There are very very few babies that need adopting unless they are disabled and not everyone is able to raise a disabled child.

The Duggger's did not use any type of fertility aids, so that is not an issue with them. No matter if I agree with their desire to have all those children and how they raise them or not is not for me to decide since they don't ask for hand-outs. Octo-mom, she is a nut that shouldn't have received fertility treatments at all, so in come cases, yes, there is irresponsibility on that front.

Now I am all for adoption, esp since I am an adopted child and would love to adopt a little girl, but I cant afford to....since adopting a child cost more than my vehicle and closer to the cost of my home.

Jinglebones - posted on 09/10/2009

I don't think it is irresponsible, I think it is natural for people to use what ever means are open to them to fulfill their dreams - and many people dream of having their own biological child. Some might say it is an innate drive or sociological expectation, but I am not so sure of that. I agree with others who think we probably need more research, given this is a relatively new phenomenon. We definitely need ethical standards, perhaps even laws or guidelines. One of the things that has baffled me about the Octomom hoopla is the lack of discussion about the doctors and health professionals who enabled her to give birth to 8 wee ones - to join the other wee siblings. At least with adoption, there is mandated social workers monitoring and vetting the potential parent(s). I have friends who conceived their twins through in vitro - she was implanted with 3 healthy fetuses and only 2 survived. She explained to me that they implant more than 1 because the odds of surviving are not high - I am not sure about this but I believe it was 40% (for 1 healthy fetus and this was 8 years ago so things may have changed...). I know someone else who went through in vitro 5 times with no success. It always takes a wingnut to call attention to the wrench, as they say, so maybe Octomom may have served some useful purpose if she results in changes to the system... I was one of those women who did not conceive right away and we were looking at our options, including in vitro and adoption. I think it is great to be environmentally conscious, but I think applying that to individual dreams of family and home is getting a little over the top. If you feel that strongly about it, I hope that is the path you have chosen and I wish you well on it, but to deny people the most basic of human desires based on your values, tsk tsk tsk. I have a sister that keeps talking about the perils of the world's population and the need for everyone to adopt, still waiting for her to put her money where her mouth is...

Sharon - posted on 09/10/2009

I don't think fertility treatments are what causes some women to go off their rocker.



Its the simple fact that they are "failing". Failing at one of the most basic things in life. Something all women are expected to do and have a biological compulsion to reproduce. After throwing tons of money at experts who only collect your bodily specimens and pays very little attention to your mental state, no wonder some go off the deep end.



And my theory on children born through IVF with health issues.... there was a reason why the woman was having issues conceiving or carrying to term. Maybe IVF is the cause or maybe that cause was always there.



Some of the better fertility treatment centers now offer/demand counseling in pairing with the fertility treatments.



Before I got pregnant, I utterly believed I could not have kids. I did not want to be one of those psycho women you see in the news stealing kids or going nuts. I laid out a plan, corrective surgery - I was told I needed - IVF twice if the surgery alone didn't work, then adoption. I always wanted to adopt, I still do. But I wanted my own biological children too.

Esther - posted on 09/10/2009

Well, if overpopulation is the concern than that wouldn't only apply to women who are unable to conceive. Women who could conceive should then also choose not to and to adopt a child that's already out there. However, I do think infertility treatments pose some difficult issues. One of the most obvious ones of course how many embrios can you responsibly place back? Should it be available to anyone, even those who clearly do not have the means (emotional, financial etc.) to provide for any child(ren) properly (Octomom)? I had a friend (not a close one) who went through IVF several times and it never took. It took a huge toll on her relationship and more than that on her mental stability. At what point would she be better served not going through any more IVF and receiving some counseling to try to come to terms with the fact that she may never be able to get pregnant and should look for other ways to find happiness (adopt or just find some other purpose for her life)? I also wonder if we know enough about any health risks to the baby. I have seen quite a few kids who were conceived through IVF who have ended up having health issues (autism, heart problems, still not speaking at age 4 etc.). I don't know that it's related, but there seems to be a higher occurence (just from my anecdotal experiences) than among children born the regular way. I just wonder if we really know everything we need to know yet.

Jocelyn - posted on 09/10/2009

no. i totally understand a woman's urge to have her OWN children. that being said, it is up to the mother to be responsible for how many she has (as it is up to any mother to be responsible). it would be irresponsible to have 10 kids no matter how they are conceived. it i were unable to have kids, or dh wanted lots of kids, then i wouldn't hesitate to look at adoption. i always wanted to adopt, but thankfully we are quite a fertile couple (ahem, found that out the hard way...or should it be the easy way lol. my expression of his sperm: "what's this? you dare to put a little piece of rubber in our way? well we'll show you!")
i still want to adopt, and hopefully sometime down the line we might be able to afford it.
i do agree with Sara that there should be a limit on how many embryos are implanted; nobody needs to risk having 12 babies all at once...

Amanda - posted on 09/10/2009

Sara, that's how i feel as well. it's in our nature to want biological children and to procreate, and i also can't say for sure what my next step would have been if i could not conceive it really is such a personal issue for so many women out there. up until recently i have never given thought to overpopulation (well, at least to the extent of thinking about number of children i will have). i would still like to adopt one day, but like you the cost of the adoption becomes an issue. i also agree that the number of embryos created during the treatment of infertility is sometimes very irresponsible on the Dr's part.

my other thoughts on the issue have to do with certain religions. it is against some religions to use forms of birth control (and while many opt for natural family planning, it's not 100% effective- not that other forms of birth control are either...) so how do we justify limiting number of biological children to them? but that's a debate in it of itself!

Sharon - posted on 09/10/2009

Nah. Fertility treatments are the answer to some womens' private hell of not being able to conceive.



Its the personal responsibility issue. Giving birth to a litter of brain damaged babies while on welfare is fucking nuts. She ought to be forcibly sterilized - just for being that stupid.



Adoption doesn't work out for everyone for a variety of reason. Residency, time involved, etc.



Nah - personal responsibility. Everyone needs some.

Sara - posted on 09/10/2009

That's a tough one, Amanda. On one hand, I can understand people's drive to want their own bilogical offspring. I would like to think that if I were not able to have children, I would adopt, but how can I really say if i've never been in that situation? I know when I was ready to have a baby, I REALLY wanted to get pregnant, and I didn't think about overpopulation or how my decisions were impacting the earth, i just wanted a baby. It makes sense intellectually to adopt in lue of infertility treatments, but emotionally I think it's probably much more difficult to give up on having a baby of your own and adopt. I myself am not against adoption, but the cost of it is prohibitive to my family.



But, if you are talking about the number of embryos created during the infertility treatment process, then yes, I do think that is irresponsible. I think it's a good rule to only make the number of embryos you plan on implanting and also to only implant a couple at a time.