'Autism spectrum' may explain diagnosis surge

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/30/2012 ( 107 moms have responded )

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During the briefing for reporters Thursday on the CDC’s latest findings that one in 88 children in the U.S. (one in 54 boys) has a diagnosis of some brain disorder that falls on the “autism spectrum,” there was a polite but revealing dust up. Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, conceded –in response to a question– that the increase in cases could be the result in changes in the way such disorders are diagnosed. Then Mark Roithmayr, president of Autism Speaks, the biggest activist organization concerned with the disorder, said he begged to differ. Maybe half the cases, Roithmayr insisted, must be due to some as yet identified environmental factors.



Last January Dr. Fred Volkmar, director of the Yale Child Study Center, created a far bigger controversy when the New York Times reported he had said new definitions of autism about to come from The American Psychiatric Association could effectively end the autism surge. ''We would nip it in the bud,'' the Times quoted Dr. Volkmar.



Volkmar was not available today, but I interviewed his colleague Dr. James McPartland, who did not back down from that view.



“People who might have been diagnosed with something else in the past are now being diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder," McPartland said. By “something else,” McPartland means problems that used to be labeled as ranging from “mental retardation” to “learning disabilities.”



“The way we diagnose autism spectrum disorder has changed,” McPartland continued. “We're more inclusive. We include people with more cognitive ability and less severe problems then we have in the past.”



Anyone who spends time around children diagnosed on the “autistic spectrum” knows that it is indeed wide. Many have the severe withdrawal and lack of ability to engage in social interactions that characterize classical autism. But others seem high functioning and verbal.



Scientists have spent a lot of time looking for genetic changes that might account for disorders labeled as autism. More than 500 genes have so far been implicated indicating that no clear genetic cause will be implicated.



As for environmental factors, there are strong suggestions that older parents, especially fathers can increase the risk as can multiple births. But none of that could account for more than a fraction of the enormous increase (78 per cent since 2002 when the CDC started tracing autism.) The alleged association with childhood vaccinations has been widely discredited by scientists although a few hard core activists still cling to it.



So that takes us back to diagnosis. Whatever it is called, there can be no doubt that a lot of kids need special attention – and the sooner they get it, the better off they are. What a problem is called matters less than how society copes with it.



http://vitals.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/0...



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46892046/ns/...



I agree that it is not necessarily a genetic cause but can be. I do agree, as well, it more often comes from the father. My daughter's bio is 11 years older than me. He was 33 when I conceived my daughter, I was 22. He had a history of "bad choices" which included but, were not limited to, administration of hard drugs. I know this is where my daughter got ADHD from, he has it most definitely. Now I am not saying this to be true for ALL children with a cognitive impairment. For some though, such as mine, yes.



It seems to me they are no closer to figuring out the answers but do realize why it has become so popular. Where in the past there were multiple labels from mental retardation to brain damaged (what ADHD used to be called), there was no main "umbrella" to place them under.



Now, they have developed much more sensible labels and placed many under the Autism Spectrum. Where each of these disorders are cognitive related and often have very similar and, at times, overlapping behaviour and cognitive issues associated with them.



It appears that the definition of Autism has been broadened, to include much more, thus increasing those diagnosed. Where in the past, you had to have very strong and apparent behavioural and developmental issues, now they can be anywhere from mild to severe.



I agree that this explanation, does give insight to why more and more children are suddenly being diagnosed with ADHD/ADD/OCD/Asperger's and the alike.



What are your thoughts? Do you think they are on to something, of why it has become such an increased phenomenon? Or do you believe it has to do with something else?

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[deleted account]

No Hep shots given in the UK after birth, it's not even in our regular vaccine schedule. My son is high functioning on the autistic spectrum. He was never a "normal" baby, toddler, child.



As for vaccines... In a handful of children, with a genetic predisposition, I do believe that they can be the environmental trigger. Those children would probably develop some autistic tendencies regardless but in some cases it does appear to cause sudden regression. I'm not willing to dismiss the fears of the parents who have had this happen and it does happen. Rare exceptions, not the norm. I can understand if it happens to one child, they would look to avoid or delay to other children.



I'm still not willing to go as far to say they "cause" autism. Allergies are rare. Just because the kid down the street is allergic to peanuts, doesn't mean that you avoid giving your own child peanut butter. For the most part vaccines save lives and do more good than they do harm.

[deleted account]

I suggest starting a debate on vaccine reactions.



As a mother of a child on the autistic spectrum I do find it rather annoying that these debates always come back to vaccine "damaged". My son is most certainly is not damaged.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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"Ah, just like there is no evidence vaccines cause autism."



----there is also no evidence that vaccines don't cause autism.

Mrs. - posted on 04/01/2012

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I personally think Jenny McCarthy is a perfect example of how dangerous someone can be when they think they are way more insightful than they are and are given a forum to broadcast their misinformation.



She also seems to have a bit of the Elvis disease. What I mean by that is that she seems to surround herself with people who tell her shit doesn't stink and she looks good in that sparkly jumpsuit with the high collar.



Dangerous combo...

Tracey - posted on 04/01/2012

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Mother - I'm not sure what earth hour is but can I come to the roasted marshmallows and hot chocolate fire?



I'm going to get shot for suggesting this but I believe some, NOT ALL, of the increase in rates of many conditions is due to the increased funding to schools and parents of disabled / special needs children and as an excuse for schools not to meet their standards in literacy and numeracy.



My son's school at one point claimed 70% pupils had special needs to explain their position as one of the worst performing school in the area.



In UK you can get up to $750 disability allowance + $350 carer's allowance + $300 tax credits per month per disabled child and I do know families who aggressively pursue a diagnosis for these financial reasons.



I believe the increase in rates is a combination of vaccine damage (because nothing is 100% safe), environmental factors, genetics, changing diagnostic criteria or a combination of many things. I don't think we know what causes it at the moment and until the pharmaceutical / medical research companies are more concerned with finding a cause than covering their considerably large financial backsides I don't think we will.

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Susan - posted on 03/14/2014

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I just found out my 8 year has autism spectrum disorder. I took him to a doc in Greenville, and waiting for his school to do their testing . What is the next step I take? I'm a little intimated and confused on what to do next. Someone please give some advice. Thanks sue

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/03/2012

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We just spent ten years of very expensive research hunting for autism genes, only to discover that autism genetics is much more complex than we thought. We’re investing all this money in trying to make autistic people go away, instead of helping the millions of autistic people who are already here lead happier, safer, and more productive lives. That’s a shameful squandering of human resources.



Above copied from the link Rebecca 3, provided.



I LOVE this analogy! So true. Yes, why are we expending so much effort into something we will probably never truly recognize a cause. It makes sooo much more sense to put the planning, research and money into helping provide a much more quality of life for each and everyone that is disabled with Autism or within the Spectrum.

[deleted account]

*****Mod Notice*****



I think we have several different routes we can continue from this topic. I'm locking the thread so please feel free to start separate threads for each.



Cathy S.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/03/2012

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When a thread gets derailed by a topic (especially which was NOT in the op), and causes personal attacks, flaming, and insults, it is the admins and mods jobs to deal with it. Could you now stop bickering about this or indeed it will be closed? you are more than welcome to open a new thread just about vaccinations, yet you continue to sit here and argue with me which in turn will get this thread closed for bickering. I am not discussing this further with you. Have a nice day.

Mrs. - posted on 04/03/2012

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http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/0...



Cathy, this is an awesome article I just read about new research on the autistic mind, that it is not damaged, but just different.



I especially loved the part where they describe adult autism retreats and how they are generally a whole different cultural environment.

Joy - posted on 04/03/2012

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My comment wasn't rude. How was it rude? I simply quoted the question the OP posted.



Seriously, I think you're taking your MOD position a little too seriously. We're all grown adults here discussing a topic that has many branches. Demanding an entire topic to a thread be ignored because YOU don't like it seems ridiculous to me.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/03/2012

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Vaccinations have taken over this thread and become a volital issue here. Autism spectrum can be discussed without it, and the specific vaccination debate was a broader spectrum than specifically autism in here.



Love "with all due respect" cause usually it is followed by a rude comment. So Joy, if you would like to continue your debate about vaccinations, start a new thread like I have suggested. This thread has been derailed quite enough with the debate about vaccinations, which was NOT the specific case of this OP. So once again, move on.

Joy - posted on 04/03/2012

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With all due respect Little Miss, one of the questions asked by the OP with respect to the increase in Autism was "Do you think they are on to something, of why it has become such an increased phenomenon? Or do you believe it has to do with something else?"



Many people believe it is something else and that something else is vaccines. It's hard to talk about autism and not talk about vaccines when there are such doubts about the injections.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/03/2012

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******LAST WARNING******



I am being gracious by giving another. This thread is about autism spectrum, NOT about vaccinations. Continue on the topic, or move on. You can create another thread about vaccinations, but get this one back on track, or I am closing it down from further comments.



~DM MOD Little Miss~

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/03/2012

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I understand that part of it, I really do. However, what about the trust of the vaccines diminishing and/or minimizing disease? Again, it is a risk that must be evaluated, just like everything else we do in life.



Also, think about the fact that many parents must use a Daycare service daily in order to work. I know here in Halifax, NS Canada, you MUST show proof from a doctor that your child is up to date with all vaccines. Not everyone trusts an in-home daycare, I don't. Even some of the in-home Daycare's, in Halifax, NS Canada, require proof.



Again, the occurrence of a severe reaction is rare. The possibility of some disease coming back is real and there are other sickness, such as rotavirus, mumps, chicken pox, measles and pertussis that are still very rampant within 1st world Countries. These disease can cause death, especially pertussis and rotavirus. For me the pros of vaccines far out weigh the cons, of my child possibly having a severe reaction, one that would affect them for life. A simple reaction, that may affect them for short term, I am not concerned with. It is the rare reaction that would concern me but, where it is so rare I am not going to veer toward not immunizing.



There has been no scientific data proving that autism is linked to vaccines alone. It has not been proven that those children that do develop symptoms a few months after a vaccine would not have developed them anyway.



As I have said, I know individuals that have not been vaccinated and they suffer from neurological disorders. It is apparent to me, that vaccines are not the sole cause, or even the cause. They may increase the trigger but I believe these children would have ended with symptoms at some point anyhow. Until Science proves me wrong, I will hold to that. ;)

Joy - posted on 04/03/2012

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The problem here is TRUST. Parents don't trust the pharmaceuticals anymore because they haven't been forthcoming from the get go. In the beginning they flat out lied about the ingredients. They lied about the growing mediums. They lied about the testing. They have made it so they can't be sued, so they have complete immunity from prosecution.



The placebos that were used are highly questionable. And children continue to be injured or worse. Not to mention, the people pushing the vaccines are the same people who are testing the product. Can anyone say CONFLICT? And some of these same people hold shares in the patent. Hence why Paul Offit was called Paul Profit for so long.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/02/2012

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*********MOD WARNING*********



Please ladies refrain from the bickering and personal attacks. If we do not get back on topic, and stop with the violation of THUMPS this thread will be locked. I have already had to delete posts. Get this thread back on track, or walk away. Simple.



DM MoD ~Little Miss~

Mrs. - posted on 04/02/2012

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"The difference RT is, no one else can verify what they believe. Professionals can verify my family's experience."





Did I not say that many professional scientists have seen the result of prayer on illness? It is all how you interpret it.



You may believe the reaction your daughter (and again you are not being specific about that reaction and I don't need you to be, but forgive me if I can't speak to it directly) had means that there was proof that it caused a type of autism in your daughter...however, to your doctor and others it may just be a reaction to the vaccine that was temporary and whatever came after was not connected to autism.



Again, not arguing your daughter didn't have a reaction...most likely she did.



Professional is also an umbrella term. A theologian is a professional. Christians also have their own science texts and theories. Now, you can argue about how valid those professionals are, but who is to say either way that one is better than the other and can't be called a professional.



Besides like I said, I'm not arguing that your all over opinions are like Christians's opinions. I'm just saying your one argument was very much like many Christian arguments about faith.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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Ma B, As we all know I don't agree with many things you have an opinion on and vice versa. However, that does not mean I think ill of you.



Honestly, I think you are one tough lady. Like me, you have been through a lot and experienced a lot in your life, even more, since you are older than I. ;) I am not going to negate your feelings on your experiences. I just feel that for those of us that have experienced the same topics in a different manner, should not be told we are hurting our children.



I don''t care if you choose to not vaccinate, that is your choice. My problem is that you are not willing to agree that they have had and still do have a hand in diminishing and/or minimizing disease.



I honestly feel that you think those that vaccinate are potentially causing more harm to their child than helping them. I just am not sure how you can feel this, when if no one vaccinated, disease would still be very prevalant and would be killing and causing great harm on our children. It isn't a huge deal if a few here and there decide not to but imagine if we all did as you. I really don't think it would be a very good outcome.



I will continue to vaccinate until there is an established scientific link to serious disability, such as autism.



You haven't directly said we should not vaccinate. You have however, made comments in regards to why would we approve administering such vile chemicals into our children. That is saying the exact same thing as to not vaccinate. That it causes autism and other disorders.



However, no one here has said you should vaccinate. Actually, all I am ever trying to get across is why I do vaccinate and why so many other's do as well. You don't only speak of why you forgo them but why everyone should re-think and look at what is in them before being so sure they are a good choice.



Otherwise, there would not be a debate on this right now. If it was just about you and your choice for you only. No one would be disputing that. ;)

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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Well Ladies....I am heading to bed. It was an exhausting day and I'm gonna sleep like a baby tonight!!!! Nighty-night..

[deleted account]

And Mother Bacher -- you are advocating a specific position -- vaccines CAUSE autism, yet you keep obliquely referring to your child as having a "vaccine reaction". A "vaccine reaction" could mean anything. It could mean hives. It could mean swelling at the injection site. It doesn't necessarily mean "autism". My question was simple and to the point: DOES YOUR CHILD HAVE AUTISM and do you BELIEVE it was caused by the vaccine? It's a simple yes or no. Either she does or she doesn't. If she does, I could understand why you would feel the way you do (even though I don't agree with it). However, if she doesn't, then I don't understand why you are so convinced vaccines cause autism. My question isn't a personal attack or an attempt to belittle you, it is a response to you being vague.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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MeMe............was that a compliment?? *faints* LOLOLOLOL



In my defense, I've never told anyone to not vaccinate. I won't vaccinate but I don't like someone telling me TO vaccinate, so I would never tell another NOT to vaccinate.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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Joy---

I'm sorry if I don't spend all day every day in these forums, like some people we know MeMe, but I actually work when I'm at my job and have quite a busy family life. So, I pop in when I can. I don't expect someone who LIVES on these boards to understand that. ;)



I am just very lucky that my job IS on a computer. It is very easy to work (not easy work but have been doing it for years now) and have an extra browser open at the same time. It's awesome actually, I bring home big bucks AND get to play all at the same time. Love it! ;)



However, it does not mean that someone should come in and shoot shit around. I honestly think and know, Ma B is very capable of standing on her own two feet. She's a tough lady.



I've not seen Mother or anyone else tell another parent they shouldn't vaccinate. I have seen others defend their right to choose and nothing more.



Really? I think you need to do some more follow up on everything that has been said. I think saying "why would we inject our kids with all this crap when the package says right on them they can cause terrible reactions?" Yes, I am paraphrasing....more words than that but, you can go look for the exact statements. There have been several, stated in that very type of context.

Joy - posted on 04/02/2012

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"This is a debate. Whether you like it or not, we all have opinions and it is up to the opposing side to rebutal or not. If there is a rebutal than YOU ARE ENTERTAINING the debate and YOU ARE looking for validation to some degree."





MeMe, if Rebecca was debating, I wouldn't have a problem. When someone tells another member they are illogical when they have experienced such a tragedy, THAT is just cruel. Don't minimize their personal experience and then further insult them by calling their experience baggage. ESPECIALLY when it has to do with someone children being injured, don't be so heartless.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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"MB- Many Christians believe that they have spoken to God, have seen how God/Jesus have first hand performed miracles because they prayed to them asking for it and so many other things. "



The difference RT is, no one else can verify what they believe. Professionals can verify my family's experience.

Joy - posted on 04/02/2012

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" I cannot agree that she knows the answer by advocating to not vaccinate."



I've not seen Mother or anyone else tell another parent they shouldn't vaccinate. I have seen others defend their right to choose and nothing more.



"Only, she is more fun to debate with, than someone that just throws shit in every once in a while, Joy"



I'm sorry if I don't spend all day every day in these forums, like some people we know MeMe, but I actually work when I'm at my job and have quite a busy family life. So, I pop in when I can. I don't expect someone who LIVES on these boards to understand that. ;)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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Joy--

Like anyone cares if you accept her opinion on this topic or any other topic. I wouldn't entertain you either after the remarks you made. Like your dismissing her opinion was suppose to make a difference. LOL



I must also ask then why the hell does anyone post here? If you do not want your opinion heard or validated in some way, then why are you here? Just to stir shit?



This is a debate. Whether you like it or not, we all have opinions and it is up to the opposing side to rebutal or not. If there is a rebutal than YOU ARE ENTERTAINING the debate and YOU ARE looking for validation to some degree.



I think many of us are just saying that if you are going to be stubborn and think only what you want and are not willing to at least entertain the other side, even a little (in some intelligent way), then there is no need to remain debating. Makes sense to me.

Mrs. - posted on 04/02/2012

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MB- Many Christians believe that they have spoken to God, have seen how God/Jesus have first hand performed miracles because they prayed to them asking for it and so many other things. There is scientific research about the effects of prayer/meditation on illness. A Christian could say that is proof that God heals. You might say that is the power of the mind/body connection.



Besides, I never doubted that your child or any child had a reaction. All I ever said was that the assertion you made about never changing your mind even if concrete proof came forward from a reliable source in the future because you believe it to be true based on personal experience is similar to the arguments many Christians make about having faith in God.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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Joy---

Like anyone cares if you accept her opinion on this topic or any other topic. I wouldn't entertain you either after the remarks you made. Like your dismissing her opinion was suppose to make a difference. LOL



Ummm, isn't that EXATLY what Ma B has been doing??? Yes, I surely think so. Only, she is more fun to debate with, than someone that just throws shit in every once in a while, Joy.



At least Ma B has a valuable fight (she has also done her homework for her side of things), even if we do not agree with her beliefs. I know she is not just blowing smoke out her ass. She really has experienced something. It is what has scared her. I get that. I really do. I wish for her (and her daughter), it hadn't happened.



However, it is one thing to believe something and refuse to listen to the other side, then to be open to see that it is really a rare occurence and she ended up with the shitty end of the stick (so to speak). I am not trying to lighten the fact that she truly went through hard times with her experience but I cannot agree that she knows the answer by advocating to not vaccinate. What she experienced is terrible but it is not the norm. Many, many children are vaccinated without reaction. Vaccines save lives, I cannot grasp how anyone can refute that. This is where my issue with Ma B's approach is. To completely dismiss something because of an experience or a few other's as opposed to all those that have not had any ill experience.



I know I have already said it but, if we all stopped vaccintating our people would be in soo much trouble. It isn't even funny. I just don't understand how anyone can dispute that.



I was reading earlier. They are currently developing vaccines via patch. Ma B. This would not be penetrating the skin, it would need to go through the skin. How would you feel about those vaccines? The same or different? I know it may be a hard question but I am just wondering, if they changed how they are administered would you be able to recheck your opinion or at least allow other's to feel that vaccines are good in the most part? Since right now, you just think they are shit and no one should use them. Just curious, if there were advancements, if you would be willing to learn about them or not?

Joy - posted on 04/02/2012

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The problem here is TRUST. Parents don't trust the pharmaceuticals anymore because they haven't been forthcoming from the get go. In the beginning they flat out lied about the ingredients. They lied about the growing mediums. They lied about the testing. They have made it so they can't be sued, so they have complete immunity from prosecution.



The placebos that were used are highly questionable. And children continue to be injured or worse. Not to mention, the people pushing the vaccines are the same people who are testing the product. Can anyone say CONFLICT? And some of these same people hold shares in the patent. Hence why Paul Offit was called Paul Profit for so long.

Joy - posted on 04/02/2012

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"Joy, where did I say anything about my "approval"? "



Well Rebecca, I think this statement says it all.



"Then you will understand why I will complete and entirely disregard any opinion you have on the matter."



Like anyone cares if you accept her opinion on this topic or any other topic. I wouldn't entertain you either after the remarks you made. Like your dismissing her opinion was suppose to make a difference. LOL

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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Rebecca three, christians don't have any proof that even GOD exists. You can't see it...test it....verify anything. My child reacted to a vaccine. That is documented, not by me, by a doctor. It can be verified by a professional. You can't compare my belief with that of a Christian.....theirs can't be confirmed.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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Rebecca Three, if I misunderstood what you were trying to say then I apologize. On the coat tails of your comment came Jen's and I think I reacted to the combo of the comments. I honestly can't answer your question. It would have to be some pretty concrete proof and it would have to come from a third party reliable source. And who knows what will take place between now and your hypothetical situation??

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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I will say though that I am not in the mind of vaccines not having a possible hand it autism. It is possible. Actually, I think it is definitely a contributing factor for some children, along with a handful of other chemical's that have gone through their body. I also however, feel they are born with it and these environmental or chemical administrations increase the intensity.



I just am not going to say that I would advocate not vaccinating just because of a few thousand people that claim their child got anything from "only" vaccines. As you are willing to say. As, it is a belief not a fact, for the most part.



However, I am very interested and willing to learn anything new that comes our way, in regards to vaccines. Meaning, if science ever does undoubtedly prove a link between vaccines and autism, I will then believe it. Until then though, it is only an assumption, which is just not enough to make me stop vaccinating. I understand there is a small risk but I am willing to take it, in order to mitigate a larger risk of disease.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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It has just been very highly discredited by so many scientists it isn't even funny.... but you know that. ;)

Mrs. - posted on 04/02/2012

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Okay, I think there has been a misunderstanding. I was not debating your opinion on vaccines, I was debating your assertion that no matter what would ever happen in the future, as far as research or proof about the vaccine link, you would not believe it to not be true....I was not saying that you were presently misinformed or have not researched the subject, I was just debating that that one declaration.



Take a read:



MB:"I NEVER said vaccines were the sole cause of autism but they have a hand in it. no one will convince me otherwise. "



RT:Really? Even if every scientist, docs and alternative medicine docs, in the future, all were to agree that it wasn't, you wouldn't be convinced?





MB:Nope....not even then will I be convinced. When you have seen something with your own eyes....when you have lived the experience....no one will be able to say it didn't happen. Sorry if that is frustrating for you....



So after I asked you if in the future new info came to light about it from both sides of the debate that said otherwise...I made the argument that your declaration of "not even then" being convinced being not unlike when you ask Christians about God:



RT:That's cool, but you realize that is the same argument Christians make for a slew of things...basically — "I know it to be true because I believe". It is not because of proof or research, but bottom line, it is because in your heart you have faith in an idea regardless of all the evidence that says otherwise.



I did not say that you didn't have research or experience in the matter. This quote, "It is not because of proof or research, but bottom line, it is because in your heart you have faith in an idea regardless of all the evidence that says otherwise.", is actually referring to the future information that you say, no matter how reliable the source is, you would never believe.



You then responded by calling me "fucking" ignorant:



MB:thanks for the christian analogy Rebecca but this isn't something I just believe because I believe it or have faith in something. I LIVED it. Just like the parents who watched their child react to the vaccines while everyone stood around whispering OOPS. But thanks for your fucking ignorance.



I asked you to clarify about what seemed like an assertion based on faith more than some future information put forth by a source you would think was reliable and you answered by saying that it wouldn't matter because, "you have lived the experience". How is this any different than asking a Christian (as often happens in religious debates) that is the Vatican/religious group they believe in came out and said the creation of the world had nothing to do with God, would that person still believe that God created the world and then that Christian answering, "No, I would still believe it because I lived it." Sorry, but it is the same argument and there is nothing wrong with that, as I said before. People believe in things because they believe it to be true despite any future evidence to the contrary that might come their way. I was just asking you to confirm that you are making one of those assertions.



I don't think I was ignorant, or "fucking ignorant" by drawing a comparison between the two. I think it was an apt, fair comparison. Again, though, you are entitled to your opinion on that too.



I'm sure you are well researched on the subject and in fact, a lot more involved than I have ever been with it. However, that doesn't mean that your basic reasoning about one assertion isn't flawed, even if you know a lot about it. I just don't know how solid of a fact driven argument you can make, if nothing, even what the most respected sources have to say about any subject in the future can affect how you think about something. You don't have to be an expert on the subject to know that.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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Excuse me Rebecca, you called me illogical. You have your mind made up already and I'm not about to put my personal experience out there for you to mock and belittle. It's well known on these forums that my child reacted to a vaccine, the specifics aren't important. My opinion was not formed solely on my experience but the tens of thousands of parents who found themselves in the same boat as myself. And for the record, my daughter is not BAGGAGE, thank you very much and I am not whining. I stated a simple FACT. That I had a child react to a vaccine. PERIOD. All the studies in the world won't change my mind on the dangers that vaccines pose.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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LOL - everything you just said is what I read in the one article. Doesn't seem like there is much more to know. ;)



Everything you just said I said, just not in so many words. So WTF are you talking about?



Anyhow, that just goes to show that you are wiling to accept scientific studies in one instance, even when the final answer is still not an absolute but you are not willing in another. Rather you prefer to make sweeping analogies, saying that everyone should stay clear of vaccines because you BELIEVE they are the underlying main contributor to autism. I don't see how that works.



How can you believe that these sheep are so clear of everything because of frequent live tests that have been completed (yet there is still a brain test to be conducted) but you cannot believe that vaccines only cause reaction in rare instances?



I don't think you know as much as you think you know. I think you like to dictate what is good and what is bad according to your feelings, not actual facts. You know, that little life bubble you like to refer to my experiences about? Yeah, that one but in reference to you and your bubble.



Thanks for sharing though, what I had already read. :/



ETA:

Shropshire sheep are known for their high-quality wool and meat, but animals with a particular set of genes are more susceptible to scrapie than other sheep and goats. It's those animals on Jones's farm that the CFIA is targeting.



Scrapie is part of a class of ailments called spongiform encephalopathies and is similar to mad cow disease. There is no evidence it affects humans.




Ah, just like there is no evidence vaccines cause autism. Odd, eh'? You however, still trust the non-evidence behind the sheep, rather than that of vaccines that keeps the human race alive.

**rolls eyes**

Janice - posted on 04/02/2012

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Meme -"I know people that have died in car accidents. I still drive.... "



Yes, but everyone is affected by events differently.

[deleted account]

Joy, where did I say anything about my "approval"? I'm not a candidate endorsing a message. However, Mother Bacher has flat out stated that medical and scientific evidence doesn't matter because only her personal experience matters, yet when asked a simple question about that experience refuses to answer. Give me a break. Don't bring your personal baggage into a debate forum and then whine about being asked about it. Either her child has autism or they don't. Either she believes it was caused by a vaccine or she doesn't. Two simple questions that she apparently won't answer (because I'm guessing they don't really support her dogmatic views). I'm not asking for her life story nor do I care for it.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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"Really?? Oh, well I guess again, you believe what you want, regardless of the info that is available to everyone. While they are not sure where the sheep got the disease, it is possible (just as vaccines are possible to cause reaction) that it got it from HER farm. ;) "



--Yes MeMe.....five years ago this sheep allegedly was from her farm even tho the tissues submitted for testing raised concerns surrounding possible misidentification. Only 4 sheep that LIVE on her farm were even on the premises when the sheep in question was there. CFIA’s investigation team admittedly has no definitive answers as to the original source of the Alberta farm infection. None of HER flock has ever been infected. They have all been tested and have been quarantined for 3 years. None of the animals on her farm have tested positive to scrapie. The sheep in question did not show signs of scrapie until 3 years after sale and would have shown the signs long before if it had been infected at the time of purchase. Yes the live test is only 85% accurate but has been run over and over on the same flock since quarantined......resulting in NO POSITIVE result.



"The CFIA says the only way to know for sure if there is scrapie among the 41 sheep is to kill them and examine their brains. "



---It is also well known that the brain is the LAST place the disease effects so this test although may be more accurate....is not as effective because it might not have made it to the brain. However fecal testing shows a positive in the early stages of the disease and on wards throughout the disease..



You really shouldn't try to talk about something you know nothing about.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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Selick says the CFIA has told them the live biopsy tests are only 85 per cent accurate. The CFIA says the only way to know for sure if there is scrapie among the 41 sheep is to kill them and examine their brains.



A single sheep, with tattoo number WHE 24S, born on Jones’ farm and sold to an Alberta farm in 2007 was discovered to have scrapie about three years later..




Ma B---

Actually.....once again, people are opening their mouths without having the facts on the situation at hand. NONE of this farmers sheep has or has had scrapie. And none of her sheep have been sold to a food market.



Really?? Oh, well I guess again, you believe what you want, regardless of the info that is available to everyone. While they are not sure where the sheep got the disease, it is possible (just as vaccines are possible to cause reaction) that it got it from HER farm. ;)



I say prove it didn't. Just like I say prove autism comes from vaccines.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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Janice---

Just like if you knew someone who died in a plane crash, you may be real hesitant to get on a plane even though it is very unlikely the plane will crash.



I know people that have died in car accidents. I still drive....



Again, vaccines have many more pros than cons. There is a risk to absolutely everything a person does. We may as well all live in a little bubble and stop eating, drinking (pop, juice, milk), breathing, walking, driving, flying, taking any type of medication (including acetaminophen and ibuprofen), brushing our teeth with toothpaste (fluoride swalled can be harmful), etc...there are sooo many things that can hurt us it isn't funny.



Vaccines do have a rare, slim chance of causing a severe reaction BUT in most cases they do not. I understand if someone has gone through something, they may choose to forgo that again. However, it does not mean it will happen to everyone. Advocating that it is a "bad" choice is rather ignorant. Vaccines HAVE saved millions of lives. I hope those that do not vaccinate ever see, first hand, what happens when a person gets one of these diseases.



There should be some appreciation that vaccines exist and that they help keep people alive. We that vaccinate ARE responsible for keeping all those that don't, healthy. If we all stopped, disease would come back, there is just no question.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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I have never ever had to sign anything to have my children vaccinated. Never. However, we also do not pay for them.

Janice - posted on 04/02/2012

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I vaccinate my children, and every time they need a shot, I cringe. Not because they will be in pain for a moment, but because I have to sign a paper that I understand that there is a teeny tiny chance that my child may have a severe reaction. Is it likely? No, but it is possible. Sometimes that reaction is very high fever. A very high fever can cause brain damage. How can anyone say that this brain damage could not present itself in the form of autism?

Knowing what I know, I believe that if I ended up knowing a child who had a severe reaction to a vaccine than a may stop wanting to have them done. Just like if you knew someone who died in a plane crash, you may be real hesitant to get on a plane even though it is very unlikely the plane will crash.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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OH!!!!!!!! They aren't my sheep. I was just there for support. I am of the mind that if you support your fellow comrades they will one day return the favour!!!

Joy - posted on 04/02/2012

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On a side note. Mother, I giggled my arse off when I read your shropshire sheep had been sheep-napped. Perfect!

Joy - posted on 04/02/2012

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Wow Rebecca, you must think quite highly of yourself to think your approval would mean squat to anyone. So I suppose you disregard every family that has a vaccine reactive child? I wouldn't give you personal details of the worst day of my life either. People like you make my blood boil. Have some god damned compassion.

[deleted account]

Then you will understand why I will complete and entirely disregard any opinion you have on the matter.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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"ETA:

I am glad you enjoyed your rally. No, I don't care for sheep that have had scrapie in the past, from the very farm. Of which was sold to our food market."



---There is nothing to ENJOY about a protest/rally. It is absolutely pitiful that this is what people are forced to do in order to get justice. Actually.....once again, people are opening their mouths without having the facts on the situation at hand. NONE of this farmers sheep has or has had scrapie. And none of her sheep have been sold to a food market. This flock is trying to maintain the rarest and almost extinct blood line. Twenty of the ewes in question are ready to lamb......certainly not to be sold for food.



Scrapie is a disease that affects productivity and longevity. So basically....it makes the ewes infertile. Obviously if most of the flock is pregnant then this is not a problem here. However....in an interesting turn of events. We arrived at the protest this morning to find that in the night....they had been sheep-napped. All 41 sheep were missing!!! I guess they decided to flock off!!!! :) A friendly note was left by "The Farmers Peace Corps"



Clever Wranglers!!!!

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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Ya know Rebecca, normally I'm very forthcoming with my story. It's been told many times on here but judging by your attitude and your comments, I'm not interested in sharing anything with you. You've already made up your mind and that's fine. I'm just not interested in posting a very personal....very scary...very life changing experience for you to scrutinize and pick apart. Thanks but no thanks.

[deleted account]

Mother Bacher -- could you give a little detail about what you mean by a "vaccine reactive child"? Is your child actually autistic? And are you blaming it on vaccines? And which ones specifically? I'm hearing a whole lot of fury and very little logic. There is a huge range of reactions someone can have to a vaccine (well, to anything actually). Few involve any neurological impact.



I get that you had a bad experience with your child re: a vaccine. However, I still don't understand your reaction. As I mentioned, I had an adverse reaction to the DTaP vaccine -- it had no long lasting impacts. In fact, it had no impacts even an hour later. However, I'm not irrationally running around saying "vaccines are evil" because I had a bad experience.

Mother - posted on 04/02/2012

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"You simply give all the negativity to vaccines, otherwise you wouldn't eat or breath. Since it is more than likely many factors together, including the foods we eat and crap in the air we breath, not just one."



I have never said vaccines are the sole cause of these issues.....ever. sorry if you misinterpret what you read.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/02/2012

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"And I think you preach that you know better than anyone else fairly well, too, about many subjects, not just this one.... ;)"



So when its someone else you label it Preaching but when it is you...you call it your opinion. I see how it is....Typical.




No Ma B. I have agreed that vaccines can lend a hand in triggering autism. I just feel it is a rare occurrence and as other's here have said, many other contributing factors are a large part of this rarity.



You simply give all the negativity to vaccines, otherwise you wouldn't eat or breath. Since it is more than likely many factors together, including the foods we eat and crap in the air we breath, not just one.



You seem to go on theory for many things you believe in, rather than studies and proof.



ETA:

I am glad you enjoyed your rally. No, I don't care for sheep that have had scrapie in the past, from the very farm. Of which was sold to our food market.

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