Babies and Manipulation

Kellie - posted on 07/07/2011 ( 58 moms have responded )

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So I just had a rant in another community after reading a "helpful" response to an OP in a yet another different community and it got me thinking.

The "Helpful" tip was to let a 7 month old just CIO. Be strong, Be tough the baby will soon "learn" that it's night time and night time = sleep (the baby was waking 2 times a night wanting *gasp* food, how dare the bubba wake hungry...), anyway the Mum continued to say the Baby was Manipulating the OP and I've heard people say things like the Baby is "training" the Parent , in addition to Manipulating the Parent.

Is it just me or is this Irony in the best sense of the word?

YOU let the baby CIO to "Teach", get him/her to "learn" the way YOU want things to be done, um correct me if I'm wrong but is that not YOU Manipulating the Baby? Is that not YOU "training" the baby? to how you want the baby to behave?

Not to mention that a baby has NO idea what Manipulation is FFS, they have NO concept of Manipulation. They Cry believe it or not, because they NEED you. Geez who'd have thunk it?

Thoughts?

Disclaimer: General You, not aimed at any one person.

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Charlie - posted on 07/10/2011

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Jennifer I find your statement on parenting , children and manipulation a little......biased and entirely an adult perception with little basis on child development or what is psychologically appropriate of an infant.

Blanket statements like " they need to learn to "self soothe" or else YOU will be going in there all night long to help them return to sleep." rarely hold any merit.

And I agree with those who say there are varying differences between "styles" of CIO ...some of which is recognizing the infants cries and meaning , knowing when they are just fussing , knowing personality and likes such as being held or not being held and those who use CIO to practice neglectful and downright dangerous methods.

Yes there is a line between acceptable "CIO" or what I feel is more fussing it out and abusive CIO .

I am also perplexed at the idea that teaching is manipulation ....sorry but I disagree , we teach by repetition when you use an example to show the lesson over and over there are various methods of teaching ....Manipulation should never be involved of any of that, manipulation being an act of deceit or being devious to get their own way, the only time I see this happening as teaching is indoctrination of a child or emotional manipulation to brainwash.

I just feel as a small child who only has crying as a method to express need whether that is "mummy I am overtired and dont want you to hold me" ( usually also shown physically with the child struggling in the parents arm and a good sign they just want to be put down to fuss )
and "mummy I woke up alone, afraid and I dont know where you are comfort and reassure me " kind of cry.

Its about as strange to me as saying a child who CAN speak and says "mummy I need you im afraid, alone ect" and you attend to that need for comfort is an act of manipulation on the childs behalf.

I also want to point out that I do believe there does come a time for some mothers who need to use cry it out when weighing up the need for sleep and sanity and functioning at her best and comforting (in some cases) a child who has a higher dependence and suffering emotionally and physically from lack of sleep.

Merry - posted on 07/09/2011

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IMO, if a baby has to cry themselves to sleep it should be in the arms of a parent. Sometimes Eric would fight sleep and he would cry but I'd just hold him till he gave up and fell asleep.

My general advise us always, if it feels wrong don't do it. If you feel like your baby is fine go for it, but if it feels like they need you then go to them. Essentially follow your instincts. Don't do anything that feels wrong.
If you're standing outside their door worrying or crying then don't do it.

Merry - posted on 07/09/2011

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I don't use CIO. I don't think babies can manipulate ever.
Manipulate implies trying to get something you want but don't need.
Well babies need their mom, they need to be held and comforted and entertained.
They don't just need food and clean diapers and sleep.
They NEED their mom.
So when they need mom it's just as important as if they need food.
So if my son cries out for me in the middle of the night I am able to discern if he needs me or not. He's 2 and most of the times he will fall back asleep before I even get time to go in by him so I've recognized those cries and know to just wait and he's asleep in a second. But then there's other cries that I can tell he needs me. These are getting less and less as he gets older but still happens some nights. If he feels like he needs me then I'll be there for him.
His emotional well being is just as important to me as his physical well being.
That's what I think gets pushed aside some times when crying is misused.
I personally don't thi any crying should be left unattended.
Whining, fussing, whimpering is different.
If it's real crying then to me it should be attended.

A - posted on 07/09/2011

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According to one of my psychology books, I think its called The Developing Person (got it in college when I took a psych class) children aren't capable of manipulation until around age three. And the whole idea of teaching children to be "independent" by learning to self soothe or whatever you want to call it doesn't make since IMO because it's not letting your child be independent at all. In fact, its making them DEPENDENT on you to tell them when they are ready for things and forcing them in a situation in which they must somehow cope. Instead, letting your child lead the way on when he/she wants to STTN (or do any other milestone) and learn it on their own on their timetable is allowing your child to be independent. My son started standing up one day. He started walking one day. He started talking one day- with no coaxing from me. He will also STTN one day, without my "help".

Sherri - posted on 07/10/2011

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Kellie CIO is also different for every person. To me CIO was when they had a clean diaper, were fed, they didn't want to be held, didn't want to be put down. They were simply overtired and simply it was time to put them in their cribs to CIO because they just needed to sleep and nothing I could do to soothe them anyways.

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Merry - posted on 07/11/2011

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I think as long as mom feels comfortable with the sleep patterns then it's fine.
If she's comfortable with some whi ing or fussing or crying then her baby is likely fine. We can tell when our kids need us so if every mom trusted her gut it would be fine.
The issue is when moms do what feels wrong because some friend or dr told them it's necessary.
If mom is standing outside the door crying then it's not right. One mom on CoM said she would go outside for 30 minutes and then check to see if he was ok. That's neglectful.
If mom is comfortable with the time frequency and volume of crying then baby is probably fine.
But no one should be forcing themselves to ignore their baby at night time.

Johnny - posted on 07/11/2011

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I was never so tired that I was unable to comprehend developmental abilities though...

Johnny - posted on 07/11/2011

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I should add to my earlier post that my daughter was NOT a good sleeper at all. She was up hourly until at least 6 months but I do not remember when it actually stopped because I wa too delirious from lack of sleep. I am still recovering....

Stifler's - posted on 07/11/2011

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And EVERY FUICKING TIME I put either of my kids down fast asleep. they'd wake up and cry. So I patted them and then walked off.

Stifler's - posted on 07/11/2011

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Manipulating no, that's absurd. And yes sleep training is manipulating babies to sleep through the night. Not always a bad thing. My first kid would feed ALL night, every 3 hours. Then refuse to feed at all during the day. I am not nocturnal sorry, so I sleep trained him to sleep at night and feed at day.

Johnny - posted on 07/11/2011

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Feen nailed it IMO. I absolutely do not believe that infants are trying to manipulate us because there is absolutely no evidence to support that at all. Its utter bs and anyone that states it to be true is simply an ignoramus.

I did not ever do cio, I co -slept and used other techniques. My daughter is 2 1/2 and sleeps in her own bed through the night and is left to fall asleep on her own without any tears or hysterics. No struggle at all.

Vegemite - posted on 07/11/2011

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Sometimes I let them CIO sometimes I'll go and comfort them. It all depends on the cry and how long it lasts for. If they cry for more than a few minutes and the volume and intensity increases then I will go in. If the cry stays the same I'll let them cry a little longer, either they'll stop or I'll have to go into them. If the cry decreases in volume and intensity I'll let them CIO and they'll go back to sleep on their own faster than if I intervened. This still applies to them at 2 and 3.



The OP a nine month old is growing fast and most likely will need feeds during the night from time to time. When a baby is hungry feed it.

Amie - posted on 07/10/2011

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I think more parents use CIO without even knowing they do.



A lot of people have a misconception of what CIO is because of people who abuse the term.



I also think the term CIO can be misleading. Yes sometimes the older babies and toddlers cry, that does not mean it happens every single day that CIO is used. Sometimes they don't cry at all, they fuss.



I know I was a staunch advocate against CIO until I read a lot of mom's replies (on here) who used CIO responsibly and successfully. I also learned, I am a mother who uses CIO.



No big deal. I just do not like the ones who abuse the term or who try to do it without really knowing what they're doing. I admit, I did it without knowing what I was doing but I also did not just leave my babies to wail for hours on end. That's not CIO, that's neglect.

Sherri - posted on 07/10/2011

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That is also a benefit of having kids spaced out my first two are only 18mo's apart so my first one had to go to bed when it was time a hug, kiss off to bed on his own since I had a newborn that was a HORRIBLE infant. My second one only slept one hour at a time he was a killer. Thank heavens my older one was pretty happy being more independent. Plus I was working fulltime too. So sometimes my second one had to cry a lot because I had a toddler that I needed to tend to and show love too also. Sometimes I just couldn't run to his every beckon call even if I wanted too. It was a very delicate balancing act.

Rosie - posted on 07/10/2011

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my children would cry longer if i held them. they got more sleep after 4-5 days of using CIO than me going in there everytime and holding them.
i think you all are not aware of what MOST people mean by CIO. you dont' leave your kid to wail for hours without checking in on them. you make sure everything that they could possibly need is taken care of, THEN leave them for a few minutes, not hours. go in, rub their back for a few, and leave again. babies cry because they are overstimulated or overtired. me holding my child was overstimulating them more, making them worse.
this whole everybody needs to be consoled crap just irks me. of course we console our kids when needed with CIO.

and when do you NOT need to manipulate to teach? that's what teaching is, you do a certain thing over and over again and the child eventually learns from it. whether that be by helping them or them learning it on their own. i just prefer to have my children sleep at night. it's not healthy for a child to lack sleep. it's not healthy for their mother to lack sleep. it's win, win. i don't get the out cry over it. i do get the outcry at leaving the child to cry for hours without checking on them or doing anything to comfort them. BUT that's not the CIO method anyone in their right mind talks about.

Constance - posted on 07/10/2011

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I never used CIO ever. When they get older a little fussing was ok but by that tme I knew if they were hungry or just trying to get comfortable again. This is how it has been for generations in my family.

" Look Who's Talking" wasa funny showing of parenthood of newborns but babies don't wake up and say "Oh they come when I cry so let me cry. It just doesn't work that way.

I hd a friend yrs ago that I babysat for. Her 3rd was her oops baby but she loved her just the same. When her daughter turned12 monthes the doctor told her just to let her cry it out. So she did and for monthes not days but monthes. She would stand in her crib and scream for hours. It drove me nuts they lived across the street from me and Icould hear herith all the windows closed. She never vomited but I told her you got to do something else. She lays down for me at naptime without a fight. She stopped doing it after I hidea nanny cam in the bedroom and we found ou th reason why she was crying so much was her 10 yr old daughter. After that issue got fixed she laid down and slept without any fight.

I don't believe it is health for any child to cry without being consoled. When we cry we want to be consoled.

Kellie - posted on 07/10/2011

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LOL love the snuggle bug! There have been many many times where she's had nap time on me Laura! I've spent hours 'pinned' down by Rayne, I love it :D but she also needs her own space and I respect that. Because she's crawling and has been for awhile she likes to explore and is happy to amuse herself, however there are also times where she just wants to be held by me and is happy sitting in the crook of my arm on the couch for however long too. She's quite the determined little girl with quite a good balance between being independent and needing me to cuddle/amuse her/play with her etc.

Merry - posted on 07/10/2011

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Yeah I guess erics never wanted his own space :) he would sleep on top of me if he could! He's my snuggle bug :)

Kellie - posted on 07/10/2011

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I've done the same Laura, when she's been having an overtired meltdown I've held her until she is calm, soothed her and she's gone to sleep in my arms. Different strokes for different folks I guess. But if she's really telling me she doesn't want to be held them I put her down and say in the room, so I'm there but she's got her own space.

Kellie - posted on 07/10/2011

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I think that's where the listening to your baby comes into it Sherri. Sometimes she doesn't want to be held so she'll go in her cot and I'll leave her to it, she might grizzle for like a minute until she finds her spot, but she also knows I will NOT ignore her and just leave her to CIO by her little self. She is secure in the knowledge that I will go to her if she cries because I don't believe she is manipulating me but that she needs me for whatever reason.



Edited to Add:



She rarely cries, so when she does I know it's for a reason and I get up and go to her. She'll also wake up from a nap sometimes and not 'call me' straight away, I leave her to it at those times and go get her when she 'calls' me. I believe she is so comfortable BECAUSE I go to her every time she cries.

Merry - posted on 07/10/2011

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Sherri that happened to me too, I'd just hold him while he cried it out, then put him in his crib onc he was asleep. The crying was unavoidable sometimes, but I didn't want him to cry alone. Now he was my first so idk how it will work with two, but I really doubt id be able to leave a crying baby alone.
Long term damage? Nah, it just breaks my heart soi wouldn't do it.

Merry - posted on 07/10/2011

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They don't get less sleep either way. One way mom is with them while they fall asleep, the other way the child is alone while they fall asleep. In fact Eric fell asleep much much faster when I nursed him to keep. Now that he falls asleep alone he takes alot longer to drift off.
I do agree sometimes mom has to do what she has to do. Eric had to learn to fall asleep alone when Fierna was born cuz she cried alot every night so I couldn't put Eric to sleep like I used to. But I'm not saying he's better off because he had to grow up so fast.it's just life and stuff happens.

Kellie - posted on 07/10/2011

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Since when do we need to manipulate to teach? I prefer to guide where needed and listen to my daughter. Why do they need to CIO, they are not developmentally ready to self soothe. CIO teaches them (when done wrong) that they are alone and no one cares. By attending to my daughter when she cries I have a 7 month old who can go to sleep in different ways. She can be put in her cot awake and go off to sleep on her own, she can go to sleep on me then be transferred to her cot, if she wakes crying (which is almost never) a simple stroke to her forehead and a reassuring Mummy's here and she's back off to sleep again. They NEED reassurance that someone is there.

*Baby Centre*

"Spoiled children" have learned to use negative behavior to get what they want. But your baby is too young to purposefully manipulate or annoy you. He cries to communicate his needs, whether they're for a snack, a dry diaper, or a little cuddling with Mom or Dad. When you respond quickly to your baby, you're building his sense of self-worth. You're also establishing a foundation of trust that can last for years to come.

If you give your baby prompt attention, he'll feel more secure and less anxious, giving him the courage to explore the world on his own. And once he understands that you take his cries seriously, he'll be less likely to cry for no reason. In the long run, responding quickly to your baby's needs will make him less clingy and demanding, not more."

As for the "toss the toy" game, it's just that, a GAME. It's about learning and having fun and seeing how many times Mummy will hand it back, I don't think in a manipulative way but in a wheeeee this is fun look what I can do, it's about testing limits, not manipulation.

http://www.babycenter.com/404_should-i-w...

Sherri - posted on 07/10/2011

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Sometimes Laura parents do what is right for them and if that means your child falls asleep on there own so be it, just like it is okay for you, not to want your child too. Neither is right or wrong it is what works best in your home. Everyone's situations are different.

Merry - posted on 07/10/2011

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Lol
God forbid parents help their little ones fall asleep.
They don't need to be forced into learning how to fall asleep alone. You don't force your kid to learn any other new stages so WHY is it ok to force them to learn to fall asleep alone?
We don't make them learn to color in the lines....we don't make them learn to walk,.....they grow and develop naturally and yes they will learn to fall asleep alone on their own time frame.
Ya don't think there's moms that have to help their 18 year olds fall asleep right? Well then obviously at some time every kid will be able to fall asleep alone with no pushing from mom.
If the mom has to speed up the process for her own needs, fine, do it gently and sensitively, but don't kid yourself into thinking it's benefitting the kid at all.

sorry I'm in a mood tonight.....

Jennifer - posted on 07/10/2011

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Parents need to manipulate and teach their children. That's their job! As for letting them Cry it out, they need to learn to "self soothe" or else YOU will be going in there all night long to help them return to sleep. Letting them cry it out allows them to teach themselves how to comfort themselves back to sleep and is normal. Crying is not always because a baby NEEDS you. Sometimes it is releasing frustration at learning a new task.... like learning to put themselves back to sleep! Babies and Children do NOT know the word manipulation but they know the concept. It only takes a few times of "cry and watch mama run" to figure out that they can do this constantly. They are learning what control they have on their surroundings. What do you think the "toss the toy and watch someone hand it back to me" thing is about? It has NOTHING to do with needs and everything to do with manipulation and control.

Jenni - posted on 07/10/2011

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I'm not a fan of debating CIO. Different strokes for different folks. I don't agree with it but I think when approached responsibly it isn't going to do any harm. I approached that thread to defend feeding on demand and attending to your baby's needs at night. I personally didn't have problems with this style of parenting, although I'm sure some parents do run into issues. I'm sure there are detrimentalities to both styles as well as benefits.



But I feel, and of course this is just my opinion, that if a 7 month old is waking for night feedings there is a very good chance he may still require night-time feeds to ensure he is receiving adequate nutrition. Also, that in my own experience (with 3 children) that feeding on demand didn't lead my children to become habitual night wakers. That was my stance on that thread. Blech. I certainly, wasn't interested in turning the OP question into a debate about CIO vs other sleep-training vs AP. No thanks. I'll let someone else have at it! lol

Sylvia - posted on 07/09/2011

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You know, that kind of advice would be hilarious if it weren't that so many people take it seriously and are mean to their babies as a result :(

It's especially absurd when people say this kind of thing about newborns (which, unfortunately, people totally do). The idea that a person who can't even reliably get its fingers into its mouth or its feet out of its socks is somehow capable of all this advanced forward reasoning ... seriously, people? You look at a 3-week-old baby and you see a con artist? What does that say about YOU?

As I say, it would be funny except that new parents get this advice from more experienced parents and think they should be following it. And then you get situations like the people we knew in our old building who adopted a 9-month-old baby from China and a few months later, on the advice of people who had never adopted a child and whose business it wasn't anyway, decided that it was bad for her to let her sleep with them when she woke up at night and started putting her in her crib and just letting her cry. Because that's what a baby who spent 9 months in an orphanage, then suddenly got new parents and was moved halfway around the world to an unfamiliar culture, needs when she wakes up scared in the middle of the night: for her parents to lie there and let her scream! D: (Did I mention that, like us, this family lived in a 1-bedroom apartment?) When the mum told me about all this it was clear she felt bad about it, but also that she felt it was The Right Thing To Do. I didn't know what to say -- I didn't want to sound judgy, but my conscience also wouldn't let me say oh, yes, keep at it, you're doing the right thing!. So I think I said something wishy-washy like "Everyone's different -- we actually really like co-sleeping ..." I'm not saying what they did is necessarily going to scar their little girl for life, or anything like that -- just that stupid advice from people who didn't think it through made this family's life very difficult at a time when it was already tricky enough.

Charlie - posted on 07/09/2011

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That post (from the other thread ) is cold, insensitive, and just plain ignorant of a childs needs and developmental stage...UGH I really dont want to have to dissect it bit by bit on why it infuriates me ....it just does.

If a child wakes in hunger you feed it dammit or put it up for adoption and let someone who cares raise it.

Sorry short fuse with humanity today.

[deleted account]

Is this the comment in question?

Cheridy Mukherjee - posted 2 days ago

Let her cry it out. Be strong, be brave and she will learn soon enough when it's time to go to bed, it's time. You are telling her she's in charge when you keep going in, giving her drinks and responding. Let her be alone in there and she will get tired."

Kati, I do see what you're saying. If mom keeps going in and feeding baby, baby will never learn to sleep through the night. Sometimes babies aren't waking because they're hungry, but from habit instead. Especially breastfed babies. I think sometimes moms misread the babies cues and automatically assume they need a bottle or that they're hungry. I think some moms need to try and soothe baby back to sleep without sticking a bottle in their mouth.

Besides that, I think THAT comment, or comments like that, give the 'Cry It Out' method of sleep training a bad, bad name. My understand is that she expects them to leave the baby alone and not give in to the crying. Anyhow, I agree that we do need to change a baby's routine/habits when they're not conducive with sleep, but not by leaving the baby alone.

I will say though, that I don't think there's anything wrong with training a baby to sleep longer intervals without FOOD. It all depends on the age and the circumstances

I'm rambling.....

[deleted account]

Perhaps a link to the conversation in question would be helpful? Kati interpreted differently, and I'm curious to read it for myself.

Anyone?

Rosie - posted on 07/09/2011

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Well, yes and no. I do not believe that a baby knows its manipulating you, but they do still do it. You do things so many times they come to expect that, you do something different (cio) they come to expect that. I get what she's saying she just isn't saying it to clearly, don't know if I am either though...

Ella - posted on 07/09/2011

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good post Sara. Can relate to that my 1 yr old stands at the baby gate crying while I cook dinner or do dishes, I feel bad but things have got to be done. I do pick her up alot of the time, but know that people have said to me she needs to learn won't hurt her to cry, but some mums are stronger then others

Erin - posted on 07/09/2011

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If you're weird Kellie, then so am I. Because that is exactly how I approach motherhood.

Kellie - posted on 07/08/2011

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Jennifer, I saw. You did a great job at replying, I had to refrain I don't do idiots well.... I also agree with not forcing something they are not developmentally ready for. It IMO makes life way more harder than it needs to be.

I didn't mean for this to be either a CIO bashing or yet another CIO debate, I don't like it or the idea of it, it just feels wrong to me. But that's me. I more wanted to discuss this idea of babies manipulating you, that by holding them, tending to them when they "ask" you to, is somehow spoiling them. That we carry them under our hearts for 9 months, or choose them for those who adopt, that we then immediately start pushing them away and hide behind shit like, oh I'm not tending to him/her right now he/she's just attention seeking. Well DUH.

I go by the, "if it's not ok for this to be done to me or another adult then why is it ok to do it to a baby" idea. So if it's not ok to 'spank' another adult then it's not ok to spank a child. If you need comfort and go to your partner/parent/friend and they turned to you and said, nope sorry go CIO yourself, you're big enough to deal now, how would that make you feel? Well that's how your baby is feeling funnily enough. Except your baby doesn't have a voice to say, wow what an asshole thanks for nothing.

When we were going to my MIL's for example, we'd hardly get in the door and she'd take Rayne out of my arms and put her in some randoms arms. In the end I was like that's not ok, you have to stop and respect my daughter, she may be a baby but she's a person too. How would you feel if one of my friends came over that you'd never met and I said sit on their lap? You'd feel uncomfortable, so why then is it ok to just rip her out of my arms and give her to a stranger without letting her asses them first? why is this ok for a baby but not an adult?

I have let Rayne lead me in regards to her wants/needs. As in does she want to go to bed on her own or does she want a cuddle and to fall asleep on me? Does she want to crawl everywhere or does she want to lay on me quietly? Is she happy exploring on her own or does she want to play with me? Is she hungry, does she want to have her bottle now? is she tired and ready for a nap? I'm not keen on forcing my will onto her at all but especially not for my convenience. I listen to her, sure she's only 7 months old but babies communicate in their own way and she's not shy about telling me what she needs.

This does not mean she'll be left to run wild and do as she pleases, there will be rules, discipline and consequences for bad behaviour.

I dunno, I'm just a weirdo I guess....

Dana - posted on 07/08/2011

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Responses to threads like that make me want to rip my hair out. It's amazing that such immature/simple minded people can have babies.

Sherri - posted on 07/08/2011

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I started CIO at about 4mo's but I certainly never denied food. I was always there to feed them, etc.

Lacye - posted on 07/08/2011

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I am a supporter of CIO but the way this woman was going about it was all wrong. If the child is hungry, you feed it.

I started my daughter with CIO when she was about 7 months but by that time she was already sleeping all night, wasn't waking up until the next morning and she was sleeping with me. I wanted my baby girl to learn to start sleeping by herself and that is why I started the CIO method. It worked for me.

Jenn - posted on 07/08/2011

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People, namely family, told me that kind of crap with both of my babies! I do not believe in CIO and my now 4 and 7 year olds are sweet, secure, happy girls! I agree with others, moms like that are suggesting neglect, not CIO!

Sara - posted on 07/08/2011

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As with everything else in life, how a baby reacts to us and how we react to them is as different between family sets as night and day. However, it is my sincere belief that in those first few precious months in a baby's life, there is no other option than to pick up your baby and care for it. A baby that young doesn't understand crying for "want". They cry for "need". If a young baby is crying, it is because they absolutely need something and to me, there should be no other option then to provide.



Fast forward a few months. At around six months, babies begin to understand want. Anyone who is a parent can relate to holding an older infant in the checkout line at the store. So your baby reaches over, grabs something off the shelf that you either don't want her to have or is dangerous for her. You take it away. Screaming follows. Why? Because she wanted that object and you wouldn't give it to her. Do you give in just because she is screaming for an object she doesn't need?



The same rule applies at home. Older babies begin to learn what works to get them what they want. What's hard about this time in life is that babies this age still cry when they need something and then they also cry when they want something. Another example, while you are doing the dishes, your baby crawls up to you, pushes up to stand on your leg, looks up at you, and begins to wail. Assuming you've just fed him, his diaper has been changed and it's not sleepy time yet, you know that all he wants is to be held by you. Do you pick him up, or do you teach him that when you are busy with a chore, he'll have to soothe himself for a few minutes?



While I hold my own particular beliefs on this subject, it is not my place to tell other parents that they are right or wrong on this because parenting is so diverse that I don't believe there is a right or wrong when speaking in general terms. I do believe older babies can be manipulative, but not in the Stewie Griffin sense of vindictive manipulation or world dominance. They just want things no matter if they need them or not and they learn from you if the behavior to get what they want works or not...

[deleted account]

I did everything my babies wanted me to.They turned out fantastic.
If the wanted to be held to fall asleep like my first girl.I did that and then put her down.
I fed her if she woke to be fed at night.
My second slept right through.
I did what my girls wanted as there little people with needs and wants.Not robots for me to train to react they way i wish them to.This is my own personal view.:-)

Jenni - posted on 07/08/2011

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Totally Agree with you Kellie.

I had my own responses in that thread.



Now of course I can only speak from my own personal experience. I do realize all babies are different. But with my children they still required night feedings at around 7 months. I was also nursing. But I can't stand the "You're baby should be doing this by this age..." Then when the baby doesn't follow the baby protocol some parents think there is something wrong with their baby or how they are parenting.

I did 'schedule' my son based on these generalities (during the daytime) and regret it. But it was more of a guideline for me as a new parent not for him. I did NOT schedule my other children. Nor did I use CIO with any of them. If they woke at night, I tended to their needs.



So based on my own experience I don't believe babies are manipulative. Because despite my 'doting on them' (just attending to their needs) at night. They still slept the typical 5-6 hours between 6-8 weeks. And slept a full 10-12 hours by 8-9 months. After that I had no issues with nightwaking other than during times they were teething. They did NOT become habitual night-wakers.



I do not believe you can spoil a baby. I believe in following my baby's cues. You have a baby, and chances are your own sleep is going to be jepordized. Even up to 2 years of age and beyond.

I won't judge another parents' method on this however. Everyone has extenuating circumstances... like returning to work, requiring more sleep to function than I do (I do pretty well on little sleep) and what not... but I don't believe tending to your baby's needs at night time will lead them to manipulating you.



I see the irony in it, but it comes down to a difference in parenting philosophies. Her philosophy, which seems on the extreme end of the spectrum, is that the child conforms to their parents' lives. The other end of the spectrum is the parent conforms to their child's lives.



I personally prefer a balance to that philosophy as the child ages. A natural seperation of child and parent as the child becomes more independent. I prefer to encourage my child to become independent rather than force. I *try* to find a balance between the two philosophies but I do not believe in forcing a baby to do things before they are developmentally ready to reach those milestones.

Ella - posted on 07/08/2011

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ugh so annoying. Why do some people have children frustrates the heck out of me. When you have a baby, you have to get up to them DEAL WITH IT. They are only babies for a short time. Enjoy it and cherish it, gah. Nothing wrong with feesding/comforting a baby or young child at night. Ive got friends who drug thier babies up to their eye balls on nurofen panadol or pain stop on a daily basis night and day time to get them to sleep and I wonder why some people have children, but thats kind of off topic. No baby's dont manipulate you. They need thier mother. SO what if they ont have a wet nappy, or arent hungry, or arent unwell , maybe they are scared, or had a nightmare. Sure theres a limit, for me personally I would always take the advice of the professionals with regards to always putting baby down and teaching baby to go to sleep by him/herself, but if they were upset or not ready to go sleep im not going to let them cry, unless Ive worked with all other optionsd first, and Im not going to leave them cry when they wake up whether it be my three year old or my 1 year old. I love having cuddles and feeding my bubba at night and I love laying with and cuddling my 3 yr old when she gets scared

Kellie - posted on 07/08/2011

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LOL my daughter does the same! she'll wake from a nap, cry to let me know it's time to go get her, as soon as I walk in the room she hides her face then looks at me with that cheeky I'm sooooo happy you're here Mummy smile babies have. It's way cute. Or if she's not settling at nap time and I go down to see if she a) needs an adjustment re-tuckin or b) cuddles with Mummy to go to sleep, she'll do the happy kick dance complete with smiles cheeky turd, but I've never thought she's manipulating me. I mean really far out!

Some things I will never understand no matter how hard I try.

Sarah - posted on 07/08/2011

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It's because of people like that CIO has a bad name.

If your baby wakes up hungry......you still feed them!

I've used my own little version of CIO with both my girls, it certainly didn't involve leaving them hungry or crying in the middle the night unattended.

[deleted account]

Wow, thats just ridiculous. Anytime my 6 month old cries... for whatever reason im right there to pick her up if im not already holding her. They are happy when you hold them and love on them and talk to them, I LOVE when she smiles because of some stupid noise or face im making. I dont get some people.

Vicki - posted on 07/08/2011

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Agree with you Kellie. Babies aren't manipulative. I've read someone saying 'My baby girl is so manipulative. She cries. When I come in she stops crying and smiles, therefore she's manipulating me.' Um, maybe she was upset that you weren't there then was happy that you were? Not rocket science really.

Kellie - posted on 07/07/2011

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Oh well, I guess my daughter is going to grow up *spoiled* etc then because I refuse to let her CIO and I hold her when she wants to be held, I even let her fall asleep on me, oh dear what kind of person am I helping to shape...

[deleted account]

Kellie, a lot of people fear creating future bad habits, because there are so many "helpful" people who tell new parents:



If you... they will never...

If you don't stop... they will always...



I had to learn to tune out people who use that type of sentence construction to give parenting advice. Because it's total hyperbole and obviously not true or evidence-based.



I try to listen to people who recognize that babies are individuals with different temperaments, and that different households have different needs.

Erin - posted on 07/07/2011

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People said this sort of shit to me when my daughter was a baby. Amie is right. It's along the same lines as the idea that babies get spoiled by being held a lot. Very old school, and not at all how I choose to parent.

Amie - posted on 07/07/2011

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Those are the same type of people who believe a baby will become spoiled if you hold them too much. Pffttt

Kellie - posted on 07/07/2011

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It's the whole 'they're trying to manipulate/train you' mentality that gets me. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a baby can knowingly manipulate you. How could anyone believe this? I don't get it!

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