Birth Rape

Nancy - posted on 01/02/2013

I would have grateful to just have a healthy baby,regardless of how they had to get it here.I've never had to have a cesarean so I don't know what it's like.I also haven't seen the story.I do know that she should be grateful the baby's ok .At that point,birth plans go out the window and just get the baby out safely.

Candyce - posted on 05/07/2012

I said the same thing! I had this whole plan to have my first son naturally, without any medication or anything! I was terrified when they told me that I would have to have a C-section, but I wouldn't have been able to deliver my over 9 pound baby without something going wrong. I'm so thankful that my doctor did what was best for my child and didn't just go along with my original birth plan. I'm now pregnant with my second child and though I wanted to try a natural birth this time, my doctor has advised me against it. I trust what my doctor tells me is what is safest for me and my baby! If you don't trust your doctor, why do you have that doctor??? Thank God for smart doctors and healthy babies!!! :)

Emma - posted on 05/06/2012

I had a horrible, awful traumatic birth, but I would never call it rape. I have been sexually assaulted and raped and they don't even compare.

Teresa - posted on 05/05/2012

I agree with jackie, but then my babies come so early and so fast there is no room for a "delivery agenda". My first was born within an hour of the first pain and 28 weeks early. My second was almost born in the ER triage (not even 30 minutes after my first pain) and was 5 weeks early. I had hoped for one of those TV deliveries where everyone is there and the mother is calmly pushing the baby out and everybody is calm and happy. By my 5th ttrip to the ER in two weeks with my second, I knew, that was not to be me. BUt now I have a happy healthy 3 month old and couldn't care less how he got here, but it was memorable no matter what.

Tina - posted on 05/03/2012

I have to admit I was pretty stubborn with having my 1st child. I was determined to have a natural birth. But it really wasn't possible for me. Labour wasn't progressing things were looking pretty grim. Apparently there'd be talk of a c section before the doctor told me it was in my best interest but when you're in that much pain you don't really take much notice of what's going on around you. My mother and partner had to beg me to have an epidural they were probably more scared than I was. I just thought I was doing what was best for my child. I was determined to do what ever I had to do. And I thought I was doing the right thing. My determination and stubborness could have cost me my son and my own life. If woman are as stubborn as I was and it is a dangerous situation. I'm not saying her doctors handled it the best way if the story is true. But it could just be a case of both mother and baby were in trouble and they had to do what they had to do. But I know there are cases where C sections are done for other reasons.

Kate CP - posted on 04/23/2012

Yea, midwives can be total asshats, just like doctors and nurses. I had an AWFUL midwife with my daughter and was eventually handed off to an OBGYN because my midwife didn't believe I had hyperemesis. My OB is pretty good, but I was upset that he didn't deliver my son (the on-call did). I was also upset that the hospital didn't have as much stuff as birthing centers do (squat bars, birthing stools, tubs, etc). It's not that ALL hospitals are like that, but this one was kinda stuck in the dark ages. :/

I think there is a level of obstetric care in the US that some hospitals and midwives manage to achieve but most miss the mark. I'm not blaming doctors, because their hands really are tied when it comes to hospital policy, but the hospitals are SO worried about being sued (rightfully so) that they often leave little to no wiggle room for expecting moms. At least in the US, that's the way it is. I just think the whole medical system is so FUBAR'd...it really needs to be fixed. :/

Mary - posted on 04/23/2012

Rebecca, midwives certainly do get sued, but not with the same frequency. It's not necessarily because they are better practitioners (although some certainly are), or even at testimony to less intervention being "right". You have to remember that they only care for the low risk population. Any time a woman develops almost any type of risk factor, she gets turfed off to an OB. There's also this funny little twist that happens when things start to go bad either with a home birth or one at a birthing center, and the mom is transferred to the hospital for the actual delivery; if the overall outcome is bad for the baby, it is often the delivering OB who gets sued, and not the midwife. There are multiple reasons for this. One is that most lawyers encourage pursuing the hospital and physician, simply because they have "deeper pockets". Another is that it is just easier to place the blame and seek retribution on someone/something that you have no prior relationship with, instead of that nice provider whom you got to like over the nine months you were seeing them.

Vicki - posted on 04/22/2012

Mary I never thought that you in particular assumed that every intervention was necessary. I think if we talked in real life, we'd find our positions weren't that radically opposed. I'm not opposed to intervention in of itself, I understand emergencies happen (I'm an EMD and a student paramedic, have had real life experience with obstetric emergencies although peanuts compared to your experience of course). I don't consider myself a natural birth 'extremist', but like in the second article I posted, scientific evidence supports natural options in most cases and that's what I choose. I think (like you say) that the main culprit in the crazy rise in interventions is the litigious culture we practice in, although I don't absolve drs and the maternity system of blame by that statement. The example you gave... I don't know what the solution is. It's obviously tragic for the woman and family involved, and personally I wouldn't choose to sue. I'd be devastated of course, but nature isn't perfect and it's not practical or sensible to screen for everything (I had no scans or tests, so wouldn't/couldn't blame anyone for not detecting abnormalities).



My main point is though, that there are too many examples of women being disrespected in hospitals, whether it's from insensitive comments to physical acts being forced on women without their consent. I will always attest that birthrape happens, anyone in any setting who is penetrated (digitally or with an object) while they are being held down and screaming NO and after refusing the procedure in the first place, has the right to call their experience rape. Yes the fog of pain and the intensity of the moment may make women misconstrue some of what they are hearing (like I say, I work in emergency situations, I know stressed people!) but I have heard too many examples to discount it. In my friend's example, her midwives wrote down what was said by her and the drs, also during my labour my midwife recorded what was said by myself and the professionals in the room, so there is records of more than memory. I still think labouring women are seen as less than sensible and not capable of making decisions about their own body, I've come across this attitude in my work and well as social circles. People often say that you leave your dignity at the door with birth, I don't think it should be like that.

Rebecca - posted on 04/22/2012

Do people think midwives don't get sued either?

Mary Renee - posted on 04/22/2012

I disagree with the original poster 100%



You don't just want a baby with 10 fingers and 10 toes. You want the healthiest baby possible. And 9 times out of 10, natural child birth is safer and it hormonally jumpstarts the hormonal processes one needs to FEED their baby when it comes to breastfeeding. You want a baby with 10 fingers and 10 toes... AND probably the ability to feed your baby the best possible nutrition, right? And the ability to get up afterward and take care of your baby with out recovering from someone CUTTING INTO YOUR BODY with out your consent. Right?



That's not selfish. If anyone is selfish, it is the doctors. They want to do everything in the way that is convenient for them and don't care about the importance of the bond between mother and child. I would definitely sue if this happened to me, no question about it.



And I don't know that I disagree with the term rape. Sticking a penis in your body with out your consent, or sticking a knife in your body with out your consent. She should not have been gassed with out having spoken to her husband first. When I was in labor I needed my boyfriend every step of the way to be my advocate when I was in pain the doctors wouldn't listen to me when I said I didn't want medical students practicing pulling a baby out of a vagina.

Lisa - posted on 04/22/2012

I agree that maybe rape is the wrong term for this as it's is insulting to women who were raped. However i do think that what happened to little miss is tragic as it took away something so precious from her because of cold calculating insurance measures.

Lisa - posted on 04/22/2012

I agree cyndel that is the general problem with all of this. I feel really hospitals should just get out of the business of births unless they are high risk as return to allowing midwives to do the job. This would basically solve all the problems with this.

Cyndel - posted on 04/22/2012

Mary,

It is a viscous cycle, Doctors will continue to act in the best way to protect themselves even if it means that they do unnecessary interventions until they no longer fear nonsensical law suits. People will continue to sue for crazy things until they feel fully involved, informed, and in control of their medical care (even then there will still be greedy selfish people trying to earn a buck on an accident that was no ones fault).

America is so bad about this. I'm gonna teach my children what they need to know so they can be fully informed and understand enough to be a team with their care provider rather then a sheep.

Lisa - posted on 04/22/2012

This is really something Place should not be doing in that they are writing stories based off of a internet forum post. You can't corroborate or even check to see if the story is correct. Just a check on her posts you can see she has an anti medicine/doctor view. I think you either have 2 things going on here. 1.) This post is BS just to try to bolster her pro VBAC credentials in the group. Or 2.) This did happen, but with consent but she is feeling both guilty, and distraught over the fact she had to have another c.) sections. You will also find that she has had a fair amount of issues in the past http://community.babycenter.com/post/a24...



To me what doesn't add up is the lack of information. Like they did the c-section in private with no recorded records so she couldn't sue lol.

Mary - posted on 04/22/2012

Actually, Vicki, my position is not that "every intervention done to women in hospitals is necessary". Unlike you, I know that the truth lies somewhere in the middle; unlike you, my position is a result of having actually worked in obstetrics for a number of years, and not just based on hearsay and anecdotal stories from other moms in a play group, the gym, or wherever. I know that unnecessary interventions occur all the time, but I also know that the demonizing, embellishment, and exaggeration of the "sins" of healthcare providers occurs just as frequently. I know that there are times when interventions are not needed, and can themselves be a cause of harm, and I know that there are times when failing to intervene can cause irreparable damage. I know doctors that are entirely too quick to cut, but I also know midwives that are so married to the ideals of "natural" birth that they refuse to intervene, or seek help, when it is clearly warranted. I've encountered women that are blind sheep and swallow whatever their chosen provider says as the absolute incontrovertible truth, as well as those who won't even remotely consider a suggestion or word of caution that may deviate from what that have already determined is "best".



I come from a position of knowing that extremists on either "side" of the natural vs medical are detrimental to pregnant women as a whole. I also know that, particularly in the US, there is a 3rd party at play in this equation that has made it damned near impossible for these two sides to find that middle ground: those who clamor for the placement of blame and punishment when an outcome is less than perfect. I don't just mean lawyers - I also include those who either seek, or encourage others to seek retribution and compensation when a child has even the slightest hint of imperfection. Are there times when this imperfection is a result of provider error? Absolutely. However, there are also many, many occasions when it is nothing more than an act of nature, and not preventable by any man - and yet society demands that someone be held accountable.



I didn't dislike the most recent link you posted; there was a fair amount in it I agreed with. However, what the author conveniently failed to address is the simple truth that OB's can and will be penalized when they fail to act. The sad truth is, we have evolved to a point where OB's have been pressured and forced into practicing defensive medicine, including all of those interventions that they know aren't always necessary or warranted.



In your article, the author talks about her choice to not have a prenatal sonogram. I absolutely concur with her choice. However, I have also seen this same "choice" be used in an accusatory manner against a doctor. Years ago, we had a woman show up in L&D who was 38 weeks. It was her 2nd pregnancy, and had been completely without complications. She had no risk factors. She had driven herself in (her partner had been out with their daughter). It was a 45 minute drive, and she bypassed 2 other closer hospitals on her way. According to her, she had been napping, and woke up in a pool of blood. Her husband later described their bedroom and bathroom as looking as if an animal had been slaughtered there. She was not in pain, nor did she feel as if she was contracting. She was not actively bleeding upon arrival, but attempts to find a fetal heart with a doppler were unsuccessful, and a bedside ultrasound showed a fetal heartrate in the 50's. From arrival time to time of birth via section was about 20 minutes. The baby was dead, and despite heroic resusc attempts, they never got that heart to beat again. Turns out that there was a vasa previa which had ruptured, and that baby had pretty much bled to death in utero. Her OB only happened to be the one to operate because she was already present on the unit with another patient.



This woman had absolutely no risk factors for this condition. She had only had the one (standard) anatomy screening US at 19 weeks, which would not be capable of diagnosing this condition. There was nothing to suggest that she needed any addition prenatal screening. And yet...one year later, that OB was being sued for not anticipating the impossible, and sending her for an additional sono with color-flow doppler (the only way to diagnose this condition prenatally - and not even a remotely common test in the absence of any risk factors). Despite the fact that this OB was not at fault for the death of this baby, and all of the expert testimony that supported this - the family won a huge settlement based on the allegation that the OB's "failure to act" had caused the baby's death.



The message that this, and all other types of lawsuits clearly sends to the medical community? You must act, or your failure to do so leaves you wide open for punishment later.

Karla - posted on 04/22/2012

Karla,"We also live in the blogging world where many people share their experience, that doesn’t necessarily give us license to judge one another."

Mary, ‘The problem I have with this statement is that, in a situation such as this one, the blogger is presenting their perception of what happened as an accurate version of what actually occurred. I've been in the somewhat unique position of being with numerous friends and family members for their deliveries - sometimes as their actual L&D nurse, and sometimes as just an additional support person.’

I never said the original post was anything other than the mother’s perception of what happened. My quote above was about the blogger and the OP and comments here.

A woman shared her story, and the blogger linked in the OP took that story and made it her own turning a “horrid experience” into a “birth rape” story. Even though I agree that in traumatic experiences people often do not have an accurate recollection of what happened, I also think that the blogger turning it into a “birth rape” and the OP saying “To me, it is borderline selfish. Wahhh I want to experience natural birth....” are unfair judgments. In actuality the original poster needs to find a way to deal with her disappointments.

IMO It’s very troubling that a woman shares her perception of what happened and others use it for their own agenda, or to make judgments about her emotions. Whether her perceptions are accurate or not, she obviously felt violated and she should seek answers and help.

Vicki - posted on 04/21/2012

Actually Mary I've heard about abuse and mistreatment too often to think that it's rare. Your position assumes that every intervention done to women in hospitals is necessary (it's totally not, high intervention rates are insane, and do not contribute to improvements in mortality and morbidity in birth) and that it's women who are twisting what is said to them.



To be honest I'd find the phrase "The baby's heart rate is very concerning, and I therefore feel the need to do _____" as patronising and non-informative. How about "The baby's heartrate is dropping to x during contractions but recovering fine in between. This is fine for now, but I suggest maybe moving around a bit more to help bub shift position in case there's some cord compression and regular doppler checks to make sure it remains ok"..... or "The baby's heartrate has dropped and not recovered, we need to do something quickly, your choices are vacuum extraction or caeser."



Here is a great article on the scientific basis for avoiding intervention http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archiv...

Cyndel - posted on 04/21/2012

I don't give a damn about experiencing a natural birth, but I also believe that unless I agree it is necessary no C-section will be done on me because of the dangers of surgery.

Surgery is a lot safer then it used to be but it doesn't mean it is safe...I'll never believe being cut open is safe, merely necessary sometimes, and safer then in the past.

I think people are too eager to jump to surgery when there isn't enough proof to show that it is actually less stressful on babies.

As I've heard many times from a L&D nurse, if it was an emergency CS why could it wait 4 hours until after the scheduled hysterectomy, lunch break, and scheduled CS? She has seen this happen a number of times with certain OB's she's worked with.

Birth rape is real, but usually only happens when a woman is delivered by a doctor in the hospital who she has either never seen before or has seen the least of all her doctors.

Which is why I choose midwives, I will NOT be delivered by someone I don't know (except in an emergency).

We are supposed to talk about all the contingencies with our doctors and plan our desires in certain emergencies, but it doesn't matter if the doctor who is in the delivery room has heard your name for the first time a few hours before. They don't know you, your desires, your fears, your needs and honestly in the heat of the moment they don't really care to find out, they just want the baby out and to move on.

So a mom who has been sexually assaulted and wants only the least amount personnel and only women may find herself with a male and 5 students with no energy or confidence to say anything and feel wholly violated at the end with no damage or risk to her physical health or her babies, but her psychological well being has been thrown down and trampled.



Birthing women are to often treated like they are merely the carrying case for a baby with no feeling or desires beyond the babies health, some women has sexual assault history, some have a terror of needles, some have a terror of being put under, some have conditions that make going under much trickier, some simply want as tranquil and peaceful an entrance into this harsh and painful world as possible for their little one.

It doesn't matter why mom wants a natural birth and puts a cs waaaaaaaaaay down the list of possibilities, the fact is we are so often treated like we have no say and should have no say. Yes in some situations a vaginal birth is more dangerous then a cs, but if the mom wants to try a vag birth first that is her choice, why is it that once a mom chooses to have the baby and not abort it does she suddenly become a criminal for wanting something that might not be the absolute 'safest' (or perhaps 'mainstream') way?

Kate CP - posted on 04/21/2012

"I am very much an advocate for a woman being an equal, active participant in her care. I am very much against anyone being steamrolled into compliance through fear, shame or force. However, I also know that sometimes a simple statement of fact, such as "The baby's heart rate is very concerning, and I therefore feel the need to do _____" is often misconstrued or twisted into the provider being manipulative or threatening, when, in reality, all they are doing is stating why they feel the need to do some undesired intervention. Kate, you're not wrong in saying that presentation is important, but the one thing the speaker cannot control is how their words are interpreted - or misinterpreted. On hundreds of occasions, I have watched a doctor or midwife calmly, kindly, and thoroughly explain something to a woman and her partner, only to hear those some words twisted into something not even remotely resembling what that provider said or did within seconds of them leaving the room. The fault was not in their presentation, tone, or choice of words; the fault lay in the listener's ability or desire to comprehend them accurately. "

Too true, Mary. When a person is already scared saying almost anything can tip them over. I don't know how many doctors or nurses have said something along the lines of "Your baby could die" or something along those lines...some how I think those actual words happen far less than imagined. I think another part of it is that a lot of women who have emergency sections (not ALL) feel guilty for not having the chance to birth naturally. And nobody likes feeling guilty about anything...so it's natural to want to pass the blame to some one else, some one "safe". I dunno, sometimes I think for doctors and nurses they see it every day, all day and it's almost normal for them. But for the mom it's a new experience and she doesn't know what could happen and she's terrified. Sometimes I think doctors forget how scared mom is. I know they're compassionate and want to help...I dunno. I may not be making a whole lot of sense right now. My brain is swimming in snot. :/

But basically, I agree with ya, Mary. ;)

Mary - posted on 04/21/2012

Vicki, I don't think it's quite as simple, nor as black and white, as you are trying to portray it. I absolutely agree that no one should ever " roll over and do whatever she is told" or should be "...shamed or penetrated against her will." However, I am pretty confident that the occurrences of that level of abuse and mistreatment are pretty fucking rare.



I also disagree with you assertion that a laboring woman is treated as if she no longer possesses "enough sense to make informed decisions", or treated as if her body is merely a vessel which carries the baby. It's just not that simple. While she most definitely should have say in what is done to her, the fact that she is not in a position to objectively look at the entire picture cannot be ignored either. Unless, of course, she is willing to accept the full responsibility of having her decisions and choices followed when they are in opposition to the opinion of her provider. (Meaning that she releases that provider from any liability if there is an undesirable outcome).



I am very much an advocate for a woman being an equal, active participant in her care. I am very much against anyone being steamrolled into compliance through fear, shame or force. However, I also know that sometimes a simple statement of fact, such as "The baby's heart rate is very concerning, and I therefore feel the need to do _____" is often misconstrued or twisted into the provider being manipulative or threatening, when, in reality, all they are doing is stating why they feel the need to do some undesired intervention. Kate, you're not wrong in saying that presentation is important, but the one thing the speaker cannot control is how their words are interpreted - or misinterpreted. On hundreds of occasions, I have watched a doctor or midwife calmly, kindly, and thoroughly explain something to a woman and her partner, only to hear those some words twisted into something not even remotely resembling what that provider said or did within seconds of them leaving the room. The fault was not in their presentation, tone, or choice of words; the fault lay in the listener's ability or desire to comprehend them accurately.

Lady Heather - posted on 04/21/2012

True Kate. I didn't find out there was anything wrong with my first birth until afterward. I think that was good. I probably would have panicked and that probably would have resulted in emergency c-section. Funny though - they vacuumed her out without asking me. My midwife approved it on my behalf. I was zoned out and there was no time to waste. So I guess I was penetrated without consent? I don't see it that way though. I'm really glad they didn't tell me.

Kate CP - posted on 04/21/2012

*sigh* You know, I used to be VERY anti-epidural and c-section and yadda yadda yadda...but I've learned something in my birthing years: childbirth is scary. It's scary if nothing goes wrong and it's scary if everything goes wrong. It's scary because you just don't know what will happen. And whatever a woman needs to do to make it through childbirth with the minimal amount of trauma is what should be done. Using phrases like "Your baby could die if we don't..." to try and guilt a woman into something is awful. She's scared enough as it is without people in position of authority (doctors and nurses) berating her. Instead of saying "Your baby could die..." something like "We need to help your baby out" or "We need to get his heart rate up" or "We need to find a better way to get fluids in you" is MUCH better. It's all about presentation, folks. The less terrified a woman is the easier birth and recovery will be. That's just a fact.

I used to believe that a purely natural birth was 100% the best possible way to deliver a baby for mom and baby...and I've learned it's just not true. Some women need to have an elective c-section because it's less scary to them and it makes the early days of motherhood so much easier. Women who undergo emergency c-sections, in my personal opinion, tend to have a much harder time of recovery because they have been stressed out to the point of bodily harm. Fearing for your life and the life of your baby is NOT good for your health.

Bottom line: this story may be blown WAY out of proportion but what this woman experienced made recovery really hard: she was scared. Terrified of what was happening while in the OR, not being told what was going on or told her baby could die, and waking up alone and in a strange place wasn't conducive to a recovery. Women should be allowed to birth however they want and IF the time comes that something needs to be done it should be approached as a method to help mom and baby. If mom refuses a fetal monitor and the doctors are really worried saying things like "Your baby could die if we don't do this!" is the wrong way to say it. Saying something like "We're worried because we can't get a good listen on his heartbeat and we want to make sure everything is going well" would help calm mom down and probably get the doctor the fetal monitor he or she wants. Like I said...it's all about presentation.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/21/2012

My bag of waters never broke on its own for my second, and it was trying to push out first. It was bubbling out, and each time I contracted you saw the midwives and nurses lean back afraid it would explode on them. It was kinda funny, and they explained to me that it was preventing me from pushing her out. They asked if it was ok if they popped it so it did not explode on them, and then it would be easier to push her out. Indeed, after I gave consent, I had her out in I want to say 2-3 pushes. I didn't even feel them pop it.

With my first, my water broke at home, and I was strapped to the bed. I was not allowed to get up and walk around.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/21/2012

Many things were done to me like Cathy explained. DURING the time they were doing it, not before. That was with my first, with doctors. When I delivered with my second, every single thing the midwives did was explained, and then asked if it was ok BEFORE they did a thing. And really that was a wicked fast labor. But I was much better informed. I was in the hospital in the delivery room at 8:15am and delivered at 9:06 am. With the first, I went in at 2am, and delivered by c section at 3:15 pm. There was no excuse with the first.

Vicki - posted on 04/21/2012

Ah no worries.



Sorry they did that to you :( Really hard to say yes/no/what are the options while you're in the middle of a contraction hey?

Cathy - posted on 04/21/2012

That response was meant for Mary as i'm aware that not every emergency has time for an in depth discussion with the mother. I agree that if there is no sign of distress in the infant or mother no action should be taking without consent.



I had my waters broken without consent. I was being given an internal exam and when I began a contraction the nurse announced she was going to break my waters to speed things up. It wasn't a moment where I could object and it was done before the contraction finished.

Vicki - posted on 04/21/2012

Thing is Cathy, it's not always when a baby is in distress, but often just for protocol or whatever. Recently a friend birthed twins in hospital. She was labouring with the midwifes in the bathroom when the ob told her she needed to get back to the bed for a vaginal examination. She refused. My friend is very well informed of her rights and educated about birth. Her labour was progressing normally, she was being cared for by two experienced midwives. The ob shouted at her, told her 'do you want your babies to die?' 'who will care for your other children if you die?'. All this over a VE that wasn't even needed!



She did not consent or move and was protected in her space, the ob left to get a more senior doc who was much more sensible. No rape in this particular story thankfully but there was unnecessary shaming and blaming. If she'd already been on her back on the bed (and I've heard this happening to other women) in all likelihood she would be told 'just going to do an examination now' swiftly followed by the hand up her vagina. Telling someone something is going to happen is not the same as asking.



Oh and my friend birthed her two bubs with no problems, first one breech, at 40+6, both around 3.5kgs. Just ending with that so you can read the end of the tale... 'cos it's awesome :)

Cathy - posted on 04/21/2012

Sometimes it might be as simple as telling a women that her child is in distress and may die if they do not take immediate action. That doesn't always happen. Sometimes the medical staff get caught up in the emergency of one and forget the mother, who is hearing a whole heap of medical mumbo jumbo with no clue what any of it means.



People do need to be realistic that things aren't going to always go to plan. But where possible they should be informed why.

Vicki - posted on 04/21/2012

Obviously mothers want their babies to be healthy. It doesn't mean that she should roll over and do whatever she is told. It doesn't mean that she should be shamed or penetrated against her will.



I don't think care providers start off their day with 'how many women can I screw with today'. It's more of an entrenched culture that assumes that once a labouring woman enters a hospital she no longer has enough sense to make informed decisions, that her body is the property of the people handling her, there are schedules to meet and boxes to tick. Her humanity is often left at the door and she is a body from which the baby must be extracted.



I don't believe for a second that everything that is done to women in hospitals is for the health of the baby and child. If they followed evidence based practice then there would be no routine inductions, episiotomies, vaginal examinations or continuous fetal monitoring.

Mary - posted on 04/21/2012

Vicki, one of the problems that I have with this blogger's opinion centers around this statement:



"In cases where the intent was not to punish or control the birthing woman in some way (which can and does happen) and the forced vaginal penetration was done out of what the perpetrator believed to be medical necessity or professional obligation, this still leaves us with the disturbing idea that a woman's bodily autonomy ceases to exist once she is carrying another life within her.

What a woman does or doesn't do with her body and what medical care she chooses to receive or not receive while in labour is still her business."



I do think that the intent behind the actions absolutely does have to be factored in when considering whether or not the use of the term "rape" is appropriate. Even the most ardent of natural birthing advocates want two things from their birthing experience: satisfaction from the experience itself and a healthy baby. The problem comes in when both of these goals cannot be simultaneously achieved; there are times when allowing for one negates the possibility of the other.



The other issue that this author conveniently ignores is the fact that care providers are held accountable by society for the outcomes of both mother and child. This is particularly true in the US, where lawsuits for less-than-perfect babies is rampant. A care provider who fails to intervene when there are indications of stress, even if doing so is abiding by the mother's wishes and choices, can and often will be sued up to 21 years later (by the mother herself or the child). I don't think that the majority of care providers are deliberately trampling over a woman's bodily autonomy in favor of her child just for the sheer power trip of it. They are not placing a higher value on the well-being of her child; they are doing their damnedest to meet her other desire that her child not be unnecessarily harmed by it's birth. They really cannot ignore the safety and well-being of that baby; as I said, in the US, that baby has up to 21 years to hold that care provider accountable for it's outcome from that birth.

Vicki - posted on 04/21/2012

*Sorry to do such a long post, but I couldn't find any bits in this article that weren't relevant to this discussion! I would have just linked http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2010... but wanted to make it easy for the non-clickers.*



Birth rape is not rape because: the intent was not likely malicious; you solicited the services of the midwife or doctor willingly; it is not sexual; it denigrates 'real' rape; you got a healthy baby at the end of it; you should have said 'No' more clearly; you should have been more educated; be glad you're alive -- women used to die in childbirth all the time, you know!; if you didn't want hands or instruments up your vagina, you shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place; it's for the well being of your baby; it was for your own good.



Those are just some of the claims made about birth rape in the last few days, by many of these articles' authors and readers alike. The consensus appears to be: you are making too big a deal of this and, p.s., stop whining. In some quarters, allusions to natural birth fanatics with unrealistic expectations, hell-bent on smearing the name of good doctors and midwives across the land, are rife with derision. There seems to be a popular idea that a fringe group of radicals who despise medicine and technology and think women should give birth alone in clover fields, with only the moon and stars to guide them, are working to further their birth rape 'movement' and inappropriately co-opt a word that is already taken and means something completely different.



Were these same arguments used when we first started hearing women say they were date raped or raped by their spouse or partner?



The crux of the argument against 'allowing' women to use this term is that while, of course, instances where mothers are abused or assaulted during birth are horrible and unacceptable, it was not 'RAPE rape' (thanks Whoopi!) and needs to have a less provocative name. Common suggestions for more suitable, society-approved names include 'medical assault', 'medical battery' and 'maternal abuse'. The message here seems to be: 'Call it anything you want, just don't call it rape, okay? Because it's not, even if it fits the definition and you, as the victim, have chosen to express what happened to you in these terms. WE will decide what is rape and what isn't.'



Perhaps this attitude is prevalent because there seems to be some confusion about what constitutes birth rape and what is just an unpleasant or uncomfortable birth. To reiterate a point made in my original article for The F-Word, birth rape is when an instrument or hand is inserted into a woman's vagina without permission, after which the woman feels violated. Discounting birth rape is discounting the possibility of being raped with an object or non-genital body part and in a context that is not sexual. As we all know, non-consensual penetration is most often not a quest for sexual pleasure but actually an effort to control, terrorise, humiliate, punish or oppress the victim(s).



In cases where the intent was not to punish or control the birthing woman in some way (which can and does happen) and the forced vaginal penetration was done out of what the perpetrator believed to be medical necessity or professional obligation, this still leaves us with the disturbing idea that a woman's bodily autonomy ceases to exist once she is carrying another life within her.

What a woman does or doesn't do with her body and what medical care she chooses to receive or not receive while in labour is still her business. She can and should make decisions for herself. The paternalism of the 'lie back and let the doctor do his job, now there's a good girl' mentality can be not only nauseatingly infantalising but a first tumble down the slippery slope of disempowerment and trauma that so many women experience during their births. Sticking something in a woman's vagina without her consent is no one's right, no matter their opinion on why it was necessary.



Our experiences and our voices cannot and should not be defined or silenced by those who think they know better, or more



Even where intent was not necessarily malicious (for example, when a man doesn't stop intercourse after a woman has objected, even if she initially consented), the resulting mental distress is virtually the same as rapes perpetrated with intent to harm. It does make me wonder: were these same arguments used when we first started hearing women say they were date raped or raped by their spouse or partner? What about when rape was extended to include penetration with an object or non-genital body part? Because I'm pretty sure that, then too, there were scores of people (even some anti-rape campaigners) rolling their eyes and stamping their feet when we first moved beyond the basic 'penis in vagina by stranger with force' definition of rape. There were undoubtedly some against calling these types of assault 'rape' because it diminished what they felt was The Most True And Horrific Rape Of All.



The thing is, It is not anyone's responsibility to make sure that people who have experienced a violation focused on their genitals for which they did not give consent use the term that other people are most comfortable with. There are, of course, women who use the term birth rape to describe traumatic labours that did not involve any abuse or unwanted vaginal penetration but where their wishes were ignored, they felt powerless and perhaps even duped into accepting certain interventions. Whilst one may not consider this birth rape in the strictest sense, that scores of women could have such horrendous births as to feel like rape victims speaks volumes about the state of maternity care in the UK, the US and other parts of the developed world. When a woman feels she wasn't given choices, wasn't in control of her own body and had little say in her care, she is more likely to consider her birth traumatic and reach for words to suitably express her suffering.



Claiming that birth rape is an inappropriate term and ridiculing or dismissing women who choose to use it is incredibly insulting to those who identify with it. Much like you wouldn't tell a woman who says she was raped while on a date with a guy she liked that she is exaggerating, that he probably didn't mean it, that it isn't 'real' rape if she went with him willingly or flirted with him, nor should women who feel they were raped while giving birth be disbelieved or discredited. Insisting that birth rape does not exist because it does not fit into one's culturally-ingrained notions about what defines rape shows an enormous disrespect for women's lives and how they choose to define the moments that shape them. If a woman says she was raped, listen to what she is saying and feeling instead of dissecting her experience, looking for ways in which she can be proved wrong. Her rape does not somehow lessen anyone else's, it only broadens what we previously believed to fall under that unfortunate, ugly umbrella of misogyny.



What I find nearly as tragic as birth rape itself is that so many feminists could ignore, dismiss or outright refute it. It is quite astonishing to see those who fight tooth and nail for a woman's right to choose abortion and who argue passionately for full bodily autonomy then turn around and say that a woman who chooses to carry a pregnancy to term should hand over the rights to her body for the sake of the baby. Mothers already often feel sidelined and marginalised by the mainstream feminist movement; when it ignores institutionalised violence against them at such a vulnerable and pivotal moment in their lives, the sting of discord is sharp.



To minimise birth rape is to minimise the profoundness of birth for many mothers and, in turn, to minimise women themselves. Our experiences and our voices cannot and should not be defined or silenced by those who think they know better, or more.



Telling women that birth rape is all in their heads is just another violation.

Cathy - posted on 04/21/2012

When actions are taken (where the mother is in a position to consent eg. concious and stable) without giving the mother at the very least an explanation or opportunity to voice a question then it is at the very least an assault on her bodily integrity.



When actions are taken (where the mother is in a position to consent eg. concious and stable) without giving the mother at the very least an explanation or opportunity to voice a question, and the mother demands they stop or requests information and is ignored then I consider that assault to be bordering on rape.



Just because a women is pregnant does not mean she loses all rights to HER body.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/21/2012

Little Miss---There is no other nice way to say this, but you come off as such a know it all. You are not.



That is your opinion. The fact is I have experienced a lot in my life. I have reflected much of my adulthood on my experiences. I am not a know it all, there is plenty I do not know. However, I do know calling a birth experience rape is indecent and disgraceful to everyone that has been raped.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/21/2012

Sally---meme, i have to say when i had my daughter(30years ago) i didn't question doctors because of what happened i not only had a cs, i was unable to even hold her, go to the loo, wash etc for over a week. 2 years later i had to have an op to sew my womb back where it belonged so i get the being scared,not knowing what to ask etc



Actually, I thought I was quite detailed in my experience with my daughter. I said I was scared shitless. I was 22, I had not asked anything. I had put myself into the doctor's and nurses hands. I was not made to feel the most comfortable, not at all. I only had a quick briefing of what was going on, no explanation of what was going on with my baby. I was put to sleep I think because they knew it was becoming traumatic for me. I was in full out tears, from fear. When I woke my daughter had already been born 2 hours earlier. So, I wasn't even there as soon as she was born. Am I going to blame someone for that? No. Why? They did what they felt was best. Even if I now do not think it was best the way they did it, they are the doctors, not me.



I didn't have a problem with holding her, since I only had to lie there and do this. As for walking? No, I could not walk for a few days. I couldn't shit for 8 days. I had to go back to the hospital for enima's twice! They would not let me eat which seemed like forever after. I had to call my Mom, which was living on the otherside of the Country. She called the nurses and told them to feed me!



It wasn't until I had my son that I was fully and completely educated on everything. I knew more than what the doctor was willing to tell me. Another thing I now realize is that not all doctors and staff are able to make each and every individual feel great about their experience. They have a job too. Some women are more emotional then others. How can you expect them to be able to deal at an emotional level adequate for every women? They have a job to do. They do c-sections hundreds of times a year. They do become desensitized on an individual basis. They can only follow routine and try to make each women comfortable and happy. However, I think you realize this is impossible. You just cannot please everyone.



Anyhow, yes, I know all too well what it is like to have a shitty birth experience. Would I call any of it rape? Never. I could sit here and say the doctors raped me of knowledge. They didn't fully explain anything. They just said, this is an emergency, we are going to put you to sleep, you will be having surgery. Sorry but I would have to say that was "robbed" of knowledge or a "traumatic" birth experience.



Litlle Miss--- Once again, you make it sound like "you get what you deserve". That is not only rude, but extremely insulting and insensitive.



Sorry but I feel the same way for you using the term rape in regards to a terrible birthing experience. You went to a hospital to have your child. You obviously trusted the doctors enough to allow them to do what was best. Now because you don't think they did what was best, you want to say you were raped. You just said, you are not a doctor and did not go to medical school but yet, you know enough now to say that they didn't do their job? One that was meant to get your baby out alive?



I find your use of a serious crime term "rape" very rude, insulting, offensive and insensitive to those of us that were not putting our faith into a person to do their job. We were forceably made to open our legs when we were saying NO. I do not believe you were yelling or even saying NO, if you were and they still proceeded, then I apologize (telling them you were feeling everything and give me more medicatio, is not the same as blantanly saying NO, STOP!). You have chosen that because you were not given all the detail and made to feel terribly uncomfortable, you were raped. To me it is not what rape is. Rape was a term created to define an unlawful, heinous, intruding, hurtful experience. It wasn't meant to be used lightly. To throw the term around and place it on a terrible birth experience, of which you were putting your trust into others, is wrong and extremly offensive to those that actually have been raped.



I am not saying you didn't have a traumatic experience. I am sure you did or you wouldn't be saying it. I just believe that it was a birth and you don't feel the best actions were performed. You feel they did not take your best interest to heart. That is NOT rape. Since, I am sure they feel they did what was needed to make sure your baby and you came out alive.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/20/2012

Thank you Sally. I appreciate your words.



SMH, give me a break MeMe "You cannot blame anyone else if you did not do these things. You see, I do not go in on blind faith but I do trust that once they have answered my extreme questioning that I must accept that they know what is best, in the end. Even if I do not like the choice. "



I am not a doctor, and did not go to medical school. I took birthing classes, discussed with my obgyn all the typical questions you ask going in, bla bla bla. You make it sound like anyone that does not research to the fullest gets what they deserve. I felt prepared going in. I was not. No amount of research would have prepared me for how I was handled. No amount of questions would have changed my outcome. I did not deserve how I was treated. No one in a similar situation deserves that. Once again, you make it sound like "you get what you deserve". That is not only rude, but extremely insulting and insensitive. You have officially turned me off of this thread. Bravo. Don't even bother commenting back. Seriously. I have no interest in any further explanation from you. There is no other nice way to say this, but you come off as such a know it all. You are not.

Sally - posted on 04/20/2012

meme, i have to say when i had my daughter(30years ago) i didn't question doctors because of what happened i not only had a cs, i was unable to even hold her, go to the loo, wash etc for over a week. 2 years later i had to have an op to sew my womb back where it belonged so i get the being scared,not knowing what to ask etc that LMCBW is talking about. I don't consider it rape though.

Sally - posted on 04/20/2012

LMCBW, im so sorry that you had such a bad time and im gald you shared. Im not putting you down or be-littling what you went through, its just that word i have problems with. I think id have thought twice about having more if id have gone through it.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/20/2012

Little Miss---MeMe, obviously you have blind faith in what doctors tell you. I did with my delivery, and realized how wrong that was.



I have blind faith in no one or nothing. I extensively tasked my doctor with providing me with every single bit of information I requested. I questioned each and every single nurse and doctor that came through my birthing room. Trust me. I accept no one's word.



However, when I am told my baby is in distress, yeah, sorry but I am going to believe them. I am not willing to take that chance and sit there and argue with them. Get my baby out, however, you feel is best. They wanted to try me on pitocine during my sons labour. I flat out refused. They said it may help me progress and may keep me from having to have another c-section. I really wanted a VBAC. They said uterine rupture was 1% (I already knew this, I had researched VBAC until no end). Sorry but that was enough for me to decline. They mentioned it a few more times. I told them it wasn't happening and to not ask again. That was the end of that. The only thing is I had already researched the shit out of having a VBAC and I had given my doctor the duty of providing all information to me, after I researched, so I would know what questions to ask and I could compare.



I am one of those people that when I bring my kids to get vaccinated I make them show me how much is in the needle and I make them fully explain what the vaccine is and how much my child is suppose to get. I make them double an triple check they measured correctly.



I am sorry if I came across as if I just go with the flow but I am actually way over the top with requiring all available information. Although, I still believe that if you choose to use a hospital to birth, you must realize that there are some things you will need to accept, it doesn't mean don't ask as many questions you need to feel comfortable but it does mean, saying how they wronged you was rape, is a poor choice of a term.



Since, it was fully your obligation to question the shit out of them and go in as educated as you could. You cannot blame anyone else if you did not do these things. You see, I do not go in on blind faith but I do trust that once they have answered my extreme questioning that I must accept that they know what is best, in the end. Even if I do not like the choice.



I wasn't educated with my daughter but I knew by the looks on their faces when they said it was an emergency c-section, that they were serious. My baby had the cord around her neck 2.5 times and was out of water. No matter how shitty I feel about not being able to experience a natural birth, my baby was the most important and I had to put my feelings aside.



Honestly, I feel ripped right the fuck off. Not only once but twice! Nothing I can do about that though. It is what it is, I can't change my body....

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/20/2012

It is all a matter of perception Sally. If your birthing experience was decent, you have no reason to feel otherwise.

Sally - posted on 04/20/2012

I like meme's term. Rape is such an ugly word. Rape leaves you with nothing but heartache, so i fail understand how you can use that term for birth ,where you have a beautiful baby at the end.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/20/2012

Oh and MeMe, I DID seek legal council, but my medical records were lacking. They could not prove anything.....even the fact that I was begging for more anesthesia and crying during the c section.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/20/2012

MeMe, obviously you have blind faith in what doctors tell you. I did with my delivery, and realized how wrong that was.

Thank you Janice.

I am glad most of you have not had the experience that I did....I have barely told you anything that happened. It was a horrible experience, and I almost did not have more children because of it. I came to this thread to attempt to shed some light on why women could and would consider some births a rape of the sense. I would rather everyone had happy deliveries with wonderful outcomes. I had a bad experience from the moment I walked in. The after care was decent, but only after I registered a complaint about my delivery nurse. Heck, if I had known you could refuse care from a particular person and get another nurse, maybe my experience would have been different. I will never know. BUT, I do know what it feels like to be in a terribly frightening situation where people just treat you like a number, and you mean nothing to them and don't feel it is necessary to be nice to you in the scariest moment of your life....then take away all of your decisions, and force you into an unnecessary surgery.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/20/2012

Janice---And Meme you may have been in the right frame of mind to immediately demand a lawyer, but not all women are able to get to that place so quickly.

No, I agree. Not all women can be as demanding and as big of a bitch as me. I was just saying what I would have done, if I woke up and found that I was druged without knowing and cut open without knowing. I dunno but from the OP, my perception is this woman waited a bit before deciding to decide that she was wronged.

Janice - posted on 04/20/2012

Wow Vicki, what you posted is scary.



I will have to agree with LMCBW on the fact that often doctors are too quick to do a c-section. I know when I was pregnant with my son and decided I wanted a VBAC I read tons of birth stories. There are definitely times when a c-section is recommended but not an emergency but woman in labor have a hard time getting whats really going on out of doctors. The point of a Doula is so that things like this don't happen. I read about one woman who was told her labor wasnt progressing and they wanted to do a c-section. Thankfully her midwife realized the baby was not in a great position and asked for just a little more time. She guided the mother and used movement techniques (as in mom moving) to get the baby to turn. Guess what the baby turned and she delivered vaginally 20 min. later.



To insist this woman was just selfish and a cry baby is wrong. This may be all fabricated, as I would like to believe but if its not her feelings are valid. If it was an emergency, wouldn't her husband be telling her so?



And Meme you may have been in the right frame of mind to immediately demand a lawyer, but not all women are able to get to that place so quickly.

Rebecca - posted on 04/20/2012

When I had my daughter, in ON, I was immediately send to a OBGYN. My GP did the first blood test, but everything else was done with the baby doc.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/20/2012

Here is the issue many have with the term birth rape. I tend to agree.



The problem with the "birth rape" rhetoric is that lumps clear-cut criminal offenses and blatant malpractice in with any intervention that the woman finds traumatic. It's an emotionally loaded term that invites the demonization of well-meaning doctors and nurses.



You see, birth experiences can often be perceived as wrong. However, it doesn't necessarily mean the doctor's or nurse's were wrong. I kinda believe that if you choose to have a baby in a hospital you are in turn putting your trust into them and are a willing participant in allowing them to do what they believe is best.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/20/2012

There are many words one can use to describe what happened. Like MeMe said early, to use "trauma". The first words that came out of my mouth the very first time recapping what happened was indeed rape.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/20/2012

Little Miss--I had my daughter in Alberta and my son in Nova Scotia. Both Provinces I had an OB GYN. My GP sent me to them for my pregnancies.

Like Krista all of my friends and family have had OB GYN's for their pregnancies. So, I am not sure where your friends had their's but it more than likely was not Alberta or Nova Scotia.

I too agree with the term "robbed" for a birthing experience that did not go as it perhaps should have.

Krista - posted on 04/20/2012

It is different true, but my experience was being raped of all natural consequences of a true birthing experience

Not to quibble semantics...but the way you're using the term, it almost sounds as though "robbed" would be a better term than "raped".


And MeMe, I also went to an Ob/Gyn right from the get-go and so have all of my friends and coworkers who have had babies.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/20/2012

I don't know which part of Canada you are from, but I have talked to several of my friends from Canada, and they did not see a OBGYN unless there was a problem.

CLEARLY I am not talking about sexual rape. Sorry to bring out the dictionary, but here we go:


Search Dictionary:



Email this page to a friend Houghton Mifflin
< Rapa Nui rape >

rape1 audio (rp) KEY

NOUN:

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.

TRANSITIVE VERB:
raped, rap·ing, rapes

To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
To seize and carry off by force.
To plunder or pillage.


I would be specifically talking about "Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice." concerning my experience.