Circumcision....

[deleted account] ( 216 moms have responded )

This thread WAS a discussion about how to talk to my husband about not circumcising our son (due July 17th) but thankfully, after flooding him with information and both the pros and cons of the argument, my husband has sided with me against circumcising our baby boy. My main argument for leaving him intact is that it should be his decision, and that I do not think we have the right to remove any part of him unnecessarily.



Now I'd like to turn this into a thread discussing the pros and cons of circumcision and to provide interested mothers with a wealth of information regarding the issue, so that they can make an informed decision if needed. Below are all the links that have been posted to this thread, by myself and others who have been involved with this topic. Feel free to browse and use these links to help with whatever is troubling you baby-penis-wise. ;)



Links to informative and mostly unbiased articles:

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news...

http://mgmbill.org/statistics.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/04/14/tee...

http://www.healthychildren.org/english/a...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forcible_re...

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/pregnan...

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/fa...

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/09/functions...

http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/second/ch...



Links to videos:

http://youtu.be/i1ZECchLIHo (a circ'ed father on his cut and uncut sons)

http://youtu.be/UAGNnqyNidY (warning, this video is graphic!)



Please let me know if one or more of these links do not work!

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Sammie - posted on 04/24/2012

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There is NO WAY a person truly researches circumcision, and still chooses to do it to their son. No way, i will never believe someone has truly researched the subject, and still chose to inflict this painful, damaging, risky procedure on their son.

True research shows that NO medical organization IN THE WORLD, recommends circumcision. It shows that circumcision is extremely painful and damaging. It removes THE most sensitive part of the penis, removing over 20,000 erogenous nerve endings (the clitoris only has about 8,000). Research shows that The foreskin has many functions, including protective and sexual ones. There are NO PROVEN benefits from circumcision. Circumcision is a risky procedure, causing MANY, MANY, men to have complications with their penises. Adhesions, tight, painful erections, hidden penis, meatal stenosis, skin bridges, and the list goes on and on.

Over 100 baby boys die needlessly every year from circumcision complications. ZERO babies die from being left intact.

So really, who would say, "Okay, my baby could die from this, there are no benefits from doing it, it's going to hurt him, it's going to take away a lot of pleasure from his adult sex life, but i'm doing it anyways".

Who would actually do this, someone who doesn't know all the facts, that's who.

Oh, and circumcision does not keep anyone from contracting HIV/STD's, Condoms/abstinence does.

[deleted account]

Ali, that is some definite misinformation there! The foreskin is not retractable at birth, so the idea that I'd have to clean underneath it all the time before he's five is completely false and I hope you don't tell everyone that because to forcibly retract the foreskin before it is detached from the head of the penis is very painful and NOT recommended!



And we've already made our decision, I'll edit the OP to show that we are NOT circumcising our baby boy. Also, the argument that it's "cleaner" is not valid imo, as I've already stated multiple times but I'm sure you haven't had the chance to read all the other comments and links to research that I and others have posted.

[deleted account]

My son was born perfect. I chose not to alter him from that perfection. The men in my family aren't. I never heard of any of them having a problem with it. The vast majority of men in human history haven't been and suffered no ill effects.



The cleanliness argument is bull. I had zero problems keeping my boy clean and he keeps himself clean now. I actually think that a very messy diaper would be horrific in a girl because of all the folds of skin and the vaginal opening, etc. When correct condom practices are used, the so-called reduction in stds becomes negligible.



If it would be 'traumatic' (as he called it) as an adult, that clearly means that there is something wrong with the practice.

Merry - posted on 04/25/2012

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Once a person has personal experience in circumcision, like a son who has had it, seen him go through it, seen him be fine, see it heal well, see him happy with his penis, etc, it's practically impossible to go against your previous choice. You'd essentially be saying you did wrong and when personally it all went well most people won't do that.

And also location makes a big difference. If you live where everyone is circumcising their boys it's quite likely that a person will go with the trend they see in their oersonal life instead of the world wide trend.



So correct me if I'm wrong Sherri, but from my understanding, Sherri circumcised her son just a bit ago because, she had three boys who have had simple uncomplicated circumcisions and all three feel they like the status of their penis, she knows many boys and men who are pro circ in her personal life, she knows one intact man who is pro circ, and she has a dr she trusts who has done a good job three times before and that thinks circ is beneficial.

Personal experiences often far outweigh anything one can read online.

If a person has no personal experience on a subject then online can be very convincing, but to go against what you've seen and heard and done for years is just not that likely.



If Sherri had went through a horrible complication, or had a few friends IRL who were adament intactivists, or even had a few men say they regret the circ, then she may have chosen differently. But that's not the case and I can't speak for her but this is what ive gotten from the many times we discuss this.

I don't agree with her choice in the slightest but I know she is a good mom and she only did it because she feels it was best for him.

Merry - posted on 04/24/2012

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So if the guy is just ashamed of the foreskin it's not covered, but if he has an infection or something then it would be covered right?

Shouldn't it be the same for all ages of males?

Like a newborn baby boy has no issue with his foreskin, it should be deemed cosmetic unless or until he has an issue with it.



And I really think that with proper care, ie leaving it alone, boys really don't get infections or phimosis much at all. The reason these are so prevalent in USA uncut boys is because people still think you should be pulling back the foreskin at X age.

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Betty - posted on 04/26/2012

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here is a funny story, my pediatrician who is from India, told me when I asked him about it, well most people want the son to look like dad!!!!!!! Now at the time I wasnt thinking, I wonder if this doctor is cirumcised, but now I KNOW he was feeding me what he knew friends and family would be telling me, he is a excellent doc, just knew that my ex hubby was hell bent on the idea and sided with him.

Betty - posted on 04/26/2012

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OMG somebody who has seen the light!! My fiance is baffled over the insurance companies in our country because in England where he is from, and most of the modern living world, people don't have to pray to the almighty insurance gods, they have a health care that covers the whole nation, you can still opt for private insurance, and its got its problems I am sure, but come on how many uncovered people are going without life needed medication and care because insurance companies and pharma, companies are making out like bandits!!!!

Sammie - posted on 04/25/2012

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Oh and btw, their daughter is not deaf. And i'm pretty glad she likes it that way.

Sammie - posted on 04/25/2012

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Yeah Laura, just like a friend i have, her daughter was born deaf and married a deaf man. When pregnant with their first child they so very badly wanted her to be born deaf too. They didn't know what they were missing, they were happy with what they knew and wanted it for their child also.

Merry - posted on 04/25/2012

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I agree with you to Sammie, and I do think many times men don't know what they're missing too! They adore their epnis cuz its theirs and it's the best one ever and they don't want to think it could have been better.

Sammie - posted on 04/25/2012

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I agree with you Laura, but the sad thing is, many circumcision complications don't show up until the boy/man is sexually active. And by that time the boy/man is not going to discuss his sex/penis problems with his parents. So sadly, many parents don't know that their sons are having problems due to circumcision.

[deleted account]

"insurance companies don't give a flip about health. if they did they'd be more affordable, says the person who can't afford the shit because a family of four costs $300 a month in my area, more than a damn car payment... "

Oh that's cheap! If you don't qualify for Healthy New York (state mandated policy) and have to buy a policy on it's own from my work, it's over $3500 a month for a family - yes, a month.

This is why the health care exchange in the Health Care REform is so important. It will force companies to offer cheaper alternatives as people can purchase policies across state lines.

[deleted account]

Yea...that makes my head hurt. I hate insurance companies. :/
-------------
I know Kate but that's what keeps me in Jamesons.

Especially for those days I get to tell someone with severe depression/anxiety that their medication isn't covered

Sammie - posted on 04/25/2012

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I can't imagine knowing all the facts about circumcision, and still choosing to do it. Why?? Is it really that important for a boys penis to match his dads (which it isn't going to anyways)?



Yeah Jaime, i know, it is mind boggling. I don't see how anyone could watch a video of a circumcision being done, and choose to put their child through that. Just so his penis will "match" his dads. I just don't get it, and i probably never will.

Before i researched circumcision, i would have circumcised any boy i had too. I am ever so thankful that i researched it before i had my son.

[deleted account]

my state's insurance policies are stupid, we make too much for medicaid but not enough to get insurance for our family. and even then it doesn't pay for much. but yes, we are off-topic...

Janice - posted on 04/24/2012

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We are off topic but medicaid is good insurance.

If our kids were thru my hubby it would be 104$ per week plus co-pays for everything. But my babies gets medicaid/low-cost state insurance it is the same insurance but there are no co-pays and they get dental!

Sherri - posted on 04/24/2012

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@Jaime your lucky just for my husband and I costs us $100 a wk and we can't even afford to add the kids so they are on medicaid.

[deleted account]

insurance companies don't give a flip about health. if they did they'd be more affordable, says the person who can't afford the shit because a family of four costs $300 a month in my area, more than a damn car payment...

[deleted account]

@Sammie, see, that's what I don't understand, people actually research this but they still choose to do what's more harmful to their child because "daddy has it" or a 2000 year-old book says to or some other superficial reason like that. I think that just about sums up the only reasons I can think of for circumcising a baby, because the medical benefits of leaving a boy intact far outweigh the possible problems in my opinion.

Sherri - posted on 04/24/2012

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@Sammie I did know every bit of that and still chose to circumcise everyone of my 4 boys, the last one being 9wks ago.

@Kate never said it made sense but yes they will cover a newborn and consider it routine or preventative care but from what I understand from this thread they won't cover it for an adult unless it is medical?? Yup total double standard.

Janice - posted on 04/24/2012

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Unfortunately, here in the US it the norm to be circumcised so many Americans see circumcised penises as attractive because that is the norm.



Concerning the insurance coverage - dont you know that nothing makes any sense here in the US ;)

Kate CP - posted on 04/24/2012

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"I have no idea if they do or don't Kate. Right now they don't have medical insurance and the cost is way out of their means right now. They literally live pay check to pay check so I imagine it is a lack of insurance thing and a lack of funds of pocket thing."

Well, in another thread (or this one, can't remember) you said that all insurance companies in the US covered routine infant circumcision. So, if they cover infant circumcision for no medical reason, why wouldn't they cover ADULT circumcision for no medical reason?

And if they had their son circumcised (your friend) and it was covered by insurance then why wouldn't his insurance cover the dad? I'm confused.

Krista - posted on 04/24/2012

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So if the guy is just ashamed of the foreskin it's not covered, but if he has an infection or something then it would be covered right?
Shouldn't it be the same for all ages of males?
Like a newborn baby boy has no issue with his foreskin, it should be deemed cosmetic unless or until he has an issue with it.


That sounds perfect to me. With the exception of reconstruction, I don't believe any insurance companies will pay for cosmetic surgeries. So why pay for cosmetic circumcisions?

Chloe - posted on 04/24/2012

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I still don't see how a circumcision would be deemed cosmetic. It looks better when it's left alone! When cut there's a scar and the head dries out and there can be too little skin left which can cause a bend or too much skin left that could cause adhesions or whatever.
Seems to me that the cosmetic answer is to let the skin stay where it was put to keep the head safe.

I see how deeming it cosmetic would help reduce rates but in reality it seems opposite cosmetic as it harms the appearance.

[deleted account]

So if the guy is just ashamed of the foreskin it's not covered, but if he has an infection or something then it would be covered right?
Shouldn't it be the same for all ages of males?
Like a newborn baby boy has no issue with his foreskin, it should be deemed cosmetic unless or until he has an issue with it.
-----

No disagreement from me on that.

[deleted account]

Oh I can answer this one at least on behalf of my employer. Adult male circumcision requires prior approval as it can be considered medically necessary or cosmetic. Cosmetic is not covered. A good comparison is varicose vein treatment - could be medical, could be cosmetic.

Sherri - posted on 04/23/2012

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I have no idea if they do or don't Kate. Right now they don't have medical insurance and the cost is way out of their means right now. They literally live pay check to pay check so I imagine it is a lack of insurance thing and a lack of funds of pocket thing.

Kate CP - posted on 04/23/2012

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How come insurance will cover infant circumcision as a cosmetic procedure but not adult circumcision as a cosmetic procedure? That doesn't make sense...

Krista - posted on 04/23/2012

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@Krista I answered your question in my post. "Now why he doesn't just do it now I am not sure since he feels so strongly about it. "

You said you're guessing it had to do with insurance issues. I don't know...I'm just thinking that if he was so psychologically tormented by having a foreskin, then what's stopping him from going to a doctor and getting it done. Even if his insurance doesn't cover it, from what I've seen, the procedure would run about $1000. That's not that expensive, in the grand scheme of things.

Merry - posted on 04/23/2012

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And it only takes a minute to google foreskin restoration to realize there's a TON of products out there to help men restore their foreskin so obviously there's a big enough group of men who wish they weren't cut.

It's a lot easier to get cut later if you wish then it is to restore.

Kate CP - posted on 04/23/2012

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I've seen photos of a circumcised erect penis and an uncut erect penis and I have to say that the uncut one looks so much healthier and looks like it would be more pleasurable. I love my husband's penis, don't get me wrong...but I think I'd have lots of fun with an intact one, too.

Sherri - posted on 04/23/2012

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@Janice he was absolutely tormented I guess emotionally, nothing medical.

@Krista I answered your question in my post. "Now why he doesn't just do it now I am not sure since he feels so strongly about it. "

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/23/2012

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Oh come on now... I know MORE men that have not been circumcised than have been. Not one of them, NONE, complain that they still have their foreskin. My husband being one of them. That's just crazy talk, to say men that aren't will hate it, be pissed or regret.

However, it is not common practice in the Maritimes of Canada. It is even less common in NFLD. The province is actually often referred to as the foreskin of Canada. lol

Krista - posted on 04/23/2012

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So Sherri, why wouldn't he get it done as an adult, if he hates it so much?

Besides, I would say that your friend is definitely in the minority. A lot of pro-circ people seem to think that an uncut penis is a ticking time bomb -- that the guy is pretty much destined to have infections and issues with it.

If that were the case, then wouldn't you think that circumcision would be more popular on a global scale? That men would be having it done themselves, and would make sure that their sons were circumcised, so as to avoid all of this trouble?

But that's not the actual case.

Circumcision is NOT popular on a global scale. There are entire continents where very few men are circumcised, and where they do not circumcise their kids.

So it really bothers me that a lot of pro-circ people act and talk as though an intact penis is guaranteed to wind up infected, because that's a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

Janice - posted on 04/23/2012

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I completely get that as a male, if every other male you knew was circumcised you would want that too. So I do get what you are saying Sherri.

However, circumcision at birth is almost never best from a physical standpoint. I wish my son was still intact and that I did not let my hubby decide. He decided based on appearance and the old myth that it is easier to take care of.



Sherri, you dont say why your friend was unhappy. Was it emotionally difficult to be different? Or did he have medical issues? If he had medical issues he may be one of the few that could have benefited from circumcision.



It has been the norm in the US to perpetuate the idea that most uncut males have issues. However, this is plain and simple not true. How silly is it that we are continuing an outdated medical practice despite new info.

Merry - posted on 04/23/2012

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Well he's entitled to his opinion for sure but it's not the common one that I've heard. Most intact men would never allow their sons to be cut.

If your friend was teased its a real shame, but perminently altering your baby's penis due to your own teasing just doesn't sit well with me.

I'd hope my sons aren't showing anyone their penises til they're adults anyways, and if a boy is teasing my son about his penis then I'd want my son to turn the tables and tell him to knock it off and quit looking at my penis.

Idk, peer pressure to me is an invalid reason to do cosmetic surgery on a private part.

I mean the face? Maybe. But a penis is hidden and covered.

If you're having sex with girls who tease you then maybe don't have sex in highschool.

My point is the foreskin is a functioning useful beneficial piece of a boy and man. And to remove it takes away a part of that child that he can't really get back.

Sherri - posted on 04/23/2012

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@Laura I have a friend that is intact and asked why he circumcised his son (whom I know was done since I used to change his diapers), He said I would never subject my son to what I went through as a kid. My parents did the worst thing ever by not having me circumcised and I hate it everyday. My son wasn't going to go through that. Now why he doesn't just do it now I am not sure since he feels so strongly about it.

So you can't always say they wouldn't opt to at as a teen because if my friend Rich had his choice he so would have had it done as a teen. However, no one would listen to him and let him get it done. Then after that I am guessing it had to do with insurance issues.

[deleted account]

I don't agree with piercing babies' ears either (totally cosmetic and completely ridiculous) but that's an entirely different subject. It's just as irritating to me, too.

Merry - posted on 04/22/2012

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If you've never seen an intact penis then your opinion would likely be biased. Sort of if you've never tried chocolate ice cream you can't know you won't prefer it.



I promise you, if you went to any intact teen agee and asked him if he'd lie his foreskin removed hed say heck no! And if he said yes? Then he could do it himself in a few years haha.



My husband never regretted his circumcision til he was 24 years old!

Betty - posted on 04/21/2012

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I am over 40 and my fiance is from England where this mutilation is unheard of. I believe it is a religious based belief, that got tangled in the misconception somwhere down the years that it would stay cleaner if it were cut off....and I didn't want to put holes in my daughters body without her permission ...she must have been over 8 not 5 because all the other girls had it done...and she begged..I cant see your son at 8 yrs old begging to cut his forskin off.

Betty - posted on 04/21/2012

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my sons were given a numbing agent also..just curious..did anyone stay with thier child while the proceedure was being done...this was a agonizing proceedure that mutilates the penis and the thought that I mutilated my child without his permission as an adult haunts me.

Sherri - posted on 04/21/2012

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My son's all of them were given a numbing agent so they didn't feel anything and never cried. So no they never felt any pain. I had an amazing OB and has been my OB for the past 15yrs and I trusted him with my life and that of my children. I knew he was so very kind and would never have hurt my children, he made 100% sure that they were treated kindly and I knew he would make sure they were in no pain.

It is also still highly preformed here and in my state 76% of all newborn males are still circumcised. I am 40 and never have I ever seen (I have been in childcare for the last 20yrs) a male child not circumcised. Plain and simple my husband and I made an educated decision and did what we felt was best for my 4 boys 15, 13, 5 and newborn. All of my friends and my sister who have moved out of state and moved to states that have lower circumcision rates have still circumcised their boys as well. You don't know how many times I have been asked if we had it performed from so many people and they have all breathed a sigh of relief when we without hesitation said yes.

I also would if I had a girl have had her ears pierced as an infant as well.

[deleted account]

i will never see how circumcision is "the best option" when it's completely unnecessary. let's cut off our ears because we get ear infections, our lips because we get cavities and other oral ailments. let's just remove some random organ because there is a slight risk for cancer in that part of our body. that all sounds stupid, right? exactly.



and as i said before, i really don't see how a guy would have any reason to be pissed at his parents for not having him circumcised if he was never taught there was a stigma about it or that it was gross and he was taught and performed proper hygiene. and even if he still was pissed, go get circumcised and take it like a baby! there's no way he'd absolutely know he wasn't okay with being intact if he hadn't been that way since day one.

Betty - posted on 04/21/2012

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they may have been pissed at you but they will never get the chance to have the choice..mine either...sadly..and I wouldn't pierce my daughters ears till she was 5!!!

Betty - posted on 04/21/2012

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my son screamed when he had it done...yes it was painful ...if you dont believe me go cut off the 1/4 top part of your left pinky finger and see if it hurts. Its skin it has nerve endings which convey messages to the brain that the area is being injured....yes, it did hurt him.

Sherri - posted on 04/21/2012

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I researched it and I still opted that it was the best option. I have 4 children from 15 to newborn and everyone is circumcised. I have no regrets and my 2 oldest told me they would have been pissed at me if they weren't done.

Betty - posted on 04/21/2012

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Is it cosmetic tho? Is it more attractive then uncircumcised? Why would we cut off the head of the penis to make it nicer to look at? LOL then I think my insurance should pay for my eye lift....

Betty - posted on 04/21/2012

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Exactly!! its supposed to be there...if we started circumcising our daughters (yes some countries do this) then everyone would be having fits....its protecting the penis head. Unless its a medical need (i had some family members that needed this for whatever medical reason) I think it should be left alone, my first son had the plasti bell put on afterward, and by the time it fell off he looked perfect? my second son had to have a surgeon do his and there were stitches, no neat plastibell and it was traumatic for my son my ex husband and myself. On the way home we both agreed if we had realized how extreme it was we wouldnt have done it. THEN I researched it and had regrets. I hope other moms will research this unneeded proceedure unlike I did, this is one mistake I cant fix.

Chloe - posted on 04/21/2012

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I never understood the hype about circumcision. A foreskin isn't a birth defect, it's there to protect the penis, so why cut it off?
Makes no freakin sense. I have four intact boys and an intact husband. Never seen an infection outta the five of them! Yet my ten yr old girl has had two and ive had maybe four I can remember. Yet you don't see us cutting girls now do ya?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/21/2012

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My friend that just had her son circumcised in Canada, got it done for free. No medical reasons. I think it depends on the doctor. They don't all charge. That being said, I think they should. ;)

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