Corporal punishment for adults

Charlie - posted on 03/30/2011 ( 48 moms have responded )

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This debate shares something with Corporal Punishment (for Children), namely whether the infliction of physical pain can ever be justifiable. Countries (such as Nigeria, Malaysia, Brunei, Saudi Arabia or Singapore) have retained flogging or whipping as a punishment long after other countries have declared it a violation of human rights; in more severe examples, fundamentalist Islamic countries have seen dismemberment used as a sentence. On the other hand, in many countries where such beatings is outlawed (e.g. the UK or Australia), a perceived lack of success in crime reduction has resulted in a significant support for its reintroduction.

Criminals must be punished, and any form of punishment recognises the fact that on committing criminal acts they surrender some of their rights as humans. Why, logically, is corporal punishment any more of an infringement of these rights than prison?

Most of you know I am against corporal punsihment but do you think there is a difference between adult and child ?

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Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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Yes, Julianne. Some stuff is absolute. You're getting philosophical. I'm talking about a man who videotaped himself cutting off his sister-in-law's breasts and raping her.

This isn't the Matrix. Some stuff is rock-solid and real. And in some cases, what's rock-solid and real is proof of a person's actions.

And I can see where you're coming from with your thought that anybody who would do such things obviously has something that is seriously broken mentally. However, are we to not then hold any of those people responsible for their heinous deeds, claiming that they just couldn't help it? Sorry, but that just doesn't wash with me.

Caitlin - posted on 03/31/2011

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Mary - it's not capital punishment we are debating here, it's corporal punishment..

ME - posted on 03/31/2011

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I do not believe in the death penalty. I does nothing to deter crime, it is handed down in a racist and classist manner (ie, more often to poor people and minorities even tho their white/wealthy counterparts commit the same crimes), it is foolish to teach that killing people for killing people is okay and dubious to consider it "justice."

Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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Besides, i didnt say the court system would need to prove they did such things based on their own free will, just that it is impossible to prove a single individual to be guilty of any crime.

And I contend that it is absolutely NOT impossible to prove a single individual to be guilty of any crime. And I gave an excellent example of that.

Sorry, but I just think that your assertion that it's impossible to prove guilt is absurd. Are there cases where the evidence has been shoddy? Absolutely.

But there have also been some seriously cut-and-dry cases of guilt.

I agree that we should not use capital punishment, just because I do not feel that the state should have the right to decide when a person's life should end.

However, corporal punishment and capital punishment are two completely separate animals.

Caitlin - posted on 03/31/2011

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I was abused as a child and I turned out just fine thanks.. Unless it's severe form of torture to a child - it shouldn't screw them up, and it's no excuse in my mind to commit crimes.. I never see a murderer and say, "oh, what a poor kid, he must have had such a hard childhood." Suck it up, a lot of people had shitty childhoods, a lot of people had it SOOOO much worse off than us so quit the damn pity party. These "people" (espeically in the case of violent crimes) do not DESERVE a place in our society, let alone our dollar for rehabilitation.. What a load of bull..



**Edit: Just to clarify, I believe rehab does work for petty crimes in some cases, but in case of anything considered a felony? Not so much.. It's one thing getting caught shoplifting some food because you're down on your luck and you kids need something to eat (not sayin it's okay of course), but a complete other thing to lets say steal cars and sell them for parts to make the cash to buy food.. There are different levels of crime which need different types of punishment.

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[deleted account]

Angela
Canada and America in comparison.
Canada has an overall lower crime rate. America has more than DOUBLE the crime. Three times the amount of murders. Canada does not have the death penalty. Over all Canadas punishments are less sever. The key factor would be Americans can carry guns around.
Statistically compared to other countries as well....harsh punishments does NOT mean less crime.

Angela - posted on 04/02/2011

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Why is it that the criminal has more rights than the victim? I think the punishment should fit the crime. If your ok with taking anothers life then why should you be trated differently? The punishment is usually not harsh enough to deter people from following the rules. Some of those other countries may have harsh punishments but because of that they also have less crime.

[deleted account]

Protect a criminals rights? Out of curiosity are we corporally punishing rapists and murderers? Meh I am a believe in the death penalty, but yes, only when beyond a doubt that it is them that did it. Do they deserve ANY bit of pity or rights? HELL NO. They discarded their rights the moment they harmed another.



But on another note, countries like Singapore, have rules like if you litter, spit in public, it is a $10,000 fine. Drastic, but it works. And they have banned gum in Singapore. Gum isn't something that you will die without, I thought it was brilliant but a little difficult to bring into other countries as a rule. Also, I heard that there is a country where if you commit a crime that you lose your left hand? Or something? This is a country where they don't use toilet paper so they have to eat and clean themselves with the same hand (yuck!) But really. How many people do you see walking around with one hand? (Even if you do see people with one hand, how many lost it because of a crime?) Not many in New Zealand anyway. It obviously works. I think that OTT punishments would work better because people would be afraid of it more. Rather than a smack on the wrist so they could go back to their crime filled ways. *Shrugs* I dunno. Death for a death in my honest opinion.



Edit: If people don't want to be punished "corporally" then don't do the bloody crime. If it's difficult to follow the rules, then they should suffer the consequences. If you were told that you would lose a hand if you stole candy from a store, I think people would think twice. And don't even get me started on under-age crimes. I:

Becky - posted on 04/01/2011

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Meh, I think that people who torture children should have the same thing done to them. See how they like it.
Okay, maybe not really, but that is my first instinct when I hear about horrendous cases of child abuse. Yes, I know most abusers were abused themselves. But we all have choices. There are plenty of people who had horrible things happen to them who chose to turn it around. The whole, "I was abused so it's not my fault that I killed someone" argument doesn't wash with me.
Now, I do believe that extreme abuse and lack of any attachment to a significant adult can turn a person into a psychopath or sociopath, and that's different. However, should they get off because of that? Hell no! A psychopath or sociopath cannot be rehabilitated. They need to be locked up for life, because if they get out, they will rape/kill again.
To answer the original question, no, I don't think there is any difference between corporal punishment for a child or adult, except that an adult can understand why they are receiving it and a young child often can't. I don't think it's right for either one.

Alexis - posted on 04/01/2011

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Julianne, your comment about rehabilitation and how putting them in jail makes a problem worse, I saw a documentary on solitary confinement in prisons and it was eye opening. It is hard though, because not everybody can be rehabilitated, but yes I do agree we should try. I also understand that many times they come from messed up backgrounds and have gone through a lot themselves, but at what point do you say they cant be rehabilitated? Then what do you do with them? Just keep them locked up for life?

[deleted account]

Krista, i never said let all criminals walk. I said if we prove beyond a reasonable doubt they did it, then they should be held responsible. I just feel that if the system was set up differently, if people who had to go to prison were provided with therapy, anger management and other forms of rehabilitation. When released they would be less likely to commit crimes again. Throwing people in jail so they can be beaten humiliated and who knows what else is not going to help anything. Positive discipline is what i believe should happen. Not cruel punishment. Being mentally ill is not an excuse for doing unspeakable things. It is however key in fixing the problem in some cases. Some people are too fucked up to fix though....but they still shouldnt be tortured.

ME - posted on 04/01/2011

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What about the rights of those who are innocent of the crimes they are in prison for?

Stifler's - posted on 03/31/2011

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Meh. Bring back the stocks. I couldn't care less about criminals rights, especially people who rape people.

[deleted account]

Anyone who could commit rape, molestation, murder, or other violent acts suffer from some kind of mental illness. If they were not mentally ill they would not commit such crimes. Even if someone lead a perfectly normal life, if they do these things they are mentally ill.
It is physically impossible to prove or disprove ANYTHING. Nothing is absolute.

ME - posted on 03/31/2011

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I understand...in the states, Capital Punishment is the only form of corporal punishment applied to adults. I am also against whipping and beating them, removing fingers, fingernails or any other type of torture. I guess that I have trouble seeing what there is to debate...Treating human beings, no matter what they have done, like they are animals makes us worse than them; we, after all, know better!

Lacye - posted on 03/31/2011

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Juilianne, How do you explain people like Ted Bundy? He had a "normal" childhood. He was not abused, he grew up in a loving family, and he had nothing wrong with him. Yet he went and raped and murder many many women and one of them was a young girl. It was proven beyond a doubt that it was him. Are you saying he didn't deserve the death penalty? He had no excuse for what he did. He couldn't go and say that he was abused because he wasn't.

Charlie - posted on 03/31/2011

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Exactly , that is why there are different sentances for those who are truely beyond disturbed and have mental illness.

Caitlin - posted on 03/31/2011

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The issue with having one criminal claim that he had a horrible childhood that made him commit these crimes is that if he gets "special treatment" it becomes a precedent, and in legal standing then ANY lawyer worth his degree is going to argue that their client has been scarred by their "traumatic" childhood and find some bullshit "expert witness" to explain in psycho babble why the time he spilt the milk and got yelled at and sent to his room without dinner sent him onto a violent crime streak 20 years down the line.. Gimme a break. That's why they have institutions for those TRULY distrubed people with documented issues like schizophrenia (sp?) and others...

Charlie - posted on 03/31/2011

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People are proven guilty beyond doubt ALL THE TIME .

Like Krista said there are times when people have been wrongly convicted and I AM oppossed to capital punishment but to say it is impossible to prove a persons guilt is ridiculous .

And also I am sorry , I do sympathise with people who grow up in terrible situations and yes they need help but in the event of their breaking the law they also need to be held accountable and the victem needs some sort of justice , another point is not ALL murderers or criminals have mental illness to fall back on so that can't be everyones excuse .

[deleted account]

Oh ok, so lets just murder them all because they suffer from a sever mental issue. Lets lock people up and throw away the key because they were severely tortured as children which makes them develop into defected human beings instead of fixing the problem...That is much more humane and civilized....lets stoop to their level for some sick justification.

[deleted account]

If a person is held at gunpoint and forced to do something horrible, they are just as much a victim. It actually makes the crime worse because they too suffer. Besides, i didnt say the court system would need to prove they did such things based on their own free will, just that it is impossible to prove a single individual to be guilty of any crime.

Most criminals statistically have a history of sexual/physical or emotional abuse as children. In order to commit such acts, they are corrupted and distorted from their natural selves.They are abused to the point they loose all moral value.

Imprisonment should be used to 1. Protect society from these broken individuals and 2. Rehabilitate these people so they to can become functioning members of society. They should not be tortured or killed. If anything, if someone spends 10 years in jail being tortured for committing a crime...it will just make their problem worse.

Lacye - posted on 03/31/2011

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Nope. There is no difference between a child getting it and an adult. Personally, I wouldn't care if minor crimes were punishable with a couple of pops. LOL.

Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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I see what you're saying, Julianne. There HAVE been cases where innocent people have been sent to jail. And had capital punishment been in place, it would have been a real tragedy -- the state executing an innocent person. This IS something that has occurred in the past in our society.

However, I'm still not quite with you on the whole "you have to prove they did it of their own free will" argument. In those horrific cases, like your Bernardo/Holmolka, or your Clifford Olsen, or your Jeffrey Dahmer...why should their free will even be a factor? The fact remains that they committed these horrific acts. If a gun had been held to their head the entire time, would that make their acts any less heinous? And how do you even prove that someone was NOT coerced? You can't prove a negative. So you could have Jeffrey Dahmer up there saying, "I had to do what I did, because some unidentified person said he was going to set off nukes in London and New York if I didn't."

Jessica - posted on 03/31/2011

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This is alittle off topic but I'm curious about something. Julianne the responses you have posted seem to say that you really don't think anyone should be punished for anything at all because they MIGHT be innocent...and that even if there was a confession, it MIGHT be cohersed...So do you think that everyone should just get off because they MIGHT be innocent? Whats the point of a justice system at all then? I think Id rather take the horrible chance that there might be an innocent person in jail, over the idea that all the hard ass murderers and rapists who might be innocent are out on the streets...

[deleted account]

I think people should be punished if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt it was they that did it, but still protect their rights to a certian degree because they may very well be innocent.

Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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Please tell me that you don't think that criminals should be exempt from punishment if you can't conclusively prove that they weren't coerced. Because at that point, you're basically suggesting that people are not solely responsible for their own actions.

Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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Sentence them to community service scrubbing graffiti and picking up trash in birght pink jumpsuits with I'm a douchebag written on em.. THAT would be funny..

Please run for office.

[deleted account]

Video tapes only prove they committed the act. You still need to prove they did it on their own free will.

Lady Heather - posted on 03/31/2011

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Fully agree with Caitlin. I'm not into the violent stuff, but humiliation is awesome for stupid crimes like vandalism and crap. Douchebag jumpsuits = WIN.

Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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HOWEVER, proving it was them who committed the crime...no matter how much evidence points to them...is impossible.

Not always, Julianne. Heck, Paul Bernardo and Karla Holmolka videotaped what they were doing to those poor girls. Unfortunately, the videotapes were only found after Holmolka had already accepted her plea bargain. But do you really think that there's even the tiniest shred of doubt that she committed those horrific acts?

[deleted account]

in the extreme cases where the criminal has done unthinkable acts, like extreme torture of another person, rape, serial killers, etc...then I don't believe the criminal has any rights at all and corporal punishment is ok....

That i halfway agree with, because those crimes are so horrible that anyone who commits them should suffer because of what they did. HOWEVER, proving it was them who committed the crime...no matter how much evidence points to them...is impossible. What gives any group of people the right to punish someone for something they may have done.

Caitlin - posted on 03/31/2011

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Meh - bring back the stocks....

In reality I think it's all wrong, but i'm saving up my rotten eggs and tomatoes for the day the stocks come back.. public humiliation is great! Sentence them to community service scrubbing graffiti and picking up trash in birght pink jumpsuits with I'm a douchebag written on em.. THAT would be funny..

Alexis - posted on 03/31/2011

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In most cases I agree, no need for corporal punishment, however in the extreme cases where the criminal has done unthinkable acts, like extreme torture of another person, rape, serial killers, etc...then I don't believe the criminal has any rights at all and corporal punishment is ok....it is a slippery slope though, because what one person thinks as an normal crime another may view as an extreme and impose corporal punishment. Most crimes however do not need corporal punishment but if it is allowed I am sure it would take over as the normal way of punishing a criminal. I am also a huge advocate of the death penalty in violent crimes, such as serial killers, however I am also torn because there quite a few individuals that have been found guilty of crimes like this but then years later they find out that they were innocent the whole time. I guess in a perfect world criminals would pay with a punishment equal to their crimes, however if it was a perfect world we wouldnt have criminals.

Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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Would you believe that there are several online forum threads dedicated to the very topic of determining the adjective form of the noun "asshole"?

"Assholish" may not be a word, but it appears to be the most popular option.

We are soooooo off-topic, aren't we?

Krista - posted on 03/31/2011

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I am against violent or harmful corporal punishment for anybody.

However, I will admit that I've had moments where I could see the appeal of non-violent corporal punishment. Up in New Brunswick, a war memorial was vandalized and destroyed. For stupid, disrespectful, assholish crimes like that, sending the perpetrators to jail would only put them among people who would bring them deeper into crime. When I heard about that war memorial being destroyed, I will admit that a little part of me wished that they would bring back the stocks, so that the people who did it could be publicly shamed, even just for a day.

I know. It's cruel and unusual punishment. But I get so irked at these assholes who have absolutely no respect for anybody or anything else, and are never made to face any meaningful consequences for their actions.

Louise - posted on 03/31/2011

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The reason that crime rates are lower in these countries are because they do not have the police force as the uk has. You do not hear of the Nigerian CID or FBI do you because it does not exsist! Stealing is punishable by chopping off your hand I think this is a huge insentive in these countries not to do it. Also stoneing women and men that have been committing adultery is still very popular in these countries. It is barbaric but the people who have grown up in these countries know the laws and live by them. Just because it is not part of the western culture does not mean it is wrong.

Personally I think it is wrong to use punishment like this on any human being but who am I to say that every body has to live by my standards!

[deleted account]

Its wrong. Their is no possible way to prove any individual is guilty of any crime unless they tell you, even then a possibility exists they are lying. People are turned loose from jail all the time because of a wrong conviction. All evidence could point at the person and they could still be innocent. What gives anyone the right to condemn someone for something they may not have done. Who are we to pass judgment on others , then violate their rights in the name of good. Its the biggest form of hypocrisy i know of. Lets kill this guy because he may or may not have killed this person....we all know two wrongs make a right....right?

Nikki - posted on 03/30/2011

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No difference in my opinion, they are both human rights violations. Which is why I feel so strongly about de legalising smacking for children. Every person in this world should have the right to feel safe from physical punishment, this is not the case sadly.

Of course there has to be consequences to breaking the law, I feel that jail is sufficient, sentencing lengths however are generally not, but that's a whole other debate.

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