Culture Crisis vs Health Care Crisis

Dana - posted on 09/21/2010

I fully agree Sara BUT, I don't agree that it's too simple to say "if you can't afford it, don't get it". It is that simple. People just want to turn a blind eye because they think they deserve it.

Sara - posted on 09/21/2010

I have to add here, I do believe it is a serious problem that people live beyond their means in this country. But I have to say that I don't entirely think it's the individuals fault. What about predatory lending practices? I think there are so many layers to why our culture supports this kind of behavior (poor education, cost of living, etc), it's too simple to say "If you can't afford it, don't get it". That's just my opinion.

Dana - posted on 09/21/2010

Mary N, again, I couldn't agree with you more. It's too bad more people don't see things that way. Maybe our nation wouldn't be in such debt or the average citizen wouldn't be thousands of dollars in debt. People live WAY beyond their means even when they're receiving assistance from the government.

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2010

Mary, and paying into EI insurance I take it? I don't quite understand the martyrdom.
I understand you see it all as a matter of degrees. Stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family is the same as a CEO laundrying money to afford a new yacht and mercedes.
My whole problem with this letter is it's singling out *yet again* the easiest target: the poor. They don't have influence or credibility and can't defend themselves. It's school yard bullying. I am having a hard time not seeing an agenda behind this letter.
Universal Health Care works in all other countries. So why isn't it working for America? It's not because America has a culture crisis... America has a corporate crisis. Propaganda like this can be spewed all over the news, the radio and FB and America buys into it. The agenda is to protect profit margins.
It sickens me that corporations move all their jobs overseas, F everyone over with financing, go bankrupt and then get bailed out and cause a huge recession. So many Americans have lost their jobs to maintain-increase profit margins and then to add insult to injury they try to convince the public that these people shouldn't be entitled to BASIC HEALTH CARE?????
Hence my reference to being F'd in the ass while having your wallet stolen.
Excuse me while I vomit and cry a little for America.

Rosie - posted on 09/21/2010

i can completely see how you can be upset at that situation dana, but once again how is it my fault that i qualify? i could theoretically go fulltime but then with 3 children i would end up OWING more money to a babysitter than make, so that would be redundant and i would be in a worse financial situation than i am now. there isn't always a clear cut answer for all of this.



i will tell you that i do feel stuck. my oldest boy has numerous health and psychological problems. there is NO way that i can give him medical care if i didn't have hawk-i (my states program to help people who make too much money to qualify for title 19). even if i made over double what we make now, i still wouldn't be able to pay for all of his stuff, so what then? do i just not treat my son? not to mention my other 2, have health issues as well. vinnie, grant and lucas all have diabetes insipidus, and lucas has REALLY bad eyesight-he's already had surgery, and has continual appointments to check his eyes. if i didn't have help my kid would still be unable to see, and i would just have to deal with their diabetes insipidus without having a clue of what it was, or how to treat it-which if it got bad enough, could kill them.



because of my life experiences with my children, i just don't see how healthcare isn't a right that everybody has. and now that i use government help for my children, i'm seen as an abuser. but what nobody knows is my personal situation, or my kids personal situation. i'm not saying this too be rude, but i'm sure all of you would like to ask your parents for a bit of money here and there than have to worry about whether or not you can give your child the surgery that your child needs to help him see. or the medical care he needs so that you can figure out why your 6 month old child weighs 12 lbs. 13 oz, when he was born at 8 lbs 5 oz, on top of why he is throwing up EVERY bit of food you feed him. on top of that, you find he has ADHD, and have been also given diagnoses of autism, or social anxiety disorder (still trying to figure all that out). one month of medicine for him costs $200, and he is soon going to be getting another kind of medicine, i can't even imagine what that is going to cost.

it's very frustrating for me as well. :(

Cathy - posted on 09/21/2010

Sarah, I was thinking of my former next door neighbours when I was speaking of smokers. They didn't work, two young kids, smoked god knows how much but my son's bedroom stunk of smoke. Terraced houses and somehow that stench permeated from loft to loft. So If they managed to make my house stink ... what the hell was that doing to their kids? They never went outside, had satelitte TV, a bloody great rottweiler who never got walked. All these luxuries with zero responsibility.

If people want to smoke that's fine but tax payers shouldn't be the ones funding habits that are detrimental to health. You have your own income, you earn the right to spend the money wherever you choose. You live on government money, you should get restrictions.

Isobel - posted on 09/21/2010

This is what I like about Canada...our Child Tax benefit is based on your income...there's no applying, no stamps no nothing...so in fact you could say that I get $700 per month in assistance...but not really because everybody who earns under a specific amount gets CTC to raise them up the the poverty line.



I believe, for the record, that the people who scam the system are in the minority...I've never known anybody who has done it...in Toronto, I think a mother with one child receives 1200...and a one bedroom apartment averages 1000...leaving 200 for EVERYTHING else...



oh...and I also believe that it IS worth it to carry those scammers in order to make sure that those who need it, get it

Chatty - posted on 09/21/2010

Kati, I want to make a comment and I hope I don't offend you.

With my current situation, we do NOT qualify for any type of government assistance but we are struggling every month and have had to lean on our parents more times then we would like. I don't get to eat steak, I haven't had my nails done in years, luckily my mother-in-law used to be a stylist so she sometimes cuts my hair but I haven't had it colored since before I got pregnant. I'm not saying I'm frustrated with you, but I am frustrated that there are people who abuse the system and for people like me, that could genuinely use some help, are denied that help. It's hella frustrating.

Rosie - posted on 09/21/2010

mary, am i just not understanding what you are saying? can you explain it further? (i'm not being sarcastic, so don't take it that way please :)) from what i am reading you think that people who qualify for government assistance shouldn't take it if they have any amount of money left over each month after giving up luxuries?
if that's the case then once again i have to disagree. :)
if someone qualifies for assistance why shouldn't they take it? isn't that what it's there for? to help those who qualify? i think the problem with all of this may be the income guidelines. those who are at the top just may have some money left over each month. do you think people need to be dirt poor to qualify? or for them to even take the assistance?

i do agree that this society puts too much emphasis on having nice things-we engorge ourselves on a lot of things we don't need. and i also completely agree that a cheat is a cheat no matter the number, and that is a HUGE problem working against the system as well. i know at least 1 person who has abused the system by lying where her children lived.

all in all for me, it comes down to if that person qualify's legally for assistance. if they do, why should anyone else have a say in how they spend their own money?

Chatty - posted on 09/21/2010

I do agree with you, Mary N. I was just trying to get a better understanding of where everyone's head was at. I do totally agree with what you're saying though.

Sarah - posted on 09/21/2010

I think it's a minority that cheat the system.
I also think in the UK at least, that system is a bit flawed! In some cases, you're only marginally better off working, and I do kind of understand why SOME people choose to do that.

On the smoking thing........obviously smoking is bad etc etc. but I just wanted to say that because someone smokes it doesn't mean that a) they're making their choke on smoke.....some of us DO go outside! and b) it doesn't necessarily mean that we're spending our benefit money to fund our smoking habit and let our kids suffer for what they need. I smoke, but that means that I go without luxuries, not the kids. I'm sat here right now and every single piece of clothing (except underwear haha) is at LEAST 10 years old, including my trainers!!

Not trying to justify smoking, it's a terrible habit and I know I should quit as should many others, but I feel like it should be noted that smokers aren't always letting their kids go without to fund their habit! :)

Mary - posted on 09/21/2010

See, to me, cheating is cheating, no matter the scale. My frustration is NOT just those assistance recipients who abuse the system, it is with ALL citizens who do it. It does not matter if it is a minority or majority who do it, ONE person doing it is one person too many.

When my husband lost his job, he would have qualified for unemployment benefits. It certainly would have made our financial situation a little less tight. However, we could (and did) get by through cutting out a lot of the unnecessary things in our life. Would we have been "cheating" the system by collecting unemployment (and thereby enabling us to keep our cable tv, his ungodly diet soda addiction or the ability to text on our antiquated phones)? Technically, no, it would have been perfectly legal for us to do so. He is someone who has been working, and paying taxes without ever receiving any type of aid for 25 years, so it certainly wasn't as if he wasn't "entitled" to a little help for the first time in his life. We just both agreed that it wasn't morally the "right" thing to do, since we could eek by for a time without it. I guess I just think what a richer society it would be for all of us if more people were willing to sacrifice the non-essential things, and thereby increase the availability of the bare necessities to ALL.

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2010

Minority... in numbers, the rich are probably cheating more...

ME - posted on 09/21/2010

I think a minority of aid recipients are "cheating" the system...perhaps by not reporting income, etc.

Jenni - posted on 09/21/2010

Some people opt to have a cell phone over a home phone... nearly the same price.

Point is: A doctor judging how a medicaid receipient lives is like Paris Hilton judging how someone living in a trailor park lives.... you really have no clue.

Yes there are people who take advantage of the system... but really it's in in pennies and dollars as opposed to white collars taking advantage which is in billions of dollars... ie: bail outs??

It's picking on the poor as many have pointed out. Corporate bail outs are the REAL culture crisis, not to mention cheating on taxes and whatever else the rich do to stay rich and rip the rest of us off. Pardon my language and I hope i dont offend anyone but it's like getting F'd up the ass while getting your wallet stolen.

Chatty - posted on 09/21/2010

Can we have a vote? Who of you think there that MOST people cheat the system and who of you think the cheaters are a MINORITY?

Please vote, MOST or MINORITY......

Cathy - posted on 09/21/2010

I've just ordered myself a new phone ... first in 10 years, as my 3rd hand iPhone refuses to work mobile anymore. Just dispelling that iPhone poser myth!

Mary - posted on 09/21/2010

Kati, I DO think you are twisting my words to mean something they don't. There is a HUGE difference between buying the occasional steak, and spending $7 bucks a day on cigarettes. There is also a big difference between splurging every so often on a pedicure or highlights, and going every couple of weeks to maintain those hair and nails. Yes, you can all argue that the woman in this post happened to show up on a day after her friends had bought that bag, and gave her gift card for a mani, and she is talking on her sister's cell phone. Anything is possible in this one scenario. It does not negate the fact that there are a large number of people receiving gov't assistance who DO squander those monies...and the cost of that cell phone is less money available for her neighbor's glaucoma drops.

Cathy - posted on 09/21/2010

The UK benefits system is flawed because we hand over money to people to do with as they will (food vouchers would be considered a violation of human rights). Go spend it all on cigarettes and alcohol if you want. What's the point of working if your given money for doing nowt.

I've been in the position of being a single parent with an actual 'disabled' child and until I got him assessed for disability living allowance we were struggling to live. Yes I got my rent paid but the rest of my money barely covered gas, electric, water and a cheap shopping budget. If I was worrying about medical expenses on top ... well shit, who knows what I would have done or where my son would be in coping with his autism.

What was crazy was once he got DLA, I also qualified for a higher level of tax credits and carers allowance. I went for have less than zero in my account each month and scraping into my overdraft to being able to save £100 each month despite no longer having to scrimp and getting to enjoy some luxuries. I almost felt guilty ...almost!

You then think about the number of people cheating the system. If I come out of it in profit with a legitimate claim then how much are they making? There's nothing restricting where they spend it. It does bother me that so many people use it to live a destructive lifestyle and then become a drain on the NHS eg. Children with severe asthma because mum and dad are 40 a day smokers.

It's the same problem.

I do think health care is a human right, I don't think restricting what benefit money could be used for is. I'm all for food vouchers here!

Sarah - posted on 09/21/2010

I think the problem from my point of view is that we're talking about healthcare in conjunction with "screwing the system". If we were talking about people who play the system to get say, Disability Allowance when there's nothing wrong with them, or to get more Tax Credits by saying they're a single parent when really they're living with someone, then I would be agreeing with those of you who are saying it's a "culture crisis" etc.

The fact is, personally, I think they're "screwing the system" to get something they should be entitled to in the first place!! Which is entirely different to trying to get MORE than they should, it's trying to get what they should be entitled to have. Just as think super wealthy people shouldn't have to pay either. But that's the British coming out in me I guess!!

Anyone who CHEATS the system, is a right pain in the ass, it's not fair and it's not right. Anyone who is receiving benefits they're entitled too, is just taking what they need to help them live as comfortably as they can.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking what the government offers to help you, I'd be in real shit if I didn't get my Tax Credits. I also think that what you spend it on is your own business, if we start telling people (poor people in particular) what to buy and what to do, that seems like a slippery slope to me.

Joy - posted on 09/20/2010

I have to agree with every word Mary said in her oh so eloquent post :) Honestly, of course there are those who "use the system" properly and there are those who mooch. I am a perfect example of someone who "used the system" properly. I moved from Florida to NY, we had no income, no insurance and yes, we applied for and recieved food stamps and insurance. The MOMENT my husband got a job and was eligible for insurance and 401k, etc, we took full advantage of THAT and I cancelled all of our government supplied benefits. People like that in the USA are NOT the norm. I know far many more people who abuse the system. I understand the thought behind not judging a book by its cover and I agree that it is never a good idea to do so. However, when you grow up for 40 years in a society of "I, ME, MY" and you see the woman ahead of you get approved for benefits and drive away in her BMW when you get denied and drive away in your beater.....over and over....you begin to understand that sometimes in this great nation of ours, fairness has different meanings and they are all dependent on what region you live in. I think all people, world wide, should have access to healthcare as a human right. No doubt. But I am also a realist and I've seen countless people like Mary, do countless things for people who started out as victims and never did anything to change it. I grew up a foster child. From home to home to home. And for whatever reason, I didn't become a statistic. That means, if one person can go against the odds, so can a lot of other people. And sadly, I don't think many do. I think people (the majority of Americans who try for assistance) use and totally abuse the system, make up names and addresses and incomes just to get the most they can out of the freebies because they can. They feel entitled and they think that they are owed. I think we need to really take a look inside and figure out what the hell is going on to make people think it's ok to think this way. And no, before I close, I want to make sure it's crystal clear that I DO NOT believe that every person on government assistance in the US or anywhere else, is cheating. I just DO believe (from experience) that a great deal of them are. You shouldn't show up for your Medicaid appointment in your Mercedes. Think twice that day and take the friggin' Toyota. Make me at least FEEL better.

Chatty - posted on 09/20/2010

Gin? YUCK....I prefer vodka!

Krista - posted on 09/20/2010

It's like shopping while fat. If your cart has ANYTHING fattening in it, you get the looks of condemnation. If it has diet stuff, you get the looks of pity.

So I just fill my cart with gin.

Teresa - posted on 09/20/2010

You can't win, Mary. I've seen it done both ways on the debates. If you buy the cheap food, you get blamed for feeding your family crap. If you buy healthy food, you get blamed for wasting tax payers money. ;)

I was never nervous about buying food on food stamps until I started reading these kinds of posts. Now everytime I pull out that card I wonder if anyone is silently judging me and my cart... Oh well, can't please everyone... or sometimes anyone.

ME - posted on 09/20/2010

Just to add to what Kati said as well...As I said earlier, I buy organic meat, fruit and veggies when possible. I often get seriously dirty looks for this choice because I am also on WIC...but, what people don't know who simply see me in the check out line is that my husband and I forgo many things that many people would not consider luxuries so that we CAN afford something like healthy food (which is more important to us)...People who give me dirty looks at the store don't know this about me (and as I've also said, they would judge me as well if I bought less nourishing/less expensive food anyway)...they are making assumptions and judgments based on limited information. We don't know what information was missing from this woman's history, or what info the doctor and staff were lacking when they made these judgments and assumptions...We don't know what things this woman is forgoing so that she can afford her purse or whatever...Inherent in our judgment of her is the idea that we know what is better for her then she does, and that we should have some say in how she spends her money...I have to agree with Kati; as long as she's not breaking the law, it's no one's business but hers...

Rosie - posted on 09/20/2010

No, it really is not okay to spend money you don't have on unnecessary personal grooming, electronics, designer bags and shoes, or entertainment, all the while collecting a monthly check from the government for food and housing. I have absolutely no issues with continuing to work, and pay taxes, so that both myself and others can thrive and survive in this world. I do have an issue with not utlizing what funds you have towards the bare necessities first, and going without the luxuries until you can independently provide for you and yours.- that is a quote of mary's.



i take it to mean just what it says, she has a problem with me spending money on a steak or any other thing for that matter that isn't just bare bones necessities. it seems in her mind i should be eating ramen because steak is a luxury. i can also use other things like i posted in my last post like my house, is that too much? should i have stayed in my shithole of a trailer just so she and others that think like her aren't upset that i am not completely living at my lowest means?



in other numerous threads about welfare, and government assistance, it's an OVERWHELMING majority against those who are on assistance. i find it sickening, disheartening, and downright rude to be so judgemental of other people who aren't doing anything wrong.



like i've said before if they are obtaining this help legally and qualify, who are we to judge how people spend the money that they do have as long as it's all legit?

Dana - posted on 09/20/2010

But, where has anyone even suggested anything remotely close to what you're saying?

Rosie - posted on 09/20/2010

really? i think the same thing about those who agree with this man.

Dana - posted on 09/20/2010

Kati, I actually think your taking this too personally and stretching what anyone is saying too far.

Rosie - posted on 09/20/2010

i made that point earlier dana too. :) as long as these people are qualifying for title 19 LEGALLY, i can give a crap less how they spend their money. i do understand people lie about their income, have extra money coming in from drugs, or lie about where their kids are living, i COMPLETELY agree that those people are a HUGE problem,. but the problem is as mary elizabeth has stated, that people look down on EVERYONE that has government help, no matter what. it's gets old, really quickly. it frustrates me, in case you can't tell. :)

Isobel - posted on 09/20/2010

or if she's gone for months without doing ANYTHING and finally broke down...I've been there too.

Chatty - posted on 09/20/2010

Kati, I want to comment on your last statement. "my point being as long as these people actually QUALIFY for title 19, what gives you the right to determine how they should be living their life?"

Not that I necessarily disagree with your stance on this issue BUT SOME people lie about certain things so they're able to QUALIFY. I'm not saying you and I'm not even saying most, but it does happen. Just because people "qualify" doesn't mean they came by it honestly.

Teresa - posted on 09/20/2010

I'm currently on every type of assistance... medical, housing, cash, and food. As a single mom w/ an ex who won't pay child support... I will never be able to survive w/out the housing and food stamp assistance. It's just a fact where I live... and since 'paying' for my children's medical insurance is legally their father's responsibility... they will never be off of state insurance. Food assistance aside, we live on about $600/month at the moment. The household bills come to $400 not including vehicle gas, diapers, and household supplies (like clothes, laundry soap, basically anything). Do the math. ;) I AM working towards getting off the cash assistance, but life keeps getting in the way. Like today... I am supposed to be taking the test to get my GED at this very moment, but my son has a temp of 102....

I get that some people do abuse the system, but more people are judged that are legitimately ON the system. I was once part of a debate where a woman was observed drinking Starbucks while paying for groceries w/ food stamps. How is anyone supposed to know if that $5 Starbucks was her once a month 'treat' or if she met a friend there that treated HER? Fact is, you don't. ;)

Rosie - posted on 09/20/2010

ok, i just can't stay away, lol!!



people are asking what does having a steak have to do with this topic, so i want to throw in my bit about that. it was implied earlier that saving, and getting rid of costly things was something that i should be doing. who gets to decide what is too much of a luxury? is having a car too much of a luxury, are we sure i shouldn't be walking or taking public transportation? should i give up internet? should i not have a steak, because i COULD have hamburger instead, or should i just be eating ramen noodles all the time? should i own my own home, or should we have stayed in our shitty 1974 trailer just to please those opposed to my ridiculous "want" to own my own home?

my point being as long as these people actually QUALIFY for title 19, what gives you the right to determine how they should be living their life? if you don't like it that some people have money left over at the end of the month (probably because they have found ways to SAVE money, like myself, so i can have some little extras) then maybe you should be griping about the income qualifications for title 19. maybe you should push for your state to make it so people who are at the top of the income requirements don't qualify anymore. but until that happens, i just don't get the moaning about how people spend their own money.

Dana - posted on 09/20/2010

Ah, I get what you mean, by "new language" I thought you mean the "new link" I put up.

Isobel - posted on 09/20/2010

and Dana...I said that was the problem right at the beginning...that the problem is that our culture values being rich more than it values being responsible...therefore people are willing to sacrifice what they need, in order to look like they have money...it's sick.

Isobel - posted on 09/20/2010

no I think the facebook version is hateful and rude...like I said earlier...the real version mostly sounds like my parents...and while I generally don't agree with them on these types of issues...I usually don't suspect them of being a plot from a big business trying to undermine a political movement.

Dana - posted on 09/20/2010

See I thought it was more cut and dry...to the point of HIS opinion. I actually fully understand his frustration. Our country is out of control. Everyone wants what they can NOT afford. And they'll put things that used to be luxuries that you got if you worked hard, ahead of necessities. It is ridiculous in my opinion. In any other thread we've all agreed that the people of the US are greedy and spend way more than they make, how is this any different?

Isobel - posted on 09/20/2010

yup...the new language is far more inflammatory

Dana - posted on 09/20/2010

I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD READ AND ACKNOWLEDGE THIS BEFORE WE CONTINUE THE DEBATE.

The letter that is going around on FB and shown here in the OP is not the REAL letter. I think it actually makes a difference if you read the original letter not the one that has been circulating around FB.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/s...

Isobel - posted on 09/19/2010

yes...the letter was a "real" letter to the editor...whether or not the intent of the letter was what they contend is what I dispute...I know it really was written and sent to a newspaper.

Jane - posted on 09/19/2010

This letter is 100% real...see the following url: http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/s...

I do agree...people make bad choices. To me, the person the doctor is referring to has their priorities all screwed up and is irresponsible. I do NOT feel bad for people who make choices that cost ME money. End of story!

Isobel - posted on 09/19/2010

I would just like somebody to rewrite this entire "letter to the editor" but instead of picking on a poor woman...focus on the EXACT same problem from the white collar end.

you know...like the GM executives taking their private jet to go and beg the government for a bail out...or that bank that got the bailout and then used it to hand out millions of dollars in bonuses to it's useless executives.

In fact, those tools cost the American tax payers WAY more money than all the welfare scammers in the world combined.

That's why I don't believe that this letter is real...it is totally intended to make people angry and resentful and fearful of "socialized" medicine.

Alison - posted on 09/19/2010

You can get those gold teeth that fit over your regular teeth. They can be removed at night. I know a guy who had some with $ signs on them. The diamonds on teeth can also be temporary and they don't cost as much as people think if they're fake ones. Nothing to do with this healthcare discussion, but I just wanted to share.

Dana - posted on 09/19/2010

Good Lord, NO! That's really messed up...

Kelly - posted on 09/19/2010

I just have to add this to the gold tooth discussion--I volunteered in my son's class Friday, and there is a child in his class with gold on his teeth!!! The kid is only 5 years old! It was everything I could do not to ask him about them....

Has anyone else seen gold teeth on an elementary school kid?

Dana - posted on 09/19/2010

LOL, probably.

Jenni - posted on 09/19/2010

I live right across the river from Detroit... could that be why?

Dana - posted on 09/19/2010

Haha, well, there's not that many people in the US with gold teeth. I've never actually seen anyone with a gold tooth. I'm sure there are plenty of them out there and mostly in the cities but, it's really not that common as a whole.

Jenni - posted on 09/19/2010

Ok this I don't get...... how come there's so many people in the States who have gold teeth, but i've never seen anyone with gold teeth in Canada??? Yes this is a serious question! I really don't understand :/

I've actually met two different girls who had a diamond in their tooth which i thought was pretty neato. Not for me, but still pretty neat.