Culture Crisis vs Health Care Crisis

Sara - posted on 09/17/2010

But how do you spark that kind of change in society, Mary? I don't really disagree with you, but I just wonder how can we even begin to get people to have more personal accountability?

Mary - posted on 09/17/2010

I've muddled over this thread a bit since last night, and I really do think a lot of you not only misinterpreted this letter, but over-reacted as well.

No where in this little rant does the author imply that ALL medicaid recipients are like this, or that he is opposed to providing coverage for those truly in need. All he is doing is expressing frustration with what he contends is a growing lack of personal responsibilty and accountability amongst a fair number of this country's citizens. It is frustrating to have to utilize our limited healthcare resources on someone who spends what little money they may have on smoking, junk food and beer (which is probably a contibuting factor to that ER visit), and despite not having the means to pay for insurance, does spend money on (unnecessary) costly personal items.

You can jump on the bandwagon of self-righteous indignation all you want, but the fact of the matter is, he is not entirely wrong, nor does his letter reflect a heartless disregard for the less fortunate in this country. He is expressing his frustration about what he sees...a large number of people who abuse the system with either wanton disregard, or simple ignorance, of how this impacts ALL the citizens of this country, both the haves AND the have-nots. All countries, with or without universal coverage, do not have unlimited health care resources. Those individuals who abuse the system are robbing ALL of us, whether you chose to see it or not. I do think there is a "culture crisis" in society today...the increased value placed on material goods and personal appearance at the expense of basic necessitites, and the increased acceptability of accumulating debt is apparent throughout the world, and it is seriosly impacting the availability and quality of healthcare for ALL of us.

I'm sorry, but his claims are not without merit. Universal coverage is not, in and of itself, the answer. Increased accountability and personal responsibility are necessary amongst ALL citizens, of ALL financial means is necessary if quality health care is going to become available to all.

C. - posted on 09/17/2010

I read that on FB yesterday and was actually going to start a thread on it. Thanks for beating me to it, Mary :P

I agree with him. There are too many people that go out and buy all this crap that they DON'T need just b/c they know someone will be willing to pay for the things that ARE needed (like buying gold teeth, name brand clothing, etc INSTEAD of health insurance). I agree with his letter 100%.

Sarah - posted on 09/17/2010

There are ALWAYS people that are going to cheat the system. Here in the UK it annoys me when people are earning FAR more than my family purely by receiving benefits.
Healthcare though, I strongly believe should be "free" and available to everyone.

I wanted to touch on what Mary said, she said that they cut back when her husband lost his job, which is admirable and what *most* decent people would do. However, imagine if you had to live like ALL the time. For years, or maybe even your whole life. Then perhaps it start to REALLY get you down. You might want to actually treat yourself every now then.
I don't think that just because you're "poor" you should have to go without every little luxury. If they didn't receive Medicaid, they would have to live hand to mouth ALL the time.

Like I said, I know there are people that take the piss, but I'd still rather pay my taxes and "pay" for everyone else to have healthcare, than know there are people not able to receive the care they need.
(if any of that makes sense!)

Rosie - posted on 09/16/2010

yeah, it was not fun!! thank goodness for my husband the second and third time around. i was able to take 10 weeks off with my second, and 8 weeks with my 3rd. a MUCH different experience, that's for sure. :)

ME - posted on 09/16/2010

Wow Kati, I had to go back 3 1/2 weeks after Mayah was born, and I though that was bad...

Isobel - posted on 09/16/2010

no, you are right...it's not an excuse...but it IS a reason.



I just feel that these types of emails make it look like people on assistance are generally like that...I believe they are the exception to the rule as well.

ME - posted on 09/16/2010

I agree with Laura...This type of judgmental attitude is disheartening, and sickening to me. My husband and I had a rather comfy lifestyle until I lost my job for getting pregnant, and then he lost his because his co. was going under...I know that many of you know my personal story, so I won't go into it again in detail...but I'm sure that I've been the subject of much condemnation from my health care providers if this is the attitude they take with their public aid patients. I wear my beautiful sapphire wedding jewelry every day, and I have a few nice things left from when we were a newly married couple with no kids and two full time jobs...perhaps I am expected to pawn or sell all of my special/sentimental things so that others won't be offended by my current poverty...
We MUST do away with for-profit health insurance in this country...it is disgusting, and it's proponents should ashamed of themselves.

Mary - posted on 09/16/2010

Well, Laura, perhaps I am the exception...but just because" everyone else is doing it " does not mean it is acceptable.

I'll restate, I completely support the implementation if universal health care in the US. I also have no moral objections to those who require assistance for a temporary period to get their lives/jobs/finances in order. I DO object to those who flat out expect governmental assistance without ever thinking they need to not only start fending for themselves at some point, but contributing back into society as a whole. No, it really is not okay to spend money you don't have on unnecessary personal grooming, electronics, designer bags and shoes, or entertainment, all the while collecting a monthly check from the government for food and housing. I have absolutely no issues with continuing to work, and pay taxes, so that both myself and others can thrive and survive in this world. I do have an issue with not utlizing what funds you have towards the bare necessities first, and going without the luxuries until you can independently provide for you and yours.

Kelly - posted on 09/16/2010

Okay, I was rather angry when I wrote the first posts, as I had spent the entire morning unsuccessfully trying to get these parents to please go pickup their kids' meds, so I apologize for my tone.

Laura, I am not implying that most people on Medicaid fit that description, I am saying that most people who fit that description are on Medicaid.

Most people who are on Medicaid are like Katie--they are responsible, sure she gets the occasional $20 mani, but (from what I read of her on these boards, and please forgive me if I am wrong, Kati) I doubt she spends $60 a week on custom air-brush mani's. I'm sure she goes to a salon on occasion to keep her style up, but I doubt she spends $150 every week on elaborate up-do's or custom color jobs. (Btw, Katie, I was not referring to a single color or french mani like the one you described, these are elaborate and start around $65 and up, also, I would not expect her to pay medical bills, but she could buy insurance.....I know what medical bills are like, like I said, I don't have insurance)

Yes, our society values possessions more than we should, but I am pretty sure that as a whole, we value honesty over deception. I know I should not generalize, but when I see these women dressed like that, it is getting to a point where I just assume she is on welfare and hacking the system. Where as, when I see a woman plainly dressed, I don't know or care whether she is on welfare or not. Obviously, I am not the only one making this generalization and it is becoming pretty wide spread, so my question is, if society values "looking rich" so much, why are they trying to look like they are on welfare?

Rosie - posted on 09/16/2010

see mary i get it too a point, up until the point where people make it seem like i'm just milking the system for all it's worth. i WORK, my husband WORKS, our taxes pay for the assistance that my children get, which i also have to pay a deductable (albeit small deductable at $10 a month per child). i pay my bills, i'm not on any other assistance other than hawk-i, i have no debt other than my house, i'm not irresponsible with my money that i do have, going out and buying coach purses, and fancy cell phones, and the latest gadgets. i don't even know what a coach purse is, or how much it costs, lol!

i don't know, i guess my point is, i work just as hard if not harder than other people who just happen to have higher paying jobs. i still havn't decided what i want to do for a career, if i even want to have a career other than working part time and taking care of my kids. when i was working fulltime when i only had one child, i missed alot of things, i don't want to miss any other things with my children.



other situations can be different as well. i have a job that doesn't pay me at all for maternity leave. so not only was i not getting child support, or help from his father, i wasn't getting any money from my job so i had to go back to work 2 weeks after i gave birth, infected stiches and all. and people still think i'm lazy...

Isobel - posted on 09/16/2010

That's why, I think that some of us get so frustrated in these debates. I don't think you realize that MANY of your friends here would likely qualify for medicare...many of us are either students or working minimum wage jobs or are single parents.



The constant assertion that people on medicare are generally like the woman in the OP is (to me) offensive.



I pay my bills, I take care of my kids...and so do 99% of the women who need assistance that I know...it just gets a little tiresome to hear the CONSTANT....why should we pay for "them" (cause I can see the scowl on your face while these types of things are being said).



MOST people who are on some sort of assistance, are working their asses off for it. YES, some people are "milking" the system...to me it would be worth it to carry one of those to make sure that the 10 others who need it and deserve it, get the help they need.

Jenni - posted on 09/16/2010

I don't know much about the American Health Care... but i do know for every story like this... there is a story about a young child suffering from some debilitating, life-threatening illness who is going w/o proper health care.

Isobel - posted on 09/16/2010

if you guys are allowed to assert that the woman in the op is representative of people on medicaid...then I am allowed to assert that the majority of North Americans are entirely irresponsible with financial matters. (and I'm pretty sure I am more correct than you...our financial system relies on us being in debt)

you are the exception in this case...not the rule.

Mary - posted on 09/16/2010

No, Kati, we don't always know the particulars of anyone's given situation...well, maybe not completely. L&D is a bit unusual in that I do typically have access to their prenatal record for the past 9 months, which does include bits of social information. We also, over the course of their labor, discuss the homelife situation. Part of the assessment is to find out about what type of home situation she and the baby will be heading into...work/childcare/support systems, etc - to see if we need to get social services involved. So often, I do have a fairly good, albeir not completely comprehensive picture of what the deal is.

I am sympathetic to your situation, but I would argue that $20.00 a month for a pedicure could instead be applied to the cost of formula/diapers, or even a monthly payment towards those medical bills, instead of shrugging the whole thing off because it seems like an insurmountable sum, so why even bother trying.

As I've disclosed before, my husband was laid off 3 weeks before my daughter was born. I had 6 weeks of disability, which was at 80% of my pay. While I still had insurance, I did have about $2000.00 in medical bills, a car payment, and 2 mortgages (J's house was still on the market). Because I am frugal, we did have a fairly hefty savings account to rely on, but I certainly didn't want to eat through that too quickly, and I was determined to stay home as long as possible. I DID give up the pedicures and bi-monthly highlights. Until he was employed again, I cancelled all but basic cable (for reception), and our cell phone plan was the bare minimum minutes...no texting - just 75 shared minutes/month which we did not exceed (I should add that both of our phones were at least 4 years old as well). All alcohol and sodas were cut out - groceries were the simple necessities of meals - no chips, cookies, etc. We did not buy clothes for ourselves other than what was absolutely necessary, and for the first time in my life, I was clothes shopping at Target and Kohls instead of J Jill or Talbots. It was a huge adjustment for us, but we got through it, and did not rack up any credit card debt in the process. We sacrificed, and simplified our life tremendously, but we did it so that I could stay home 14 weeks with my daughter, and I am both proud and glad that we did.

The downside to that is that it has made me a little intolerant of those depending on medical assistance who have not foregone those personal luxuries, and have no guilt about not doing so. Despite Laura's assertation that all of society is obsessed with status and material posessions for thier sense of self worth, there are actually a large percentage of us that do value the things that matter most, and have a sense of responsibilty when it comes to paying our own way. I would be a lot more sympathetic to others if they felt the same, and at least made an effort.

Erin - posted on 09/16/2010

I can understand this sort of frustration, to a point. But as others have said, nobody knows all the details. While it may seem like someone is indulging in luxuries that could otherwise go towards paying bills, how do you know that manicure wasn't a gift? Maybe she has a hairdresser friend who gives her half price styles? Ofcourse, maybe not, but the point is that you just don't know.

There are always going to be bludgers who abuse the system. ANY SYSTEM!! I am a medical secretary and see plenty of people rort the workers compensation system. They have several claims going at once, and some haven't worked for over 20 years. They make the whole process harder for people with genuine clains who are trying to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean the system isn't there for a reason. Some people need workers compensation just like some need publicly-funded healthcare. Tainting everyone with the same brush is really not helpful, or accurate.

Rosie - posted on 09/16/2010

nobody knows anybodys particular situation, or how they got that purse, or phone, or tattoo, or even when they got them.
my kids have always been on some sort of state or government medical assistance. i work, my husband works, we just don't make alot of money. i have people on here say that people like me shouldn't have anymore kids, or that people who are on food stamps shouldn't pick what food they get to eat, and completely assume that people who get state help don't work and just live off the government. or that being able to afford a $20 pedicure every month means that they can afford to pay their medical bills. how does $20 here and there even remotely add up to the 10's of thousands of dollars that my children have accumulated. once there was almost $30,000 in one bill. that was when i was single and making about $27,000 a year. in the same year he had accumulated another $35,000 from 2 other hospital stays. tell me how my $100 tattoo, or $20 pedi is gong to pay for that?
i don't know, i get why some people can be angry, but really, nobody knows anybodys particular situation. i work, always have since i was 14. there's just no way in hell i can pay for my childrens medical bills.

Isobel - posted on 09/16/2010

oh yeah? you guys value paying your bills and being responsible? when was the last time we saw a reality show about a normal responsible couple?...no, it's always about the flash...about the bling...everything is about how to make more money, how the wealthy spend their money, how many luxurious things would you have if you could...nope, I don't buy that being responsible is as attractive as being rich (or appearing that way)...



that's part of what led to the current financial crisis...the fact that we as a society are encouraged to live beyond our means...go into debt to dress the way we want, eat the way we want, travel the way we want...then when the time comes to pay the piper...we're shocked that we could never have afforded it in the first place.



I am always stunned when I go shopping in the states for anything big...they never tell you the price...they tell you the payment schedule.



It has become the rule rather than the exception to be in debt...and that is NOT "valuing" responsibility.

Kelly - posted on 09/16/2010

Are their two societies then? I am confused. The society I know, places more value on a person who pays their bills and holds a legal job, than anyone mooching off the system and wearing designer jeans. In fact, most of society would have a lot more respect for a woman on welfare wearing Levis and carrying a thrift store purse, than a woman on welfare wearing designer jeans and carrying a Coach bag.

Sure, AS KIDS we wanted to be the "cool kid" and have the cool clothes and such, but we are adults now, and these women are adults, they need to grow up, pay their bills and ditch the high-maintenance if they cannot afford it. I work with their kids, their kids do wear thrift store clothes and tattered shoes. The get free medication from the state, yet even with that, we had 17 kids run out of meds last week. Why? "I don't have time to sit down there and wait all day for some quack to give me a pill bottle. They need to get off their asses and move faster, people got things to do!" was the response I got from several mothers who did not even have jobs! One had the nerve to say "I sat there and waited for like 20 minutes, then I had a hair appointment so I left." These are meds their kids DEPEND ON!!! UGH!! I'm sorry I'm ranting, but it really irritates me that they are so "entitled".
I and other taxpayers are paying for those meds, the least they could do is wait a few minutes to get the prescription filled. And then there is me, I cannot get insurance. My husband makes too much for us to qualify for Medicaid, but due to my pre-existing conditions, on the off chance someone will insure me, they want an arm and a leg to do so. And the new "high-risk pools" for the new healthcare bill is a JOKE. Has anyone had a chance to look at any of the proposed plans for that pool?

And yet, I make time to volunteer to help the children of these women, they don't have jobs, they don't volunteer. WHAT exactly are they doing all day?? Oh yea, they are getting their hair and nails done and neglecting their kids while I take care of them for free, and the state feeds them for free, and the country pays their medical bills. Sometimes I wonder why I bother.....but it's not the kids' fault, and unless someone steps in and "parents" them, they will turn out just the same, so I guess that is why....but still.

Amie - posted on 09/16/2010

Laura,

You have a great point. It's most apparent in our children.

How many of us can say our children never have strove to be the "cool" kid by having the "right" clothes and the "right" accessories? Never mind our kids, I remember this from when I was in school too. =/

Amie - posted on 09/16/2010

Dana,

That reminds me of someone. A guy my parents grew up with actually. He was the town's main supplier. He had a legitimate job but the majority of his money came through the illegal trade. So when he was finally caught (20 some odd years later) he had to forfeit all of his belongings. From his tools for his legitimate job to his acreage and vehicles, because he had no way to prove that he paid for it all solely with his legitimate jobs income.

Isobel - posted on 09/16/2010

but your/our society doesn't value people who pay their bills...we value people who look good, and who have cool phones...shame on us!

Chatty - posted on 09/16/2010

Maybe her boyfriend is a drug dealer? lmao.

Kelly - posted on 09/16/2010

I have to agree with Mary here. I volunteer with a group that helps kids who are emotionally/behaviorally unstable usually due to neglect.
Currently ALL of our kids are on Medicaid (and foodstamps) and the person described in the letter would accurately describe about 85% of the parents of these kids--Not just the occasional one, here and there, MOST of them. It is not only the tattoos and gold teeth that could have been purchased years before, but the $100 hair styles that change weekly, the airbrushed manicured nails that cost around $60/week to upkeep, the high-end cell phone, the JLo Jeans, Coach bag, and designer shoes. It really makes me sick.
Now, if they would just drop the weekly salon visit, the mani's and the phone, they could save enough $$ each month to EASILY buy insurance.

Jessica - posted on 09/16/2010

Its interesting. I will admit those kinds of things you may notice about a person may seem contradictory to them having medicaid or food stamps. And I can certainly imagine that it would be frustrating to see that kind of thing on a daily basis if you worked in health care.

But I would also say that you can't judge a book by its cover. You just don't know what that person's situation is by looking at them. I am dealing with this currently- jobs are so unstable right now and if you lose your job, chances are you lose your health insurance. My husband just got laid off because his company wasn't doing well- he, myself and my son were on his health insurance through his employer. I am also pregnant. Decent insurance too. We're covered through the end of next month but unless he finds another job with insurance that will pick me up, I'll have to apply for medicaid. Again- because the same thing happened when I was 6 months pregnant with my son- I got laid off from what should have been a stable job with good benefits, and had to go on medicaid. Its just frustrating because we are trying to do the "right thing" but keep getting set back.

Its something I think about when I feel self-conscious- how easy it might be for a stranger to look at us and think wow, they own their own home, have 2 cars and FIOS internet, just went on a week long trip to stay in a cabin in the Smokey Mountains- but they can't afford health insurance! And its not our fault...

And some insurance plans, even when people can afford it, are essentially pointless with how much you have to pay out of pocket with deductibles and copays!

Mary - posted on 09/16/2010

I support the concept of universal coverage in the US.

That being said, as a nurse, I more than understand his frustration. Many of you have claimed that she is not necessarily representative of all medicaid recipients as a whole, or that she may have been a contributing member of society who has suddenly fallen on hard times.

Yes, these are possible scenarios. Yes, there are some on medicaid temporarily who are working really hard to become self-sufficient. Sadly, many of us who work in health care see men and women just like the one in this letter on a daily basis...particularly in the ER's and L&D's across the country. This is far from an isolated event. I am constantly amazed at the elaborate hair, nails, Gucci or Coach bags, iphones, etc that the vast majority of our medicaid or "charity care" patients display on arrival to the hospital.

It does make those of us busting our asses on 12 hour shifts to care for them a little less than sympathetic to their plight. The occasional asshole is one thing, but I have to say I see at least 2 people like the woman in this letter every single night I work. It is both disheartening, and frustrating....particualrly when I look at my own frazzled hands and nails, and I haven't had highlights in close to a year because it was one of the frills I chose to cut back on in order to drop my hours to spend more time with my daughter.

It's not that I don't believe that everyone should have access to quality healthcare - I do. But I also understand how many get a little disgusted about it as well.

Sara - posted on 09/16/2010

I think that was actually written by a Insurance Company and posted on the internet...I'm kidding, but i could see that actually happening.



We may have a "culture crisis", but I will never believe that people's healthcare should be a for profit business in this country. If our lawmakers were actually more concerned with the needs of everyday people and not lining their pockets with the money from special interest groups and corporations, then maybe we'd actually get somewhere. But there is a healthcare crisis in this country, because we still have people who go bankrupt from medical bills or die because they can't afford (or their insurance will refuse to pay for) health care.

Chatty - posted on 09/16/2010

I just wanted to point out, not that it matters much, really, and I suppose it could be a typo, but the "him" in the article is actually a "her". I don't know why I feel the need to point this out but just something I noticed. Perhaps those of you who assumed it was a "him" are stereotyping as well? *ducks and runs for cover*

Liz - posted on 09/16/2010

This Dr. has a great point in THIS CASE but this is not always the case. I know a women who drive a 2009 Lexus, she also refuses to wear anything unless it comes from the mall and still gets medicaid, foodstamps. This is also a great example. But I also know many people who only use the welfare system for what they need and go without many things they don't need, myself included. My children get medicaid and food stamps. I drive a 97 Caravan with over 200,000 miles on it or my hubbies 91 Blazer. Almost everything we have is second hand unless it's a gift from family and we live a very simple life. Where I think this Dr. is wrong is the fact that health insurance is ridiculously expensive and you still have your co-pays and deductibles and only cover a certain percent. Should people who do the right thing suffer because of the people who take advantage.

Health insurance for my family would cost 400-600 a month depending on the coverage, we survive on 1200 a month.

Isobel - posted on 09/16/2010

and I would respectfully suggest that the American "culture crisis" is actually more about telling people that they are judged as people by how many expensive things they own...perhaps, if you, as a society valued people for their knowledge and their value to society...people wouldn't be wasting all of their rent and food money on symbols of wealth that make them feel like they are human beings...because god knows in a capitalist society...you are nothing without money.

Amie - posted on 09/16/2010

I agree with Mylene, there's no way to know when this person got these tattoo's or his gold tooth. Nor his financial situation at the moment vs. previously.

The judgmental attitude needs to be dropped, that plays a huge role. People take a book at it's cover a lot more often then they should. If you take the time to actually read a few pages instead of doing the once over you may learn a few things.

Are there people who abuse the system? Of course! There's people who abuse it here in Canada and it's free for every citizen. Doesn't mean we don't have our share of dead beats. I would still rather pay the taxes to make sure every single person who ever needs anything is covered, then to take it away and hope for the best. There are legitimate people who need medicaid and there are the shits. The shits are in the minority I'm sure, they just seem like the majority because they are the ones most talked about.

Isobel - posted on 09/16/2010

plus...people in America are already paying for her health care...she's not going to pay her bill even if she gets one (and who do you think ends up stuck with it?)...Universal Health Care brings costs down. American Tax payers pay MORE for their medical system than we as Canadians do. Because they don't seem to understand that paying in the first place rather than letting sky-high bill never get paid saves the taxpayers money.

Chatty - posted on 09/16/2010

Interesting. I don't fully understand the ins and outs of the American Health Care System as I'm in Canada and obviously ours is different. I CAN, however, understand the frustration.

Mylene - posted on 09/16/2010

well, in a way I understand his point since a lot of people qho are able to get insurance of their own choose medicaid BUT having tattoos and a gold tooth doesn't mean he has the money now, it can just mean that he had the money THEN. As far as the smoking well that is obviously something I don't want to pay for but it's legal so there is nothing to be done about it.