Dairy causes osteoporosis.

Cathy - posted on 03/07/2011

****Mod notice****
This thread is being locked until I can confer with the other mods.

Attack the idea not the person!

Cathy S

Vegemite - posted on 03/07/2011

if you can't laugh at or with yourself than you shouldn't laugh at or with anyone else so make sure you never laugh ;) i laugh all the time cause pretty frik'n hilarious to laugh at

Julianne - posted on 03/07/2011

calling someone a conspiracy theorist is name calling.

Julianne - posted on 03/07/2011

@sara personal attacks should be left out of debates. I am not "smoking" anything and to insinuate such a thing is offensive. If you don't like the information presented, than thats up to you, but to joke around that im not in a right state of mind to agree is very childish.

Iridescent - posted on 03/07/2011

You got it! I checked there to see if Lady Gaga was a lesbian...didn't really say, lmao!

Sarah - posted on 03/07/2011

depends what you're looking at it for...if it's information on i don't charlie sheen (cos he's on tv right now) then its more than likely going to be false but if you're looking up Cystic Fibrosis then its likely to be pretty credible. My rule for it is if it doesn't have a source I can look at then its probably not true

Iridescent - posted on 03/07/2011

Lol! I would never have known if it weren't for an awesome art teacher in middle school. And honestly, wikipedia is pretty darn awesome overall; there is a huge group of people working together to show each side of whatever issues, get their facts right, and put it in a useful format. It's honestly the best source (out of EVERY source) for what my daughter's disease is and how to treat it, and it's the wikipedia page that gets handed to the doctors and relied on in an emergency. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's not crap, either.

Sarah - posted on 03/07/2011

Amy - yeah i knew that...damn colour refraction apparently polar bears are actually black..or was that clear i dont know i read that on wiki...the world's most reliable source

Iridescent - posted on 03/07/2011

Lol, Sarah! The sky is GREEN. It appears blue because the color of the sun is yellow.

Iridescent - posted on 03/06/2011

Exactly. That's why I was more clear earlier today when I posted about how the protein works in your body, and how it's everything you eat that must be taken into consideration. For some people, milk is very likely a necessary part of their diet and if they try to stop using it (thanks to a debate like this, for example) without realizing it's all that is giving them their minimum daily protein needs and without replacing it with another protein source, they can become very ill.

Vegemite - posted on 03/06/2011

yes and if you know the percentage that a certain food has you know how much you are having per g of food. So there for it's the percentage you need to know before you choose your portion size. As i said my kids don't drink cows milk they have one 150ml (5oz) serve of formula with breakfast.



All that said we agree just not that milk causes osteoporosis and kidney problems.

Iridescent - posted on 03/06/2011

The percentage of the total which is protein is not what is important, as I stated above when I very carefully explained how each persons needs really do need to be calculated individually. It is the grams which matter. If you have a toddler who weighs 15kg, they need 16g of protein per day. They get that in 2 eight ounce glasses of milk, yet the US recommends between 24 and 32 ounces of milk alone at that age (24 to 32 g of protein), plus foods. No wonder toddlers won't eat, and don't get the dietary variety they need! They are completely missing out on 4 essential amino acids besides! So it damages their kidneys, and interferes with healthy growth, and most parents think their child is getting the nutrition they need because they drink milk. This is false.

On to adults. 50g protein. So an adult drinks 4 eight ounce glasses of milk, as recommended by the US. That accounts for 32g protein right off the top of your day. Again, 4 missing essential amino acids. Again, adults become ill and have no idea why, because they feel they are eating healthy. Then they go on to eat fruits, veggies, and a huge amount of meat on average, breads, etc. In the end, they take in 250g protein. Their entire diet needs to be fixed. But when 64% of your entire daily needs for protein comes from ONE source, it is not healthy, when it is not digested appropriately by 75% of those people, and when it does not contain all the essential amino acids the human body requires.

Vegemite - posted on 03/06/2011

Milk contains around 3.3% total protein. There for the acid and protein levels are just not there in the first place to be converted to any unsafe level. Milk protein contains 9 essential amino acids required by humans.

Also Casein protein which makes up about 82% of milk protein, Whey being the rest, can be linked to cancer according to some studies.

So we better all stop drinking milk or we'll all die from cancer and kidney disease. ;)

Iridescent - posted on 03/06/2011

Just because a food is not an acid does not mean it's not converted into one. Look up the Kreb Cycle, ammonia, nitrogen, and glutamic acid. They are all products of protein breakdown specifically and toxic, and the body is meant to handle the safe amount for that person's needs, but not meant to handle the amounts of excess that are being eaten currently on average.

Cows milk contains 8 grams of protein per 8 ounces. This is proven to bind with OVER the amount of calcium contained within that volume, which means it leaches from your bones. This then condenses in the kidneys and forms calcium stones if the person doesn't drink greater water than their body needs, to account for the excess in toxins present.

Vegemite - posted on 03/06/2011

yes amy but if something is not in the food in the first place the body can't change that thing that is said to be in the food into what ever it is meant to.....True? I'm saying the acidity and proteins levels that are being said to be in milk are actually not. If your going to be concerned about those there are many different foods you should be worry about than milk and most dairy products. I agree with you about the formula, my kids are 3 and 19months and are both still on formula because a lot of kids are fussy eaters and it's easier to digest than cows milk even though their formula is derived from cows milk

Iridescent - posted on 03/06/2011

@Christine, you are discussing acidity in foods at their uneaten point. Your post has great value for a dental viewpoint. But it does not take into consideration the products those foods become once the body starts breaking them down and using each portion, what each component from there binds with and removes from your body, or what an excess of each will do. Your post is basically saying if you soak a tooth in the food as it is, it will take x long to dissolve. That is a completely different point.

Iridescent - posted on 03/06/2011

I was just thinking this should really be explained a bit better. There are a couple things that simply aren't well understood because they are so confusing and it's apparent they should be.



Protein - the liver converts protein to ammonia by way of the Kreb Cycle. Ammonia is an acid. Any excess of protein leads to an excess of ammonia, but your ammonia level will not be high unless you have a urea cycle disorder - instead it converts to a less dangerous acid, but still an acid, called Glutamine (aka Glutamic Acid).



Protein is contained in nearly all foods in your diet. A couple exceptions are marshmallows and pears. Even apples have protein! The daily protein goal for an adult is 50 grams without any injury or illness requiring an increased need, and for children the range is 1.05-3.5g/kg/day. It's a bit of math, but not hard. If you eat too much protein, it leads to kidney stones, simply. Otherwise most people are able to flush the toxins that are the result of proteins from their body without a problem.



The average American diet consists of 250g of protein per day. It's insane! This is not necessary or healthy. A person is able to consume plenty of protein, with the 13 essential amino acids in the correct forms (even as a vegetarian, although that is more difficult as you must combine specific foods to form the essential amino acids) without a problem in most cases. An exception to this is the "picky toddler" stage. But even a few bites here and there will generally provide plenty of protein.



50g of protein is contained in:

200g (6.7 ounces) of fish

250g (7.3 ounces) of beef

14 tablespoons of peanut butter

25 slices of white bread

12.5-17 slices of whole wheat bread (depends on brand)

2500g of cabbage, corn, broccoli, lima beans, and many other veggies

6-10 containers of single serving yogurt (depends on brand)

17 slices of Kraft American cheese

6 8 ounce glasses of cows milk



As you can see, the lower the protein value, the more you have to consume to meet your minimum daily needs. Because the diet overall in the US is so unhealthy/unbalanced, without milk being pushed as it is many people are not getting enough protein, especially children who tend to avoid meats, and the higher "quality" meats - yet adults overindulge on meats (yes, I'd like that 16 ounce Ribeye with a side of baked potato and sour cream, and 6 glasses of milk because I'm famished!).



So what does this mean? It means the overindulgence in protein has led to osteoporosis. You can get plenty of calcium for your age/weight/health, yet your body cannot use it because the protein you have also consumed has negated it (or even taken more from your bones to negate it). So the net benefit is 0 or less.



What can you do? If you want to continue drinking cows milk, which is an option!, know how to read labels on other foods to calculate your body's needs in multiple areas. No two people are identical so this is difficult and may require the help of a very knowledgeable dietitian. If you have a child who simply will not eat well, they would need to be on a high protein drink to make up for it. While milk is an option, it does not provide all the essential amino acids the body needs, nor all the vitamins and minerals, so a formula would be more appropriate.

Kate CP - posted on 03/06/2011

Julianne: Amy posted a source that was used in Wikipedia. She didn't state that Wikipedia was the source itself. Therefor it's a valid source of information: like using the source found in the bibliography of an essay.

Julianne - posted on 03/06/2011

@amy, wickipedia is not a valid source of information. Anyone can edit info there.

Vegemite - posted on 03/06/2011

I can say from my ten years as a dental nurse milk is a low acid food. It is a 6.4-6.8 so just a smidgen out of the neutral range and certainly wont be causing your bones any damage.



If this acidity and protein theory were true than you better not eat the following foods either. Some of them are also high in protein.



Fruits High in Acid

Blackberries

Blueberries

Cherries

Cranberries

Grapefruit

Oranges

Plums

Strawberries

Tomato



Proteins High in Acid

Beans

Eggs

Liver

Organ Meats



Vegetables High in Acid

Lentils

corn

olives

squash



Dairy Foods High in Acid

Butter

Buttermilk

Cheese (particularly aged cheeses)

Sour Cream

Yogurt



Grains High in Acid

Most Flour-Based Foods, particularly bakery items



Liquids High in Acid

Coffee

Soda

Tea (herbal & regular)

Wine (including other fermented foods)



Miscellaneous Foods High in Acid

Cocoa

Gravy

Vitamin B Supplements, including foods fortified with Vitamin B

Charlie - posted on 03/05/2011

Nikki - Bi - lo and coles stocks almond milk .

Iridescent - posted on 03/05/2011

"Lactose digestion was assessed by an 8-hour breath hydrogen test on days 1 and 21, and symptoms of intolerance (abdominal pain, bloating, flatulence, and diarrhea) were evaluated hourly on a ranked scale during the breath hydrogen tests and once each evening during the 21-day feeding period.



Main outcome measures A comparison of breath hydrogen production and gastrointestinal symptoms at the beginning and end of the study. "

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/sum... - source #1 from the wikipedia site.



These people had an inability to digest the lactose during the study specifically, based on symptoms and confirmed by labs. So they were NOT able to digest it, and the 75% lactose intolerance level stands.



Edited to add - nobody who had no symptoms of lactose intolerance was grouped as such during the studies, according to the study reports. This was based on clinical features of that specific disorder being present.

Jenn - posted on 03/05/2011

@Nikki - I was just being silly because of the whole "we don't drink cow's milk because we aren't cows" thing - so if we drink another animals milk does that make us that animal? LOL!

@Amy - so we are looking at the same information, yet viewing it differently. If your lactase production only goes down by 5%, you are NOT lactose intolerant, as you are still able to digest lactose - a 5% decrease does not suddenly make you unable to digest it.

Rebecca - posted on 03/05/2011

I hear you. It made a huge difference in my health too. I like coconut milk in my chai tea, it's great. You can keep it in the fridge if it's in the can, use the fat that gathers at the top for vegan whipped cream (or in any sort of curry or to make soup have that "cream of" texture) and have the liquid for the coffee. It kind of has that sweet taste that milk has but none of the nasty stuff goes with it.

Nikki - posted on 03/05/2011

Thanks Rebecca, I am in Australia. I have tried rice and oat milk which I am not too keen on. I will have to see if I can get almond or hemp, I haven't seen them here. I could actually go without drinking any of it really, I am almost at the stage where I can drink black coffee and I don't use it for anything else except that one morning coffee. I feel so much better after giving up the huge quantities of milk I was drinking and I don't want to go back to feeling that way.

Rebecca - posted on 03/05/2011

Niki, if you are having those type of reproductive problems and you do live in the states - and don't drink the non-GMO miilk...you might want to look at a milk alternative like brown rice milk, almond milk, hemp milk....whatever you like. I found giving up the cow's milk helped as much as giving up soy with my reproductive problems. It's totally up to you and your doc, just wanted to relay my experience. I have an ovary that no longer functions as well (it's still in there hanging out though - kind of like a monument to my youth).

Nikki - posted on 03/05/2011

No, but goat's milk is closest in composition to human milk, I can't give her human milk, so she gets goat's.

Iridescent - posted on 03/05/2011

It simply depends on your definition of intolerance. Decreased lactase activity is the definition of lactose intolerance, hence my definition (and many other's).

"Lactose intolerance is the inability to metabolize lactose, because of a lack of the required enzyme lactase in the digestive system. It is estimated that 75% of adults worldwide show some decrease in lactase activity during adulthood.[1] The frequency of decreased lactase activity ranges from as little as 5% in northern Europe, up to 71% for Sicily, to more than 90% in some African and Asian countries.[2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_int...

Jenn - posted on 03/05/2011

So does that make your daughter a goat? By the way - human milk has the highest amount of lactose in it. We are all meant to digest lactose, but after around age 5 (when weaning should have occurred) the body starts to decrease it's production of lactase (which is what aids in the digestion of lactose). Some people's production will reduce to the point of becoming intolerant - or unable to digest lactose. Some people's production will only reduce slightly, so they are still able to digest lactose easily. And I stand by what I said - it's NOT 75% of the world's population that is lactose intolerant. It's 75% of the world's population that has that decrease in lactase producion - but not everyone's production decreases to a level where they become unable to digest lactose.

Nikki - posted on 03/05/2011

My daughter cannot handle cow's milk but goat's milk is great, all of her skin problems and upset tummy issues have gone since we switched her.

I won't ever switch her back to regular cow's milk. My doctor always says cow's milk is for baby cow's, your not a cow and you don't need that many calories. Which I totally agree with, when I was pregnant I was addicted to cow's milk, I drank 3-4 litres a day and I put on 30kg! I am slowly weaning myself off it and slowly loosing weight, I only drink 1/2 a cup in my coffee.

I don't like any alternative however, except soy but I am not willing to drink it because I want more babies and I am about to have an ovary taken out tomorrow so I don't need to add any extra challenges to my reproductive system.

Rebecca - posted on 03/05/2011

I also don't do soy because it has been shown, and I have found through watching my own body/my consumption of soy, to increase the growth of my endometriosis. Apparently, it's the estrogen aspect of it.

Rebecca - posted on 03/05/2011

Well, see it all depends on the body right. I can tolerate some goat's milk or sheep's milk in very small amounts. My daughter has inherited my lactose problems and can drink large amounts of goat's milk with no problem. That is why there is no blanket statement about milk or dairy that works for everyone. Each body, even close family members, respond to milk or lactose differently. All you can do is try and see what works best for you.

Iridescent - posted on 03/05/2011

Also, it is 6g of protein per 8 ounces compared to the cow's milk 8g per 8 ounces, so while it's still high in protein it's not as high, so the calcium is of more benefit.

Iridescent - posted on 03/05/2011

Goat's milk is an excellent alternative to cow's milk that generally does not cause the same problems. It is similar in protein composition to cow's milk, so if an allergy is present there can be a cross reaction (our son has this), but for many even with allergies it is safe. It's much closer to a human milk than cow's, even though the protein structure is intermediate.

Becky - posted on 03/05/2011

What about goat's milk? Does it cause the same issues as cows milk? We have put Zach on goat's milk because he just won't drink cows milk. I tried rice and almond, but he didn't like either. Now reading what Amy posted, I'm glad we didn't stick with the rice milk, as I did not know that about the arsenic. And almond milk constipated him.

Cathy - posted on 03/05/2011

That 75% is the in the entire world. African and Asian countries account for a large portion of that number. Their is also suggestion that it's ancestral environmentally related. A European gut has evolved to more easily accept dairy where as it's difficult to safely raise dairy herds in certain climates and those guts have failed to develop the ability to process as successfully. Genetics will then play a big part.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...
http://www.foodreactions.org/intolerance...

Jenn - posted on 03/05/2011

It isn't 75% of people who are lactose intolerant - it's 75% of people who over their lifetime may have some amount of lactase decrease - but it could be so minimal that it has virtually no effect and they can still digest lactose quite well.

Iridescent - posted on 03/05/2011

You got it! So choose wisely for your own body.

Bonnie - posted on 03/05/2011

Lately it seems like anything you eat does something bad to your body somehow.

Iridescent - posted on 03/05/2011

Julianne is correct with the percentage of people that are lactose intolerant, overall, and the fact that many do not realize it.

We use rice milk as a replacement, but Coconut is also being found to be an excellent alternative as is Almond. If it's a staple being drank (more than a cup per day), don't give rice milk to children under 5 years old as it does contain low levels of arsenic (or is it cyanide?) which can be harmful. Also, if you are gluten intolerant, rice milk is made with barley enzymes although it is technically gluten free, and does cause a reaction in hypersensitive celiac's.

Julianne - posted on 03/05/2011

75% of people actually, some never know they are because they are use to suffering.

Julianne - posted on 03/05/2011

Soy is the worst for alternative milks. Studies exist that are trying to prove it effects your hormone levels and can create sterile people. Almond is the best i find. i really want to try hemp but you cant get it around here.

Teresa - posted on 03/05/2011

Actually, I've only tried soy so far, so I don't KNOW that no alternative will match up. Just going to hope that I don't end up w/ my parents issues for now cuz as of now.... I'm still fine w/ milk. ;)

Rebecca - posted on 03/05/2011

I'm sure you've tried it Teresa, but my alternative is Brown Rice Milk, Almond Milk or Coconut Milk. I remember milk, even with the gas and bloating that followed, I remember enjoying it as well. Those alternatives are good for me now. It might just be conditioning though.

Teresa - posted on 03/05/2011

Both my parents don't drink milk anymore. They both drink soy now.... Nasty stuff. I'm concerned about not being able to tolerate it when I get older cuz I LOVE it and no alternative matches up.

Sharon - posted on 03/05/2011

pft. I'm not discarding my milk. Because its not my only source of calcium.

We eat a lot of seaweed - well a lot compared to americans. Probably less compared to my relatives.

We love kale in our soups. Bok choy in our soups & stir frys. Dark leafy greens are common in my house.

"most" people are lactose intolerant? 5 people in my family and NONE of use are lactose intolerant.

Taking in extended family = 10 = none of them are lactose intolerant either.

I keep a gallon of milk at work my breaks. Its just refreshing. Its often half gone from one day to the next - that means quite a few of my co-workers aren't lactose intolerant either?

Where the fuck does this "MOST" people shit come from?

Julianne - posted on 03/05/2011

@Jennifer most people are lactose intolerant. I didnt develop symptoms until i was a teen.

Julianne - posted on 03/05/2011

Milk causes more problems than just osteoporosis. And yes, i am a vegan, but like i said in my other thread and other places on com. GRASSFED MEAT is something meat eaters should eat, and fish because it has lots of omega 3s. Limiting protein and eating more vegetables is what people should be doing to prevent health hazards from these foods.I am not preaching a vegan diet. Just a healthier one that doesnt have milk.

Iridescent - posted on 03/05/2011

It is simply the amount of protein in the milk that is the problem. Calcium is quite high in many other sources, without the same level of protein to stop you from benefiting from it.

Personal experiences, I've never held down a glass of milk in my life. Yet my bone density is excellent (I'm 30). My sister has always had milk daily, and continues to drink 1/2 gallon or so per day...yet she has osteopenia at just 29 years old. She also supplements her diet with vitamins and Ensure, plus high protein foods, all of which (based on my research) contributes to the problem except the vitamin supplementation.

Jenni - posted on 03/05/2011

I drank tons of milk as a kid... didn't like juice or pop. I've never broken a bone (and have had many accidents where I should have). Anyways, just a personal experience. I also never had a cavity until my 20s. Funny, cause that's when I became lactose intolerant.... probably just a coincidence.
But I LOVE MILK... on my cereal, chocolate milk, ice-cold glass.... and milk alternative just don't cut it. :(