Did Christanity create the liberal soceity America and Australia live in? And is this proof of God?

Alison - posted on 05/28/2012

Even if Christianity were responsible for the most liberal of societies (which it absolutely is not), that proves in no way that God exists.

I can see a reasoning that societies based on other religions are more prohibitive, and less free, but let's not neglect the societies that go by no religion and are getting along quite nicely (e.g. Sweden).

I do believe in the existence of God and in Christianity, but I think the American Christians are making a mess of their country. (not all of them of course, just the ones who are voting for the Republicans)

Tracey - posted on 05/28/2012

You nailed it, Rosie. *Religion* is truly a great ruiner of everything. Relationships, on the other hand, improve things. Ask many who call themselves followers of Christ, and they will tell you what motivates them is their relationship with a living, breathing Christ. Ask many who call themselves Christians, on the other hand, and you'll get all kinds of fluffy-headed answers, as well as a lot of "do as I say, not as I do" behaviors. There are a lot of people outsiders would call "Christians" who would rather term themselves as followers of Christ, and those people generally will say they hate religion. I do.

Rosie - posted on 05/27/2012

christianity (and any religion really) ruins society IMO. look at all the wars going on over religious bullshit. look at the reason WHY america is a country-so that christianity didn't govern society. the idea that murder is bad was around long before the story of the birth of christ, and ever since christianity has been introduced, witch burnings (which still go on in africa btw), the treatment of women, blacks, and gays is/was horrendous (but oh so christ like), even different denominations within the christian sect were treated horribly. the crusades is just another example of the scurge on humanity that religion is. how can he say we live in a great liberal society with rules that go against everything the founders of this country wanted.

as a disclaimer i will say there are obviously plenty of people who are christian who make this a great society, but to say it is BECAUSE they are christian is completely ridiculous. especially considering the size of the prison population ratio, atheist to religious, is overwhelmingly in favor of the religious. people are good because they can be, not because we need some ancient book to dictate to us how to behave.

Jakki - posted on 05/22/2012

Ha! Jenny that's funny because this is exactly what my mother says and we always have boisterous arguments about it.

I could go on about this subject for a long time but here I'll just say "liberal society developed in the West despite Christianity not because of it".

I always quote that it took 2 thousand years since Christianity started for there to be the vote for everyone, and equality and justice etc etc. If you look at peopole's lives in the middle ages in Christian Europe, it isn't very different from sharia law in Islamic countries.

So Christianity had many years to create liberal society, and it didn't do it. The churches fought against liberal impulses for the past 500 years, so now they can't take the credit. Full stop!

Good luck with your brother!

Jenny - posted on 05/18/2012

thank you amy, this does help.

Amy - posted on 05/18/2012

I believe in God, my husband does not (as in he does not believe in any God or higher power etc) I (of course) respect his beliefs as he does mine. His response to people who try to "prove" God is...Christians believe by faith, if you could prove that God exists then there would be no faith & everyone would believe. For example, you can trust your spouse not to cheat on you & have faith that they aren't but the moment that you prove it by hiring someone to follow them etc then you may know that they are not cheating but then there is no trust therefore the entire dynamic of the relationship is different. Not sure if it will work for you but it seems to help people understand that 1 he is not bashing their belief he just believes differently & 2 it helps them realize that if they could prove it to him then he still wouldn't have the faith based relationship with God. Hope this helps :) Good luck!

Jenny - posted on 05/18/2012

Thank you Rebecca. This is what I addressed to him originally, but then felt extremely guilty because he is obviously in grave turmoil over the fact that his sister does not believe in Christianity and thinks that I'm going to hell, so I thought he deserves a decent explanation.
But I think that maybe I should go back to my original position and state that I do not want to talk to him about my beliefs.
So difficult, when religion has been the basis of our conversation for so long. Take that away, and there is not much left.

Rebecca - posted on 05/18/2012

Probably no point. If he, at some point, becomes curious about different point of views, he knows you are the person to speak to. Until then, it might just be best to tell him that, the subject of religion is off the table, but you are happy to talk to him about anything else. Setting boundaries like this can be difficult and take some repeated requests. However, if you repeat a simple message without a lot of emotion or anger, that you would like to avoid the subject of religion while in each other's company, it just might work.

Jenny - posted on 05/18/2012

I read up a little about the founding fathers of America, and what I find they all had in common was an openmind. Most of them where quite liberal in their Christian view and it was difficult to pin them down to one denomination because they didnt want to be pinned down, they believed in a more liberal accepting society.
So I think that it's this open mindset that brought forward change and liberty. But the annoying this is that the founding fathers DID believe in God, so the Christians will always see this as being the predominant factor.

Johnny, I didnt know that Thomas Jefferson rewrote the bible and didnt include the ressurection! I'm curious about that!

Thank you Jen. I will look up your suggestions. I don't think my brother will touch any non-christian litrature with a ten foot pole. He told me that the devil puts 99% of truth out there and puts a 1% lie, and that lie is big enough to decieve me and turn me away from God. There is no way he would ever expose himself to devil indoctrination! He thinks that science has an agenda. It's frustrating when he's spitting out christian biased scientific theories, but I cannot possibly talk about real scientific theories, becasuse they are lies from the devil.

I totally get where he comes from because I was like that, but just more open minded. It took me a lot of searching on internet, reading up on things and trying my best not to be biast about them and participating in debates to get to where I got to, I don't know if he stands a chance given his mindframe.

Is there really any point in trying to explain to someone like this why I don't believe even if he is my brother?

Johnny - posted on 05/18/2012

While Christianity may be one of the main building blocks of our society, it is not as if it was some sort of requirement for the conditions. It can actually be argued that it was those who chose to step further away from the bible and rely on their own moral compass. Look at Thomas Jefferson for example. The man re-wrote the bible and removed a great deal of what is in the KJV to fit better with his idea of God and God's relationship with man. In fact, he did not even include the resurrection. Often the greatest advances of our society have come when people have ceased to put total trust in the bible and the church hierarchy and used their own minds and morals. If we hadn't, we'd still thinkt the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. Much of our current knowledge has come from those who flouted the rules of the church and investigated the world for themselves. It has been the rejection of dogma that has lead us down the path of knowledge and liberalism.

Jodi - posted on 05/18/2012

There are plenty of societies who co-existed in a liberal and accepting way without Christianity before Christianity was introduced to them. It only seems to become a problem when you start to force the co-existence of the different religions and beliefs. To be quite honest, Christianity is one of the worst of them, sending their missionaries in to convert the heathens, who were actually living quite liberally and with plenty of morals without our help. To suggest that only Christianity can do this is arrogant.

Jen - posted on 05/18/2012

Jenny, seriously refer him to some people who have researched this topic exhaustively or start reading up on it yourself. STart with Iron Chariots Wiki and skeptic wiki (can't remember the links but its' easily found.)

Jenny - posted on 05/18/2012

I don't think it does, but for some reason my brother thinks that points to a God. He believes there is something special about what Christianity has brought to soceity, that without the christian morals, a group of people could not co-exist in a liberal fashion.
Tell me again why this logic is perlexing, I'm so swarmped by his questions I don't know what to say.

Tracey - posted on 05/18/2012

How does a group of people agreeing to live by a set of rules prove an unseen entity exists?

Jenny - posted on 05/17/2012

I totally get you Jaime! How confusing? I think its impossible to know what was written in the bible 2000 years ago. The language and culture are so different, hence so many different interpretations possible.
It is sad for one to think that they will only do the right thing if threatened to be thrown in hell.

I love what Isobel said, if tolerance is what Christanity brought to both America and Australia, then why were the natives slayed and to this day we are working on making up for the evil that was done upon them hundres of years ago.

Jaime - posted on 05/17/2012

that's another thing, all the different "translations" of the Bible are confusing. i prefer the KJV to the NIV. sat one of each down, turned to the same verse, and one said the opposite of the other. someone tried to tell me that oh, the NIV was the real translation and that the KJV was just worded wrong, but it doesn't matter, they're both confusing, and that alone doesn't help at all.

i just think it's sad that we need a damn book or religion to have morals.

Jenny - posted on 05/17/2012

If God's perfectionism comes from himself and he is perfect just because its his nature, then his perfecionism is not objective. He could then kill someone for his own reasons and call that a good and no one can object to it.
I just dont see any logical reasoning behind this. But I forgot, God is beyond human knowledge and reason.

I know very well how the old testament does or does not link in with Christianity. The problem is that Christians find it hard where to draw the line. They use verses from the old testament like "Those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children." to justify using physical discipline but they do not see the sense in following the old testament where it says to STONE your child if he is disobedient to you.
Jesus said himself that he has not come to do away with the law but to fulfil it, and then he also call us to a higher standard when he says things like "but I say to you, if you so much as look at a woman with lust you have commited adultry". It really is down to your theological reasoning as to how litterally you take it that the old testament laws no longer apply.

Back to Ananais and Sephira, you say that " They pretended to do something good and take credit for it.". This is the problem I have, they did not pretend to do something good, they actually did do something good, they just fudged the numbers. I dont even know if you can call it hypocrisy. The only thing they did wrong was to lie about the percentage of how much of the sale they gave directly to the church.
Whatever, I know you wont see differently no matter what I say. It doesnt sit well with me that God would punish them with death to make an example out of them. Really, why are they the only example (off the top of my head) that God makes out of anybody in the new testament? To eveyone else he shows grace and mercy because that is his new way, but no to these two, he sentences them to death.
Try and hold that up in any court of law today and it wont fly. Sir, I killed him to because he lied and I must make an example out of him to prevent anyone else from lying.
And then some of the later books of the new testament talk about how Paul himself tries to do the right thing but ends up doing the opposite because that is human nature? Why is he not punished by death when he does the opposite?

I dont get why the God of the bible is apparently never changing, and yet the differences in tolerance in the old testament vs the new are extreme. He sure does change. Before his standards were for you to live a Godly life according to all his laws an regulation (Judaism) and now its enough if you just truley believe in Jesus Christ. That to me is a huge discrepancy not to be overlooked.

Isobel - posted on 05/17/2012

I don't think that I'm denying that Christianity had a large roll in shaping us as a society, I'm just also saying that Christians have put their bumper sticker on a lot of things and just decided that from now on it will BE Christian. Hamurabi's code, Yule, Ostara, morality, goodness, kindness, for example.

Did it shape our society? of course it did...the Christian/European sense of superiority was the only thing that allowed us to massacre the natives and destroy their culture so that ours might prosper. THAT is your strongest point for the fact that Christianity shaped our nations.

Jaime - posted on 05/17/2012

so for some reason there's an ad on my current page saying "Earn a Bible Degree: study the bible online. Earn a degree today." maybe that will answer your question. lol jk.



i hate religious debates with family members. they always want to know why i don't go to church and then when i say it's because the people there are fake as hell they're like, well you're not going for the people are you? yeah, actually, i would be, seeing how church is supposed to be a fellowship of others of that religion but when all those people in that religion are total hypocrites it's kind of hard to get the most out of it.



but to be more on topic...i may be totally wrong but this is just what i got out of history classes. people in Europe didn't like the Catholic Church. some dood found a "new land." the governments of Europe wanted to colonize this new land. the people who didn't like the Church figured what the hey, we'll do it, so we can get away from the Church! most of them were Protestants. like i said, i may be totally wrong and wouldn't be surprised if i was (i hated history classes) but that's just what i got out of it.



as for the US laws and such, i think that the majority of them are based on the ten commandments, and there's nothing wrong with that, if everyone followed those then we'd all be doing dandy, but other than that it was made a rule way the hell back then to keep church and state separate, which means our laws are not supposed to be so influenced by religion. they still are, because we get all these religious leaders, which is kind of irritating, but for the most part they shouldn't be. a Christian person should not have any more sway in government than a Muslim or Hindu person would have, imo. just because you follow a different road than others does not mean you're a bad person or would make bad choices.



and yes, look up some stuff about the Crusades and the witch hunts and slavery and all that shit. doesn't sound too appealing to me either.



eta: and oh shit, i totally forgot about the native Americans who were already here that these Christians gave smallpox-infested blankets to to wipe them out.



come to think of it, yeah, that's pretty liberal, ain't it? totally left-wing of what we'd do today. damn colonists, lol.

Tracey - posted on 05/17/2012

Jenny, and Jen, you do realize the parts of the Bible you're objecting to are the parts of *Judaism*, right? That "suffer not a witch to live" is in the Torah. And Christians are released from following the Torah, although parts of it are a pretty good idea (like not eating pork in the days before thermometers and good anti-parasitic drugs, washing your hands before you eat--really, that's in there--and washing your hands and clothes after handling dead bodies).

Assuming there is a God, and that He's THE God, and not just "a" God, and assuming He really loves mankind, don't you think He'd get pretty ticked off if He continually told people what His preferences are, what He's like, withheld bad things that could have happened sometimes, gave them bumper crops other times, and then those people turned around and decided to make statues and worship them instead? That's what happened all over the area of Israel. When He promised to give that land to them, He knew that if Abraham's family intermarried with the natives, they'd want to follow the ways of their spouses, and it would also cause problems of inheritance, so He told Joshua to clear them all out. In the case of one town that came to Joshua and asked him not to destroy them and they'd follow Jewish customs and serve them, they *weren't* destroyed, and God didn't punish Joshua for not destroying them.

If God is where the idea of perfection comes from (which Jews and Christians both believe)--that it's not something he chooses to do but just *is*, then the idea of "wrong" is necessarily something that doesn't have its roots in him. He's perfect in every part of himself, complete in every part of himself, so that makes anything not originating in him something that doesn't have its roots in him.

In the case of Ananais and Sephira, they were supposedly believers in Christ, meaning they believed he was God who had taken on human form. They were supposedly talking to him daily, and supposedly trying to do what he wanted with every choice they made, and not trying to take any credit if good happened as a result. And what did they do? They pretended to do something good and take credit for it. You know how upset people get about hypocrites? So does God. A lot of the times Jesus got really sarcastic or upset was when he was dealing with hypocrites. And in this case, he made an example of them. I doubt non-believers would have gotten such an immediate reaction.

With Elisha, he was an acknowledged leader in Israel and even respected in surrounding nations. So he's mobbed by a bunch of jr. high-aged boys, who could have easily overpowered him. I don't think he said "send bears" but "these kids are not following your ways, do something!" and bears were what happened. Remember, this was in an age when kings would sacrifice their own kids to make a battle go their way--not Israelites, but the other nations around them. And women were treated like cattle, and some peoples exposed unwanted infants. It wasn't Soho or the Beltway or a nice Chicago suburb, where kids get obese because their parents are too scared to let them play in their own yards! It was just a lot rougher time in history. Telling those high school boys "You can't use your stylin' donkey blanket for a week" probably would have made no impression whatsoever. Using today's sensibilities to judge things that happened millenia ago in a completely different culture doesn't yield results that make much sense.

Jenny - posted on 05/17/2012

It was founded as a convict settlement, but once it became into an actual nation was it founded on christian principles? I might have to google that when i get round to it.

Jodi - posted on 05/17/2012

Actually, Australia was founded as a convict settlement. Christianity had nothing to do with it other than it happened to be the religion of many of the founders.

Jenny - posted on 05/17/2012

Tracey R, do you think Elijah was a man of God? I find this story fascinating, because God actually came to Elijah's aid to get back a pack of boys for teasing him about his bold hair. Really, is God that petty??



"23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria." - 2 Kings, 2:23-25



There are many instances in the bible where it's Gods will to do bad things. You know, as a Christian the story of how Ananias and Saphira were killed instantly for lying in the new testament scared me. As a non-christian, I can not get my head around why God would kill them for lying! I cannot excuse that type of extreme punishment for something as trival as a half lie. That is worse than the Taliban cutting off someones hand for stealing. Really, is God that vengeful?



Anyway, that's off topic.

Jenny - posted on 05/17/2012

I sort of agree with Johnny (with my rough knowledge in history) and think that you cannot deny the Christian influence on our soceity, that would be denying part of history. I wish it wasn't that way, but I do think that might be just wishful thinking.

I personally am fine with Christianity being the start of current civilisation and it not changing the fact that I do believe in a Biblical God, because I dont believe that the bible is perfect, and without that, to me Christianity falls on its head.

How do I argue this point with a Christian who sees it as being ignorant to not acknowledge that Christianity (in all its variety of shades and colours) having had such a wide influence on the progresiveness of our liberal culture, is evidence for the reality of God?

Jen - posted on 05/17/2012

If you slap a label on a Honda that says "Landrover", is that Honda then a Landrover? That's how I feel about people who call themselves Christians, but then go out and do things that are completely against what the Bible says is right to do/not do.
---
Ah but the atrocities we talk about (Inquisition, etc.) stem precisely from the Bible. You cannot avoid the part of not suffering a witch to live and to murder heretics simply because they dont' gel with the parts that make you comfortable.

Tracey - posted on 05/17/2012

I hear the "but look what the Catholic church did during the Inquisition/Crusades" all the time as finger-pointing about how bad Christians are (but oh, don't talk about killing your daughter because she got raped--and that's going on today, and NOT by Christians).



If you slap a label on a Honda that says "Landrover", is that Honda then a Landrover? That's how I feel about people who call themselves Christians, but then go out and do things that are completely against what the Bible says is right to do/not do.



Christians are Christ-followers. Because your parents called themselves Christians, or because you (or they) attended church with some regularity, or because you live in a country that is officially Christian, doesn't make you a Christian. It's not just a label.



And that's the problem, because to those people out there who have done all of those atrocities, it *is* just a label. Then other people look at the ones who *are* out there being generous to people they don't know or don't even like, those who do things like throw birthday parties for hookers (true story), and lump them in with the ones who killed entire villages with the label of "Christian" on their flags.



So yes, I think the *real* Christians have had a lot to do with the way America and Australia are. Real Christians are the ones that will bring dinner to the family of someone they don't know because they heard that the family has someone who is in the hospital; they're the ones that do bake sales to buy a solar-powered water pump for a tiny village in Africa; they're the ones that take vacation days to go clean up after a tornado several states away; they're the ones that invite the 9-year-old neighborhood vandal into their homes after school and give him dinner and give him the stability in his life his drugged-out parents couldn't. Yes, people other than real Christians do this, too. Christians, on top of this, believe in a real, living God, many times because they've had a personal experience that could not be explained any other way. We've experienced undeserved love, so they seek to pass it on.



I wish Hollywood understood this. They tend to be the ones who see the labels and don't look beneath them.

Johnny - posted on 05/17/2012

I agree that many of the central tenets that make up our society were in existence long before Christianity, and also exist in many other cultures and traditions. However, I think we are defining "Christianity" to narrowly. To suggest that the revolutionary forces of the French revolution were secular is a serious mis-reading of history IMO. They may have rejected the king as one of God's representatives on earth, but it can easily be argued that they were coming simply from a different philosophy of Christianity, not from a secular stance.

For example, Russian revolutionaries frequently stemmed from different sects of Christianity which stood in opposition to the Orthodox church and its hierarchy. When we think of the Russian revolution, we think of communism and atheism. But the revolution's roots were in Christian sects that rejected the preeminence of the Orthodox hierarchy. It is simply that the Communist won out in the very end. Today the Russian revolution is viewed through a lens of being anti-Christian. But it's roots and much of the philosophy actually stemmed from a different stream of Christian thinking.

Sort of like how current there is this thing that seems to be going on in America about what "real Christians" are. I see this all the time in internet chat forums and comment boards. This assertion that "real American Christians" are conservative/Republicans, anti-gay, anti-abortion, yadda yadda yadda. It comes from people who hold those values and wish to define those that do not share those beliefs as not being Christians. However, there is at least a large minority, if not the majority, of Americans who define themselves as Christians who do not follow all or any of that set of things that some people think has to do with Christianity.

It is such a broad thing, that to define what is "Christian" thinking, philosophy, politics, etc. simply by what the elites or powerful define it as is not accurate. Much of what formed America's political landscape was Christians revolting against other Christians.

As an agnostic atheist, I think it is important to recognize history for what it is. It is necessary not to allow my viewpoints to cloud what actually happened historically. Simply because our history is Christian, Greek, Roman, etc. etc. does not mean that I have to subscribe to all of those beliefs, philosophies etc. I should know how and why we got here, but I don't need to believe in it all myself.

Isobel - posted on 05/17/2012

The three pillars of Western society are Law (Roman), Government/Democracy (Greece), and Christianity. So...in a way I suppose Christianity has something to do with how we have shaped our society.

Personally, I think our "liberal democracy" was just as shaped by the french revolution where the people stood up in a decidedly anti-Christian, secular fashion against the tyranical rule of monarchy's who were known to represent God's man on earth and demand their right to govern themselves.

I also think that if you look at Christianity and how it influenced how we developed as a society, you'll find that many of the tenets that we hold sacred to our society are, yes, a part of the bible, but were also in existence LONG beforehand. The ten commandments, for example (I think) were part of Hammurabi's code which was put up on display in Egypt as the world's first example of written code of law...maybe Moses saw them from the mountain top ;)

Johnny - posted on 05/17/2012

This is going to be a shocker. I actually agree with him. Christianity has been the central foundation of most of current Western politics, history, and philosophy. Now, while Christian thinkers have created a society focused on respect for those around you and the Golden Rule, other Christians have been responsible for some pretty nasty stuff. But that's really the nature of humanity, I'd challenge anyone to find a society where there aren't some people doing great things and other people doing terrible things. Without religion, this would be no different. I do think the "liberal" tradition in American society came from a portion of the Christian thinkers in the nation. I would not agree that American Christianity is overwhelmingly of this persuasion, but that those who were amongst the elite policy makers, philosophers, and educators shared an enlightenment philosophy grounded in Christian thought.

But I have two important notes to my thoughts, the first being that this doesn't make America a "Christian" nation. Those leaders, as grounded as they were in Christian traditions did not even have that intention. The book Jen suggested is a good read and really offers excellent arguments against that "Christian nation" bullshit.

The second thought is that it doesn't matter. All of my ancestors were Christians. They came from nations (Norway, Scotland, England) that all -at least until very recently- had Christianity as the state religion. Growing up in Canada, the nation is overwhelmingly Christian and its laws based on Christian philosophy. But that doesn't mean that I can not move beyond what my ancestors thought or believed. It is important to acknowledge exactly what got us to where we are. But, that doesn't mean that we should not evolve, develop and expand our ways of thinking. Besides, I simply just do not believe in God. It just does not exist as a truth for me. So it would be impossible to just start believing in it simply because it was a building block of my nation's success. I don't even see it as a building block for my nation's future.

Firebird - posted on 05/17/2012

In addition to Jen's suggestion, if you want some christian history to shut your brother up google up some information on christian intolerance, the burning times, and christian history. There won't be a lot of liberty or acceptance there. Some of the most atrocious acts in history were done in the name of god. Google recent acts of christian intolerance as well. Christianity has nothing to do with the 'liberal' society you live in.

Ooo - posted on 05/17/2012

Many of the land mark cases that established the rule of law even quoted from the bible or biblical ideas. Most of these judgements came about in jurisdictions where there is no separation of church and state and they were borrowed by American courts. American law is referred to as a system of English common law. English common law is bible based.

The principal of loving your neighbor helped to create liberal society. When the west was cruel it was because this principal wasn't followed. The principal encourages people to agree to disagree, not to persecute each other. If everyone followed this principal given by Jesus then society would be perfect, but all people will never follow it and some of those will come to power from time to time. Society will never be perfect for this reason, but the western system of law is mostly based on the neighbor principal and it's a heck of a lot better than societies that are based on different systems of law. Individual laws are sometimes passed that don't reflect this, but the rule of law does.

Jen - posted on 05/17/2012

He coudl not be more wrong. His understanding of history is highly flawed for the US specifically. He should look for a book called, "Liars for Jesus" by Chris Rodda. I know the author personallly. She did exhaustive research into the men who founded the US (can't speak for Australia) and found that it simply was not based on Christianity.

Point out the Treaty of Tripoli as a starting point.

However if he wants a real-world example - try Norway.