do you think breastfeeding after 1 is ok?

Karla - posted on 04/12/2012

I apologize for the length of my post. I thought about editing it down, but decided to spill it all out there. I hope it's not too much to read.



Meme “ As a whole, I have an issue with anyone that dictates only one way is best and frowns upon those that have no choice (or does choose) to do it another way.”



”Would you feel the same way if there was a pro-formula organization out there dictating in the same way as LLL (other than the manufacturers)?”



Sorry, but I am most assuredly counting manufacturers, they went for YEARS telling women and doctors that formula was the superior food and as good as breast milk, and as it’s been discussed here we know they were wrong! How can you not count them? (rhetorical question.)



LLL operates with volunteer moms, no CEO’s or salesmen or advertisements; anyone who talks to a LLL Leader went to them.



” It just should NOT be jammed down everyone's throat via media sources.”



When and where does LLL jam their message down anyone’s throat via media sources? Good grief you do like to be dramatic. I’ve never heard anyone say they thought it was jammed down their throat, and you went from thinking they were a little extreme to saying they jam it down your throat? Come off it Meme, you just like being on a soap box.



You say LLL is a good organization and then you trash the hell out of them? Nice. And all based on hearsay. Good grief, do you want to win this debate so badly that you would dissuade moms from seeking help from a organization in which you “believe in what they stand for?” - I say that because your bashing of LLL far outweighs your praise.



”As a whole, this organization is very biased, yes, they are all for breastfeeding but, that does not mean they gain an advantage by dissing mother's choices outside of their beliefs.”



Again?

Okay, the sole purpose of LLL being organized was to help support and educate mothers about breastfeeding, of course they are biased.



”Every single excerpt I got in the mail, along with samples, specifically said, breastmilk is best BUT when it cannot be chosen, their formula was the next best thing”



Guess what? The government has restricted formula companies from saying they are best because it is false advertising… but formula companies most definitely did say that. It is recommended that they not advertise at all, but they are not following that directive.



Having been a part of the LLL organization, I will add that their dedication for empathy, communication, education, and acceptance is wonderful. While I worked with them, I never felt that the organization supported judgment within its ranks in any way, and I’m sorry if any Leader is representing the organization in that way.



”And who gives a crap, Laura. Seriously.”

Good grief again Meme… what the heck?



”If anyone looks down on a mother because they chose not to breastfeed, then I hope that person doing the shunning, realizes that they just may be in a situation someday too, that another is not going to think highly of their choices.”



See, I don’t know where that comes from – somewhere in your convoluted logic you think someone here is looking down on others for not bfing? I haven’t seen it, no one is saying it, and why are you bringing it up? (rhetorical!)



” I think breastfeeding is coming back with a vengeance.”



That’s not what the U.S. stats show, we’re not even close to the WHO and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations.

http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/data/re...



And not much better in Canada:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-625-x/20...



By the way, the numbers are almost exactly what they were 20 years ago; about the time formula companies decided to start advertising again.



”Perhaps, Laura. The way you articulate your thoughts are coming across with intentions that are being perceived incorrectly”



I’m going to be brutally honest with you Meme, you are not one who should be advising on this, trust me, often, very often, your thoughts are coming across with possible unintended callousness and judgment.



”. I know they aren't as wonderful as some like to portray them to be.



Good god you don’t quit, do you. I “portray” LLL as wonderful because that was my personal experience with them.



“If you do not breastfeed or are not willing to keep at er' while letting your baby freak from starvation, you are a shitty mother, in their eyes.” In your opinion?



Meme, you’re so biased against an organization for which you have had absolutely no contact with, for whom you believe in their cause, and for which you practiced their inspiration. It’s like the voting woman dissing Susan B. Anthony or Alice Paul or Dr. Emily Howard Stowe and the League of Women Voters. You went overboard, just chill.



And know that many women have found a lot of help and support from LLL, and speaking for myself I’m sorry if a few have not had similar experiences.

Jodi - posted on 04/12/2012

"Jodi---If I so much as mention that we breastfeed...I am automatically anti-formula and think that anyone who does use it is a horrible mother.



In my eye's this is not true. Since I too breastfed for a total of 21 months. However, I also formula fed for 9 months. For me, I am very pro-breastfeeding but I also know it is completely OK if I have to use formula. Therefore I would never ever judge anyone for how they feed their baby, whether it be breastmilk or formula."



It may not have been true in your experience, but when people find out I breastfeed (20 months with my first, 14 and counting with my twins) many people immediately assume that I am about to cram information down their throat and judge them for using formula if they do. Which is ridiculous, they dont' take the time to find out that I too used formula with my twins until they were year (supplemental obviously). YOU may not judge anyone, and that's great...but many many people do. And when someone finds out you breastfeed, it's very likely (at least in my area) that without saying a word, you are labled a breastfeeding nazi.

Jodi - posted on 04/12/2012

"Laura---But the VAST majority of moms I deal with who wean their baby could obviously have continued. There's been like ONE mom I've personally dealt with who actually couldn't breastfeed. She could have pumped and bottle fed but she chose not to.



How can that not be read as being judgmental? How is that the same as saying, it is the mothers choice no matter what? That says to me a mother that could have kept breastfeeding or moved on with pumping, chose to take the easy road. Otherwise, what was the point in saying it?"



So, Laura is using an example of showing just exactly how it is a choice. Should Laura lie and say, "Well, the mother obviously coule not physically have pumped and put the breastmilk in the bottle, so she absolutely had to give her baby formula or the baby would have died." Because, if we want her to tell the truth, then we need to acknowledge that the woman did in fact choose formula over breastfeeding. I don't read judgement in Laura's statement, I read fact. You choose to see judgement and that is on you.





"Laura---I said I only knew one lady who truly couldn't bf but she could have pumped read that? COULD have. Not SHOULD have. I do NOT think its my place to say how others feed their babies, I'm simply saint that most women can bf if they WANT TO.



So, if this is not being judgmental than why say it? So someone could not breastfeed but they "could have" pumped but chose not to. So, this is being supportive? What am I missing? She couldn't breastfeed but she could have pumped but chose not to. That sounds like Laura feels she should have because she could have. Of course most women can breastfeed if they want to. What is the point here? Obviously, they did not want to or they would have, right? Why is it important to state this? Unless it is coming from judgment."



I didn't read anywhere that this is what she told the woman. This is what she is citing, as her own personal experience, for the sake of a debate. She is stating, as evidence, that this woman CHOSE not to pump, but instead switch to formula. She doesn't condemn the woman, she simply states that the woman had the physical ability to do so, and so there for it was an option she turned down. Again, YOU are reading the judgement into it. Keep in mind, this is a debate and I strongly feel that Laura is merely citing personal experiences to back up her point that the vast majority of women have the CHOCIE to breastfeed, but choose not to. You are making it seem like it's okay to choose formula, but we state it's okay to choose not to breastfeed, then holy moly, aren't we judgemental a-holes.





"But she could have breastfed, she is not one of the moms who couldn't breastfeed, it was just too much to handle and she chose not to tackle the breastfeeding mountain.



But, Laura, you first said she truly couldn't breastfeed. Now it is she could have? Who's opinion is that? Obviously not her's or she would have. Right? Judgment? Yes, I do believe so."



Actually, she stated that the woman could not breastfeed, from the breast, but that she could in fact pump breastmilk for her child. Which, many people still call breastfeeding vs. pumping, such as myself. Again, you could choose to perceive this as judgemental if you refuse to see it for what it is, Laura's personal experience being used to make her point in a debate. I found pumping too much to handle too with my firstborn. Granted, I didn't have to, so I chose not to. I had the option to breastfeed, that's what I went with instead of pumping. Pumping is a pain in the butt, and I don't see Laura putting this woman down for choosing formula over pumping, I see Laura stating her experience, in terms you don't like, to back up her point in a debate that the vast majority of women do in fact have a choice to not breastfeed. In other words, words you seem to like better, they have the choice to use formula.

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

I'm sorry for being defensive Shawn. I just feel like you are really nit picking my posts and twisting my words.



I don't know what truly happened with my cousin and it doesn't really matter now since my info is useless to her , she isn't having any more. However, I do know exactly what Celeste backed me up on. Almost every woman I know who tried to breastfeed and stopped early said they did so because they "just dried up" and all of these women also were supplementing from very early on. Considering that the human race wouldn't have survived if "just drying up" occurred on a regular basis, I think its okay for me to infer that this was the "likely", not definite cause. Additionally, I know for a fact that my cousin did not try to up her supply or seek her doctors or a BF consultant's advice, which lends even more so to my theory. She chose to stop and that's perfectly fine with me. I just wish I felt comfortable sharing knowledge that could help moms with out feeling like I'm being pushy.



So instead I say nothing and just vent here on debating moms, where its safe & cozy ;) lol

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Jodi---If I so much as mention that we breastfeed...I am automatically anti-formula and think that anyone who does use it is a horrible mother.



In my eye's this is not true. Since I too breastfed for a total of 21 months. However, I also formula fed for 9 months. For me, I am very pro-breastfeeding but I also know it is completely OK if I have to use formula. Therefore I would never ever judge anyone for how they feed their baby, whether it be breastmilk or formula.



My issue is with anyone that feels only one way is best. Only one way should be viewed as the best way. See, it is those opinions that tells me that person has not lived on both sides of the track. Therefore, if they can only see one way as being right, they are indeed being judgmental. Now there are some, that have only ever done it one way but have absolutely no judgment toward another, that has chosen a different route. That to me is an empathetic person. They may not have experienced it but they are able to understand that there are reasons for someone to make a different choice than them,



Also, with Laura's posts, it is in fact someone's choice. You have all said it time and time again, "It's a mother's choice, why does it matter to you?" "Feeding should be the mother's choice and no one else's business." But when Laura says it was the mother's choice to swithc to formula....suddenly it's judgemental and condescending, even though she's saying the exact same thing as everyone else, just in a different way



No it is not the exact same thing. I have said all along that which ever a mother chooses it is her choice. Whether she chooses breast or formula. A mother does not have to have a particular reason or give a good enough reason. Laura made some judgmental statements and I am not the only one that took them as such. Laura has to stick in her comments, "she chose to use formula when she could have breastfed". Yes, that is perceived as judgmental.



Laura---But the VAST majority of moms I deal with who wean their baby could obviously have continued. There's been like ONE mom I've personally dealt with who actually couldn't breastfeed. She could have pumped and bottle fed but she chose not to.



How can that not be read as being judgmental? How is that the same as saying, it is the mothers choice no matter what? That says to me a mother that could have kept breastfeeding or moved on with pumping, chose to take the easy road. Otherwise, what was the point in saying it?



Laura---I said I only knew one lady who truly couldn't bf but she could have pumped read that? COULD have. Not SHOULD have. I do NOT think its my place to say how others feed their babies, I'm simply saint that most women can bf if they WANT TO.



So, if this is not being judgmental than why say it? So someone could not breastfeed but they "could have" pumped but chose not to. So, this is being supportive? What am I missing? She couldn't breastfeed but she could have pumped but chose not to. That sounds like Laura feels she should have because she could have. Of course most women can breastfeed if they want to. What is the point here? Obviously, they did not want to or they would have, right? Why is it important to state this? Unless it is coming from judgment.



But she could have breastfed, she is not one of the moms who couldn't breastfeed, it was just too much to handle and she chose not to tackle the breastfeeding mountain.



But, Laura, you first said she truly couldn't breastfeed. Now it is she could have? Who's opinion is that? Obviously not her's or she would have. Right? Judgment? Yes, I do believe so.



Laura---I just wish moms would own it and tell it like it is. They say ohi couldn't bf cuz baby's mouth was too small, or the latch hurt so I couldn't and it just makes it look like they're uninformed or lazy. If they say I tried and didn't end up making it work or didn't want to got hrough so much etc then at least tis accurately protraying it



How condescending is this statement? Why is it, if a Mom truly feels they couldn't breastfeed because of latching difficulties, that they have not said it like it is? So, a Mom that feels she could not breastfeed because the latch was too difficult to get correct, she is coming across lazy or misinformed. But if she just says, I tried but it didn't end up working, then that is OK? That makes no sense. That is the same thing. Just in one explanation she says why for her it didn't work, in the other she is more general. What mother wants to breastfeed but doesn't want to try? I think they all try and give it a shot, otherwise they wouldn't have wanted to, to begin with.



I am sorry but I see judgment. I am simply telling it like it is. I am sorry, if others feel what has been said has been twisted but I don't agree. I am not going to say something if I don't feel it.



I get the impression that Laura tried very hard to breastfeed (as many of us have) and feels that if someone does not try as hard as her, they are not trying hard enough. Which, is a very ignorant and judgmental view. No one can dictate how hard another tried.



ETA:

I am not trying to be mean here, I am simply debating what has been said. I am trying to understand.



If you do not want to be judged for extended breastfeeding than you must not judge someone for not breastfeeding or having to cut it short. It is only fair.



I think it is great if a mother wants to extend breastfeeding. It is not a choice I would make past age 2 but I am only me. I can only speak for me. I will not speak for someone else. If they want to go longer, great. If they want to formula feed instead, great. If they want to move to cow milk after age 1, great.

Celeste - posted on 04/12/2012

Thanks Shawnn! I appreciate that :) My family is pretty anti breastfeeding so I just don't talk to anyone about it unless I'm asked..



Janice, welcome!

Shawnn - posted on 04/12/2012

Gee, Janice, I really was just curious. You said "I KNOW that supplementing was the likely cause". I asked how you KNEW that was a likely cause. Didn't attack, merely emphasized the KNEW. Truly was curious. It is a quality that I have...

Perception. Gets us every time.

Jodi - posted on 04/12/2012

Perception is in the eye of the beholder. WE are just as responsible for how we perceive things as for how we put them out there. My point was that, perhaps in the stress of the situation, there was no way anyone oculd have said anything that WOULDN'T have been perceived as judgemental. That is the case so often. Not exclusively, but I see it a lot. If I so much as mention that we breastfeed...I am automatically anti-formula and think that anyone who does use it is a horrible mother.



Also, with Laura's posts, it is in fact someone's choice. You have all said it time and time again, "It's a mother's choice, why does it matter to you?" "Feeding should be the mother's choice and no one else's business." But when Laura says it was the mother's choice to swithc to formula...suddenly it's judgemental and condescending, even though she's saying the exact same thing as everyone else, just in a different way. It's ok for everyone else to see formula as a choice, but not for someone who breastfeeds or supports breastfeeding to point out that it is a choice? And as the perceiver, I was able to read her comments and not see any judgement.

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

Thank you Celeste!



Shawn, I said the supplementing was likely her issue, I do not know why exactly my cousin's supply deminished, or even if it did deminish. You made my point exactly. I felt I couldnt offer advice because it would be perceived as criticism. You once again accused me of being callous towards a mother who didnt breastfeed, yet this is not the case at all. I was just giving an example of a time when I wanted to help but felt I couldn't.



But obviously, I shouldnt care to help at all because its none of my business it was my cousin's choice, right shawn?

Shawnn - posted on 04/12/2012

Oh my, Celeste...You can't blame yourself for your aunt making it about her! Because, your statement to your sister, in my opinion WAS NOT judgmental, but true! She's a trooper for exclusively pumping for that long! (I know what those pumps are like...She' deserves a medal or something)

and you DO come across as very understanding, and quite helpful, and even empathetic, which I think is probably what I enjoy about your posts. Somehow, you could probably make the worst disaster in the world seem better...You have a gift with the written word.

You keep it up, girl!

Celeste - posted on 04/12/2012

I'm sorry that LLL was terrible to you guys. I can see why you guys feel the way you do. I hope you know that not all LLL are like that. My friend who's an LLL leader and also an IBCLC is very non judgmental. We've had several ladies in our group that had to supplement with formula and she never said anything judgmental towards them.





I also agree that we do need to be careful on how we word things. I try to word things as non judgmental as I can. But unfortunately, sometimes no matter what I say, it's seen as judgmental. I remember one incident with my sister. She exclusively pumped for 6 months and then went to formula. I told her that she was awesome for exclusively pumping for 6 months and that it's hard to bond with a pump. My aunt, who wasn't able to breastfeed said "Well, I'm bonded to my daughter, thankyouverymuch". I never said anything to even SUGGEST that she wasn't bonded to her daughter. But, I still try..

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Sherri---

That is the exact kind of treatment my few friends had. I know they aren't as wonderful as some like to portray them to be. If you do not breastfeed or are not willing to keep at er' while letting your baby freak from starvation, you are a shitty mother, in their eyes.

Shawnn - posted on 04/12/2012

Very well stated, Celeste. Because, yes, it's true. Perception is everything on these forums...and its easy to misconstrue.

However, I really don't think Laura's phrases are being twisted. It's in the perception of what she's posting.

Posting something that may be taken in the slightest to be judgmental is going to be construed as being judgmental, unless you strive to point out in your post that it is NOT. But saying "I'm not judging" is not the way to do it. Saying "In my opinion" serves me to know that someone is offering an opinion, rather than a blatant judgment. Another phrase I've caught on to is "Its been my experience". That way, you're telling everyone that it is YOUR experience, and not mine, or Laura's, or whatever, again, not being judgmental, but taking ownership of your opinion.

Thats why you see quite a lot of my posts ending (or starting with ) "This is just my personal opinion"...

sorry for sounding mom-ish...LOL...I'm trying to get my 17 & 14 YO to act more like adults towards each other...and so I may try out some of my phrases/comments here first...because I get tired of their bickering, and my hubby gets tired of me being irritable at them bickering...

Sherri - posted on 04/12/2012

La Leche was horrible to me and told me I had to breastfeed my first. He hadn't eaten in 24hrs. They were still insistent that I keep trying and not to give a bottle or formula. They were down right mean about it. I was sobbing, he was screaming from starving. I finally told them to go where the sun doesn't shine and gave him a bottle full of formula and all was good with my world once again. I will never ever deal with them again in my lifetime.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Well, perception is everything and when you are educating or helping someone, it is best to be aware of this. It is all about how you say and do things, whether someone is going to perceive it as it was intended. So, yes, it definitely could have been how they perceived the individuals they encountered, simply because if you give off a certain negative vibe, it is going to be perceived that way. ;) Just as I perceived many of Laura's comments/statements to be very judgemental. I honestly do not think anyone twisted anything. Everything I quoted was directly from Laura's fingers. I simply perceived it a particular way. If you want people to perceive correctly, you have to be careful on how you articulate your thoughts.

Jodi - posted on 04/12/2012

First off, Meme, could it possibly be how your friends perceived the information given and not how it was put forth? Some people go into La Leche wanting help, with open ears, other go into with good intentions, and when breastfeeding ends up being a struggle, DON'T want the help, which is fine...but then why go to La Leche? Also, I have absolutely never, in the media, on the web or in person heard of all of La Leche being considered breastfeeding nazi's. I have heard and seen individuals being called breastfeeding nazi's, but most of the time, those people have nothing to do with La Leche. But, perhaps it's a difference in culture?



Secondly, Laura, I get what you're saying and the more I read, the more I see that certain phrases of yours are being picked out and twisted out of context. I for one have not had a single problem with anything you've said, kudos to you for helping your fellow breastfeeders!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Yes, Shawnn, that is completely true. Never assume. If you are not them or have not lived in their shoes, it is best to not think you know the answer, for them. ;)

Celeste - posted on 04/12/2012

"And, Janice, how do you KNOW that supplementing is what caused her to dry up? Are you also her nutritionist, physician, etc? Just curious...If you aren't in her shoes, you really don't KNOW anything. You can ASSUME, but I prefer not to do that...for obvious reasons."



Generally speaking, yes, supplementing can sabotage supply, especially in the beginning. When a mom supplements, and doesn't pump to replace that feeding, her breasts don't get the stimulation to make more milk. The more you nurse, the more you will make. Supplementing, in a sense, takes away that "demand" thus, supply suffers.



It can be a vicious cycle. Mom thinks supply is low because baby is crying and isn't satisfied, her breasts aren't engorged, because she doesn't pump x amount of ounces, baby wants to nurse all the time, so she supplements. Baby "gulps" it down leading mom to believe that her supply was low.



And before anyone jumps down my throat, yes, there are times that supplementing is necessary. And *I* was one of those moms who supplemented my kids at some point.



Again, this is speaking in general and I don't know the situation of Janice's friend.

Shawnn - posted on 04/12/2012

And, Janice, how do you KNOW that supplementing is what caused her to dry up? Are you also her nutritionist, physician, etc? Just curious...If you aren't in her shoes, you really don't KNOW anything. You can ASSUME, but I prefer not to do that...for obvious reasons.

Shawnn - posted on 04/12/2012

Moms who truly can not breastfeed are few and far between but moms who want to, try to, work hard, etc but in the end decide the effort isn't worth it are no less good moms but they did choose it.

Nice double edged sword there. "Moms who want to, try, etc are no less good moms, but they did choose"...WHAT??? That's a couched insult to moms who couldn't. Sorry, but it really is. Saying we didn't "choose" because we didn't try...or because we supplemented immediately is insulting to those of us...(few and far...yeah...) who couldn't.

I say again, Laura, you should be thankful that you have not experienced the other side, and quit assuming that the above is true. Your body could change with your next child, and YOU could be the one on the other side of the fence.

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

And this comment

And soooo often I do not share any info on breast feeding unless asked because I am automatically accused of imposing my views or not understanding that its a choice or that some women just plain cant.

was more so referring to my friends and family. Like my cousin who tried to breastfeed for the 1st time with her 3rd child, but she supplemented with formula from the beginning. Then around 10 weeks she was drying up and completely switched. I know that the formula supplementing is the likely culprit of her supply problem. However, if I actually say that then, I look like the bad guy who is accusing her of being a bad mom. I do not think she is a bad mom at all, just that she accidentally sabbotaged breastfeeding by supplementing too early because she was misinformed. Every time I try to give any breastfeeding info to anyone I know they get upset with me.

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

As for vitamin D most peds. do recommend vitamin D supplements for breastfeeding moms here in the states too. However, it has been found that vitamin D is absorbed much better through breastmilk than formula so its not as big of an issue as was once thought. Considering the climate in Canada I could see not getting enough sun being a bigger problem there. I live in NY so I do try to remember to give a vitamin D supp. in the winter but I dont stress it.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

But I do think you are a wonderful person, Laura. Just have an issue when it comes to many of your comments with breastfeeding. ;)

I think you will do great helping other mom's that come to WIC for information, on breastfeeding. Just hope you aren't judging them, if they choose otherwise. ;)

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/12/2012

You have already labeled me in your mind as some bf nazi so I cant win with you!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Janice---And soooo often I do not share any info on breast feeding unless asked because I am automatically accused of imposing my views or not understanding that its a choice or that some women just plain cant.



I have not found any of your posts to be judgmental. Laura has gone to the extreme. Things have been said that come across as very judgmental and crossing the line of being superior to those that do not breastfeed.



Perhaps, Laura. The way you articulate your thoughts are coming across with intentions that are being perceived incorrectly. If you truly feel it is a mother's choice than perhaps you need to rephrase some of the statements you have made.



Yes, you said she could have. That says to me, YOU think she should have. Since it was within a paragraph of how you feel, only some Mom's that have medical reasons should be understood.



ETA:

Moms who truly can not breastfeed are few and far between but moms who want to, try to, work hard, etc but in the end decide the effort isn't worth it are no less good moms but they did choose it.



So, if you have no problem with what a mother chooses, then what is your point above? Does it matter that they chose it? You are stating things that do not require to be said. It is obvious that they chose to formula feed, so? Some Mom's just cannot stress themselves over it, if it doesn't work well for them, then some know themselves well enough that it is not worth it. Since, being stressed out just trying to feed your baby is not healthy for anyone, including the baby.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Breastmilk has vitamin d

Yes but, it all depends on how much sunlight the mother gets. In Canada, we must give our babies Vitamin D, if we breastfeed. Since sunlight is what generates vitamin D within our bodies. Formula is enriched with it, so you do not need to give any extra.

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/12/2012

Meme

Breastmilk has vitamin d



I said I only knew one lady who truly couldn't bf but she could have pumped read that? COULD have. Not SHOULD have. I do NOT think its my place to say how others feed their babies, I'm simply saint that most women can bf if they WANT TO.



This mom had a sick baby who had three serious heart conditions, serious allergies to all dairy and wheat products and he couldn't nurse at the breast as the calories he took in didn't outweigh the calories he took to suckle! His heart couldn't do it. So he HAD to be bottle fed.

Now his wonderful loving momcould hav cut out all dairy and wheat and pumped round the clock but she was young and tired and stressed and worried and she simply couldn't handle that so she CHOSE to do formula.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with her choice, it was her life, her baby, and she had every right to choose to do formula and I have no idea what I'd do in her situation!

I do not judge her one bit. But she could have breastfed, she is not one of the moms who couldn't breastfeed, it was just too much to handle and she chose not to tackle the breastfeeding mountain.

Moms who truly can not breastfeed are few and far between but moms who want to, try to, work hard, etc but in the end decide the effort isn't worth it are no less good moms but they did choose it.



I just wish moms would own it and tell it like it is. They say ohi couldn't bf cuz baby's mouth was too small, or the latch hurt so I couldn't and it just makes it look like they're uninformed or lazy. If they say I tried and didn't end up making it work or didn't want to got hrough so much etc then at least tis accurately protraying it

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

And soooo often I do not share any info on breast feeding unless asked because I am automatically accused of imposing my views or not understanding that its a choice or that some women just plain cant.

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

Damn my distracted posting! lol



I definitely agree that in many areas breastfeeding is making a comeback, but many people are still misinformed. Until I breastfed my daughter and started learning almost every woman in family had crazy beliefs about duration even though they did breastfeed for a short time. Example - "breast milk isn't good past 6 months" & "All babies need formula until your milk comes in"



So if formula companies are allowed to inform people about formula why cant LLL inform people about breast feeding.

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

I think the cans are the same its the the fact that they can advertise that is different. I dont mind one formula company claiming that their formula is better than the competitor's formula. I do care that they are sending out coupons and suggesting that mother is likely weaning or supplementing at a certain time.



As for vitamin D, it is only missing from breast milk if mom doesn't get enough. If a mom eats well and goes outside in the sun they are fine.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Janice---People didnt breastfeed for forever and then the moment there was an alternative start believing that breastfeeding was wrong. Formula was introduced to help babies who couldn't be breastfed for whatever reason and then the formula companies slowly found ways to make their product more profitable.



Actually, right about when formula started getting big is right around the same time, they started realizing that smoking and drinking during pregnancy and/or breastfeeding was a very "bad" thing to do. So, many mom's who did smoke and/or drink leaned toward formula. Yes, there was definite misconception, as well. Like anything new, companies over sell and the consumer over buys. ;)



There is always a big hype when something new is available. However, formula is no longer new. I think breastfeeding is coming back with a vengeance. I know many mothers that have or do breastfeed. Much more than there were 10/20/30 years ago. It takes time. It doesn't mean people should be judged. It means people need to be educated for both ways of feeding. Then allow them to make the choice that best fits their lifestyle and beliefs.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Ah, perhaps what is on your formula can is much different than what is on a Canadian label, for the exact same formula. Our two Countries have very different stipulations on what a consumer can and cannot see. Both Countries have very different consumer relation regulations.



We also do not get formula commercials here, unless we watch a US channel. It is not allowed on Canadian channels (Canada does not endorse formula commercials, just like we do not endorse medication commercials or tobacco commercials or alcohol commercials - they are not allowed).



They do put a lot of vitamins in formula, that is not in breastmilk. Vitamin D being one of them. It doesn't make it better, though. Just means you have to give your baby those vitamins outside of the breastmilk.



Actually, yes, I did quote Aleksandra (not Laura) but misplaced your name beside it. Sorry about that. I have fixed it.



See, here it is not common to wean at 12 weeks. We have 12 months maternity leave. So, right there, we would be getting very different information. ;)

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

Meme you put my name next to a quote that is not mine, please fix it. I agree with the statement but I didnt say it, Laura did.



In response to what I was suggesting earlier -

Yes, formula companies do say breastfeeding is recommended on their products, however, they dont say so in their tv ads. I'm don't think they necessarily have to either. However, the flyer I received was very suggestive that 3 months is a normal time to wean. Bringing this back to the OP, people's misconceptions about breastfeeding and "proper" duration came from somewhere. People didnt breastfeed for forever and then the moment there was an alternative start believing that breastfeeding was wrong. Formula was introduced to help babies who couldn't be breastfed for whatever reason and then the formula companies slowly found ways to make their product more profitable.



While it is very true that many women begin weaning or supplementing at 12 weeks in the US because they are returning to work, I'm sure all of them are well aware that formula is available. We dont need formula companies advertising weaning.



And 1 last thing, have you ever watched a formula commercial? They are pretty damn convincing, to someone less educated, that formula is the perfect food for a baby. I have actual heard people state that "they put a lot more vitamins in formula, so it is better than breast milk."



I think its completely fair that both sides get to make their claim.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Laura---Meme you're trying to fight now. Seriously in every post I make I make certain to say something about the fact that not every one can bf, no one should nudge anyone if they can't or don't want to bf. I say this all the time but you choose phrases out of my posts and blow them out of the water and make assumptions.



No, I do not want to fight. You have only ever said you understand that some mom's cannot breastfeed due to medical reasons, and that, you get that. You then go on to say that those that choose not to, just because, are pretty much wrong or not doing their baby any good (yes, not exact words but it is how I and others have perceived it). You have even gone on to say that a mother should pump and use a bottle, rather than formula. That pushes my buttons.



The fact is, it should not matter, how anyone feeds their baby. As long as you are doing what you believe and feel appropriate. It is not your right to dictate your beliefs onto anyone. If someone comes and asks you for advice, then of course, please give it. Otherwise, share your story and don't judge others that make different choices. You will never understand every single situation or reasoning and you shouldn't have to. There are choices and whether you like it or not people are going to use them and they should. That is their right, they are no lesser a mother. They love their children just as much as you (most anyhow - there are some crappy moms out there) ;)



Jodi---

Perhaps you are correct. It may not be an individual census. However, it is how they portray themselves as a whole within the media. I have heard them multiple times, referred to as breastfeeding nazi's. Now, I am not going to go that far but, they have been defined as such right her on COM, in other threads, as well as outside of virtual reality. The few of my close friends were not made to feel comfortable. They had real questions and they were made to feel that they had better breastfeed and that there simply was no alternative. Otherwise, they would be hurting their child. What mom wants to hurt their child? Rather, they stress themselves out, to the point they are on the edge of losing touch with their baby. Now, how is that helpful? ;)

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/12/2012

Meme you're trying to fight now. Seriously in every post I make I make certain to say something about the fact that not every one can bf, no one should nudge anyone if they can't or don't want to bf. I say this all the time but you choose phrases out of my posts and blow them out of the water and make assumptions.



I've only had this job a few months, so no I don't know tons of moms yet.of the moms I WORK with, only one couldn't bf. and no I don't like to pump either. Lol almost no one does!



I'm not some hater, hypocrite, mean lady. You are painting a picture of me in your head that is simply not true.

Jodi - posted on 04/12/2012

MeMe, you said- "Really? Well, I beg to differ. Firstly, I do not think LLL should promote anything other than breastfeeding, they just need to stop dismissing that some mothers, just can't for their own reasons. Stop forcing breastfeeding as the "only" way because if you don't you are less of a mother and inferior to those that do. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. LLL is great for teachings and help, they however go too far. They are over righteous. They speak down about mothers that use formula. Why can they not just promote breastfeeding and stay within that topic? Why do they need to judge those that do use formula? They do it, I have read it and as I said, have friends that have lived their judgement."



I could not disagree more, at least with my local LLL. Yes, they promote breastfeeding, but they adequately understand that some mothers cannot, or choose not to breastfeed. I have never heard of an LLL official state or imply that breastfeeding is the only way, or that choosing formula is bad. Every LLL person I have met through meetings has been incredibly open minded, supportive (even of me...evil formula user! lol), understanding and highly educated on both breastfeeding and formula feeding. So, it may be that you know a few people in LLL that go about it the wrong way, but it is in no way is indicative of all LLL officials, who on the majority, of whom I met, spoken with, chatted with via internet and such, are quite the opposite.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Infant diarrhea in nonbreastfed infants costs $291.3 million; respiratory syncytial virus, $225 million; insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, from $9.6 to $124.8 million; and otitis media, $660 million.

hmmm, tells me there needs to be more education on how to mix formula, which ones are best for that specific child and how to hold your baby when bottle-feeding. ;)

Breastfeeding may also enhance intellectual development of children according to at least one medical research study.

May, is the operative word there. It is not known for sure.

Finally, it was calculated that an additional $2,665,715 in federal funds is needed yearly in order for WIC to provide infant formula to nonbreastfeeding mothers.

Maybe, there needs to be an out reach to pushing protection, rather than having mother's have babies that cannot afford to feed them IF they find they cannot breastfeed? This is more of a national need for sexual education, not a fault of those mother's that cannot breastfeed or choose not to.

For the average family, the cost of purchasing formula is twice the cost of supplemental food for the breastfeeding mother.

So what? If they choose to spend their money on feeding their baby, that's their choice.

Breastfeeding education and support should be an integral part of health care, especially under managed care which rewards the prevention of health problems and reduced use of health services."

I agree. It should be a part of the heath care. So should being taught how to formula feed, again, it is not as easy as one thinks. ;)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

As for the costs incurred to a public for lack of breastfeeding... Here is some info for you Me Me

That is one article. There are always counters. I am just not concerned enough to look, at the moment. I am just sick and tired of people making judgment calls. It really is upsetting. Not one person knows what is best for another, unless they have lived in their shoes. Not one.

I support all breastfeeding Mom's, I also support all formula feeding Mom's. I support feeding your beautiful child, in anyway you can. Some kids barely get fed. Take it as a blessing if a baby/child is getting fed, in general. ;)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Aleksandra---Oh, yeah, and the whole pointing out someones age is SO JUVENILE! For your 36 you don't act any much older than Laura, infact I could argue quite the opposite infact. Come on.. please that is a cheap shot. And you know it!

I was stating the known. She stated she only knows of one person that could not breastfeed. I must come to the census that perhaps that is because she has not had ample time to get to see how many there really are, that cannot breastfeed.

I hardly doubt there is any shunning (re LLL lack of promoting the alternative). The matter of truth is that one can get advice and direction on bottle feeding pretty much anywhere one goes with a baby. Shit! There are instructions right there on the can. INCLUDING a number to call for further information!!!!

Really? Well, I beg to differ. Firstly, I do not think LLL should promote anything other than breastfeeding, they just need to stop dismissing that some mothers, just can't for their own reasons. Stop forcing breastfeeding as the "only" way because if you don't you are less of a mother and inferior to those that do. I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. LLL is great for teachings and help, they however go too far. They are over righteous. They speak down about mothers that use formula. Why can they not just promote breastfeeding and stay within that topic? Why do they need to judge those that do use formula? They do it, I have read it and as I said, have friends that have lived their judgement.

Nope, there are no instructions on your boobs. There are also no instructions on a can of formula. All that is there is how to mix it up. I had great complication with my son, when I could no longer breastfeed. I was under the impression that I was going to hurt him, if I gave him formula. I was under the impression that I was now a terrible mother. I was brain washed and not educated in what formula really is or does. I was stressed for a good month or more, watching his every move, to make sure he wasn't dying from it!

I did not know how to feed him formula. I did not know how long to boil the water. I did not know how often to feed him. I did not know about all the different types of formula (yeah, they say they are all the same but they are not). I did not know what type of bottle would be best for him. Actually, when it comes to formula feeding, there are so many choices, it is down right confusing. When I breastfed, I put the baby up to my boob, held my nipple from below, with my thumb and forefinger shaped as a C and brought the baby forward. Done! No guess work, no trial and error (yes for some it is harder to get that latch, but it is a latch, it isn't something presented with 500 options, it is simply learning a technique).

So, it is actually very scary for many mother's that need to formula feed. I had to research for weeks before I knew what the best way was. I probably read every single available piece of information out there, on formula.

I am just tired of hearing/reading people speak as if they are so perfect because they breastfeed. Those that choose not to are ruining the economy. WTF? I have heard it all now.

Why does there have to be any question on how someone feeds there baby/child? There just should not be. We all make our choices for a reason and damn good ones at that. Just because someone else does not understand does not give them the right to judge.

Many of you do not like to be judged for extended breastfeeding. Yet, you have no problem with judging those that stopped early or didn't breastfeed at all. Talk about hypocrisy. Just do what you feel is best and leave everyone else out of it. It is great to tell your story. It helps others to gain insight and maybe learn something they never thought of. It is not great to say judgmental and inaccurate things. This is why so many people are so defensive about how they feed their child. Too many people think it is their right to speak up and dictate what is best for a mother and child.

Kaci - posted on 04/12/2012

Geebus, women are so catty! I think I'm deleting my account because it never ends up being all that helpful to weed through page after page of blatant bickering to find a useful answer. Can't we all just get along? Respect one another. That's one key to maturity.

People call me a hippy/bible beater for promoting love and peace among one another. I say the lack of it is what is wrong with the world. There's a difference between debating and downright insults. I will no longer frequent these forums for this reason. I've seen too much and it's affecting me. I hope everyone here can find some good advice, but as for me, I'll find my answers and give my advice elsewhere.

Signed, The No-Drama mama

P.S. Patricia Loya, you do what you feel comfortable doing. A lot of people can promote abortions because it's a "woman's body, woman's choice" (my agreement or disapproval of abortion is irrelevant) but when it comes to breastfeeding, that should apply, too. I wish you all the best in your journey through raising your child/children!

Aleks - posted on 04/12/2012

As for the costs incurred to a public for lack of breastfeeding... Here is some info for you Me Me



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/92331...

Extract:

"The cost of not breastfeeding: a commentary.

Riordan JM.

SourceSchool of Nursing, Wichita State University, Kansas, USA.



Abstract

Breastfeeding, a valuable natural resource, promotes health, helps prevent infant and childhood disease, and saves health care costs. Additional annual national health care costs, incurred for treatment of four medical conditions in infant who were not breastfed were estimated. Infant diarrhea in nonbreastfed infants costs $291.3 million; respiratory syncytial virus, $225 million; insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, from $9.6 to $124.8 million; and otitis media, $660 million. Thus, these four medical diagnoses alone create just over $1 billion of extra health care costs each year. Breastfeeding may also enhance intellectual development of children according to at least one medical research study. The potential societal benefits of more intelligent children is incalculable even though it cannot be directly measured in terms of dollars. Finally, it was calculated that an additional $2,665,715 in federal funds is needed yearly in order for WIC to provide infant formula to nonbreastfeeding mothers. For the average family, the cost of purchasing formula is twice the cost of supplemental food for the breastfeeding mother. Breastfeeding education and support should be an integral part of health care, especially under managed care which rewards the prevention of health problems and reduced use of health services."



And here is another one:

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/04/05...



"...according to a new study published Monday in the journal Pediatrics.



"The United States incurs $13 billion in excess costs annually and suffers 911 preventable deaths per year because our breastfeeding rates fall far below medical recommendations," the report said."

Aleks - posted on 04/12/2012

Um... MeMe... why be so unbelieveble nit-picky, it just makes you seem...... bitter.



I hardly doubt there is any shunning (re LLL lack of promoting the alternative). The matter of truth is that one can get advice and direction on bottle feeding pretty much anywhere one goes with a baby. Shit! There are instructions right there on the can. INCLUDING a number to call for further information!!!!



I didn't see a phone number for support or instructions on how to breastfeed on my boobs. Not the last time I looked. And the other thing is, why would a woman who is looking to be learning how to breastfeed need to talk about "the alternatives", the focus is on breastfeeding... not promoting not breastfeeding.... really??? Shit, we all know what the alternatives are!!!!! Unless you lived in the Amazon jungle and recently arrived and the only thing you have ever seen in your life is breastfeeding.. then .... may be.



Oh, yeah, and the whole pointing out someones age is SO JUVENILE! For your 36 you don't act any much older than Laura, infact I could argue quite the opposite infact. Come on.. please that is a cheap shot. And you know it!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

And who gives a crap, Laura. Seriously. You know what? I could have continued with my daughter well past 18 months. I decided not to, I gave her cow milk instead. Why? For me I do NOT believe in providing a boob past 18months -24 months. Does that mean I think someone that does is wrong or odd? No, of course not. It just wasn't and isn't for me and never ever will be.



I think it is absolutely crazy that anyone thinks they know best. It pisses me off, really. You and no one else knows best for the baby and the mother. Only they know what the best way is to feed their child.



I am sorry but not many mothers can or even want to pump. That is harder for many than breastfeeding. It is expensive too, if you want a good pump. I know, I did it. Cost me $90/month to rent a high grade pump (that is only $60/month less than formula). I tried the cheap manual hand pumps and electric ones, they are just that, cheap.



Actually the reason they put so much money into breastfeeding counselors is because breastmilk is a wonderful, beneficial natural product. It, however, is NOT easy for everyone that wants to do it. So, they need trained people to help these people through, so they can and will still make a great effort in trying. It is not because the Country is going to hell in a hand basket from Formula. That is just ludicrous.



I know many more than one mom that could not breastfeed. I am also 14 years older than you. So, perhaps by the time you are 36, you will have met more than one, too. Or, maybe your opinion of whether a mother could have or not, is different than HER opinion for her own situation. That is besides the point. It is not your place to judge anyone for how they feed their child.



If anyone looks down on a mother because they chose not to breastfeed, then I hope that person doing the shunning, realizes that they just may be in a situation someday too, that another is not going to think highly of their choices. Like I dunno, circumcision.... ;)



How about that. How would that make a breastfeeding mother feel that looks down or judges a mother that formula feeds, to have that formula feeding mom, look down on the breastfeeder as an idiot for not being educated on circumcision??



It is unjust to think that one thing you do (such as breastfeed), makes you more wonderful than the next mom and gives you the right to speak poorly about another that does not follow suit or to judge them and say they "should be because they can". When in turn, you may have made some different choices than what the research and facts support.



Also, WIC is an USA thing. It has nothing to do outside of that Country.



We are all mom's and we all come in different forms. We do not have to do what another thinks we should. We all have different backgrounds and we all have different situations, beliefs and feelings. Feeding our baby is the best thing for them, whether it is breastmilk or formula. No one should be expected to breastfeed or formula feed, they should be expected "only" to feed their baby, without judgement.



Aleksandra---LLL doesn't have to nor I believe should it since it is an organisation trying to help in promoting breastfeeding and helping women achieve their goals in breastfeeding their infants/children. I can hardly see why they would "promote or offer advice on an alternative" where that "alternative" is actually the greater majority.



You're right I agree with this. It is, however, not what I am saying. I am saying that while it is great to advocate something, it is wrong to shun those that go in a different direction. Which as a whole, the LLL is known for. It comes directly out of their media coverage.



And Laura, appears to be one of them.. ;)

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/12/2012

< LLL, does not do that. They only promote breastmilk, no alternative>

Of course LLL doesn't promote formula. Formula promotes breastmilk because formula is inferior, they can't promote the formula over the proven superior food. But why would a volunteer support person for breastfeeding promote formula? It makes no sense. I've attended la leche league meetings for two years now and I gotta say la leche league in general is very passive and permissive and accepting of any and all choices for infant feelings. They never ever have made any mom feel bad for using formula, never attack a woman for wanting to wean, and give advise on how to gently wean whenever a mom desires!

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/12/2012

My statements about breastfeeding and national affects come from training I've gotten through wic and the statistics they have about our nations health and the affect formula has.

I wasn't talking out my you know where. Just repeating what I've learned straight from the source.

There's a reason America puts so much money into breastfeeding counselors at wic, because overuse of formula negatively affects our country.



Of course some moms can't breastfeed. I'm not an idiot. But the VAST majority of moms I deal with who wean their baby could obviously have continued. There's been like ONE mom I've personally dealt with who actually couldn't breastfeed. She could have pumped and bottle fed but she chose not to.

Aleks - posted on 04/12/2012

@ Heather Livingstone.

My breast leaked for a long time :-) Even sometimes passed the 12mths mark, although not all of the time, but more on the occasionally side, though I must state that I did leak regularly for well over 6mths. However, this slowly started to go as the breastfeeds per day slowed. So the less per day I fed her the less I tended to leak :-) Now, as a nursing mum of a 3yo I do not leak nor can I remember when was the last time I did leak.



@MeMe

I believe that the formula companies are forced BY LAW to stipulate that "breast is best". If they did not have this obligation I hardly doubt they would be so willingly offering "other alternatives".

LLL doesn't have to nor I believe should it since it is an organisation trying to help in promoting breastfeeding and helping women achieve their goals in breastfeeding their infants/children. I can hardly see why they would "promote or offer advice on an alternative" where that "alternative" is actually the greater majority.... but hey, may be that is just my reasoning.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/12/2012

Janice--- Meme - isnt formula companies advertising that their formula is the best the same as LLL advertising that breastfeeding is best?



Actually, no, they are not. Every single excerpt I got in the mail, along with samples, specifically said, breastmilk is best BUT when it cannot be chosen, their formula was the next best thing. So, they are actually promoting breast first, then their brand to be 2nd best. ;)



Two companies actually called me. Enfamil and Similac. They were checking in to see how everything was going. They had information for breastmilk and formula. They provided growth information. When it was best to switch to the next level of formula, if I needed to use it. In every single call - they called every 3 months or so - they first claimed breast to be best, then they went on to say BUT if you choose not to (for your own personal reason), this is why our brand is next best to breast. ;) LLL, does not do that. They only promote breastmilk, no alternative.



ETA:

I mean I actually received a coupons in the mail with a little flyer claiming I'm probably ready to wean or supplement and Similac is the best choice.



Key phrase there (in bold). It is obvious they were saying that when you are done breastfeeding (which may be now), their formula is the best choice. Since they do advocate using formula until age 2 (if you did not or are not extending breastfeeding into the 2nd year). Since it has more nutrients than Homo milk. ;)

Janice - posted on 04/12/2012

Maybe a new thread should be started for this but...



Meme - isnt formula companies advertising that their formula is the best the same as LLL advertising that breastfeeding is best? I mean I actually received a coupons in the mail with a little flyer claiming I'm probably ready to wean or supplement and Similac is the best choice.