Does God have a plan?

Toni - posted on 11/22/2010

I have to agree with Christina, I found you suggesting that religious people need a "crutch" quite rude, I do not use God as a crutch and neither do many other Christians. I make my own way through life but have the belief that at the end of it there is a God to accept us into his home, heaven.



Although I have to say that I can see why religious people can be seen as "delusional" by those who do not believe as we do. I would think a person was delusional if they believed in the...what is it Krista, oh you always use it as an example...erm the dancing gnome at the bottom of the garden...I know but I just couldn't remember - I'm disappointed in myself lol. So I can see why those who don't believe could think like that. I feel that if you are not even willing to accept the possibility your beliefs could be wrong you are doing yourself a huge disservice, I believe in God but I do question his existence sometimes, generally when I am talking to hardcore Christians who use our religion to berate people who are different and try to suggest in some way that people who are different are sinners and should all go to hell GAH! They give the rest of us a bad name.



Donna, I tend to go with I'm sorry for your loss too, it is inoffensive and has no links with religious or not religious, it's generic.



Edit to add: I feel you are doing a disservice to yourself because if you do not allow yourself to question you do not learn and expand. My belief is stronger now than ever because I have been able to question and reassess how I view things.

C. - posted on 11/22/2010

Ok, Donna.. Seriously?



"But then, why is delusional harsh? The definition actually sounds pretty much like what you've just described. Delusional: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact."



Why is it harsh?? You just described why!!!! You just said "a fixed false belief". How is that NOT harsh when there are people that believe that way on this very forum???? Saying that OUR belief is false isn't harsh? Have we commented on people who don't believe in God and said they were delusional? Uh, no.



And you know what? Don't try and turn this around on me.. You're the one that said "I stopped going to church because I realised all those people were delusional".. And " so maybe because she is not a strong person and not strong enough to take on that responsibility, it is easier for her to think god had a hand in it. I don't know. Delusional again". Implying that all Christians are delusional- not just the ones you personally know- and are not strong enough and that's why they need a "crutch".. And you also used that word.. Seriously, there's no need to be so rude. You can still have opposing views and not be so demeaning towards others.

Becky - posted on 11/21/2010

Haha Donna! I have to admit, sometimes I turn to chocolate instead of God too! God is a little easier on my waistline though!

Georgia - posted on 11/21/2010

No worries, Becky! :-) I could hear the frustration in your post. Kind of like when someone says, "I just hate it when...." or "I could just kill so-and-so". Sometimes the exasperation just boils over and has to come out.

And you're right. It's hard to know what to say to someone grieving, but spouting out platitudes doesn't really help. I've always stuck with plain old "I'm sorry for your loss." It seems safe and honest. Well, no one's decked me for saying it anyway.

I wouldn't say that I'm an atheist, but I don't believe in fairies either. LOL That is a real crack up! It's a bit of "pot, meet kettle" between the two of you, isn't it?

We all need something to help us get through life. I've chosen chocolate.... well, I don't pray to it or anything like that, but boy am I satisfied when I've had some! :-) Probably a bit kinder too.

Jakki - posted on 11/21/2010

Woah - I would explode if any body said this to me... It must be really tough for people who believe in God to try to find sense in tragedies.

I believe in cause and effect - eg "the tsunami came and watched away my village because there was an earthquake out to sea" or "my mother died because she got skin cancer from being out in the sun too much" or my child died because they stepped into the path of a speeding car". There's no plan!

This makes life so much easier to deal with than trying to look for evidence of a master plan.

Becky - posted on 11/21/2010

Sorry about the spelling errors in my last post, my e is sticking tonight!

Becky - posted on 11/21/2010

Thanks for explaining Donna. I did read it wrong. And my post wasn't directed only at you. I've talked to a lot of Athiests who basically do say that Christians are stupid, don't use their minds, etc. It's frustrating! Like you said, we have different criteria for proof of existence. Just bcause my criteria may bee more subjective than that of someone who does not believe does not mean that it's wrong. Funny story, as an aside, I used to have a friend who I met at Bible college. He got into drugs and all kinds of wierd stuff and decided there was no god. He was always trying to convince me of this and that I was dumb for believing in a supernatural being. Fine, if you don't believe in the supernatural, don't. But then, he told me he talked to fairies. Really? I'm dumb for believing in a god, but you talk to fairies? He was screwed up.
You know what? I am willing to admit that I may be wrong. I am willing to admit that there may not be a God, or that he may not be the one I believe in. I don't think there is actual proof on either side, which is why it's called faith, not certainty! I am willing to take my chances that I'm wrong, because, well, you have to believe something, and this belief has worked for me.
For the record, I don't think I ever said this previously, I also think it's very rude to tell someone who is grieving that it was God's plan. I wouldn't say that even if I knew they shared my beliefs. I might say something about them no longer suffering or something like that, but I would not imply that God wanted someone's loved one to die.

Johnny - posted on 11/21/2010

It interests me how it is controversial for the non-believer to state that it is offensive or annoying to be told that anything is "god's plan". They are expected to just smile to such platitudes and let it slide. If I was to tell any believer that I was sorry that their loved one had 'ceased to exist' and I hoped that they would take comfort in their memories, it would be and would be considered to be, incredibly unkind.

Very few people share our same exact mindset and belief system. I personally think it is best to be extremely conscious about whatever consolations we do attempt to share. Heartfelt condolences are usually better than empty promises, regardless of your faith.

Georgia - posted on 11/21/2010

Yeah, Krista when it's 3am it's kind of hard to access my internal thesaurus to find the right words sometimes. :-)

But then, why is delusional harsh? The definition actually sounds pretty much like what you've just described. Delusional: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

So, to a non believer, it's pretty much.... delusional. But I do get what you mean... there is a better choice of words that could have been used.

Georgia - posted on 11/21/2010

Well, thanks to those who were trying to explain my post. You were pretty spot on.

Look, I am usually very careful with the words I use (even in the middle of the night when I wrote my last post). If you read what is written, I only use the word "delusional" and the lack of taking responsibility in one's actions in reference to people from my old church (whom I know personally) and my step mother (who is Catholic). If you took it as a generalisation of all Christians, well, that's not my problem and not an accurate read of what I said. I am not one who goes around making generalisations very often, because I don't know everyone on the planet. Not to mention I've seen plenty of people and cultures who defy many stereotypes in general. My statements were only pointed toward those people I know and referred to in my post. It was a personal account that is relevant to the topic.

Because it is a topic in which I think I actually agree with the OP ("I personally think it's kind of rude to say that it's God's plan when someone dies."), and it is a topic I felt I had something to contribute, I will post my viewpoint just as everyone is free to do the same. My opinion may not be the same as another, which is great in a debating forum. To not have an opposing viewpoint expressed defeats the purpose of a debating atmosphere. For one to not want to listen to an opposing viewpoint, is to deny oneself of an alternate way of seeing the subject. As for decorum, one can only be rude if one is directing comments toward the opposition (which I was not doing).

BTW, Becky, you needn't have apologised for being judgmental. I didn't see that you were being that way at all. You were stating how you felt when someone makes generalisations about your belief system. You're entitled to say that, and I didn't take it that you were talking to JUST me (even if you were)... in reality, I didn't really think you were talking to me at all, but that's only because I don't NOT believe in god. I don't believe in a god, but I don't believe there isn't a god... I don't know if there is or isn't. But, if you and I were sitting face to face and you had made that statement, I would have pointed this out to you.... and apologised if you felt I had been talking about you, because I have no right to. I don't know you enough to make such statements. Neither you, nor Christina, were a part of my post. So, I apologise to you both if you took it personally.

Jenny's right... non Christians and Christians come from a very different mindset. Just as we have different criteria for proof of existence.

Krista - posted on 11/21/2010

Jenny has it exactly right. To a non-believer, it's almost bizarre when people have this strong, unshakable belief in this invisible, unprovable being, where everything, from a rainbow, to a car crash, to two dogs humping, is seen as "proof" of this divine being.

I don't really have an issue with people thinking there's a god, but admitting that there's a possibility they're wrong. I guess I just can't fathom the mindset of people who keep insisting that they "know" that there is a god, and that they have "proof" (which of course, is never actual, empirical proof) -- to me, they are simply seeing what they want to see. So, delusional? Maybe that's a little harsh, but it's not far from the mark.

Jenny - posted on 11/21/2010

Christina, to a non beleiver it IS considered delusional to beleive in something supernatural with no proof. Just like it is difficult for believers to understand how one could not believe in god. It's not meant to offend, we're just coming from totally different mindsets.

Becky - posted on 11/21/2010

My apologies for coming across as judgemental. It was late and maybe I didn't read the post the way it was intended. But to me, calling people who believe in God delusional and implying that we don't take responsibility for our actions came across as judgemental.

Sapphire - posted on 11/21/2010

It's an offensive phrase if you are asusming the person you are speaking to shares your religious view. If yo u know for a fact that the person you are speaking to has the same common belief of "God's plan or God's will" then they understand the sentiment.

3 years ago my brother-in-law died, leaving my sister with a 3 & 5 year old. It was not God's will or God's plan! And my BIL went to Catholic school for 9 years too! It was not simply "his time"-my BIL made beyond stupid decisions that cost him his life. HE did it to himself, not GOD.

C. - posted on 11/21/2010

"You know what? It doesn't. "

It does for some, actually. And it can be quite encouraging b/c then you start to think "Ok, God has a plan.. Obviously this happened for a reason, it seems bad now, but maybe something good will come of it somehow" and then you start to believe that God will make your horrible situations wonderful ones. And that does happen many times. God sometimes takes the bad and makes a positive thing out of it. (And I'm not specifically talking about the death of a loved one, but any situation.)

At any rate.. Donna, I really don't like the fact that you keep referring to Christians as delusional.. Are there some that are delusional? Perhaps.. There are also some non-Christians that are just as delusional- if not worse. Just b/c this isn't a topic you agree with, it doesn't mean you have to be rude to the opposing side..

Joy - posted on 11/21/2010

Ummm, Becky, I don't think Donna was speaking directly at believers. She was doing like the rest of us and answering a question from her viewpoint. When it comes to responsibility, she was talking about her step mother not being able to handle the responsibility of an alcoholic husband (Bonnie's father). I hate the word hate. So I'll just say that I can't stand it when someone who says they believe in God and all that comes with it comes in and becomes the most judgemental person in the room.

Becky - posted on 11/21/2010

Ummm, Donna, I believe in God and I still take full responsibility for my actions, both good and bad. While my belief may provide some motivation for some of the choices I make, they are still my choices to make and to own. I hate when people who don't believe in God try to make it seem like those of us who do are somehow less intellegent or refuse to take any personal responsibility.

Georgia - posted on 11/20/2010

There's been some interesting debate going on here! Sorry I missed the bulk of it.



My initial reaction to the title of this thread was " That old chestnut." It seems to be what people say at funerals in order to make the grieving feel better. You know what? It doesn't.



I first heard that phrase uttered to me after my mother's memorial service at our church. I was 14. Of course I had to be nice and smile, but in my head I was screaming "God can take his plan and shove it right up his arse! Better yet, I'LL do it for him! I'll have my mum back thanks very fucking much!"



It wasn't long after that I stopped going to church because I realised all those people were delusional. I'll believe in a god when I see it/her/him. I know that may offend some, but that's the way I see it.



When my father died in 2003, I heard that phrase yet again. Most of the people were saying it to my step mother, trying to console her. I think it did a little, which is nice, but she was always one to see things in a very skewed way. My father died because he was a raging alcoholic and the booze got the better of him, full stop. She enabled a lot of his drinking, so maybe because she is not a strong person and not strong enough to take on that responsibility, it is easier for her to think god had a hand in it. I don't know. Delusional again, but then some people are for whatever reason.



I do think the bible is a great book of stories however. In fact, I bought my eldest a "kids bible" that's organised into stories not chapters. There's no way I would base my life, let alone my children's lives, on it. It was written by a bunch of men, and a few women, some weren't even at the events they write about! Some of it was written many YEARS after the fact. Now, I don't know about you, but I can't honestly remember much from 6 months ago let alone 6 YEARS ago! To think that this book has third, fourth hand stories... or written forty years after the fact... honestly, how accurate can it be in terms of historical content?



No god. No plan. Some people need the crutch of religion to get through life, good on 'em. I'd rather live with my eyes open and a sense of responsibility for my actions, good and bad. My life is not predetermined, even though at times I sometimes wish it were because then I would have someone to blame and I could kick their ass for all the crap I've had to deal with!



In my opinion all you can do is live a life with no regrets, or as few as possible. And you know what, shit happens... and sometimes bad shit happens to good people. That's just the way it is.



*Edit: Loureen, I would rather have someone come up to me and say "Hey, I'm sorry, but you know that's life" than the plan thing. Death IS a part of life and to not accept it as such is to be blind. (Can you tell I lean toward my mother's Buddhist beliefs?)

Krista - posted on 11/19/2010

The Cylons had a plan too, and that didn't turn out so well either, did it?

ME - posted on 11/19/2010

I think people say foolish things when they are uncomfortable...and I think very little else makes human beings as uncomfortable as death...particularly the tragic death of someone young. It's not "god's plan"....that's just something people say to make themselves feel better!

~Jennifer - posted on 11/19/2010

With all the horrible shit going on in the world, if "god" has a "plan", I'm thinking it might be time to revise said plan.

Joy - posted on 11/19/2010

@ Jackie-Rae ~ Exactly!

@ Krista E. ~ I'd totally read that book too! Can you imagine how much they AREN'T telling us? It would change the face of the Christian faith if we knew what is hidden.

Jackie - posted on 11/19/2010

I don't think there is plan. I think we all write our own stories. Most things that happen has a natural order of things. Kinda like cause and effect.



For instance, If so-and-so wouldn't have spoken to her sister for that extra minute she wouldn't have walked right in front of that car she didn't see coming... And then her sister wouldn't have gone on a down hill spiral on drugs because she just witnessed her only sister get killed. And then her kids wouldn't have been so screwed and in and out of foster care because mom was a druggie. Is anyone following me on this? Let me know if that didn't make any sense.



I guess that's where free will comes in though. We all have the ability to change our own stories and destiny. We have choices every single day whether or not you realize it and those choices all have a different effect.

Krista - posted on 11/19/2010

I saw a documentary once about a book written by a man who grew up in the same village as Jesus. He wrote stories of playing with Jesus, doing whatever little boys did back then.

See, now that's a shame that they didn't include that part in the Bible. That would have been really interesting.

Heck, they didn't even talk about when Jesus was a toddler, getting into everything, yelling "No" defiantly in Aramaic, and stamping his tiny feet when he was denied something. Both Bible and religion seem to gloss over the the human aspect of Jesus, which I think is a shame. They skip from his birth right to the start of his ministry, other than that bit about Mary and Joseph losing and then finding him in the temple when he was 12.

Toni - posted on 11/19/2010

I do feel that some things are meant to happen, sometimes things happen and it is more than just a coincidence, although I don't think all events that occurs are meant to happen, as our freewill changes the route of events and so changes what will happen.



I feel it is incredibly rude to tell someone whose loved one has died that it is God's plan or it was meant to happen and shows a complete lack of understanding for the grieving process. When my nan died I took comfort in the fact she was in heaven and not in pain anymore maybe because of my belief in God, others in my family didn't find any comfort in those same thoughts.

Jodi - posted on 11/19/2010

"Personally, I think it's kind of rude to say something like what you just said."



Christina, could you please clarify what you meant by this? Were you referring to something Dana said? If you are referring to her saying she thinks it is rude to say "it's in God's plan", then you are absolutely correct in saying that everyone has a different belief system, which is why she is making the point that saying it to someone without knowing their beliefs is a bit rude, and can be (and often is) taken the wrong way.



And just the record, quite a number of people here who think it is wrong to say that, or who don't believe God has a plan DO actually believe in God. They just see things differently than you do with your belief.

C. - posted on 11/19/2010

Personally, I think it's kind of rude to say something like what you just said.



Pretty much everyone has a different belief. I do feel that God has a grander plan than anyone of us could have ever imagined. And I do believe that things happen for a reason. In this particular case, the little boy didn't pass until his mother held him and told him if he had to go, she would be Ok. I honestly feel that God kept him alive until the little boy got that reassurance that his mom would make it, no matter how difficult it would be, if he passed away. If you don't believe in God, then this is something you'll never understand and this debate will go on forever. It's either something you believe or don't believe in.

Bonnie - posted on 11/18/2010

Oh yes Joy, that one as well!

Joy - posted on 11/18/2010

I'm with Sarah Bell on her view of the bible. Good moral stories? Sure, some of them. A little history sprinkled in here and there? Probably. But a lot of it I think is pure fiction. Plus, when the church was assembling the bible, there were many books left out because they were deemed inappropriate. I saw a documentary once about a book written by a man who grew up in the same village as Jesus. He wrote stories of playing with Jesus, doing whatever little boys did back then. This book was left out because the church didn't want people to see Jesus in such a "human" light. They felt it would have taken away from his godliness or something to that effect. Now that book? I'd probably buy that as truth more than I would most of the rest of the books in the bible.

Teresa - posted on 11/18/2010

The whole 'God won't give you more than you can handle' is not Biblical.

Krista - posted on 11/18/2010

God won't give you more than you can handle....

That one REALLY pisses me off. So if someone is a strong individual, this god is more likely to give them a crappy life just because the person has the emotional fortitude to withstand tragedy?

Screw that.

A doctor from my hometown lost his wife and his two children in the Air India terrorist bombing. Ten years later, he remarried. Five years after that, his wife found out she had terminal cancer and killed herself in their garage. This is a nice man who has never hurt anybody and who has only ever been kind and helpful to people.

If there IS a God, then I think he's a real prick. I'm sorry, I know that probably offended people, but that's how I feel.

Shana - posted on 11/18/2010

I personally, don't believe in god. So no. I don't believe in "his plan". My dad was in a serious accident and now suffers from brain damage. A nurse said this when he was in a coma: "This is what happens when you don't believe in God." Well, we won't go into much detail about what happened after that, except that I was set on killing her in her sleep. I don't plan on attacking any religion, nor accept anyone trying to convince me otherwise, but I don't believe in him. My personal opinion is that religion is just a way for people to feel better when faced with a problem or something such as death. Just don't hit me. >>;

Sarah - posted on 11/18/2010

Well, of course we all have our own opinions...so here's mine. A lot of people won't like it, but oh well. I'm not out to impress anyone. I think a lot of the stories in the Bible are simply that...stories written by men. A think a lot of it is history, but some of the other stuff...like the Garden of Eden story...I just don't take it literally.



I do believe somewhat in a "God," but definitely not the God I grew up learning about. I used to think of God as some guy sitting up on a cloud in heaven with a checklist..marking down each & everyone of our sins & shaking his head when we do something wrong. I don't think that way anymore. I think of God as more of an energy source...but I don't want to get into that.



I don't think that someone dying tragically or from some illness or disease is God's plan & I sure as hell wouldn't say that to someone who has just lost their loved one. I think more in terms of science & coincidence.

Charlie - posted on 11/18/2010

"If he leads you to it, he'll lead you through it , God won't give you more than you can handle.

Yeah of course those who commit suicide might disagree .

Nikki - posted on 11/18/2010

Thanks for clarifying Becky, I really don't know much about religion and I thought you were suggesting individual sin!

Joy - posted on 11/18/2010

Bonnie, don't forget "If he leads you to it, he'll lead you through it."

Becky - posted on 11/18/2010

Soory to take so long to reply. I was out all morning, not avoiding the question. :) Yes, I meant death is the result of original sin, not of individual sin. Wow, it would be a horrible thing for me to say that someone died because they sinned! Suffering and death were not a part of the world God originally created. Eden was paradise. It was perfect. Except for the serpant. Adam and Eve listened to the serpant, disobeyed a direct order from God, and part of their punishment was death, though not immediate. Incidentally ladies, we can also blame Eve for the fact that labor is painful! Anyways, that is why we all die eventually. Why some die young and tragically or horrible, painful deaths, I don't know and will never understand. But it is very hard for me to believe that God could want a young child to die of cancer or a young parent to die, leaving their children motherless or fatherless; which is what, "It's God's plan" implies to me. He can bring good from it, yes, but I don't believe he wants it to happen.



Editted to add: Although, death could be a direct result of sin. You know, rob a bank, get shot by the police trying to escape, die. But I don't think everyone dies specifically because of their sin. They die because that's the natural order of things.

Bonnie - posted on 11/18/2010

It's God's plan, It's meant to be, God won't give you more than you can handle....these all tend to bug me. Everything happens for a reason.

Jackie - posted on 11/18/2010

touché

Jenn - posted on 11/18/2010

Is it? How do we know?

Jackie - posted on 11/18/2010

Right, but the bible is the word of God, is it not?

Rosie - posted on 11/18/2010

joy said it perfectly!

Jenn - posted on 11/18/2010

God didn't write the Bible - men did. And correct me if I'm wrong - but in the beginning there was incest and we are all related in some distant way.

Sharon - posted on 11/18/2010

I dunno if god has a plan. I do know they have a sense of humor.

If they have a sense of humor, then they have sadness as well. I believe god weeps with us over untimely or senseless death.

Jenny - posted on 11/18/2010

Then maybe god should have put that in the bible when he wrote it. He should have known in his plan that we would find it really confusing.

Cathy - posted on 11/18/2010

Well maybe only Adam and Eve were meant to breed and not their children ... because that would lead to incest ... (ew gross)



And we really don't know if God only made the Universe for Adam and Eve ... maybe he had some other kids in another galaxy but told Adam and Eve they were the only ones, sibling rivalry being what it is.

Jenny - posted on 11/18/2010

That's a great loophole. Those guys screwed it up for everyone so you don't get to live forever. Neener, neener.



I honestly don't want to live forever, that's a really long time so thanks Eve.



You can't reconcile free will with god's plan. So after the garden of Eden incident, did god give up and move to a plan for all of us? I still have free will so that's not likely. Or do I really NOT have free will and the choices I make are predetermined. If that's true then why even bother trying? I'm just playing out the story. But for what purpose? Oh right, god works in mysterious ways and all that so we'll never know.



I'm going back to my gut feeling, it's all mumbo jumbo, bad and good things happen in life to all people. Let's make the best of it.

Jackie - posted on 11/18/2010

only because I'm super bored @ work...shhh, don't tell anybody.

First question: so God made the whole universe just for Adam and Eve?

Second: If they weren't meant to 'do the dirty' and reproduce, then why did he give them girl parts with ovaries and man parts with sperm?

Cathy - posted on 11/18/2010

The world wouldn't be over run because in the beginning there was only Adam and Eve. They broke the rules, got kicked out of Eden and then proceeded to fornicate (I'm assuming not married since there weren't any priests back then) and fill the world!

Jackie - posted on 11/18/2010

"I think she means that it's a result of the original sin. God intended mankind to live forever, but because they sinned, they no longer had eternal life."

Hmmm - but if it was God's initial plan for mankind to live forever, wouldn't the world be overrun? Maybe God made death as a result of sin so he didn't have to admit that his original plan was flawed?

I'm sorry lol, I just had to be a smart ass. This wasn't meant to piss anybody off ;)