For the anti-circs/and whoever else is interested

Katherine - posted on 03/08/2011 ( 476 moms have responded )

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re-posted cafemom



So, yeah, here we go with the circumcision debate -- again. One of the hot button topics in Babydom ... and especially in San Francisco. We reported on this back in November, how Lloyd Schofield (he calls himself a civil rights advocate) wants to ban circumcision and is gathering signatures to get a proposition on the ballot in November.



Why are we writing about this again? Apparently, he’s getting close to his 7,168 signatures, people.



We can put out there the facts again -- that there are pros and cons to circumcision. That there are studies that show there is no medical necessity to it, while other studies cite a reduced STD transmission rate for males who have been snip-snipped.



Truthfully, it all just makes me think these people should focus their energies on something else.



Here's my full disclosure: my husband is Jewish. He had a bris. His brother had a bris. His father had a bris. If we had had a son, we would have had him circumcised. You can debate this all you want. I don’t care if you circumcise your son or you don’t. Just don’t take away my right to do so. The $1,000 fine, the possible year in jail for parents who have their baby boy circumcised -- really?



Let's take a deep breath. This may get on the ballot. I’m thinking common sense will rule there on the West Coast, and the proposition will be swatted down. And even if it doesn't, since, oh yeah, it goes against the First Amendment (the freedom of religion and press and expression -- oh my!), it will more than likely never become a law.



But that aside, I’m reading about all of this, and I keep coming back to what else these people could do, with so much energy to change things, what issue could they tackle to really make things better.



Well, for starters, how about the fact that more California kids qualify for free or reduced lunches now than ever before -- more than 3.4 million kids. That means 3.4 million kids live in families that fall a certain percentage below the federal poverty level. Yes, let me type that again, poverty. Not enough food. Maybe they could help this cause, help these kids.



Or if, instead of gaining signatures, they asked those 7,000 people for a donation of $15. That would be $105,000 -- equal to the salary of two teachers in San Francisco (the average San Fran teacher makes about $52,000). With the huge budgets cuts in California, one of the first things to go will be arts education. With that $70,000, those activists could get a music or art or reading teacher into two elementary schools, impacting maybe 1,000 kids.



So, yes, we’re talking about a hot button issue, a serious issue, but man, there are so many other issues besides breastfeeding and circumcision that should get us all riled up.



What do you think we should get riled up about?



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, BS lady!!!!!!

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Krista - posted on 03/11/2011

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It's actually a lot more than skin, Audrey. Do your homework. Circumcision removes (on average) one third of the penile skin system (sensitive inner and outer preputial layers), including the peripenic dartos muscle, the frenar band, and part of the frenulum.

Please go read this: it describes precisely how circumcision is done. http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/pl...

Your son was likely asleep from the shock.

As well, you're operating on a faulty assumption: you're assuming that without circumcision, that he would basically be guaranteed to get a "series of painful infections". Why do you assume this would happen? Like Johnny said downthread, the vast majority of men in the world are NOT circumcised, and yet you don't hear about an epidemic of festering penises, or about all of these men having to get circ'd when they're older, do you?

Minnie - posted on 03/08/2011

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Amy, the ban is for routine infant circumcision: parents who want it regardless of need- a cosmetic surgery. It wouldn't prevent necessary surgery.



And yes, adults can do whatever they want to their bodies. Just like I can go out and get a boob job, but I can't do it to my daughters.



I think it's a perfectly valid use of my time and energy, advocating for those who don't have a voice. We all focus our energies where our passions are- and mine is trying to get people to stop cutting off parts of their children's bodies without medical need.



A $1000 fine is great. Who thinks a parent should be fined for cutting off his or her child's ear? *raises hand*. The foreskin is not just a flap of skin- it's a functioning organ. FGM is already illegal in the US, and that includes even ceremonial pricking of the clitoris.

[deleted account]

Wow, this is the post that just won't quit! Maybe I've been reading all these posts wrong, but I haven't seen anyone giving out circ facts and data actually trying to push their own opinion onto others. They'll inundate you with facts, to be sure, but no one's made any personal attacks.

Sarah, you beat me to it! I was going to point out that Jesus was a Jew too. :-) so maybe Brandi is Jewish?

Okay, for those who think there are better things to spend time on instead of advocating for baby boys (primarily in the US), rest easy. The rest of the world's baby boys are safe from mutilation, so their parents have plenty of time to devote to the other causes. Or maybe baby boy advocating US mums can multitask?

Wouldn't it make one question the medical necessity of a procedure if the insurance company doesn't cover it? If every medical governing body has even said there's no medical necessity?

I've decided on a new form of discipline. All this talk of circumcision has inspired me. Every time my 4yo misbehaves, I'm going to pull out a couple strands of hair. My child, my choice. And before you all get your knickers in a twist, the hair GROWS back! So it's not like it'd be damaging him or anything.

Charlie - posted on 03/11/2011

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Against circ , against ear piercing .



Frontal labotomy was common practice too as was removing the appendix , tradition doesn't mean it is ok , it is traditional to stone women to death for infedelity in some countries .....again NOT ok , Female circumcision was practiced in the united states of America until 1996 on your average white American woman FOR THE SAME REASONS , Thousands of men are now going through foreskin restoration to get back some of the sensitivity and protection their natural foreskin provided many of which who have completed it say their sensitivy has increased up to 80% something a circed baby at birth WILL NEVER know , some even taking the doctors to court AND WINNING for removal of a functional body part without consent .



The problem is people keep saying " MY RIGHTS , PERSONAL CHOICE "



personal choice means the choice of the person on whom the cosmetic surgery is being performed and your rights end where their human rights begin ....plain and simple .



I think circumcision should be legal for any consenting adult if that is what they wish for themselves same rules should apply for ALL cosmetic surgery .

Erin - posted on 03/11/2011

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Most of you are only hear to argue and try to impose your beliefs on others.

That's funny. There are lots of grown men who feel like their parents imposed their beliefs on them by removing part of their body without their consent.

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Jenni - posted on 03/15/2011

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As I pointed out in my earlier post about UTIs there is no valid evidence supporting the relationship between the foreskin and UTIs other than inproper care of the intact penis. In most cases where a UTI develops in an uncir'd male it is related to other causes. But in primitive practices a doctor may suggest removing the foreskin to eliminate that as the culprit in reaccuring UTIs.



My husband (intact) suffered from reacurring UTI's but it had nothing to do with being intact. He has Chrone's Disease and a hole in his intestine was causing bacteria to leak into his bladder. After the removal of the damaged portion of his intestine he no longer experienced the UTIs. If a doctor had misdiagnosed the cause and prescribed circumcision he would still have suffered from reacurring UTIs and had had his foreskin removed unnecessarily.

Johnny - posted on 03/14/2011

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There was a point in my life, when I was suffering from what I thought was recurrent UTI's (turned out that it was interstitial cystitis) that I would have seriously contemplated cutting off a portion of my nether regions if it could have stopped it. But I never wished that my parents had taken pre-emptive action just in case I ever got a UTI.

As for the "risks" of uncirced penises. I strongly suspect a lot of the problem comes from people having no idea how to care for them. Most of my mom friends (IRL) have boys. My daughter is one of only 3 girls in our group. None of those boys are circumcised and none of them have had any problems at all. I'd never heard of it being an issue before COMs

Sarah - posted on 03/14/2011

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UTI's aren't even that bad! I've had them and yeah they're not much fun! But i would never even contemplate removing part of my body to prevent them!!

Charlie - posted on 03/14/2011

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I think the fact females are 400 times more likely to get a UTI than males really debunks the idea boys need circ as some kind of protection , I mean wouldn't it apply much more to a girl ? ....of course we would never entertain the idea .

Isobel - posted on 03/14/2011

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yeah...I don't count those cause it's because of intervention not the foreskin remaining intact.

Sarah - posted on 03/14/2011

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very true! I've never heard of any intact male getting a UTI or any other kind of genital related infection! I understand that 1 in 100 little boys get a UTI in the first few years.. most likely because they were cleaned improperly.
If a grown male was to contract a UTI from a female during sex, wouldn't he be just as likely to get it if he was circumcised?

Charlie - posted on 03/14/2011

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The other interesting thing about reasearch and studies on the internet is also communicating in forums like COM with mothers from around the world .



How many of you knew 85 % of the world is INTACT ?



That majority of countries not only see circumcision as cosmetic surgery but have very few doctors who will entertain the idea of performing it ?



Doesn't it make you wonder why the largest circumcising country in the developed world still clings to these archaic ideas and not progressed with the rest ?



Doesnt it make you wonder when the other developed countries have the choice of universal healthcare why an American health care system that thrives on the idividuals money still promotes this outdated practice ?

[deleted account]

I have actually seen cases of a constantly infected natural penis...but the mom retracted the foreskin to clean it so that is what caused it.

Isobel - posted on 03/14/2011

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I've heard a lot more people in these threads talk about side effects of a cut penis than an uncut one. I've never heard a case of a constantly infected natural penis first hand...only second hand from mothers who believe in circumcision.

Sarah - posted on 03/14/2011

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oh and i've seen the words 'rare' and 'uncommon' tossed around a bit when talking about side effects?
umm they're not even rare lol! Side effects like infection, reattachment, allergies, severe pain, trauma, are all extremely common! It's things like death and accidental amputation that are not so common fortunately :)
if 1 in 6 boys require further surgeries, that's not uncommon now is it??

Sarah - posted on 03/14/2011

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In response to tabitha on the last page, no we are NOT beating a dead horse!

The prospect of this becoming illegal is very real!

It might not pass this time, but with an increasing number of intactivists it is sure to pass one day in the not too distant future :)

Yeah you're right, we do choose all those things for our kids and there are risks.. well there are risks for pretty much everything in life, but we choose what we think has the least risks. We choose the nice neighbourhood to live in, we choose the best possible school and try to feed our kids healthily. Most parents choose to circumcise because they think that circ also has the least risks. What i hate is that there are SO many mums who say they did it to look like daddy and coz thats what everyone does. purely cosmetic reasons!

Also, yeah there have been scientific studies proving each side of the debate but i believe it is a scientific fact that the negatives outweigh the positives. I don't think that's just my opinion.

I do get the majority of my information from the internet yes, but it comes from pages like the WHO, the health channel, circumcision.org, westmead childrens hospital, health scout, heaps of doctors notes and articles from doctors and scientists etc. not wikipedia lol. its all from legit pages :)

I also get a lot from my maternal and child health nurses, midwives and doctors at the hospital, antenatal classes and a few horror stories from my family. All very good resources for a debate :)

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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Your post wasn't OT, Audrey. It just shows how we have to be so diligent in researching as parents when we have to make a big decision. And that we can't just blindly follow the advice of others. It can be scary having that weight on our shoulders so some decisions need to be seriously considered and a LOT of research done- especially when many times the 'norm' conficts with what is best. I'm not just talking about circumcision. There are so many choices we have to make as parents.

Becky - posted on 03/14/2011

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I was a mom who was going to do it for purely aesthetic reasons. I wasn't really comfortable with it, but my husband wanted it done, because he was, and because he didn't want the boys to be different from everyone else - although in Canada, they're more likely to be different if they are circed than if they're not! So I was going along with him. However, here it is not routine. There are maybe half a dozen doctors who do it, so you have to find one, and consult with them beforehand. It was that consultation that convinced me I couldn't do it and helped me convince dh. Even though we didn't circ, I have found these debates very enlightening. We decided not to do it because I wasn't comfortable with having a surgery performed on my kids when it wasn't necessary. And because I didn't like the doctor who was going to do it. I never thought about it in terms of our son's rights or in comparison to female circumcision or other body modifications. Now I do. A couple months ago, I posted a thread about this becomming illegal, (it's in the sidebar currently) saying that although I didn't circ, I didn't think it should be illegal, because it was part of some people's religions. I have since changed my mind on that and would fully support it being illegal, except when medically necessary, of course. I think about things I saw in Africa - where they would cut or burn designs into their faces or arms for religious and cultural reasons. I am pretty sure that if I took my children out with fresh cuts on their faces, child welfare would be on my doorstep in a jiffy! So, cutting off a piece of their skin shouldn't be any different, even if it is for religious or cultural reasons. I think that if the risks outweight the benefits, which they do for circumcision, then it should only be done if medically necessary.
Even though my husband went along with me, I don't think, just based on a couple of comments he has made, that he was fully convinced we made the right decision. Until we had to have medically necessary surgery done on our youngest's testicals a couple months ago. Even though it was a relatively minor, 20 minute surgery, it was terrible for us. Even worse for dh than it was for me. When they brought Zach back into recovery and took off his diaper to check his bleeding, the sight of those swollen, bruised balls brought Jeff to tears. He was terrified to change or bathe him for weeks! We haven't talked about it, but I'm pretty sure that if I asked him now about having unnecessary surgery done on our sons' penises, his response would be, "No f*(&^ing way!"

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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okay lisa, you have sufficently made your point and i respect what you feel to be the right thning for your kids. and to jennifer, im so sorry about your experience with your obgyn. i agree that too many doctors try to push their agenda on their patients. thats why whenever i feel that is happening, i back off a little and take thier advice with a grain of salt like lisa said earlier. i have had this happen with my obgyn. the doctors in the practice with my first ob(with my son) were very rude and pushy so when i got pregnant with my daughter i switched to a different practice and my whole birthing experience was so so much better. then after i had my daughter i got Mirena(iud) and have been having problems with it ever since(its been over a year). i went to the doc to tell her i want it removed and my tubes tied instead nd she tried to tell me that the problems i am havng arent from the mirena and i should leave it in. but i insisnted on having it out so my surgery has been scheduled. i know that she probably gets paid something if i keep it in the full five yrs but i dont feel that is right for me so im not going to do it. its too bad that ALL doctors dont have the patients best interest in mind.

Krista - posted on 03/14/2011

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i mean, if they passed a law saying that you HAD to circ your sons at birth or pay a fine and go to jail, you would be outraged right? or would you abandon all your beliefs and obey the law? its different when the shoe is on the other foot insnt it? thats what i thought.



We're not just talking legalities, though. We're also talking about ethics. You've got the law, you've got parents' rights to do what they feel is best, and then you've got what is RIGHT.



The law is subject to trends and fads and political pressures and lobbyists. Parents doing what they feel is best...well, parents can only work with what they know, right? My mom used to ride in the car with me in her lap when I was a baby. She was only doing what she felt was right -- that's just what everybody DID back then. Was it right? Hell, no. Do I blame her or judge her? No -- she was doing what she felt right at the time. Would I condone her advising a young mother today to ride in the car with a baby on her lap? Of course not.



It is okay to look back at an action and say, "Knowing what we know now, that was not the right thing to do." It does not mean that we're shitting on parents who did what they did -- it simply means that we're saying, "Okay. We DO have more information on this now, and we need to take that into account. Clinging to the old way of doing things, and denying this new information, is not helping ANYBODY."



And then there is what is right -- and that is respecting the basic human rights of our children. And one of those rights is for them to not be subjected to surgeries if they're not medically warranted.



If what is right coincides with the law of the land, then great. If what is right is in conflict with the law of the land, then ethically, that law should be changed. And this is what is being proposed.

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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just because you listen to the advice of medical proffessionals doesnt mean you have to do what they say.

No kidding. That was my point. But prior you said that we weren't trusting doctors to give us unbiased information. We don't need to get into the specifics of CIO- I was merely demonstrating how doctors don't always give accurate information. Circumcision is not exempt.

Female circumcision is already illegal here. I see no reason at all why male circumcision should not be. I don't feel my rights to cut off my daughter's foreskin have been taken away. Because I don't have the right to do that. Not ethically.

Jenni - posted on 03/14/2011

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My OBGYN was pushing me induce twice before I was at 42 weeks. Not because there was any medical reason to. Both of my pregnancies were extremely healthy. My children were experiencing no signs of fetal stress. The reason she was pushing for it was to suit *her* schedule. Only after I refused with my second to be induced early (complications with my first induction, resulting in fetal stress and emergency c-section) and to wait as long as hospital policy would allow me. My OBGYN revealed she was pushing me to induce to suit her own agenda. Well, I'm really busy that weekend so there might be a good chance I won't be the one delievering you.



Funny because she wasn't there to deliever my first and I took her advice on when to be induced.



My family doctor is the one who told me to pull back the foreskin on my infant son to clean him. He also told my husband over and over again that his inability to eat was due to a sensitive *tummy*. It wasn't until my 6"4 husband weighed 140lbs before he was sent to a specialist and was diagnosed with Chrones Disease.



So in my experience doctors aren't always right and they don't *always* have your best interest at heart. They're human and occasionally promote their own agenda or opinions.



As parents we are pulled this way and that when it comes to our parenting decisions: Cry it out? Co-sleep? Formula? Breastmilk? Spank? Time-outs?

I respect everyone's decision when it comes to their family. If it's not abuse. It's your choice as a parent to do what you feel is best for your family.



I've found COM to be an excellent resource for mothers to help make better informed parenting choices. Through other mother's experiences and research. It encourages me to question my parenting choices and to do my own research. The more sources of information I have; I believe, will help me to make less biased choices for my family. Sometimes it helps to have my opinions challenged to:

a) research information myself

b) question my choice

c) be more confident in my decision



Sorry to take this off topic of the OP. :)

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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lisa- you take both opinions and form your own or you seek another opinion.

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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first of all, no one makes decisions for me. why would anyone let someone do that. as for the CIO thing, you arent supposed to let your kid CIO for hours and it has nothing to do with manipulation and that was a decision we made on our own because no one was getting any sleep. and it doesnt take long to sleep train your baby, only a few days, and its well worth it. and no one told us to have our son circd. we decided that on our own too. just because you listen to the advice of medical proffessionals doesnt mean you have to do what they say. for example, my pediatrician says that when your kid turns 1 you should put them on 2%milk instead of whole milk. i strongly disagree so i go ahead and give them whole milk. its not like they are an unhealthy wieght so im going to do what i feel is right. just like i felt that circing was the right thing for our family. note, i said OUR family not ALL families. you are the parent of your own child so it is up to YOU not the government or anyone else to decide what is best for your family. So i dont think it is the governments place to dictate whether or not we have the right to have our boys circd. they have no right to make it illegal and they have no right to fine us for it and they have absolutly no right to throw us in jail for it. there are some lines you just dont cross and i have a feeling that if they passed this law they would have a whole new slew of problems on their hands because of it. i mean, if they passed a law saying that you HAD to circ your sons at birth or pay a fine and go to jail, you would be outraged right? or would you abandon all your beliefs and obey the law? its different when the shoe is on the other foot insnt it? thats what i thought. and because i know this is going tobe brought up again, circing your son is not even near the issue of child abuse so dont even go there.

[deleted account]

You can't put 100% faith in ANYONE to make a decision for you. Thats why people ask for second opinions from a different doctor all the time Audrey.

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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No- you need to take things with a grain of salt. I really am NOT anti-doctor. But I have been on the receiving end of too much misinformation out of their mouths for me to willy-nilly do whatever they say. Cut off part of my baby's penis because my OB says too? Stop nursing because my OB says to? Let my 7 month old CIO for hours on end because her pediatrician tells me she's manipulating me? Need I get into how I was induced with a drug that shouldn't have been used?



Don't fool yourself. You really do need to do your own research. Doctors are human, and some let their personal biases get in the way of accurate advice. Some aren't aware of the most current information on a particular topic.



What do you do when one doctor tells you that circumcision isn't necessary and that 85% of the males on this planet are intact and perfectly healthy, and another doctor tells you that if you don't circumcise your child will suffer all sorts of horrible maladies? Are they both right?

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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lisa-so now we dont trust the doctors? i think that people who start on the whole "you cant trust your doc to give you accurate or unbiased info" are paranoid. our doctors are not out to get us! and i would much rather take the advice of an actual doctor over advice off the internet.

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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Tabitha, we have access to medical journals and peer-reviewed studies through the 'world wide web.' Just as doctors do.

Unfortunately, doctors are not always the best source of information on certain topics, circumcision being one of them, as evidenced by me receiving circumcision propaganda and scare tactics from my OBGYN. Circumcision in the US brings in big bucks.

Krista - posted on 03/14/2011

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Audrey, I wasn't speaking about you specifically. I was speaking in generalities.

There ARE some mothers who circumcise solely for aesthetics.

And I just don't understand why any mother would a) put her kid through surgery without doing any homework on it, or b) decide that her own aesthetic preferences are worth those very real risks to her baby.

Tabitha - posted on 03/14/2011

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You guys are beating a dead horse.Circumcision will NEVER become illegal.Parents will still be able to chose what they believe is the best option for their children. People chose not to circumcise because of scientific research, and other chose to circumcise because of scientific research. Both studies on both sides are very flawed. So how can you possibly chose which side is right? We chose the side that could possibly be the healthiest for our child. Last time i checked no one on here is a scientist or a medical doctor, and only research their arguments through the world wide web, which i believe is not a respectable source of information in a debate. We chose where our children live, where they go to school and what foods they eat. All of these could have a potentially negative impact on their health or mental well-being. Just as chosing wether or not to circumcise could also do the same. I am not comparing these things, however when you think about it, everything we chose for our children has potential for some kind of impact, wether it be negative or positive. Why aren't there as many heated debates about those topics as this one?

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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like i said, my reasons are my reasons and i dont owe anyone an explanation. there is a little more to it than asthetics for us but it wouldnt help my case to go into all that again so im not going to. if you want to be sad for my son then you are wasting your time because there is no reason to be sad for him. i am not some terrible, narsacistic mother who just does things for no reason. im sure that you all think that on some level. and i am sure that we parent completly differently too which id fine. so to feed your need to dislike the way i do things, here are some more things to disagree with me about....we dont and never did co-sleep unless the kids were sick, we spank our kids, and we let them cry-it-out. oh my God! im a horrible parent!! please pray for my poor children!!
Gimme a break.

Krista - posted on 03/14/2011

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there are more risks than i thought there were. it is a little scary. but there are risks with everything. my main reasons for doing it was because of family tradition and the fact that most everyone around here does it.

There are risks to a lot of things, yes. But as parents, shouldn't we do our best to minimize those risks, and stop and look at them and think to ourselves, "Is this REALLY worth it?"

And I think that's my main beef (and I'm sure I'm not alone). Sadly, there are a lot of parents who just don't read up on this stuff, and they circumcise for the same reasons you did: because it's just what is done. And they have no idea of the very real risks that they just put their baby through.

I mean, hell, there are women on here who have said flat-out that they circumcised because they think a boy should look like his father. And I'm thinking, "And you put your kid through all of those risks (what Audrey and Lisa just listed), for THAT? Seriously?"

When people circumcise solely for aesthetic or societal reasons, it makes me really sad. It makes me sad because one of two things just happened:
1. They didn't do any research on it. They let their baby boy undergo surgery without bothering to do 5 minutes of research on it.

or

2. They researched it, and decided that their aesthetic/societal reasons were more important than the risks to their baby boy's health. And man...if that's the case, how sad is that?

Krista - posted on 03/14/2011

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I guess we're just baffled as to how you can still be promoting circumcision, after having read about those risks and after having read the stuff we've posted on here. Personally, I just don't GET it.

There are quite a few moms on here who have read up about circumcision and have said, "If I'd known then what I know now, I would have never done that to my son." So I guess it just boggles the mind how other people can read that same information, and read about stories like that of baby Joshua, who died from routine circumcision, and still insist that circumcision is just peachy-keen and a great thing to do.

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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and yes, after reading all the info i found, it doesnt seem to be as important a procedure as i originally thought. there are more risks than i thought there were. it is a little scary. but there are risks with everything. my main reasons for doing it was because of family tradition and the fact that most everyone around here does it. that may seem like a stupid reason to you but its a perfectly legit one to me.

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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the post with the risks was copy and pasted straight from the website so i didnt write any of that. there are risks of infection with anything. and im not getting upset. im just not understanding why my opinion is not valid with you guys. first you are all in an uproar because i didnt research my decsision, then i research it and post my findings and say that it didnt change my mind. so because i didnt change my mind, now you all are going to keep on me because of it. why did i waste my time researching? this wouldnt be a debate if we all agreed with each other.

Krista - posted on 03/14/2011

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Infection of the circumcision site or at the opening to the urethra.

Um, so all of these parents who circumcise are saying that they're doing so in order to prevent their son from getting infections. And one of the risks of circumcision is...infection.

Seems a little ironic, no?

You look at that list of risks, and then you look at the risks of keeping the penis intact. It kind of seems like a bit of a no-brainer to me.

Katherine - posted on 03/14/2011

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Audrey you have to understand this is a debate. It's not a personal attack on anyone, just debating pure and simple. People are going to provide information on pros and cons and yes sometimes it get's nasty when people are passionate about a certain subject. All in all this debate is extremely mild in comparison to others. Everyone has been respectful of others views for the most part.
So that being said, you can't get upset over a debate, because that's all it is: A debate.

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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Audrey, you can have an opinion. Absolutely. But it doesn't mean that circumcision is the right thing to do. And now that you say you would circumcise any future boys, people here are probably going to continue to argue your points and opinions for the sake of others who are reading.

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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Yes. We agree that all surgical procedures have risks. And usually the benefit outweighs the risk- c-section for placenta previa (baby and mother could die if birthed vaginally), cardiac bypass, masectomy due to breast cancer, you get the picture.

But removing the healthy prepuce is cosmetic surgery. On a minor, in the case of RIC. There is no justification for those risks.

By the way, on your list of 'minor' risks- I hardly consider the outer skin layer, or layers of the penis being removed accidentally a 'minor' risk.

Add to your list- antibiotic-resistant staff infection that can cause severe gangrene. Death.

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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just so its PERFECTLY clear....my mother did not make this decision for us!! and she never whipped me with a belt or switch and neither did anyone else in our family so she wasnt one of those moms. i trust my mom a lot more than the rest of you must. but there it is, my last post, an article off webmd about the risks of circing. and you know what? if i did have another boy, I WOULD STILL CIRC HIM! so, now that i did my research, do i get to have a valid opinion? oh and an obgyn did the circing on my boy, not a student. i would not have let a student do that!

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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All surgical procedures have risks. Problems after circumcision are not common. Minor problems are short-term and may include:

Oozing or slight bleeding from the surgical site.
Infection of the circumcision site or at the opening to the urethra.
Irritation of the exposed tip of the penis (glans) as a result of contact with stool or urine.
Long-term minor problems can include:
Damage to the opening of the urethra, which leads from the bladder to the tip of the penis (meatal stenosis).
Scarring of the penis from infection or surgical error. For example:
The entire foreskin may not be removed, leaving portions of it attached to the penis (skin bridge). This may cause pain during erection.
Scar tissue can grow outward toward the tip of the penis from the cut edge of the foreskin. Repeat surgery on the penis may be required to improve appearance or to allow normal passage of urine if the opening from the bladder has been blocked by this scar tissue.
The outer skin layer (or layers) of the penis may be removed accidentally.
An opening that is too small for the foreskin to retract over the penis (phimosis) can happen if too little foreskin is removed.
Major problems are very rare but can include:

A complete removal of the skin covering the shaft of the penis, causing the penis to appear to have been completely surgically removed.
Too much bleeding. Stitches may be needed to stop the bleeding.
Serious, life-threatening bacterial infection.
Partial or full removal (amputation) of the tip of the penis. (This is extremely rare.)
http://children.webmd.com/tc/circumcisio...

Katherine - posted on 03/14/2011

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Actually Audrey circumcision IS surgery. The procedure is the explanation of what is going to be done.

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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What's done is done, you're absolutely right, Audrey, and if you're completely finished having children, the point may be moot for you...or it may be not, because you're posting here, and other people are reading. You also talk to people in real life. Those other people may be on the fence regarding circumcision and many of us hope to get accurate information out there for others to read.



It's not surgery? Last I checked, a baby is covered in sterile drapes, his foreskin is incised, separated forcibly from the glans, then the entire thing is screwed into the gomo clamp (or plastibell) and cut off with a scalpel. Hemmorhage is a very real risk. So is infection.



Not surgery?

Audrey - posted on 03/14/2011

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why is this confusing to everyone? whats the point in researching it now anyway? its done and im not having any more kids. if i felt that it was dangerous i would have researched it. and its not a surgery its a procedure. and everything went fine and he has never had a single problem with it. but for the sake of the rest of you, i will google it and see what i find for reasons NOT to circ. will that make you happy?

Amy - posted on 03/14/2011

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I love my mother, but times change and she had her shot at parenting. My mom's also not a doctor or nurse. She owns a health food store and HAS to be up on medical stuff due to herbal interactions, etc. But it isn't my mom's choice to make.

Having a baby for me involved more research than I'd even known I'd have to do. Vaccinations, Circumcisions, testings that aren't needed or have poor side effects....So many things that I just can't do whatever my mom did.

Like I said before, docs used to say to pull back foreskin for cleaning during those times when no one really knew how to care for them. now they know better.

I don't care if people circ or not, but I have to admit, it really does bother me when people do it "just because". Mom/dad said to, husband worried about locker room and needed to LOOK like something...I mean, my parents were raised in a time where you'd take a belt to a kid's hide until there were welts or a switch and had their butts bleed. Not exactly legal to do that in most cases. times change. Our information changes. And what was good enough for my parents may not be what I feel is best for my child. It just saddens me when people do things and have no real reasons behind it. If you have reasons you do it - true medical, really deeply feel it's part of your religion -[ which...unless jewish, i really don't see it due to so many things I've read in new testament - even Qu'ran doesn't insist on it] or true worries about child's future health....I just don't know why people don't research something that is a surgery. On top of that, a surgery that is considered "cosmetic" that many STUDENTS perform. Not sure about anyone else, but if someone was doing a surgery, I'd hope it's a professional.

Minnie - posted on 03/14/2011

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Well, she gave her mother's advice as her reason- that her mother is very 'up on all things medical.'

Katherine - posted on 03/14/2011

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@ Sarah, a lot of people just assume that circumcision is the norm. I did before I did my research and people pointed everything out on CoM. I bet more people than not think circumcision is the normal thing to do.
I never thought someone could change my views, but I am ant-circ now.
I didn't read Audrey's post, I'm just assuming this is what is going on.

Sarah - posted on 03/14/2011

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@Audrey, i don't meant to attack you here, but you said you circ'd your son without doing any research of your own?
Have you done any research yet?
I think if you did some research, and found some unbiased websites, you would see that there are little to no pros and many negatives and risks.
I'm sorry to be another person to question your decision, but really, IMO there are NO genuine pros for circumcision.. at all!
Wow no research! You were willing to volunteer your child for surgery without doing any research?
If it was a different procedure, would you bother to google it?
I don't mean to offend you but i am seriously confused right now! I can't understand even a little bit, why anyone would sign the form saying you understand the risks and put their newborn baby up for surgery without knowing what they are doing!
Did i read your post wrong or something? :/

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