For the anti-circs/and whoever else is interested

Katherine - posted on 03/08/2011 ( 476 moms have responded )

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re-posted cafemom



So, yeah, here we go with the circumcision debate -- again. One of the hot button topics in Babydom ... and especially in San Francisco. We reported on this back in November, how Lloyd Schofield (he calls himself a civil rights advocate) wants to ban circumcision and is gathering signatures to get a proposition on the ballot in November.



Why are we writing about this again? Apparently, he’s getting close to his 7,168 signatures, people.



We can put out there the facts again -- that there are pros and cons to circumcision. That there are studies that show there is no medical necessity to it, while other studies cite a reduced STD transmission rate for males who have been snip-snipped.



Truthfully, it all just makes me think these people should focus their energies on something else.



Here's my full disclosure: my husband is Jewish. He had a bris. His brother had a bris. His father had a bris. If we had had a son, we would have had him circumcised. You can debate this all you want. I don’t care if you circumcise your son or you don’t. Just don’t take away my right to do so. The $1,000 fine, the possible year in jail for parents who have their baby boy circumcised -- really?



Let's take a deep breath. This may get on the ballot. I’m thinking common sense will rule there on the West Coast, and the proposition will be swatted down. And even if it doesn't, since, oh yeah, it goes against the First Amendment (the freedom of religion and press and expression -- oh my!), it will more than likely never become a law.



But that aside, I’m reading about all of this, and I keep coming back to what else these people could do, with so much energy to change things, what issue could they tackle to really make things better.



Well, for starters, how about the fact that more California kids qualify for free or reduced lunches now than ever before -- more than 3.4 million kids. That means 3.4 million kids live in families that fall a certain percentage below the federal poverty level. Yes, let me type that again, poverty. Not enough food. Maybe they could help this cause, help these kids.



Or if, instead of gaining signatures, they asked those 7,000 people for a donation of $15. That would be $105,000 -- equal to the salary of two teachers in San Francisco (the average San Fran teacher makes about $52,000). With the huge budgets cuts in California, one of the first things to go will be arts education. With that $70,000, those activists could get a music or art or reading teacher into two elementary schools, impacting maybe 1,000 kids.



So, yes, we’re talking about a hot button issue, a serious issue, but man, there are so many other issues besides breastfeeding and circumcision that should get us all riled up.



What do you think we should get riled up about?



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, BS lady!!!!!!

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Amy - posted on 03/11/2011

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And if how you read your bible that's what you found - fine. I'm glad you READ it. Most people don't, they just have been told by so and so that the bible says that. They don't look up original context or meaning of words in strong's to find out what it originally meant. Again with the - as long as you research something and KNOW with all your heart your reasoning behind it, that's awesome.

Circumcision - the concept of it from what I understand - is more a circumcision of the heart - not flesh. After all, the God of my bible - king james version - repeatedly says we are to not live in/by the flesh but in spirit.

"The circumcision made "without hands" is an operation of the Holy Spirit Who writes the inner meaning and truth of the Torah/Bible upon our hearts. True circumcision represents the death of the selfish impulse within our hearts (a miracle if ever there was one!)"

and if you really dig into the bible, strong's concordance is AWESOME.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...
circ can also mean:
1) of Christians separated from the unclean multitude and truly consecrated to God

2) the extinction of passions and the removal of spiritual impurity

http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/glass... is another one that states some of the things we found ourselves.

Paul confirmed that circumcision was nothing (Galatians 6:15) and Christ was all and in all (Colossians 3:11). Jeremiah had already taught that circumcision in other nations was uncircumcision (Jeremiah 9: 25-26).

Paul advised people to accept their lot in life and not seek circumcision or uncircumcision, or slavery or freedom (1 Corinthians 7:17-24).

Paul condemned people he described as false believers (Galatians 2:4). These people were pressuring Christians to become circumcised. Paul was so incensed by this that he said:

I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves!
(Galatians 5: 12, New RSV)

Paul taught that Jesus accepts people as they are and does not ask them to become circumcised or uncircumcised to become Christian (Galatians 5: 6). Paul said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...' (Acts 16: 31).
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Article...

Jenn - posted on 03/11/2011

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Then stop posting if you're done, you've said "DONE" several times now. I am against circumcision and ear piercing - I have 2 daughters and have zero intention of getting their ears pierced. Julianne likely asked what religion you are, because as far as most of us know, the only religion that does routine circumcision for religious reasons is the Jewish religion. And to compare your beliefs to proven facts is really quite ridiculous. How is imposing your religion on someone at all the same as performing a potentially fatal surgery on someone? There really is no comparison there.

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jesus was circumcised because it was the law then.
Circumcision doesn't apply to Christians...

Brandi - posted on 03/11/2011

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well, if you guys are being honest about letting your children go to church and you really don't believe in God, then I commend you. But, most would not.

As for God making children born with it, fine, but Jesus was circumcised. God surely would have told Mary not to get him circumcised.... But, I am done with this. My child, my choice. I chose to have him, I chose to have them circumcised. DONE!!!!

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my daughter went to church before with us and some of our friends. All of my friends here are born again christian, they invited us so we went...

Jenni - posted on 03/11/2011

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I'm sorry but if God didn't think men should have foreskins why would he make men have them in the first place? and why would all other mammals have foreskins unless God saw a reason for them.

If God can foresee all. How did he manage to make the mistake of giving men a foreskin if he intended them to have it taken off?

Charlie - posted on 03/11/2011

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My atheist father took me to church as a child when I took interest ....... he took me to several churches of different faiths obviously none of it seemed relevant or logical to me but the point is he gave me a choice and that is something I admire in him as a person .

Brandi - posted on 03/11/2011

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@Lisa God, knew that this was all going to happen. So, yes, if an angel told me it was GOD'S will and that my son were Jesus I would put all of that in GOD'S hands. How stupid. So, would you go against God and tell him no I don't want that to happen to my son? I wouldn't. But, I have no idea if you are religious or not. To those who are not, then I sound crazy, and for that I don't give a shit. It is my religion, I don't care if you believe it or not. I don't tell you what a sinner you are for not taking your children to church. If you were an Atheist, you wouldn't take your child to church because they want to go. You would make that decision for them. So, stay out of it.

Johnny - posted on 03/11/2011

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It depends where you live Julianne. Some places won't even let teens do it with parental consent. Doesn't make sense to me, but I suspect it's considered a "moral" issue.

Lacye - posted on 03/11/2011

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I was just asking because I have seen some people that were against circ but was ok with the ear piercing.

Jenni - posted on 03/11/2011

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Nope. I wouldn't pierce my daughters ears either until she was old enough to ask for them and take care of them.

It really bugged me when my SD's BM pierced her ears when she was only 5 months old. She ended up having to take them out because my SD kept yanking them out. Actually, this last weekend when she came over she had just got them done again @ 3 1/2 years old. Which is still too young IMO.
I still think circumcision is more extreme than getting ears pierced though. For obvious reasons.

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im nitpicking...
Tattooing someone under 18 without parental consent is illegal. Parents can sign for their children when they turn 16 to allow it.

Krista - posted on 03/11/2011

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I echo everything that Johnny just said. Why should my parental rights overrule my son's right to have a whole body? Yes, he is still my son, but he is a human being, and is not my property, to alter at my whim.

And no, I wouldn't pierce a baby's ears, either.

Johnny - posted on 03/11/2011

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I also would not pierce my daughter's ears until she is old enough to request it, understand the risks, and care for it herself.

The problem with the rights issue is that people are arguing for the right to irreversibly alter ANOTHER person's body for cosmetic reasons. I am totally in support of men who choose to have themselves circumcised. Doesn't bother me in the least. Your children's rights are separate and distinct from yours. They are not your property to mark as you please.

I actually do think that there are a whole lot of issues more important than circumcision to focus on. It certainly isn't something I spend a lot of my daily life focused on. But I do hold the opinion that RIC is wrong and if asked, like the other women here, I am happy to share why. Being concerned about one issue doesn't stop us from caring about other problems. That's silly.

April - posted on 03/11/2011

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All I have to say is that if you think you are for circumcision, but you've never seen one done, then I suggest looking for videos on YouTube. It really was an eye opener for me, what these babies go through. It's so easy to have an opinion, but it's not that easy to watch these videos! (my son is circumcised and I will never do it again for any future children)

Minnie - posted on 03/11/2011

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Lacye- I am against all cosmetic procedures performed on people without their consent. My girls will be able to have their ears pierced when they ask for it and can care for them responsibly.

I mentioned earlier that in my state, tattooing a person under 18 is completely illegal. I see no difference with regards to removing healthy functioning tissue from a minor's body.

Minnie - posted on 03/11/2011

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Jesus was whipped with a cat of nine tails and hung on a cross. Is that good enough for your children too, Brandi?

Charlie - posted on 03/11/2011

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Against circ , against ear piercing .



Frontal labotomy was common practice too as was removing the appendix , tradition doesn't mean it is ok , it is traditional to stone women to death for infedelity in some countries .....again NOT ok , Female circumcision was practiced in the united states of America until 1996 on your average white American woman FOR THE SAME REASONS , Thousands of men are now going through foreskin restoration to get back some of the sensitivity and protection their natural foreskin provided many of which who have completed it say their sensitivy has increased up to 80% something a circed baby at birth WILL NEVER know , some even taking the doctors to court AND WINNING for removal of a functional body part without consent .



The problem is people keep saying " MY RIGHTS , PERSONAL CHOICE "



personal choice means the choice of the person on whom the cosmetic surgery is being performed and your rights end where their human rights begin ....plain and simple .



I think circumcision should be legal for any consenting adult if that is what they wish for themselves same rules should apply for ALL cosmetic surgery .

Erin - posted on 03/11/2011

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Most of you are only hear to argue and try to impose your beliefs on others.

That's funny. There are lots of grown men who feel like their parents imposed their beliefs on them by removing part of their body without their consent.

Erin - posted on 03/11/2011

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Lacye, I think you will find that most intactivists are also against ear piercing. My 2yo will not be getting hers done until a) she asks for it and b) she understands that it will hurt and then be uncomfortable while it heals.

Brandi - posted on 03/11/2011

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I believe the Bible differently than you, I am sure. And, I think because of that (and other factors) that I should be allowed to uphold my parental rights and my religious beliefs. THE END.

Amy - posted on 03/11/2011

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I understand that Bible verse, but I went on. I mean, Jesus was a baby and couldn't decide. Jesus broke a LOT of old rules. Used to be an eye for an eye, but jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of seek vengeance.

We looked in Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Galatians..it's the teachings that were left behind about circumcision after Jesus was an adult that we went by. I don't really have a "religion". I read the Bible and take to heart how my personal God wants me to live my life and conduct myself.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuse...

Lacye - posted on 03/11/2011

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Thank you Krista for answering.

I do think that having ears pierced is just the same as having a boy circumcised. It's still a type of mutilation, the earholes can still become infected, and the earring itself can cause an allergic reaction.

Brandi - posted on 03/11/2011

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Awesome, Michelle. You are exactly right. I think this is crazy. I think people just need to stop forcing their beliefs down people's throat. I believe in GOD, but I don't run around forcing that on people, saying you MUST believe in God. I may not agree with you, but it is your decision. I may not agree with you for not allowing your child to go to church, but until he is of age to make his own decision, that is up to you. So just stay out of it.

Michelle - posted on 03/11/2011

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I agree with this article that it is INSANE that anyone wants to take away parents' rights to choose whether they have their child circumcised or not.

To the people who keep trying to compare it to removing an appendix or circumcising a girl, that is just ridiculous! There is no comparison. Circumcisions on boys has been done for YEARS!! It is a religious thing, just like some religions don't circumcise. My son is circumcised, and I'd do it all over again. I actually don't know anyone who isn't. And I asked several guys I know, including my husband, and they said they are glad they are done. My husband has never had any of the problems with performance or dryness like one person tried to claim comes from circumcision.

I guess you people are the same people who think that removing a dog's declaws after birth is cruel? That is also something that hurts for a second, but it done for a purpose, and done when they are a few days old so that they don't remember it. Yes, some dogs do okay with their declaws intact, but some will catch it on something and tear their whole foot up because it will rip it out.

Most of you are only hear to argue and try to impose your beliefs on others. If you believe in circumcision, that's great. If you don't, that's also great. But it is not right to tell me that I can't do something that has been common practice forever, and has medical benefits as well. I'm not here saying you're an idiot because you don't believe circumcision is right. Your opinion is your opinion, and you should respect everyone's opinion. And going on medical research to try to validate your opinion as being the only right one......if someone wanted to prove there were medical benefits by cutting a child's leg off at birth, with enough time and money, they'd come up with statistics to prove it.

Michelle - posted on 03/11/2011

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I agree with this article that it is INSANE that anyone wants to take away parents' rights to choose whether they have their child circumcised or not.

To the people who keep trying to compare it to removing an appendix or circumcising a girl, that is just ridiculous! There is no comparison. Circumcisions on boys has been done for YEARS!! It is a religious thing, just like some religions don't circumcise. My son is circumcised, and I'd do it all over again. I actually don't know anyone who isn't. And I asked several guys I know, including my husband, and they said they are glad they are done. My husband has never had any of the problems with performance or dryness like one person tried to claim comes from circumcision.

I guess you people are the same people who think that removing a dog's declaws after birth is cruel? That is also something that hurts for a second, but it done for a purpose, and done when they are a few days old so that they don't remember it. Yes, some dogs do okay with their declaws intact, but some will catch it on something and tear their whole foot up because it will rip it out.

Most of you are only hear to argue and try to impose your beliefs on others. If you believe in circumcision, that's great. If you don't, that's also great. But it is not right to tell me that I can't do something that has been common practice forever, and has medical benefits as well. I'm not here saying you're an idiot because you don't believe circumcision is right. Your opinion is your opinion, and you should respect everyone's opinion. And going on medical research to try to validate your opinion as being the only right one......if someone wanted to prove there were medical benefits by cutting a child's leg off at birth, with enough time and money, they'd come up with statistics to prove it.

Krista - posted on 03/11/2011

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@Lacye
I didn't circumcise my son, and I will definitely not be getting my daughter's ears pierced either. I don't think that piercing carries near the risk of circumcision, but it's still a painful procedure that is done for cosmetic reasons, and should be left as the child's decision. I cringe when I see little baby girls with earrings, and just wonder if their moms were that desperate for strangers to know it was a "she" instead of a "he?!"

Lacye - posted on 03/11/2011

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Oh sorry. I didn't know that. I didn't read all of the posts. LOL there were just too many.

Brandi - posted on 03/11/2011

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Lacye, I already asked that question... and of course there were excuses to that.

Lacye - posted on 03/11/2011

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I have a question for all the moms that are against having a boy circumsized. Do you have your daughter's ears pierced when they were babies? If not, then I can't really say much on that. If you do, isn't that a type of mutilation of your child? You did it without their permission, which is about the same thing. I promise I'm not trying to be mean but I do agree with the CafeMom that there are more important things to worry about than people who want to circumcise their son. There is poverty, the enviornment, health benefits taken away from people because they can't afford it. Why can't we try and focus our energies on things like that before we tackle something like this. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the fact, I just think that there are some things that should be talked about first.

Brandi - posted on 03/11/2011

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LUKE 2:21And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

I also think if it was ok for Jesus, then it is ok for my sons. Sorry, I am done. Have a good night.

Minnie - posted on 03/11/2011

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Yeah...but it wasn't even a cleanliness issue- because only the bit that hung past the glans was removed. The majority of the foreskin remained anything that covered the glans.

It was simply instituted as a way to shed innocent blood, a hateful practice to remind the Isrealites of their sin nature and to set them apart as God's chosen.

Amy - posted on 03/11/2011

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And you can't really choose your kid's religion either. They do decide that on their own.

Amy - posted on 03/11/2011

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And you know, Lisa, I do really think that's an excellent idea. After all, they were isrealite adults and uncircumcised when in the desert [where water is scarce and supposedly healthier to have it cut, right? due to 'cleanliness'.] Grown men decided to get circed. So you know...that makes total sense to me.

Minnie - posted on 03/11/2011

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Amy, I am against circumcising a child due to religious beliefs. That's oppression to me. You asked about a proper age that it can be done at- 18- when the child is no longer a child, but an adult, and can decide that HE wants to be circumcised because HE has embraced the religion.



In New Hampshire, it is 100% illegal to tattoo any minor, regardless of parental consent. Same thing to me.

Amy - posted on 03/11/2011

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And the caretaker thing...I am the only caretaker beyond grandmothers and aunt Jen. So, pretty lucky on that front. I made sure to educate them on proper care. Good thing because yes, my MIL was told by doctors when working with infants/youth who were mentally disable to PULL back foreskin. I was like..no no no. Let me get you websites and info to look over. The docs who told her were near retirement and that's just how they'd been educated. Doctors CAN be wrong. Really, care is simple. And times change. Information changes. Have to constantly keep up on it. Are there education programs? How can people start one?

Johnny - posted on 03/11/2011

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I do not have the parental right to cut out my daughter's clitoral hood nor to remove her appendix and her tonsils. Unless there is a medical necessity, I can not simply request a doctor to remove non-vital parts of my daughter's body just because she may one day get a urinary tract infection, appendicitis or tonsilitis. All of which are far more common than male UTI's. If I don't have the right to do any of those things, why should you have the right to remove your son's foreskin?

How are your rights as the parent of a son greater than my rights as the parent of a daughter?

Minnie - posted on 03/11/2011

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If a girl wipes from the back to the front after she uses the toilet she's going to get infection after infection. I suppose they would if I hadn't taught them to wipe properly. It took a few long, arduous hours to show them how to move their arms to wipe. Not.



I live in fear, worrying that they'll not remember how to wipe properly, or get too lazy and will get infections later in life. What do I do?!



And yes, to reiterate everyone else saying it you do not have to retract or manipulate the foreskin in any manner to properly clean the penis. Rinse it under water like the rest of the body.

Johnny - posted on 03/11/2011

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"You know, seriously think about it you are your child's caretaker until they can properly take care of themselves and you have to teach them how to take care of themselves. Meaning you have to move that skin and clean it thoroughly."

No, you do not have to move the skin and clean under it. That is what can cause the infections.

In countries where people are used to dealing with uncircumcised penises, this just isn't a big problem. None of my friends have circumcised their sons, and not one has had a problem. I've dated several uncircumcised men and they do not have issues. One did, but he just had problems in general, lol.

The reason so many are harping on this information over and over again is because so many people are so terribly informed about circumcision and what can happen if you don't circumcise.

Did you know that the risks of an uncircumcised boy getting a UTI are lower than the risks of complications for having a circumcision?

Krista - posted on 03/11/2011

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So it's realistic to say that if you aren't allowed to lop healthy tissue off of your kid's body, that means that you have NO parental rights a'tall?

Come on.

Jenni - posted on 03/11/2011

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I really don't get the whole infection fear. I mean, if I don't clean my vagina properly, I get an infection. :P Doesn't make me want to manipulate my vagina in any way. Just makes me want to make sure I scrub thoroughly.



Yeah, the pulling back thing was a concern of mine before we made the decision. I discovered that it was a myth and you clean a baby's uncirc'd penis in the same way you would a circ'd penis.

Krista - posted on 03/11/2011

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You know, seriously think about it you are your child's caretaker until they can properly take care of themselves and you have to teach them how to take care of themselves. Meaning you have to move that skin and clean it thoroughly.

Candace, you DON'T have to move that skin when you are cleaning it. Trust me on this one. You clean a circumcised penis much like you clean your kid's butt -- you clean what you can see, and don't go messing around with the hole. Easy-peasy.

A lot of people (including doctors) thought (and still think) that in order to properly clean an intact penis that you have to retract the foreskin. But the foreskin is not supposed to be retracted until the child is MUCH older, and the foreskin retracts on its own. So what was happening is you had doctors and parents forcibly retracting the foreskin, which would...you guessed it...tear that inner mucous membrane. This would...you guessed it...often cause infections.

You know how I clean my son's penis? I get a wet washcloth soapy, and I give a good wipe to the general area. It's actually less difficult than washing his feet. Seriously.

And Brandi, you've accused us of being dramatic, but to say that your parental rights are being reduced to nothing, just because people think that you and others should not have the right to cut healthy, living tissue off of your child's body? Now who's being dramatic?

Amy - posted on 03/11/2011

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And tara, I hope you don't mind if I answer the question directed at you. Because I know what my answer would be. In the VOLUMES of information we [husband and I ] researched. Quite often the subject of foreskin and pleasure in sex was listed. Husband thought..gee, if sex is good now and could be better...why not want the best for your kids and their future relationship with spouse? It's not perverted and no one is thinking about their little boys really getting it on. It just comes up in information and is just extra food for thought for the future. Because the decisions we make for them as a child do affect them as an adult and you really have to look ahead to the future.

Amy - posted on 03/11/2011

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And that's part of education because no one should be moving that kid's foreskin back for cleaning. It will go back naturally on its own. If intact, don't retract!

Brandi - posted on 03/11/2011

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But, like someone said earlier... they later you wait to have it done, the more serious of a surgery it is. I think they need to just stay out and let parents make the best choice for their child. If they want to make it illegal, fine, but really I have an issue with my parental rights being basically nothing.

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