Gay marriage en gay gay couples adopting

Jocelyn - posted on 07/05/2009

first off i'd like to say that these are wonderful CIVIL posts. :)
now to add my two cents; who are we to say who should or should not be able to experience the wonderful joys of parenthood. who are we to deny someone the chance to feel unconditional love for a child? who are we to deny the children that unconditional love as well?
gay couples should absolutely have the right to adopt. if a single man is able to adopt, what makes that so different from 2 men adopting? technically there wouldn't be a woman in the "relationship" but it's pretty much a guarantee that there will be women outside of the initial relationship, (should the need ever arise for a strictly girl moment, like a first period or something)
my hubby has a best friend. they go out all the time with my son (and they get the stares because some ppl just assume that they are a couple, which i laugh at lol) anyways, i know that if anything were to happen to me, where i wouldn't be able to raise my child physically or emotionally, that i would have no problem having jordan (my hubby) and scott (his best friend) raise our kids. as it is, i practially have two husbands lol (without the added benefit of sex from both of them LOL) i have total faith that they would raise our kids to the best of their abilities. and watching scott with out son, i know that he would be a wonderful father. my opinion on him wouldn't change if he were gay. and i know of many relationships where the mother is no longer in the picture, and the kids are being raised by the father and the best friend. there is no difference between that and a gay couple raising a child. imo they are a family, either way.

JL - posted on 07/03/2009

The nuclear family was a concept that was developed during the Cold War era. Before then extended kin ship networks were the common form of family units. Once suburbs were introduced the nuclear family was passed off as the norm along with the defined ideals of femininity and masculinity. I for one do not feel a need to be forced to follow some standards that were conceived during a period when sexism, racism, nuclear warfare, McCarthyism and the fear of communism formed behavioral ideals in the name of national security. I believe and support love. I love love and therefore I support gay marriage and the right of every child to have a home where they are loved and supported therefore I support the right for homosexuals to adopt.



We have a system filled with children wanting and needing homes and many of these children are passed through an imperfect system and then at the age of 18 they are let on thier own. All these children want are to be loved and wanted and it is ridiculous that we would prevent that. I think it is interesting now that we have a movement among adult children who grew up in gay homes that are fighting back against all the inaccurate information that is out there. I read an article about a book and an organization that is being put together by young adults who are the children of gay parents and one of the stories really struck me. It was from a conservative male who was angered by all the misinformation out there. He is straight and a Republican and cannot understand why people are unwilling to allow his moms the right to marry or why if they wanted to adopt some states would prevent this. It is strange to me that there are people putting out all this information about what is best for a child when they have yet to actually talk to adults who grew up in these environments that they are so willing to attack.



I am also tired of all the hypocrisy that comes out of the Republican party in the US. How does a party bill itself as the party of family values and the party protecting the sanctity of marriage when we keep seeing Republican reps and leaders who have been caught having affairs or are on there second and third marriages. I think heterosexuals are just doing a bang up job with protecting the sancitity of marriage...yes I am being a bit sarcastic.

Esther - posted on 07/03/2009

Quoting Emily:

I agree that it is not a lifestyle choice. My FIL tried to live the straight life that was a lifestyle choice and then he came to the conclusion that he needed to accept himself the way God created him. I admire him for his courage and his comittment to all three of his children.

Well put. The "lifestyle choice" thing drives me up the wall. There isn't a doubt in my mind that people are created straight or gay or somewhere in between. As for it being a sin according to the bible, that may be so. But Christians pick & choose which parts of the bible to believe in and adhere to all the time (nobody supports slavery anymore, but the bible most certainly does) so I fail to understand why this is a part that people are holding on to doggedly at the expense of others who do not share those beliefs.

Esther - posted on 07/03/2009

I looked it up: The first country to allow same-sex couples to enter into legally recognized marriage was the Netherlands, effective in 2001. Since then, six other countries (Belgium, Canada, Norway, South Africa, Spain & Sweden) have followed suit.

Esther - posted on 07/03/2009

Quoting Amie:

Ok I live in Canada. As far as I can tell we are the only country where it is legal for gays/lesbians to marry. (correct me if I'm wrong!)

Consider yourself corrected ;) The Netherlands was the first country in the world to allow homosexuals to marry and I believe several other countries (incl. South Africa if I'm not mistaken) have since joined.

Esther - posted on 07/03/2009

Absolutely! Gay rights is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. Gay people should have every single right that straight people do. They should be allowed to get married (not a "gay marriage" a regular marriage just like my own) and they should be allowed to adopt as well. I know plenty of gay people and they would make wonderful parents if they so chose. I think children MIGHT be slightly better off with a mother and a father than with two dads or two moms (I repeat MIGHT - I haven't seen the studies to prove it), however, we are talking adoption here. Kids are not generally put up for adoption if they are living with their happilly married perfect parents. So these are kids in need of a loving home. Adoption agencies should look at which families can best offer that and if that's a gay couple I'm ALL for it. I once read a story of a gay man and his partner who were taking care of 3 of his nieces and nephews (I want to say it was in Texas) because their mother (his sister) was a drug addict and had just dropped them off on his doorstep. He was a lawyer and his partner was a similarly successful, intelligent man. They had been together for decades and had lovingly taken these kids in. They had provided them with everything and the kids, despite their very rough start in life, were now all well-adjusted, happy children who were doing well in school and loved their new family. Until the state came in and decided that because these men were gay, they were unfit to be parents and the kids were placed in foster care. That is complete insanity. There is nothing wrong with being gay and gay people should not be treated as if there is. The world would be a better place for all if we stopped doing that.

Amie - posted on 07/01/2009

Francesca, I believe you are right. I see some pretty horrible heterosexual parents in my community. I feel bad for their kids.

Amie - posted on 07/01/2009

Quoting Veronica:

Great point Amie - I was born and raised Catholic, and am bringing my children up Catholic - do i believe we are the true religion?no because there is nothing to state that we are - what i believe in is God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ. I believe that we are to love one another, not pass judgement on others and to live according to what God/Jesus have taught us to live. I feel tragedies in the world are in the Lords' plan, but that evilness is at hand. When tragedies occur we are supposed to turn to the Lord to show us the way through them. Our friend died a few years ago to a horrible accident -- we did not blame God for this happening, we prayed to hiim for our friends young soul, prayed that the accident would teach others a lesson on drinking and driving, and prayed for others. We pray for justice, when there is injustice, we pray for world peace, we pray for others well-being, we pray for those who pass before us. There is a plan behind all of this, God's will and design. I feel we are to learn and grow. Has anyone read the Footprints before? Its about a man who has his life flashed before his eyes, and he notices two footprints in the good times, and only one set of footprints in the bad times. He asked Jesus, why are there two with good times, and why are there only one footprint at my worst times? Jesus said, when there were two, i walked with you, and when there was one that was when I carried you -- Do you see how powerful that is? We go through ups and downs throughout our lives, some have it worse or better than others - but we all fall -- that is when we are 'carried' by the Lord and helped through those times - when we pray for Lord to help us and to be there with us, he is - and during the hard times, dont we usually get stronger, and better, and learn from it? I think I have. My parents got divorced when i was 15 - i went through a rough patch, have made it through, and now when looking back, if my dad never left - i probably wouldnt be where i am today - my dad was verbally/mentally/emotionally abusive - if i didnt learn that - id probably be married to someone like that, and i wouldnt have know that it was abusive, i would have thought it was normal because of how he treated my mom -- now i can stand on my two feet, and am not afraid to voice if something isnt right. So - to conclude - evilness is out there, and i think things are done for a reason to learn and grow - im not saying God makes bad things happen - but he gave us free will of choice and that is why the devil beckons - to me what power does the devil really have? In the end, the Lord is more powerful and it will all end - its up to me to make sure I get past the temptations, ask for forgiveness, and live to the fullest that i can to get myself into heaven.... Does any of that help or make sense??

It does. sorry took me a bit to get back. =) Thank you for your answer. It won't change how I feel but at least we can debate the issue and hear each other sides without ending in a fight.

Abby - posted on 07/01/2009

well put francesca

Francesca - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Amie:

Ok I live in Canada. As far as I can tell we are the only country where it is legal for gays/lesbians to marry. (correct me if I'm wrong!) Yay for us and equal rights for all! (no offense meant!)
It's been this way for around 6 years now. So in this respect Canada seems to be ahead of the curve. I am proud of my country for giving all people the basic right to get married.
Marriage is a contract and mostly religious people see it as anything more. (no offense meant again!) I am getting married in 3 weeks. It's not going to change anything for us. We are doing it because we are committed to each other and want to show everyone that we are. I'm not saying either that people who decide to never get married aren't committed to each other. It's just something I always knew was for me when I met the right person. We are not using a pastor,rabbi, priest, etc. We are using a marriage commissioner. He is a public figure there for people like us who do not want to or can not get married in the usual church manner.
Obviously neither my hubby or I are religious. We believe in God but not religion. It is not going to affect my marriage or take away from it in anyway. After all if it was going to I would seriously need to think on why I'm married if two people who are the same sex, that I do not know (or maybe I do), want to get married. I believe that is their right. That is their life and they just want to be able to share their love (or not if the case may be) like everyone else. I find it to be discriminatory if they are not allowed. It is an entire group of people being ostracized simply because they love someone of the same sex.
I also believe they should be allowed to adopt. I don't know whether they are allowed to here or not, though I could look it up. It is not that big a deal, it really isn't. As long as the child is loved and well taken care of they will turn out fine! I saw the Dr. Phil episode a few weeks ago about this very subject. It got very heated but there were people in the audience who had been raised by gay/lesbian parents. They are fine! They are healthy, educated, well balanced and contributing members to society at large. With so many kids being shuffled around the system based on the assumption that if gay/lesbian parents were to adopt them they would end up screwed up in some way is wrong. I think more damage could (and probably will!) be done if they stay in the system and get bounced around.
But that's just me. =) I like to think I'm an open minded person who's accepting of everyone.

hi im from the uk and gay couples can marry ( civil cermony) i think that every couple deserves the right to have a family . they are no different then ourselves. in fact i think gay couples can bring children up better then heterosexual couple sometimes.

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

Im sorry if i come off wishy washy - this is a huge topic for me, as its not a norm here - i think i know one gay person (im sure there are tons around here, just havent met them) i have my views on that issue -- but i still dont think their rights to have kids should be taken. There are single women who get pregant just to have kids, but dont want to have a man intheir life either -- does that make that wrong?? they choose to be a single mom and have kids - should that right be taken??

Jenni - posted on 06/30/2009

i think in my post i compared homosexuality to a crime b/c i was trying to relate on what i felt was the equivalent to a sin for a christian... all sins being equal... if they view homosexuality as a sin... it would be the same as if i felt homosexuality was a crime like any other... ok... im taking a break... im talking in circles :P

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

thats ok jennifer T. - lol -

Jenni - posted on 06/30/2009

ok now im severely confused : / i think u were talking to the other Jennifer there... didn't realize how many posts were going on after that post... nvm im crazy

Jenni - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Veronica:

You are right Jennifer - that is what i think i was trying to get at myself - i couldnt quite explain it right...

sorry Veronica, i assumed you were posting in regards to a former post of mine saying something on long the lines of the bible being up to intrepretation... so i may have missed the point

~Jennifer - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Abby:

Quoting Jennifer:

Quoting Abby:

why are gays constantly being put in the same context as criminals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being gay is hardly the same type of sin as some pervert who touches kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....I didn't see anoyne make that comparison, honestly.

Maybe you read it wrong?

I don't think anyone was implying that in any fashion, if I somehow did, I certainly didn't mean to.

jennifer i wasnt gettin at anyone, i just read the posts and this is about homosexuals and theiur rights, so i dont understand where criminals come in at all xxx

no, I understand that......

I think that what people are saying is that there are so many OTHER things to worry about  rather than what a person's private life is.    Like hunger, disasters, and (I'll rephrase here) heinous acts against fellow human beings....that condemning a person simply for whom they love is quite petty.

~Jennifer - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Abby:

Quoting Jennifer:

Quoting Abby:

why are gays constantly being put in the same context as criminals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being gay is hardly the same type of sin as some pervert who touches kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....I didn't see anoyne make that comparison, honestly.

Maybe you read it wrong?

I don't think anyone was implying that in any fashion, if I somehow did, I certainly didn't mean to.

jennifer i wasnt gettin at anyone, i just read the posts and this is about homosexuals and theiur rights, so i dont understand where criminals come in at all xxx

no, I understand that......

I think that what people are saying is that there are so many OTHER things to worry about  rather than what a person's private life is.    Like hunger, disasters, and (I'll rephrase here) heinous acts against fellow human beings....that condemning a person simply for whom they love is quite petty.

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

Im going to leave that alone -- I really dont want to continue, and bring about a spiritual warfare about gays/lebians -- I dont know what God's plans are - I dont know why people are gay - i dont know why we are even debating about this issue anymore - some accept it others dont and it should left at that. As for children - i feel if they are brought up well and are loved - thats all that matters - as for the ones abused, neglected, etc. We should be fighting for them instead.

Abby - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Jennifer:

Quoting Abby:

why are gays constantly being put in the same context as criminals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being gay is hardly the same type of sin as some pervert who touches kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....I didn't see anoyne make that comparison, honestly.

Maybe you read it wrong?

I don't think anyone was implying that in any fashion, if I somehow did, I certainly didn't mean to.

jennifer i wasnt gettin at anyone, i just read the posts and this is about homosexuals and theiur rights, so i dont understand where criminals come in at all xxx

Abby - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Veronica:

Quoting Abby:

why are gays constantly being put in the same context as criminals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being gay is hardly the same type of sin as some pervert who touches kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Abby, i was merely pointing out - that it doesnt matter your background - who you are, what your religion is, or CRIME -- that does not determine what kind of parent you are or will be -- thats simply what i was making a point about --

i want just saying that to you sorry veronica, it just seems if u read many of the posts people are comparing homosexuals to criminals.

i just dont understand why it is seen as a sin.

~Jennifer - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Abby:

why are gays constantly being put in the same context as criminals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being gay is hardly the same type of sin as some pervert who touches kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....I didn't see anoyne make that comparison, honestly.

Maybe you read it wrong?

I don't think anyone was implying that in any fashion, if I somehow did, I certainly didn't mean to.

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Abby:

why are gays constantly being put in the same context as criminals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being gay is hardly the same type of sin as some pervert who touches kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Abby, i was merely pointing out - that it doesnt matter your background - who you are, what your religion is, or CRIME -- that does not determine what kind of parent you are or will be -- thats simply what i was making a point about --

Abby - posted on 06/30/2009

why are gays constantly being put in the same context as criminals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! being gay is hardly the same type of sin as some pervert who touches kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

Here is my final point - morals or no morals: every single one of us is a sinner, some of us have done bad things, some of us have done minor things - but we are all sinners. That to me does not have anything to do with what kind of parents you can be. I know of a sex offender personally -(was a minor when it happened, turned him self in and was charged as an adult) however bad of a 'sin' this is or may be - it doesnt affect his parenting skills - in fact he would die if something happened to his children, and he is a hard worker to provide for them. SO - in the issues of gays - i dont support a lot of things - but i dont think them being gay has anything to do with them being a parent - its two different things. What you do/who you are -is just that -- how you take care of your children is the complete opposite -- my dad was a great person to everyone else - acted the good guy -- behind closed doors it was the contrary - so evilness wears different faces -- until we are right there to observe it, walk in someones shoes - we dont know, and there for cannot say anything. I think there are more parenting issues, than worrying about gays -- there are kids being beaten, neglected, abused, and sexually assaulted - lets focus on that instead.

~Jennifer - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Sara:

I think what I'm taking away from this is that there are two camps when it comes to the issue of gay marriage/gay couples having children. One group believes that it is morally wrong to be gay and thus can never condone it, the other does not believe it to be morally wrong. I'm not sure I will ever understand a moral objection to being gay, because I do not believe it is a choice, I believe it is someone being true to who they are, and I will never say that is wrong. I appreciate the other perspectives though in this, it's interesting. This is the most civil conversation I've been able to have about this topic on CoM.

See? "Gay people" have just taught us how to be civil to each other!!!!

....sorry, had to.

Sara - posted on 06/30/2009

I think what I'm taking away from this is that there are two camps when it comes to the issue of gay marriage/gay couples having children. One group believes that it is morally wrong to be gay and thus can never condone it, the other does not believe it to be morally wrong. I'm not sure I will ever understand a moral objection to being gay, because I do not believe it is a choice, I believe it is someone being true to who they are, and I will never say that is wrong. I appreciate the other perspectives though in this, it's interesting. This is the most civil conversation I've been able to have about this topic on CoM.

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

Thank you Jennifer - I appreciate that very much!

~Jennifer - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Veronica:

I am not saying that it should take away the right for them to adopt or get married -- i am just pointing out where my faith comes from with right and wrong -- but like i said previously - I am not judging either - i dont know what the Lord's plan is - and what this entails -- maybe its the testony to love others regardless of what when and where..

Hey...if you've never read it, there's a book called "The Shack" ....my mom (knowing that I'm not the most organized of religious people-lol) gave it to me to read.  It's a really good perspective on God & Jesus, over and above the organized religion.  You might like it, I thought it was such a great 'explanation', especially for people like me that question a lot of standpoints & perspectives.

the link is www.theshackbook.com

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

You are right Jennifer - that is what i think i was trying to get at myself - i couldnt quite explain it right...

Megan - posted on 06/30/2009

My question is for those who have religious/moral issues with homosexuality... does allowing a gay couple to adopt really mean you are condoning being gay. If two straight unmarried folks wanted to adopt and provide a home for a child in need, would you deny the child that home? I don't think that the bible says that those who are gay have no right to care for children. Each individual "sin" needs to be treated individually! Gay parents dont "make" gay kids- and they could be donig a great service to them. It makes me think of the story of the good samaritan...

So where in the bible does it state that one sin is so great- that you cannot do good in your life anyways?

I have my concerns about the issues in any situation involving kids. But to say WE WILL PUNISH the sin of being gay by not allowing them to provide a home for kids in need... well who is THAT helping?

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

Great point Amie - I was born and raised Catholic, and am bringing my children up Catholic - do i believe we are the true religion?no because there is nothing to state that we are - what i believe in is God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ. I believe that we are to love one another, not pass judgement on others and to live according to what God/Jesus have taught us to live. I feel tragedies in the world are in the Lords' plan, but that evilness is at hand. When tragedies occur we are supposed to turn to the Lord to show us the way through them. Our friend died a few years ago to a horrible accident -- we did not blame God for this happening, we prayed to hiim for our friends young soul, prayed that the accident would teach others a lesson on drinking and driving, and prayed for others. We pray for justice, when there is injustice, we pray for world peace, we pray for others well-being, we pray for those who pass before us. There is a plan behind all of this, God's will and design. I feel we are to learn and grow. Has anyone read the Footprints before? Its about a man who has his life flashed before his eyes, and he notices two footprints in the good times, and only one set of footprints in the bad times. He asked Jesus, why are there two with good times, and why are there only one footprint at my worst times? Jesus said, when there were two, i walked with you, and when there was one that was when I carried you -- Do you see how powerful that is? We go through ups and downs throughout our lives, some have it worse or better than others - but we all fall -- that is when we are 'carried' by the Lord and helped through those times - when we pray for Lord to help us and to be there with us, he is - and during the hard times, dont we usually get stronger, and better, and learn from it? I think I have. My parents got divorced when i was 15 - i went through a rough patch, have made it through, and now when looking back, if my dad never left - i probably wouldnt be where i am today - my dad was verbally/mentally/emotionally abusive - if i didnt learn that - id probably be married to someone like that, and i wouldnt have know that it was abusive, i would have thought it was normal because of how he treated my mom -- now i can stand on my two feet, and am not afraid to voice if something isnt right. So - to conclude - evilness is out there, and i think things are done for a reason to learn and grow - im not saying God makes bad things happen - but he gave us free will of choice and that is why the devil beckons - to me what power does the devil really have? In the end, the Lord is more powerful and it will all end - its up to me to make sure I get past the temptations, ask for forgiveness, and live to the fullest that i can to get myself into heaven.... Does any of that help or make sense??

Amie - posted on 06/30/2009

Veronica I know you weren't. I was just looking for an answer on either or from a devout person's perspective. =)

~Jennifer - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Veronica:

Has anyone here heard the story of Sodom and Gomora (spelt wrong, but you get the point if you've heard of it) God destroyed that city because of the evilness within - Abraham begged for teh city not be destroyed - he said if there are ten righteous men in the city, will you not destroy it? God said if there is ten I will not. The angels were sent to Sodom and Gomorah - the men in sodom wanted to have the angels to have sex with them (homosexuality) -- that was when the Angels ushered Lot and his wife and daughters out - and God destroyed it. What does this tell you?? If homosexuality isnt a sin - then why would God destroy this city because of it?? Does anyone have logic for this?? (You can find this in the book of Genesis Chapter18/19 -- What are OPINIONS on this?? I really have nothing to say - because Im not here to judge, just wanted to point this passage out - and now it makes me question it even more... my lips are sealed at this point - im saying no more...

My opinion is that if Christians believe that Jesus died to absolve humans of their sins, then anything that happened before the death of Jesus has been redeemed.  (would take too long to elaborate on that, but that's my base theory)

My other opinion is that if God is love, and Jesus preached love, and 2 men honestly LOVE each other, or 2 women honestly LOVE each other,  where is the sin?   If I turn to my best friend and tell her that I honestly, truly and unconditionally love her and would die for her if need be....am I a lesbian?    Why is it that LOVE between 2 people has to have gender boundaries?    

The 'sin' everyone speaks of is sex, (which is  a sin before marriage, correct?) 

So, if you have 2 people having sex - male and female, before they're married, and they ask to be forgiven of this sin, they are. 

If you have 2 people of the same gender having sex before marriage, it's a sin, and will always be a sin, because they are being forbid to marry. 

If 2 gay men or 2 gay women who had complete, total unconditional LOVE for each other were allowed to be married would sex afterward be a sin?  If it is, and they've accepted Jesus, aren't they forgiven? 

If a gay couple lived together  leagally married, but took a vow of celibacy, would it make any difference in anyone's opinion? 

(If you say yes, then the only thing you have a problem with is their sex life, which frankly, is no one's business but theirs, and God's - sorry if that sounded snotty)

 I would jump into a whole pit of replies to this to further explain what I'm trying to say, but I tend to go off on a tangent  with discussions about religion....so I'll shut up now.

=)

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

I am not saying that it should take away the right for them to adopt or get married -- i am just pointing out where my faith comes from with right and wrong -- but like i said previously - I am not judging either - i dont know what the Lord's plan is - and what this entails -- maybe its the testony to love others regardless of what when and where..

Abby - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Amie:

In regards to the passage in the bible. Well I have issues with the Bible as it is. Apparently the lost city has been discovered too? I remember reading that somewhere but not sure if it's true. Anyway... my issue is this. God is supposed to be ultimate holy person whom we can not see and can only interpret what his will is. There are so many religions out there claiming to be the right one, how can anyone know for sure? I do not believe in religion for that fact. It is man made, we get things wrong so often how can we know we're doing it right? I talk to God all the time and don't get the feeling I'm wrong for not picking a religion. That doesn't mean I'm not though, I will find out at the end of my life I guess. For the city though, how does anyone know it was God? A lot of terrible things happen. Look at New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina. Was that an act of God because that city had become too sinful? Or was it just a tragedy? How do you decide which is God's will and what is just a tragedy?
I think too that there are so many other issues to be worried about that what someone's sexual orientation is is very far down my list of worries and concerns. In fact it doesn't even register because I've always been "on their side" and believe they should be allowed their rights in all aspects. If they are wrong they will pay for it at judgment time. It is not our place to tell them what they can and can not do because we think we are right.

......amie, you wrote exactly how i feel.

thank you xxx

Amie - posted on 06/30/2009

In regards to the passage in the bible. Well I have issues with the Bible as it is. Apparently the lost city has been discovered too? I remember reading that somewhere but not sure if it's true. Anyway... my issue is this. God is supposed to be ultimate holy person whom we can not see and can only interpret what his will is. There are so many religions out there claiming to be the right one, how can anyone know for sure? I do not believe in religion for that fact. It is man made, we get things wrong so often how can we know we're doing it right? I talk to God all the time and don't get the feeling I'm wrong for not picking a religion. That doesn't mean I'm not though, I will find out at the end of my life I guess. For the city though, how does anyone know it was God? A lot of terrible things happen. Look at New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina. Was that an act of God because that city had become too sinful? Or was it just a tragedy? How do you decide which is God's will and what is just a tragedy?
I think too that there are so many other issues to be worried about that what someone's sexual orientation is is very far down my list of worries and concerns. In fact it doesn't even register because I've always been "on their side" and believe they should be allowed their rights in all aspects. If they are wrong they will pay for it at judgment time. It is not our place to tell them what they can and can not do because we think we are right.

Jenni - posted on 06/30/2009

Christa, no no i dont feel that way... it was a stupid Q... guess if i didn't believe it was right to steal... and they passed a bill saying it was ok... i still wouldn't be happy that it was legal for my friends who stole to be allowed now!!! sorry, it was dumb



Veriona.. i am familar with the storry... but i dont believe the bible is factual... so for me that wouldn't change my opinion on homosexuals being allowed to adopt

Abby - posted on 06/30/2009

i personally thght that god loved ALL his children. if he is so great and loved everyone then why would he destroy them??

Veronica - posted on 06/30/2009

Has anyone here heard the story of Sodom and Gomora (spelt wrong, but you get the point if you've heard of it) God destroyed that city because of the evilness within - Abraham begged for teh city not be destroyed - he said if there are ten righteous men in the city, will you not destroy it? God said if there is ten I will not. The angels were sent to Sodom and Gomorah - the men in sodom wanted to have the angels to have sex with them (homosexuality) -- that was when the Angels ushered Lot and his wife and daughters out - and God destroyed it. What does this tell you?? If homosexuality isnt a sin - then why would God destroy this city because of it?? Does anyone have logic for this?? (You can find this in the book of Genesis Chapter18/19 -- What are OPINIONS on this?? I really have nothing to say - because Im not here to judge, just wanted to point this passage out - and now it makes me question it even more... my lips are sealed at this point - im saying no more...

Christa - posted on 06/30/2009

Truthfully no, it won't change how I feel about the behavior. I know that sounds heartless, but I can't figure how to put how I feel about that into words.

Jenni - posted on 06/30/2009

Christa, so i'm going to ask you an honest Q... you don't have to answer if you dont want to... nor am i trying to trap you by it... for curiosity's sake... if it came down to a vote and you voted "no" but it passed anyways... would part of you not beable to help but feel happy for your friends who are homosexual, for their happiness?

Christa - posted on 06/30/2009

Quoting Sarah:

Hi All!
First, i'm impressed that this thread hasn't gotten out of hand....

Secondly, my views on what's been said!

Since joining COM i've seen lots of religion based threads, and it's made me think about God and the bible quite a lot. I've always had an interest in religion, i took R.S (religious studies) as an option at school, then took Philosophy at 6th Form.
I have a respect for people who are religious, it amazes me that you can make that 'leap of faith' and believe in something so completely.
My issues with religion is mainly the bible. It seems to me (and do correct me if i'm wrong!) that there are parts of it people choose to follow....like homosexuality being a sin. Yet other parts that have fallen by the wayside, like not wearing clothes of mixed fabrics or avoiding women on their period because they are 'unclean'.
The other thing i can't quite tally up in my mind, is that (and again i could be wrong) if say, a murderer repents all his sins and gives himself to God, then they will get into Heaven. However, a person who has lived a good life, but doesn't believe in God won't get into Heaven. (technically!)
I'm not saying all this to put Christianity down, i'm genuinely interested in how people see these things.
If anyone can explain to me that would be great!
Slightly off topic i guess! Sorry! :)

The Bible is hard to understand, it's a double edged sword, you have to have faith to understand it and you have to understand it to have faith.  There are many verses that people use to try and discount the bible, like the shellfish line comes about a lot.  Some of those verses are guidelines to living your life, but they aren't moral laws.  The two are different.  Also you have to read the bible completely to see the themes throughout, not just cherry pick one verse here and one verse there.  Also the old testament was before Christ, so once Jesus came and died for our sins, that changed some things that are now reflected in the new testament. 

As far as going to Heaven, it is very clear.  The only way is through God.  He sent his son to die for our sins and you have to accept that sacrifice for your sins.  You have to accept him as your savior, period.  It doesn't matter what else you do, once you have done that you are forgiven of all sins and may go to heaven.  It does matter what you do in the sense, once you come to that point and make that commitment you want to please the lord and live the way he has laid out.  But if someone has made that commitment, but continues to live a sinful life you are still forgiven.  I know it can seem very narrow but I think it's very open.  God has shown us all the door, you just have to go through it.  Anyway I don't want to preach, but I hope that answered your question a bit.

Jenni - posted on 06/30/2009

omg i said i would vote "yes' to murder!!! not what i meant!!! i meant to say "no" lol

Jenni - posted on 06/30/2009

Christa and Veronica, i support ur right to vote "no" to gay marriage as it is against ur beliefs...



Christa, no thank you, you cleared up my Q... i wasn't trying to find holes in ur argument as i'm sure u have it well thought through... was just curious as to how you felt



Veronica, i really enjoyed ur point about "who are we to judge which sin is greater than another" but at the same time i know "judging" and "condoning" a sin are two seperate things... if a prop came up to legalize murder and i was morally objective i would vote yes... not to compare homosexuality to murder... but i can see in the Christian point of view and i see no where in the bible, one sin to be considered "greater" then another... so if it says in the bible "lying" is a sin and "murder" is a sin when it comes down to it they are both sins and you cannot condone what you view as a sin...

i hope that made sense :/

Alison - posted on 06/30/2009

I always post my view before reading the other posts.



As far as religion goes the bible is life applicable to the believer. I don't personally think there is anything to be gained from changing the law to enforce it's principles on those who don't believe.



I also don't agree with modern principles being imposed the other way either. An example of this is the threat of prison for clergy in some Europen countries who refuse to marry gay couples in their church. This is also an issue for church funded orphanages being forced to close because they refuse to let gay couples adopt.



Having the freedom to be equal is one thing, but having freedom from it is just important for those who don't want to facilitate it in their private organisation.

Alison - posted on 06/30/2009

Gay marriage is recognised in the UK, but is called a civil partnership. I think this is ok because people should have rights to things they acquire during the course of a relationship.



I personally think that a child being placed for adoption should be given the opportunity to experience an ideal or at least a typical faimily setting where possible. I think other families should only be considered if there are no families with a mother and a father available. I'll probably be in the minority here and don't hate me for it, but I see the ideal family as being a bit like "Little House on the Prarie". I know thats not realistic these days, but it used to be.

Sarah - posted on 06/30/2009

Hi All!
First, i'm impressed that this thread hasn't gotten out of hand....

Secondly, my views on what's been said!

Since joining COM i've seen lots of religion based threads, and it's made me think about God and the bible quite a lot. I've always had an interest in religion, i took R.S (religious studies) as an option at school, then took Philosophy at 6th Form.
I have a respect for people who are religious, it amazes me that you can make that 'leap of faith' and believe in something so completely.
My issues with religion is mainly the bible. It seems to me (and do correct me if i'm wrong!) that there are parts of it people choose to follow....like homosexuality being a sin. Yet other parts that have fallen by the wayside, like not wearing clothes of mixed fabrics or avoiding women on their period because they are 'unclean'.
The other thing i can't quite tally up in my mind, is that (and again i could be wrong) if say, a murderer repents all his sins and gives himself to God, then they will get into Heaven. However, a person who has lived a good life, but doesn't believe in God won't get into Heaven. (technically!)
I'm not saying all this to put Christianity down, i'm genuinely interested in how people see these things.
If anyone can explain to me that would be great!
Slightly off topic i guess! Sorry! :)

Christa - posted on 06/29/2009

Quoting Veronica:

Christa G - and all : I want to clarify the Bible, as I too am a firm believer - and I do not agree with gas/lebians - HOWEVER - that does not mean that I am against them having rights either. In the book of Romans - it talks that homosexuality is out there - but that we are not to pass judgment upon anyone. But - it also talks about homosexuals are to remain celibate... That is the part that i think people have the most problem with- is the sex between gay people - to me its gross -- but im pretty sure its not to them. Being gay doesnt make them a bad person. I dont know why gay people exist, i dont know what the Lords' big plan is, or the big picture -- what I do know is that we are not to pass judgment on anyone - when you pass judgement on someone else you are passing judgement upon yourself as well. Lets just all get along here - I more two-sided on this topic - but its not the worst thing to happen for a child to grow up with gay parents - if the child is loved and cared for - thats better than the child suffering somewhere else.
Thats my opinion and im sticking to it.
(And I am by no means perfect, so Im not trying to say that i never judge - i do, and im sure i still will - but its stuff like this that you learn from)
As for homosexuals being a sin -- it just may be - but who are we to judge that?? So is prostitiution, murder, tattooing yourself, etc. We dont know what sin is really greater than the other, and its something someone does - not what they are. I hope this has helped...

Like I said before I'm not judging, I'm just sticking to my beliefs.  And while you are right sin is sin, it is very specific about not living a sinful lifestyle that is why I can't support that type of lifestyle.  There are all kinds of different interpretations to the bible and you are entitled your view of it. :-)

Sapphire - posted on 06/29/2009

Parenting is parenting. The way I parent my son has nothing to do with who I chose to share my bed with as a sexual partner. Religion is always being tossed into the equation and it shouldn't be. Parenting and religion are two different platforms.

Veronica - posted on 06/29/2009

Christa G - and all : I want to clarify the Bible, as I too am a firm believer - and I do not agree with gas/lebians - HOWEVER - that does not mean that I am against them having rights either. In the book of Romans - it talks that homosexuality is out there - but that we are not to pass judgment upon anyone. But - it also talks about homosexuals are to remain celibate... That is the part that i think people have the most problem with- is the sex between gay people - to me its gross -- but im pretty sure its not to them. Being gay doesnt make them a bad person. I dont know why gay people exist, i dont know what the Lords' big plan is, or the big picture -- what I do know is that we are not to pass judgment on anyone - when you pass judgement on someone else you are passing judgement upon yourself as well. Lets just all get along here - I more two-sided on this topic - but its not the worst thing to happen for a child to grow up with gay parents - if the child is loved and cared for - thats better than the child suffering somewhere else.

Thats my opinion and im sticking to it.

(And I am by no means perfect, so Im not trying to say that i never judge - i do, and im sure i still will - but its stuff like this that you learn from)

As for homosexuals being a sin -- it just may be - but who are we to judge that?? So is prostitiution, murder, tattooing yourself, etc. We dont know what sin is really greater than the other, and its something someone does - not what they are. I hope this has helped...