Giving God all the credit

Krista - posted on 09/14/2011

Anywhoodle, I think we've exhausted the topic. Thanks for all the thoughtful responses, ladies!

Sal - posted on 09/14/2011

i would go as far to say that her faith nearly killed her, it was infact her sisters lack of faith that saved her..she knew god wasn't going to step in, so she did

Sal - posted on 09/14/2011

dear sherri, i beg to differ, if it was left to god she would of died with her first baby, it was the dr who picked her up from the car park who saved her, and if on the second baby if left to god she would of died again...all she was doing was preying,it was her sister that called 000, she was at home saying everything was ok god was on her side, she just needed her sis to carry her older child to the car so she could drive herself to hospital, faith can be wonderful, but the praise really needs to be placed in its rightful place......i will give you the fact god made the dr brilliant though.....

Sherri - posted on 09/14/2011

Yup I agree with Laura that is why things are constantly changing in beliefs and rules even within the Catholic church.

Laura Zoey - posted on 09/14/2011

When you believe that God created the universes then all the answers do lead back to God but yeah we do learn from things other than the bible :)

Lady - posted on 09/14/2011

I agree Johnny the world has moved on a lot in the last 2000 years - people need to move with it.

Lady - posted on 09/14/2011

3437 - I don't even know you so how could I possibly not stand you - I disagree with your beliefs but that's very different. To me you are a fellow mother who has had a hard time in your early life but is making a good life for her children as are we all on here, hopefully, that is one of the reasons we come on here to seek advice and communicate with other mothers - it's not an attack on your personality to disagree with you.

Johnny - posted on 09/14/2011

Could the answers exist outside the bible? I have a hard time seeing room to evolve if all the answers are contained in one 2000 year old book.

Laura Zoey - posted on 09/14/2011

I guess our bible studies help us evolve or grow because we are always trying to find answers but recognize we will never understand it all.

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

@Gillian......I can see that you can't stand me and that okay! How do you know that I don't pray for rain in Africa or That they won't cut up their young girls or how about the little turtle trying to cross the road! I pray for alot of different things that was just one of them!!!! Gotta go to work now so you can find someone else to pick on.

Johnny - posted on 09/14/2011

Regardless of whether someone believes in god or not, if they are unable to admit or see that it is not possible for us to have all the answers, to know the "truth", and that we have to keep our eyes & minds open to all the possibilities, they can not evolve. Can then? Religious, spiritiual, atheist, it doesn't matter. We can't grow and learn if we are not willing to have our beliefs challenged and consider that we just don't know it all. Humans have evolved by constantly searching for more knowledge. If we think we know it all, we'll cease to evolve.

Laura Zoey - posted on 09/14/2011

I'd thank god for giving the dr such talent and desire to learn and serve.

Lady - posted on 09/14/2011

Maybe Texas needs rain to help a few farmers with their crops but what the hell about in Africa where thousands upon thousands are dying of starvating due to no rain - maybe your prayer would be better off there - oh wait maybe they're not christian so god wouldn't listen anyway would he?

Sherri - posted on 09/14/2011

@Sal I most definitely would have too. It was the doctors that helped but if it was me it would have been God that made the child healthy and the doctor's just assisted.

ME - posted on 09/14/2011

I saw a great PBS documentary in the last week about Faith and religious responses to the tragedy on 9/11. Several religious leaders pointed out that people thanking god for saving them in those attacks was the "same thing as" blaming god for killing the other 3000 or so. As they all pointed out, that is NOT the god they believe in or that their religious institution teaches about. They could not imagine where their followers had gotten the bizarre notion that god took a direct hand in either the murders or survival of any individuals...It was an encouraging and enlightening conversation...I'm sure that those who are interested could find it on line...

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

Yes Texas needs rain!!!!!!! We have family there and they say it hasn't rained there since before we were there in August of last year! Please God send some rain to central texas!!!!!

Sarah - posted on 09/14/2011

@Katrina - Yep, Perry sure did hold a "Pray for Rain" meeting in Texas. Sigh. Didn't work though. It's incredibly ridiculous how hot and dry it has been here in Texas. :( But, I've just learned to accept the fact that nature SUCKS right now & maybe, eventually we'll get a break!

I was born & raised into a Christian home & do believe in an infinite energy source, higher power, God, whatever you want to call it. But, I don't believe that God works in the way that a lot of people think he does. I don't tell people, "I'm praying for you" anymore. I tell them I'm "thinking of you" or "sending positive thoughts your way" or something along those lines. It's difficult to have these thoughts/feelings when you were born & raised right in the thick of the Bible Belt.

America3437 - posted on 09/14/2011

@Jen..... No my father (step) was not shown love as a child! When him and my mom got togeather he was a athiest and a very ugly one at that! He beat my mom as well as us kids! The devil had a hold of his soul because he denied God! Not because he was an athiest! I went to church all my life and learned that church is not the people in it ,it is the spirit in it! A very dear friend told me to get my family to church and although I respect her greatly and she has single handed showed me that God is with us and it is up to us to accept, him.....she has overcome many horriable things in her life and could not have done it without god's help just as my mother needed his strength to make it out alive! That is all I can say... we have to accept that we all think differently and that is okay! I am sorry that those things happened to you and relize in your eyes that was probably hurtful and I apologise but I would have to assume that the cancer that killed my grandfather and that is working on a dear friends daughter was pretty bad! My point was.... There are things out their that some can endure and some can't. You are a very strong person who deserves peace within and I wish the best for you and your family!

Karina - posted on 09/14/2011

Agreed!!!
side note that I and hubby find hilarious. did you know that Gov. Richard Perry (Texas, running for president, republican) held a "Pray for Rain" meeting because of the drought in Texas. The next day houses started burning. To me and hubby's thinking, doesn't this mean that God "hates" Perry and/or Texas?
btw, we do feel sorry for those in Texas and wish that the wildfires would stop and wish those battling the fires all the luck and skill in the world.

Jenni - posted on 09/14/2011

However, I think the process is a bit restrained depending on how strict and rigid your religious beliefs are. There are progressive religious people and fundamentalist. Fundamentalism leads to more closed-mindedness and less room for evolution.



In order to evolve you must be open-minded enough to stretch, expand on or change your original beliefs. Not the overall belief in god but your beliefs about him/her/it.

Cathy - posted on 09/14/2011

Sorry, Atheist extremists I meant ( the ones who tend to belittle those with any faith)... not all atheists are like that.

Jenni - posted on 09/14/2011

Woah, woah hey now Cathy, let's not paint all Atheists with the same brush, I try not to make the same mistake with the religious. ;)



I believe the religious are evolving. Like Karla. I don't believe we will ever 'evolve' away from religion and I'm not too arrogant to say we will one day unleash all the secrets of the universe. As long as there are unanswered questions, we as human beings will naturally fill in the blanks with what our beliefs are to those unanswered questions.



Non-believers and believers are both evolving... as humanity and civilization is evolving.

Cathy - posted on 09/14/2011

Nah Laura, Atheist just like to believe that!

It's that arrogant attitude that always has siding with the religious (even though I'm not). No human is ever going to be intelligent enough to understand all the mysteries of the universe... that's delusional!

Laura Zoey - posted on 09/14/2011

So those who believe in God aren't as evolved as atheists?

Jenni - posted on 09/14/2011

@Cathy, really the only time I get offended by religious context is when it is used to convert me, save my soul, indoctrine or blame natural disasters and people dying on their god's wraith against those people (whether it's for being non-believers or their moral standing).



Like Johnny, I too often make off cuff remarks in thanks to god. I also occasionally use biblical swears. Must be the former Christian in me.

Cathy - posted on 09/14/2011

Do atheists also get offended when I swear and blame god for mistakes another caused?

Karla - posted on 09/14/2011

From Jen: ”While it's not PC to say it, I really hope we continue to evolve away from religious constructs.”

In thoughtful debate: I think we are in transition, but then again maybe every moment is a transitional moment. Back to my point though; I think we are in transition away from some restrictive and often barbaric religious practices, but I don’t think humans will totally let go of religion.

On the other hand there is some evidence and possibility that some natural or man-made disaster could send us into a “dark ages” of sorts that would make religion a necessary unifier to those “left behind.” (intended, but tongue-n-cheek.) That would be just the catalyst to magnify certain religious beliefs.

Big religious hurdles blocking human religious/spiritual transformations are the number of religions (and factions of religions), the differing socio-economics of countries makes some much more dependant on religion than others, and religion as an industry. There’s a lot of money tied to religion, a lot of donations, products and media tied to religion, and we all know these things serve to make it more important and stronger.

Karla - posted on 09/14/2011

I feel very uncomfortable reading these threads. It’s not that I don’t like talking about religion and what it means to people and why so many believe in God, and why many don’t. I like to talk about what is attributed to God and how religion has helped and harmed mankind. In this thread though, between emotional responses and random multi-personality blurbs, the thoughtful debate is missing.

Talking about or debating religion is usually going to be difficult. Those who believe in God and those who do not believe in god will not be convinced otherwise. The OP is about the problem of openly praising God despite the efforts and goodness of people regarding certain events. Even though many people love to praise God for everything, it would be nice in many cases such as this little boy being returned to his family, to say “Thank Goodness.” Those words can be applied to God, or the people responsible for the return of that child. “Thank Goodness.”

Sal - posted on 09/14/2011

the op is so right....
a friend of mine is who very religous has a daughter the same age as my daughter, the mum had a heart attack at 30ish weeks and as a result her daughter has cerebral palsey....3 or so years on she decicded to try for another baby....the dr told her she had about a 90% chance she would have the same prob....she went ahead because she preyed for a healthy pregnacy.....all good until about 30 weeks again,but because she was being monitored so closly the dr admitted her airlifted her to a major high risk maternity unit and had bub early but safely.....and who did she claim gave her her healthy baby.....no not the drs but god!!!!!

Jen - posted on 09/14/2011

You're right. Some won't ever give it up and will consider it an honor to be the 'last' believer.

But we will change as a whole about religion in one way or another. Look how some religions just went away as society changed. Look how many pantheistic religions went by the wayside before Christianity took over. They moved to other pantheons or changed theirs to accomodate other religions.

Lady - posted on 09/14/2011

I fully believe we will evolve away from religion Jen, I think we needed it in the past to try and explain things we didn't understand and then others used as a form of control - as our understanding of how things work and came about we no longer need relgion or god to explain it so are moving away from it - there are more athiests inn the world now than at any time bfore I believe - of course some people just won't give it up.

Jen - posted on 09/14/2011

"
I find it very interesting that the interpretations of the bible seems to shift as humanity's concious grows"

Indeed Feen. St Augustine was also a great proponent of burning heretics. And like Limbo, that concept fell out of favor as society grew a conscience.

While it's not PC to say it, I really hope we continue to evolve away from religious constructs.

Jen - posted on 09/14/2011

"If I had a child that wouldn't make it in the hospital I would get them baptized to assure their entrance in heaven. Just like we do last rites to our loved ones as well when they are on their death beds. "

This is not to you directly but in general. I sincerely do not understand why anyone would want to go to Heaven under this belief. How could anyone with a conscience enjoy being there knowing that perfectly innocent little babies have been denied entrance because some guy didn't anoint their head with water and/or oil? I honestly and truly do not understand why that would be ok. I really don't. How can it be right to exclude a true innocent because of something utterly beyond their control?

See these are the mental gymnastics I am not able to perform which is why I personally could never believe in a god. Or, even if I could believe in it, I could never be inclinded to sincerely offer it worship, praise, thanks or anything beyond contempt.

But I do think my position would be an honest one.

Becky - posted on 09/13/2011

For me, I think it's more of the good manners thing. If I believe God had a hand in something, I'll thank him, just like I would thank anyone else who helped me out or gave me a gift. And I do just use "thank God" as a phrase sometimes too. "I found my keys, thank god!" I'm not really giving him the credit for finding my keys - unless they dropped from nowhere at my feet! :) Which has never happened... The Bible does say, "In everything give thanks..." which would imply giving thanks for the bad as well as the good. I can't really do that. It's counterintuitive to thank someone for hurting you!

Johnny - posted on 09/13/2011

This concept of "thanking" god is actually rather perplexing for me. I was thinking about it on my commute today, rather stirred up by this conversation and a comment made by a co-worker "thanking god" that we're getting another staff member. She's an atheist, so it was just a "turn of phrase" for her. It is something I will even say as an off the cuff remark. I don't really mean it in a literal sense, for me it's just more a way of being generally grateful for something I do not want to go to the effort to delve into the details of. Obviously, we were thankful that our boss had gotten around to it, that a good candidate was available, etc. etc. etc. But who is going to say all that, so we just tend to throw god in there. Although I do have a friend who always says, "thanks be to Satan" for his own entertainment. I suppose for many of us religious phrases are so ubiquitous that we may use them even though we don't believe in them or do not mean it literally.

Anyway, I am rather digressing from my point. Some people do mean it. They are intentionally and specifically intending to thank their deity for something that has happened. So I wonder, is this just like good manners, that you should always thank whomever you think gave you something. Or is it a different kind of gratitude? Is this gratitude reserved for the deity? Or can you be thankful in the same manner to others?

This worship and thanking of deities has always been the most perplexing part of faith for me. Even when I was younger and believed in god sort of, I never understood worship. I get prayer, in a way, but praise and worship mystify me. If god is all these things, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and great, does god need our praise? Does god need to be pleased by our actions? Does god need to be thanked? Most of the time I was attending church, it was always talking about how great, wonderful, and fantastic god is. I was never sure if that is intended to please god and curry favor or to convince the masses that god is indeed great? I struggle more with these kinds of questions than I do with the existence of god. So any insight would be appreciated....

Becky - posted on 09/13/2011

Well, to my knowledge, the issue is not really addressed in the Bible, so I'm not changing its meaning. In addition, nowhere in the Bible (again to my knowledge) does it say that baptism is a requirement for entering heaven. Jesus says, "No one comes to the father but by me." Not, "but by doing this, this, and this..." What exactly that means is open to interpretation. Jesus also says, "Let the little children come to me and don't forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." and, "I tell you, unless a man becomes like a little child, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven." This indicates to me that children are considered innocent and will be in heaven, whether they have been baptised or fulfilled whatever requirements we feel we need to fulfil to get into heaven, or not. There may not be a strong Biblical basis for my view, but there is no Biblical basis for the view that an unbaptised infant will not be in heaven.

Charlie - posted on 09/13/2011

Phew lucky mere humans have the power to change the meaning of the bible .

"In the fifth century, St. Augustine concluded that infants who die without baptism were consigned to hell. By the 13th century, theologians referred to the "limbo of infants" as a place where unbaptized babies were deprived of the vision of God, but did not suffer because they did not know what they were deprived of."

I find it very interesting that the interpretations of the bible seems to shift as humanity's concious grows.

Becky - posted on 09/13/2011

The majority of Protestant denominations do not believe in infant baptisms. My personal opinion is that until a person reaches the age where they would be able to understand God, sin, grace, etc and make a concious decision to follow God, they will not be punished for not believing in God. This is individual for each person, so I don't think there is any set age. But, if hell is real and not figurative, I do not believe you will see infants, young children, or severely mentally handicapped people there. That's not really backed up by the Bible, it's just what I choose to believe because I don't think I could believe in a god who would send a newborn baby to hell.

Sherri - posted on 09/13/2011

Although this I still think it is important to get a baby baptized as soon as possible. It is the belief that they may not be able to get into heaven which is why we baptize our children as infants.



If I had a child that wouldn't make it in the hospital I would get them baptized to assure their entrance in heaven. Just like we do last rites to our loved ones as well when they are on their death beds.

Sherri - posted on 09/13/2011

What happens to a baby's soul when the baby dies without the benefit of the Sacrament of Baptism? The official answer of the Roman Catholic Church to this all-important question was revised today when the International Theological Commission released a ground-breaking report, and Pope Benedict XVI approved it's findings.

After extensive theological research, the commission has reported that there is a possibility that these unbaptized babies can go to heaven. They agree with past findings that there is no definite answer to this question in religious documents. However, they have found that there is enough evidence to revise the official Roman Catholic Church opinion.

Traditionally the Catholic Church has taught that the unbaptized baby's soul goes into a state of limbo. In this state, the baby's soul enjoys happiness and contentment for eternity, but lacks the perfect joy of being with God. In other words, it is excluded from Heaven, but does not suffer the ravages of Hell or Purgatory, either.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...

Laura Zoey - posted on 09/13/2011

Most Christians don't believe an unbaptised dead baby goes to hell, we believe God has grace on the children who die so young. I think it's Catholics? Maybe they think unbaptised means going to hell. Not sure. I sure don't believe that! That's not how the God I believe in works.

Charlie - posted on 09/13/2011

Krista the whole concept of original sin disturbs me too in fact it makes me angry to think human beings can hold such contempt towards other human beings and for what ?

So an infant dies and has yet to be baptised so they should be cast to hell ?? WTF ...... Even if it were true (and I dont believe it for a second ) If there were proof , just that would be enough for me to stand up and turn against such a heinous , vile act.......and people are scared of satan , boggles my mind !

Sherri - posted on 09/13/2011

I definitely ask for prayers on FB especially when my brother in law just got hit a month ago by a drunk driver and had his leg severed off, when he was pinned between a staircase of a bldg and the car that jumped the curb. We didn't know if he would survive. So yup we asked for a ton of prayers.

I also tend to be pretty open and personal with all my statuses but it is how a lot of my friends and family stay in contact. Since I have one sister 2,000 miles away and one best friend on the opposite side of the country, and a friends daughter in the Marines. So the only way to keep in contact with them is by FB.

Becky - posted on 09/13/2011

Well, I do agree that it's annoying when people go on and on about it, Susanne. I believe in God and even I find some of my Christian friends' statuses to be annoying and over the top. I have one friend who posts things about how God healed her vehicle and how she woke up to the fragrance of the holy spirit... IMO, some of her posts are a little weird! But, to each their own, I guess. I can understand how it gets tiresome though, especially to those who believe differently. I very rarely post about spiritual stuff on my FB status. But I also rarely post really personal stuff there either! If I need prayer or whatever, I generally share it with those I'm close to and not everyone on my friends list. But I have noticed that some people are so open on FB, sometimes I'm almost embarassed for them!

Laura Zoey - posted on 09/13/2011

I guess a baby might not deserve it at birth, but if you look at it's life from Gods perspective he sees that the baby is going to be a sinner just like everyone else.
Still seems cold, but I don't know all the answers.

Krista - posted on 09/13/2011

We all deserve to die, we all are sinners so we all deserve Hell. That's the rational about why 'innocent' people die, because we all are imperfect and doomed to sin and none of us deserve Gods grace.

Yeah, I just find that to be pretty warped, sorry. The very idea of an innocent baby, who knows nothing of good or evil, and who only wants food and softness and comfort...that baby is a sinner and deserves Hell? That's fucked up. Seriously. I know you're talking about the concept of original sin, but I just find the very concept to be really disturbing and wrong.

Laura Zoey - posted on 09/13/2011

We all deserve to die, we all are sinners so we all deserve Hell. That's the rational about why 'innocent' people die, because we all are imperfect and doomed to sin and none of us deserve Gods grace. So if someone dies it's 'just' and if someone goes to heaven it's by Gods grace.

Ok, I wasn't going to come back but just had to throw that in. I really don't like religion debates since my beliefs can't really be debated :) carry on!

Jenni - posted on 09/13/2011

Yeah, I'm going to go with... it doesn't really bother me when people thank whatever deity they wish to thank in their FB status.

I still don't understand the logic behind why a god would save certain children and not others like in the OP.

But it doesn't irritate me nearly as much as people blaming natural disasters on the affected region's sins against their god. That disgusts me. It's so callous and ignorant. Saying that thousands of innocent men, women and children deserved to die because they sinned against their god.

I know it's not a popular opinion amoung relgious people.

Susanne - posted on 09/13/2011

I dont think its a simple thank god that pisses people off though i say thank god all the time and so do most people i know its the status that go on and on about how good god is and how they have been praying for this that and the other. I have one on my fb friends who posts regurlarly about how stressed she is and how she cant cope and that she is praying to God and asks us all to pray for her to find the strength blah blah after the third post this week it gets kinda old i dont come on facebook to listen to people going on about how God is going to help them pay the bills

Becky - posted on 09/13/2011

Meh, I kind of think Revenue Canada and the IRS are the devil, so I wouldn't think anything of it! lol Seriously, me personally, you can thank whoever you want for your good fortune and it's not going to bother me. Now, if I posted something about my own good fortune and you, knowing I believed in God, posted "praise Satan!", yeah, I'd be bothered by that. But if you want to thank him for the good in your own life, have at 'er! I don't see saying "thank God" as preaching anymore than I would see saying, "thank modern medicine!" as preaching. Not everyone believes modern medicine is a good thing either... If a person goes on and on about it, well, then it crosses over into preaching. But we all have to put up with hearing things we don't necessarily want to hear, whether they deal with religion, politics, the weather... Or should everyone just stop ever saying anything that someone else might not want to hear or find disagreeable?