going over this one more time.

?? - posted on 08/24/2010

I don't remember which person posted it, but somewhere along the lines someone asked 'How do you teach your child that it's ok for you to do something but not ok for them to do it'



I do understand this argument against spanking, and biting, and whatever other methods anyone is opposed too. But unfortunately it really has no baring on anything because in many aspects of parenting we have to teach that in different ways.



Forget spanking and forget biting and forget all that crap. Take it to a more innocent level.



We have to teach our children that doing 1 thing is ok in 1 circumstance but in any other circumstance it is not ok.



For example.

Throwing a ball is acceptable. Throwing your fork is not.



Kicking a ball is acceptable. Kicking your sibling is not.



Pushing someone away when they are hurting you, is ok. Pushing someone for no reason, is not.



There are different variations of behaviors that are acceptable depending on the situation. And I believe the same thing has to be taught IF someone is going to utilize spanking and if they're going to bite their child to show them that it does hurt - like I explained in the other thread.



It's part of parenting. It's called communication and teaching. I do 100% agree that there are hundreds of other more positive and effective methods on how to teach your child without spanking or the biting, but if that method is going to be utilized it really isn't a hard thing to understand and grasp the concept of how a parent would then explain their actions further and teach their child why it's acceptable in one circumstance but unacceptable for them to repeat the action.



Edited to add:



For the record I don't spank or hit my son, I've never bit him - well maybe once, but it was cause he was just so cute I nibbled on his toe. BUT I do have to teach my child that it's ok to throw a ball, outside, not inside. I do have to teach him that it's ok to kick a ball but not mommy or daddy. I do have to teach him that it's ok to stab his food with a fork, but not the dog. I have to teach him LOTS of things where he has to understand that it's ok for mommy to do it, but it's not ok for him to do it. I would bet all the money in the world that every other parent has to do the same damn thing.

Chatty - posted on 08/24/2010

I totally agree, Tara. All spanking teaches is to avoid being caught for fear of being spanked. It doesn't teach them WHY, EVEN IF YOU EXPLAIN the "why", the spanking negates any explanation. Even if they tried to understand you, they don't understand why it was necessary to hit them to prove your point. It's wrong and completely unecessary on so many levels.

Tara - posted on 08/24/2010

Again my attitude is that it's not okay to use physical punishment on a child of any age for any reason. I don't think it depends on what type of kid you have and I don't buy the idea that it's a last resort response. If it weren't an option than there would surely be another "last resort" that didn't involve violence. I think if a parent has to resort to a violent act in order to discipline their child than they are not being resourceful enough and tare just taking the easy way out. And just because hitting or popping etc.may work in that the child learns not to hit etc. it is not based on respect for personal space etc. it is based on the fear of being hurt by a parent. So they avoid the behaviour that may illicit a smack.
For example:
Your 4 year old will not stop pushing her 12 month old brother over every time he stands up. You have tried time outs, removed her and allowed her back, taken away tv etc. finally you tell her if she does it one more time she will get a spanking. (last resort scenario). She does it again, you walk over and calmly tell her she is getting spanked because you warned her etc. so you spank her, she cries, you make her say sorry and tell you she won't do it again. This does not mean she will not do it again, it means she will try harder not to get caught so that she can avoid your punishment.

If however you have found her pushing over her brother and you sit down and tell her calmly that if she can not stop pushing him over you will not allow her in the same room as her brother. She can be in the other rooms of the house (that she's already allowed in) but not whatever room he is in. Explain that this is to keep him safe and that you would do the same for her if a big kid was pushing her around. Talk about personal space and why we should be respectful of that. And then practice it with her. Show her what is okay and why and what is not and why etc.
Again, kids are smarter than we give them credit for and when we resort to violence as a last resort to make them obey us we are stifling their ability to grow up to make smart choices about themselves and the world. We want peace in the future? It starts with acting peacefully at home. It's a rule in our home.

Chatty - posted on 08/24/2010

Perfect, then we're agreeable. Oh, haha! I just realized that you were responding to my post from the previous page, not the one at the top of this second page....my bad! Apparently I AM the one who is confused.

Carry on...

Tah - posted on 08/24/2010

ok...im confused...im just saying the same thing you are...this is a debate and you said to me in your response...sorry if you thought i was bwing a smartass cause that time i wasnt....but im glad to give you my permission...

Chatty - posted on 08/24/2010

Thanks, Tah.....I'm glad I've got your permission. I thought this was a debate? Aren't we supposed to offer our opinion? Who else's opinion should I be offering?

Tah - posted on 08/24/2010

@ Dana...you said the key words..to you...and you are certainly entitled to feel that way....

Gina - posted on 08/24/2010

I agree with Loureen, there has to be a better way to teach our kids than by hurting them.That's what this is, IMO.

Chatty - posted on 08/24/2010

I just want to add that normally I do say "to each their own" and I KNOW every child is different but that doesn't apply to these issues....not for me, anyhow.

Chatty - posted on 08/24/2010

Tah, I don't care how different my children are....I will never bite, smack, spank, hit, pop, whatever label you want to call it. To me, it's ALL the same shit! It's a violation of their human rights.

Tah - posted on 08/24/2010

every child is different, positve reinforcement works for some..time-outs..taking toys...being made to write definitions(older children)..etc..but every child is different...and since i dont know every child personally, i can feel or think whatever i like...but i dont know what you have tried, what has worked and what hasn't worked for you...shoot my 3 are like night, day and 2am on the weekends alone....what worked for my 13 year old i didnt even need to do with the 8 year old and the 3 year old is in a league of his own...i have 11 nieces and nephews whom i have wither babysat, or helped raised since i was 7 years old(oldest 2 are 23..me 29)....sometimes they lived with me if my sisters were in the middle of moving into a house etc for a short time...and they all responded differently to diiferent forms of discipline....so Tyrone may not have needed a swat on the butt, but im here to say that Laain did without a doubt.....i know we all like to say my ways are better and maybe you should try this or that....but in reality...i dont know you or your child's story...i just know that i dont bite to get you back to prove it hurts...esp a baby....i spank as a last resort and im not mad when i do it...

*Lisa* - posted on 08/24/2010

Just curious as to how old your boy was at the biting stage Sharon?? How old was he when it all happened?

Chatty - posted on 08/23/2010

Sharon, just because someone doesn't remember something doesn't mean it didn't affect them in some way and play a part in who they are.

I also agree.....I don't understand the inconsistency. It's a very basic human rights issue for me.

Charlie - posted on 08/23/2010

Nope dont like any of it , i just feel there are much better , more positive and effective ways to go about parenting .

Sharon - posted on 08/23/2010

Here's a thought... if my son (15yrs) doesn't remember smelling this mans' asscrack in a seriously personal way - how the hell is he gonna remember me biting his finger firmly but not sharply?

Trust me that this a family favorite story that we love to tell on him when he giving his younger sibs hell with naughty stories from their babyhood.

Joanna - posted on 08/23/2010

Personally, I think any sort of physical discipline should be done as a last resort, and then only for discipline's sake and never out of anger or malice. So for me, as long as a parent is disciplining with those sorts of guidelines in mind, go for whatever works for you.

Tah - posted on 08/23/2010

i spank...i dont bite..and i dont bite a 10 month old...if my child is doing something that can cause harm to themselves or others and taking toys, timeout....etc..trust me, we have done it...(with my 3 year old, it takes 15 minutes to get him in there and thats because he has my husband and i's stubborness rolled up into one)...he has already broken one arm and just did the other because apparently he likes a matching set....his school teachers named him the daredevil just from what he does in class...so every once in a while when he is going to be in the ER i will swat his butt,it doesnt hurt him but it gets his attention and then i sit him on my lap and tell him what he wasnt hearing before while about to swan dive off a counter trying to reach his granola bars after the 100th time of hearing no... not often but when its needed...but i dont spank him cause he spanked me, like the people on the biting thread were suggesting, i def wasnt spanking anyone at 10 months or biting or slapping for that matter....

Elisabeth - posted on 08/23/2010

My three children when they were tiny had their hands smacked as a last resort if they repeatedly returned to touching something they shouldn't. All up they may have had this done 3 times each if that.

The same for a smack on the bottom when they were a little older. It was used rarely and only as a final resort if they continued to ignore me.

Again, it was used infrequently and at the ages of 12 and 17 I doubt my boys would even remember being smacked as it probably only happened a handful of times.

My now 4 year old only just got a smack the other day ... from memory it was the 3rd one she has had in her life.

Unfortunately with the amount of child abuse and bashing that goes on these days, the definition of the word 'smack' can mean so many things which is why I think some people are entirely anti smacking.

Stifler's - posted on 08/23/2010

People agree with spanking and not biting because the bottom is the cushy part.. with no bones. You spank kids on the butt when they are deliberately doing something wrong and know it's wrong and you've told them to not do it but they continue to do it. My parents spanked me and my sister and we turned out good, they don't spank my brother or other sister and they are little shits who don't know the meaning of consequences. So I'll be spanking my kid.

Jodi - posted on 08/23/2010

Tara, I think, too, when you refer to the biting thread, that was referring to a 10 month old baby (well, the original thread was). While I have spanked my children (I can count on one hand, and it isn't the best option for my kids, so I don't bother any more), and I don't have an issue if others choose to use this method of discipline, I wouldn't condone spanking a 10 month old anyway. So that may explain an inconsistency.......



Edited to Add: Just for the record, I am not going to encourage people to spank, but I am not going to judge someone who sometimes does....unless it is a baby.

Meghan - posted on 08/23/2010

I know a woman who found spanking wasn't working and decided to stop...her alternative was to throw her 2 year old daughter into cold shower (btw the little girl was afraid of the shower to begin with). I have a hard time understanding how pain or scaring a child teaches them anything.

Sharon - posted on 08/23/2010

Oh and the REAL picture was HYSTERICAL.

We had the most difficult time not laughing our asses off. The mans' feelings were totally hurt. He didn't have any kids, didn't have any nieces or nephews so trying to explain that kids are like wild animals and utterly unpredictable was the only way to get him to understand why our kid did that.

Sharon - posted on 08/23/2010

since 99.99% of our lessoning is "no! that hurts, thats wrong, I don't like that" I'd imagine (it never happened) that my childs first response would be to say "NO NO!"

Tara - posted on 08/23/2010

The mental picture I got from your story was pretty funny Sharon. :)
I have another question to pose, if you bite your toddler back because they bit you, what happens if another child bites your child and he then bites them back followed by a stern toddler voice saying "NO BITING". How do you explain that it's ok for mommy to bite you but not for you to bite other people even if they bit you first?

Sharon - posted on 08/23/2010

Seriously?

Look, spanking is the punishment of last resort.

Biting - I only had to bite one child. NOTHING worked for him. He bit me so hard that I still have a scar. He only had TWO TEETH! He just didn't get it that it HURT. I didn't bite him as in "see! now I did it to you!" I didn't "get back" at my child.

But all the "no-no's", time outs and redirection weren't working. Holding back my shrieks of pain weren't working either. So I bit his finger. Even though his language skills weren't that far along, I told him, "biting hurts, see? it HURTS, NO BITE." I didn't like it, but thank god the biting stopped.

We are talking about a kid who walked into a store, walked up behind a clerk (a friend of the family) grooved his nose into the mans ass cheeks AND BIT him hard enough to leave a bruise. Honestly - it was one of his first bites and we were utterly flabbergasted at why he would bite someone he saw infrequently but liked. After that we had to watch him like a hawk around anyone. He never bit because he was mad or frustrated - so redirecting those feelings wasn't an option. They just didn't happen.

Random people don't walk up to and bite me. If they did - they'd get one helluva a lesson that wouldn't include me biting them. So extending the same equality doesn't apply. And if someones toddler walked up and bit me - I'd redirect him to his parent and then avoid them until they figured out their own way to solve the biting issue.

Rosie - posted on 08/23/2010

i will have to say that i am a bit hypocritical when it comes to that. although i would not spank my child for hitting when i was spanking. i also feel that when spanking is done CORRECTLY, it's not an immediate reacction to your child doing something bad , like biting your child would be. it's a couple of warnings first, along with time outs and then last resort is spanking. i recognized in myself that i WAS spanking out of anger, i wasn't doing it correctly and have therefore stopped. i can completely see the difference between controlled, correct spanking and just hauling off and hitting your kid.
i don't recognize anything good out of immediately biting your child after they bit you. just as i wouldn't see the good in spanking your child immediately after they hit you.
am i making sense, lol?

Jessica - posted on 08/23/2010

I don't understand that inconsistency either. I disagree with all of them but even for people who do feel ok with physical punishment... why one and not the other?

Toni - posted on 08/23/2010

I am with you Tara I cannot understand how somebody can be ok with one and not the other! I personally will never smack, bite pinch etc my son because I believe that he deserves respect and violence does not give your child respect!

Jessica - posted on 08/23/2010

I don't ever intend to smack my son's bottom for anything but a *very* last resort. I will, however, be teaching him what my dad taught me when he gets older. If you can walk away from a fight, do it. Don't let words draw you into it. If, however, someone hits you, you have 3.5 seconds to react in self defence. Then run as fast as you can, come get me and mommy will sort the little shits out with a stern talking to their parents.