Health Care Reform Bill & Abortion add on... USA

Erin - posted on 03/23/2010

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...sooo no matter what, the strong links are going to be pulling the weight of the weaker links, regardless!!! So why not everyone pitch in to support the chain, which we all pull, so we all work towards a better society rather then try to pull apart, which divides society? BTW giving money to charities isn't the same as paying taxes! Don't the "fabulously wealthy" pay out unbelievable amounts in charities (they choose) so they can avoid paying taxes (on things they do not choose to support)? Maybe your right side pays for those reasons whereas the lefties would rather support their communities by paying thier taxes...

Sara - posted on 03/23/2010

But I think entitlement works both ways, Kelly. Sure, you've got the "have nots" who want something for nothing, but you have the "haves" who want everything no matter what the cost to anyone else, as long as they profit from it. The "me" mentality works both ways.

Kelly - posted on 03/23/2010

Jo, since you quoted me I will respond directly. Your "Sally" example was not that she was raped. My response was to the "Sally" that gave it up willingly. The number of abortions that are a result of rape or incest are so small, they shouldn't even be used in the arguement for abortion. I personally don't think abortion in the 1st trimester should be illegal. I just don't think they should be used as a form of birth control. No, I was not ready or able to be a mother at 14 or 15. That is why I wasn't spreading my legs at that age. Let's face it, even if you are one of those kids whose parents don't talk to you about sex, you would have to be living under a rock to not see sex in every facet of society these days. Kids know at a very early age about the mechanics of sex and where babies come from, whether their parents like it or not.

As far as welfare in general, there are many programs out there to help people get educated, but they have to WANT to get educated. You can't teach a man to fish if he doesn't want to hold the pole. And why should those "fabulously wealthy" people have to be forced to "share" the fruits of their labor? There are many wealthy people who CHOOSE to give huge amounts of money to charities. (its funny how conservatives, particularly politicians, tend to give more than their liberal counterparts) But what incentive is there for lower class people to work hard to GET the education, and work their way up, when they can continue to just live on the dole? When mothers teach their daughters that the more kids you pop out the more money you get? If that money vanished tomorrow, those people would be forced to explore other avenues right? I'm sorry, but the people who make the money sure as hell care, it's the people that don't make the money who don't care where it comes from, as long as they get it.

I just think it's funny that liberals see no problem in taking someone else's hard earned money and re-distributing it to people they think need it. Life is not fair, there are winners and losers. But we shouldn't be so quick to take from the haves and give to the have nots. All that does is perpetuate a state of entitlement where people want something for nothing.

?? - posted on 03/23/2010

Quoting Kelly:
So my message to 15 year old Sally would be you made your bed, now sleep in it. Its not an innocent baby's fault you screwed up.

Sally was raped at 14, or Sally was raped by her dad, she didn't make her bed, but you still want her to sleep in it and think that her innocent baby should automatically have to deal with the trauma that comes from being the product of rape, having an emotionally fucked teenage mom, or is not only the product of rape but incest too..... and that Sally screwed up ?

Maybe Sally did spread her legs when she was 14 and she got pregnant... when you were 14 were you completely ready and capable of taking care of a child? Maybe Sally is the daughter of one of the stupid ass mothers around here on COM who we've all ready say that they think it's the school systems responsibility to teach their kid about sex.

Sally's life is just as important as that embryo's life will be when it's a person. And maybe that embryo's important role in this world is giving Sally the opportunity to learn exactly what life can dish you sometimes if you don't educate yourself and make good decisions it could end up ruining your life or making your life 10x more difficult than it has to be... so she has an abortion -- which in all reality, her parents or family would be 'paying for' because they will be paying into it too not JUST everyone else who doesn't get abortions lol -- and then she goes on to be the next break through scientist.

Or she can have the kid, not learn anything, feel completely overwhelmed, sit on the welfare, keep pumping out babies, and your hard earned money will be payin for her and her kids to continue the cycle of poverty. Ohhhhhhh or maybe she can be the next Kate Gosslin or Octomom ! Or Britney Spears !!!! Classy classy.


Sarah makes an excellent point, the whole "I don't want my taxes going to pay for abortions" argument is a load of dogshit lol people pay taxes for all sorts of crap that they don't support - like WAR for example. But they can't just say "ahhh nahhh... we're good, we'll just keep THAT money, we'll pay for that though, and that... no not that, I don't support OLD PEOPLE pfft stupid old people...."

It's not about you (not directed at anyone in particular), it's about everyone. And if people would just grasp that concept, and work together instead of trying to put different things on the other side... things would go so much smoother. But apparently being negative and focusing on the negative is what a lot of people prefer to do... which, frankly, I find sad and disheartening.

Krista - posted on 03/23/2010

You know, that’s one thing that I just do NOT understand—during the debates about healthcare, I kept hearing opponents claiming that socialized medicine is a threat to freedom.



I live in a country that has had universal healthcare since before I was born.



And yet, I am still free. I’m free to come and go as I please, to pursue (or not) whatever religion I wish. I’m free to marry whomever I wish, and to pursue whatever career I wish. I’m free to start a business, drive a car, fly a plane and drink in public.



I’m free to speak out against my government without fear of recourse. I’m free to vote my conscience. I’m free to wear whatever I like. I’m free to raise my children in the manner that I see fit.



The way I see it is this: I am MORE free than people living in countries without that social safety net. Having universal healthcare allows me the freedom to not have to stay in a shitty job just because it has good health insurance. It allows me the freedom to consider starting my own business, because I know that I have health insurance regardless. It allows me the freedom to make decisions regarding medical treatment for me and my family, without having to worry about how the hell I’m going to pay the bills.



Socialized medicine has given me GREATER freedom than a lot of Americans have. It’s not a threat to freedom—it enables freedom.



Having that social safety net has not prompted the people of my country to sit on their asses and do nothing. Instead, it has encouraged them to take risks and to strive to achieve, because at least they know that if things don't work out, their lives won't be destroyed. People are a lot more likely to take those risks when they know that the safety net is there.

Sarah - posted on 03/23/2010

I've never really understood why people say "i don't want my taxes paying for.....(insert item here)"
Taxes go towards all sorts of things for the greater good, for society as a whole.
There's lot's of things that we get taxed for that i'm not too keen on, but hey, there's lot's of things we pay taxes for that are very good for EVERYBODY.

The abortion part of the discussion, i'm pro choice.
Here in the UK i believe you don't have to pay for them at all on the NHS.
You can go back and forth on the rights and wrongs of it, the fact is, it is a HUGE grey area, unless you have the time and resources to judge each individual case, it HAS to remain legal and up to the woman involved.

Hope that all makes sense! :)

Chatty - posted on 03/23/2010

LOL! Sounds to me like another abortion debate??

Erin - posted on 03/23/2010

In regards to abortion and every life has a meaning: the life that was aborted has a meaning, even if it is to advance the knowledge & expertise of the medical personnel or make Sally or whoever an advocate for victims of rape, or teen violence or some other cause that she then becomes a role model for someone else because she was kicked down & overcame. Every experience is an opprotunity to learn...sure not everyone gets this, but its there.

In regards to welfare...if y'all want to help ppl so this is only temporary then educate them! Give them an opprotunity to expand their knowledge & gain employable skills. You know the whole give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life thing! Seriously if you think that a single mom working 2 jobs to pay her bills while her kid goes to daycare after being in school all day, until they are old enough to stay home and in turn they home alone after school and that child becomes one of the many lost youths who don't have the proper guidance, and then become the uncontrollable violent youth that you will bitch about next, because NO ONES THERE because mom could be working 2 jobs and may STILL be on state assisstance because she got pregnant @ 16 and has no skills or family to help...we just sentenced them both to hell because what? Because you can't figure out that a nation is only as good as its poor! But hey maybe mom's 2 jobs are enough to keep her off state aid, and good riddance because OBVIOUSLY someone in that predicament deserves a life of shit because that is what they dealt themselves...and I (the unbelievably wealthy) who make considerably more then I could ever use in my life time needs to keep and hoard my money because I MADE IT, ITS ALL MINE, I obviously failed learning how to share as a 3 yr old! When the hell will all of (general) you people drop your BS facades and get over it! Who cares who makes the money! Make it so even the "lazy trash" on welfare work for their community and make sure that NO ONE starves and EVERYONE has shelter and their basic needs met, because until our basic needs are met we can't possibly help better society! Don't you realize that if you help the poor you better society for EVERYONE, EVEN YOU!

Oh, and I thought that people are moving their businesses over seas because they could pay people less money and in turn make more for themselves.

?? - posted on 03/23/2010

Your people were already paying a huge price by not having health insurance available, period.

Kelly - posted on 03/23/2010

I may be jumping the gun a little bit. I really don't like where this is going though. Both sides have been very vocal on their feelings re: healthcare reform. If you choose to believe the spew coming out of the WH and Pelosi, that is your perogative. The opposers of healthcare are not spreading "fear and hate mongering" however, they are pointing out the not so good points. Healthcare will not be the "same way as we've always had it". People will now be FORCED to buy insurance. If you don't, the IRS will fine you. If you are a business, you will pay penalties for not insuring your employees. Of course, if you are what the government considers "poor" (on a sliding scale) you will receive subsidies to help you pay your premiums. Yes, kids with pre-existing conditions will be covered, and adults will be starting in 2014. But there is no limit on what can be charged. Where does the subsidized help come from? TAXES and lots more of them. The thing that bothers me the most about the liberal idea here, is that they have no problem expecting the "rich" to pay more. What happens when the "rich" get sick of paying the tab? Why do you think businesses are moving off shore, and people are moving their money to investments in say, Liechtenstein? Not to mention, being "rich" is relative. And the far left's sliding scale of poverty will insure that their will always be "poor" people.

So do I like the fact that the government is now going to have more control over my life choices and my bank account? Absolutely not. Only time will tell which side was right and wrong on this issue. And I wish it could be so simple as an "I told you so" situation. Part of me hopes that you are right, because if I am right, we are all going to pay the price.

Sara - posted on 03/23/2010

Kelly, people do still work hard and become successful in this country, it's not like giving everyone a chance to have health insurance makes us all "lazy ass people". That's a huge and ridiculous leap. Other countries with **gasp** socialist healthcare systems have hugely successful people. I'm sorry, but I don't know where some of you guys get this stuff, you act like it's the end of the damn world. It's NOT government run healthcare! It's just healthcare the same way you've always had it but with consumer protections and regulations so that people don't get screwed by corporations that profit off their illness. I'm not trying to be mean here, because I think you're a smart lady Kelly, but some of the arguments coming from the right on this just blow my mind...they just don't seem to be based on facts or reality, but on the fear and hate mongering rhetroric from the past 14 months.

Kelly - posted on 03/23/2010

I guess I will be the bitch here and say that I don't want to pay for anyone elses abortion, and I am also not willing to pay for them to raise their baby. The entire welfare system needs to be revamped and have firm time limits set. I understand that people fall on hard times and need help getting back on their feet. But that help needs to be TEMPORARY until they get another job. It is not my fault someone picks a deadbeat (or 5) "babies daddies" and it is not my responsibility to pay their bills. If you are healthy enough to spread your legs then you are healthy enough to get a JOB. And if you still have time to get pregnant again, you have time to get a second job if thats what it takes to pay your bills.

Yes, there are consequences for actions. So my message to 15 year old Sally would be you made your bed, now sleep in it. Its not an innocent baby's fault you screwed up. Have the baby, get assistance with daycare while you finish high school, and get a job, or give it to a family who will love it.

Right now our government is trying to level the playing field, which will only produce a country full of lazy ass people. Instead of allowing people to work hard and be successful, they want everyone to be dependent on the government for everything, cradle to grave. This monster of a healthcare bill is the next step. I agree with Kelly Hazel. This bill has so many other things that are disasterous, the abortion issue is just one small piece of the puzzle.

Lisamarie - posted on 03/23/2010

I am pro-life, well, mostly! I personally think the idea of getting the government to pay for someone to kill your baby is disgusting! Abortion has become too common place when it's got to the stage where you're (general you) not "ashamed" or at least feel bad about it, ie, the woman tweeting her abortion=vulgar!! You decided to open your legs you live with the consequences!! And yes, I would rather pay for a woman to care for her children than kill them. EVERY life is worth living, whether you are a master scientist or the next Bill Gates, why should one life be more precious than another?

However, saying that I think seeing as our world has got to this stage I wouldn't mind paying for a woman to have an abortion ONCE! Anymore than that and the woman needs to be sterilised! As for medical and rape reasons of course, by all means do what is best for your body!

?? - posted on 03/22/2010

alright sorry to triple post but I was just discussing this with Devon and we thought of something that I thought I would throw out there... Veronica you say that every fetus, person, embryo has a purpose... and I have heard people say that 'things happen for a reason' ......... like someone getting raped happens for a reason, to teach them how to be stronger or be able to learn something about themselves .......... so would it be all that far off to say that 15 yr old Sally getting pregnant, that embryo or that fetus that was aborted, its purpose was to teach Sally that her decisions have consiquences and that she should focus on school and bettering herself so that maybe SHE could be the next breakthrough scientist?

Kelly - posted on 03/22/2010

The abortion issue is such a microscopic issue when compared with everything that is utterly wrong about this bill that it was silly to argue over it while important issues were ignored.
I'm glad they changed the wording, but I could care less. Abortions are cheap, and if you're planning to use that as birth control when your pill doesn't work or your condom breaks, then you should have the extra few hundred bucks it takes to get one.

The current bill prohibits funding for "optional" abortions, or abortions where the mother was not raped and is not in danger. The original wording would have also paid for abortions to "defective" babies.

I hate that abortion talk took up so much time that some really important issues that never should have stayed in the bill were never removed and are now law and a lot of important issues that should have been in it were never added.

?? - posted on 03/22/2010

I'll also mention the fact that Olivia on Law & Order has A LOT of emotional issues. AAAAAAA LLLLLOOOOTTTTTT of emotional issues - which is part of her character.

I'm not saying all products of rape end up to be emotionally fucked, but I can't imagine how anyone wouldn't have SOME sort of emotional issue from knowing they weren't wanted, they were the product of rape.

Also, I can not even remotely imagine how that conversation would go with a teenage girl who was raped by her father and became pregnant and someone suggesting she not only keep the baby but give the baby up for adoption because the kid MIGHT become a "breakthrough scientist" or some other possibilty. I guess the opposite argument would have to be, "have an abortion, your kid might be the next Hitler!" Both idea's are ludacris.

But anyways my point to begin with - there are different factors to every situation and where Veronica can't fathom the idea of their hard earned money going to an abortion, others can't fathom the idea of their hard earned money going to some deadbeat mom. There is a lot to consider when it comes to abortion and different people's views. Ultimately none of it really matters in regards to the OP..... lol

?? - posted on 03/22/2010

So what about all those people/infants/babies that are abused and neglected and end up homeless and addicted and neglected for their entire lives just cause their mother couldn't get their act together? You're ok with your hard earned money goin to the crack heads, junkies and irresponsible burdens just cause there MIGHT be an Olivia that emerges from the mix?

I would think it's pretty safe to say that there are just as many, if not more, children that end up a 'burden of society' than end up as an "Olivia" from Law & Order.


I am pro-choice. I think that every woman needs to make the responsible choice for her own life and the life of her child. I think that any woman who decides to have a child needs to know how she's going to provide for that child. I am NOT AGAINST women being on welfare to help be able to provide for her child and I think she needs to do much more than just that -- but I'm a realist. I know there are SO MANY women that rely on the system because they can't be bothered to get off their asses and they see their children as a free ride, spread em and yay more money from the welfares.

I would rather that woman have an abortion and do something with her stupid ass rather than breed and expect society to pay for those children to 'have a chance'. She could get her shit together and give her children the chance they deserve herself, instead of rely on everyone else to do it for her.

Veronica - posted on 03/22/2010

For me, its not a whole lot of food for thought -- i feel all people/infants/fetuses/embryos have purpose in this world - that woman didnt just become pregnant just because. How do we know we aren't killing off the next leader, or breakthrough scientist, or who the embryo is going to be and what their contribution, example or part they will have in this world. I am more open and willing to pay for a someone given a chance and a life - than paying for killing one. It would then mean that i would have to accept abortion. There is adoption, and there is a such thing as a person growing up and taking responsibility for their child -- if they can spread em and they can pull down their pants - then they should accept the fact that the % of getting pregnant has already increased by just the simple act of having sex at all. As for rape or incest - that really is iffy - and i really honestly dont know how i would be about it either - but on the other hand that baby was still conceived for one purpose or another regardless -- I look at Law and Order (not a huge tv person - but love the show) the character Olivia was a product of a rape - she (on the show) is an excellent cop, and all around 'good person' -- now her part in society (of course its a tv show) would not be there - she would not be there doing what she does fighting crime and solving crime if her mother decided to abort her. I look at this for all aborted children- back to what i said before - how do we know who we are killing off?
Im starting to go in circles - but my stance will remain. Id rather give and help support another baby/child into this world. God always provides - regardless of how. Money isnt an issue with that. But i will not put my money towards the killing of an innocent baby.

?? - posted on 03/22/2010

But then there's people who would rather their hard earned money go to that one abortion than their hard earned money going to a lifetime of welfare because the woman wasn't ready to have a kid and made bad choices and ends up relying on the system for the rest of her kids childhood because she can't afford to support her child on her own............... just some food for thought there...

Veronica - posted on 03/22/2010

I personally would have to say - that being that I am against abortion - I would not want my and my husbands hard earned dollars to go to killing innocent lives. Period.

Erin - posted on 03/22/2010

Well that doesn't sound too bad then...

Krista - posted on 03/22/2010

Yep. Sara's got it nailed. So Bart Stupak, who is pro-life and caused a major delay in the bill over his quibbling, is basically acting like he won a giant concession from Obama -- when in reality, the EO will simply reiterate what was already law.

Sara - posted on 03/22/2010

This is my understanding:



A precedent set in 1976 with the so-called Hyde Amendment would stand and no abortions would be paid for with government money. That amendment has applied mainly to Medicaid, the federal-state health program for the poor.



The last-minute compromise: a promise that after the health care bill passed, Obama would sign an executive order affirming that it would not result in any government funding for abortions.



While the legislation as written maintains current law, the executive order provides additional safeguards to ensure that the status quo is upheld and enforced, and that the health care legislation's restrictions against the public funding of abortions cannot be circumvented.



So, it doesn't really change anything. I think the whole abortion issue was just an emotional issue that the Republicans could bring into it to get people on the bandwagon to oppose this bill.

Jocelyn - posted on 03/22/2010

I heard that funding for abortions will be available for incest, rape or when the pregnancy is hazardous to the mothers health. Other than that I guess it will still be out of pocket for "normal" situations. But that's just what I gathered from it.