Health Care Reform-USA

ME - posted on 08/15/2009

Jennifer...I also participated in some protests of Bush's admin. No violence, no screaming...we marched through town holding signs...someone might have been playing a drum...Nope...don't remember angry violent outbursts anywhere during the protests I was part of. This doesn't mean, of course, that it didn't happen...but I never saw it.

Alison - posted on 08/15/2009

Quote: "Only if it helps you??? What if it helps ALL those other people on that list...will you slap and Obama sticker on you car then? Or are right wing Americans really that selfish??"

I thought I would just shorten this by moving the quote so the post doesn't get too massive. I hope that is ok with everyone.


I said I wasn't going to comment on this issue anymore, but I changed my mind.
People are concerned that they will have higher taxes. I am concerned that it will lead to a means tested health service. This could result in leaving out the very people who have paid for it. Many people like me don't have much disposable income and are uninsured, and I don't think the reforms will change anything. I don't think it is unreasonable for people like me to have concerns.

I think it is good if people continue to debate this issue because every person in America will be affected so every view needs to be taken on board. I was attempting to explain why some people see things the way they do and get angry about it. I don't think that makes me selfish. I'm not American either, but I will hold my hands up to being right wing on some issues.

In answer to the question, I never said that I was against it. I think it's great that all those people could be helped if it works. So yes, I might update my profile and have an Obama sticker if it happens even if it doesn't benefit me.

Jennifer - posted on 08/15/2009

As a protester in the "W" years, I have to disagree with characterizations that the current protests are like the protests back then. During the time I protested, I remember protests as outside the staged "town hall meetings" or being signs held in the back of a room or exposing a shirt with a slogan. Non-violent, non-disruptive protesters regularly got kicked out and threatened with jail time. That's very different from what is going on now.



Now, I think everyone, even the people on this forum I disagree with have a right to voice their opinions. I don't see anyone calling anyone here a nazi or a racist. In fact, the only people I see over and over talking about the "race card" or race at all in the health care debate are those against health care reform being defensive.

From my point of view, it looks like:

"This bill is going to kill people! It's anti-American!"

"Can you support that with facts?"

"Quit calling us racist or Nazis!"

"Can we have a civil debate about the issue at hand?"

Now, that's my opinion on how it looks. How does it look to the other side?



The main concerns I've seen raised that have validity and merit so far are: It'll cost too much. It's not going to reform the system in a meaningful manner. It's not going to do what people say it's going to do. What else?

Isobel - posted on 08/14/2009

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Mary:

Quoting Alison:

I wonder who is going to benefit from it. I bet only those who are on welfare or very low income. I bet that still leaves out most of the backbone of the country who pays for everthing and gets nothing in return. I'll be pretty ticked off myself if that ends up being the case. I'm all for reform, but I don't see how it is possible for the whole of America.

Are you for real Alison? Right above your post I explained WHO ELSE this reform would help. People WITH jobs whos pre-existing conditions keep them from buying insurance, people who've gotten seriously ill and been DROPPED by their private insurance, and people who are going bankrupt DESPITE having insurance because it DOESN'T cover them sufficiently....And, it will also help the rest of us, whos tax dollars are ALREADY paying for the millions of emergency room visits made by uninsured people across the country each year...I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I am for real because they way they are selling it is not how it will end up in reality. This is politics, therefore it must be true *scoffs*  What is so unreal about being skeptical of what politicians propose? I'll eat my words and stick an Obama sticker on my car if it helps me. I'll even have him as profile pic on here. I'm not gonna download one yet because I honestly don't see it happening. But I have been wrong before.

Only if it helps you??? What if it helps ALL those other people on that list...will you slap and Obama sticker on you car then?  Or are right wing Americans really that selfish??

Isobel - posted on 08/14/2009

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Mary:

Quoting Alison:

I wonder who is going to benefit from it. I bet only those who are on welfare or very low income. I bet that still leaves out most of the backbone of the country who pays for everthing and gets nothing in return. I'll be pretty ticked off myself if that ends up being the case. I'm all for reform, but I don't see how it is possible for the whole of America.

Are you for real Alison? Right above your post I explained WHO ELSE this reform would help. People WITH jobs whos pre-existing conditions keep them from buying insurance, people who've gotten seriously ill and been DROPPED by their private insurance, and people who are going bankrupt DESPITE having insurance because it DOESN'T cover them sufficiently....And, it will also help the rest of us, whos tax dollars are ALREADY paying for the millions of emergency room visits made by uninsured people across the country each year...I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I am for real because they way they are selling it is not how it will end up in reality. This is politics, therefore it must be true *scoffs*  What is so unreal about being skeptical of what politicians propose? I'll eat my words and stick an Obama sticker on my car if it helps me. I'll even have him as profile pic on here. I'm not gonna download one yet because I honestly don't see it happening. But I have been wrong before.

Only if it helps you??? What if it helps ALL those other people on that list...will you slap and Obama sticker on you car then?  Or are right wing Americans really that selfish??

Jeannette - posted on 08/14/2009

Oh good...I couln't find the UHC thread I was directed to in another post!

I am all for revamping our medical insurance! Listening to those who have experience with nationalized health care, I can't wait!

But alas, *sigh* ours is not to be like theirs. This apparently is a small step in that it is more inclusive than medicaid/medicare. It will cost to get it. Taxes may very well go up...it depends on how much this actually costs us. So for those saying that taxes won't be paying for it, don't be in love with that idea. Anything the government does just about, costs more money than they planned for, and unless Russia is going to be co-owner (China owns America now) taxes will go up.

I receive federal insurance through my federal job. It is okay, but my sister's husband works for Best Buy; his insurnace is MUCH better! I am afraid I will not be able to opt in to this, and I actually would if it were better than what mine offers! GEHA pays squat when it comes to vision! GEHA pays squat when it comes to oral surgery (unless your teeth are impacted) and you find that out AFTER the fact! GEHA pays soooo little on dental cleanings, fillings, x-rays, we are sometimes loathed to do it...we have 3 kids and we pay 154.00 every time we have their teeth cleaned! That does not incl anything else. We pay for glasses out of pocket, eye exams out of pocket, braces full price - and out of pocket! My hubby has been in the hospital 2 times, it is not bankrupting us, because we pay 5.00 to 10.00/month to each medical bill we get. As long as you pay and they take it, they cannot take you to court. (in TX)

Our congressmen, senators, president and vice president obviously have better insurance than the rest of the lowly federal workers!

I hope I can opt in...if it is based on income and whether or not you already have ins...we're s****ed!

Alison - posted on 08/13/2009

I am a bit shocked that everyone is jumping on my posts just becuase I am not convinced by something. I never even said I was against it, I was just saying that I taking it all with a big bag of salt.



I'm not gonna debate this anymore because all I wanted to do was express my view. It's called Debating Moms because everyone doesn't have to agree with everyone else. The good thing about democracy is that you don't have to agree with everything the governmant does either. I'm happy to respectfully dissagree and leave it at that.

Jenny - posted on 08/13/2009

With that kind of attitude Alison it's a wonder that anything at all gets done in government. Do you want a government or not? Cause if you do then, even if you don't agree with them, let them do their damn job!

ME - posted on 08/13/2009

Quoting Alison:

Quoting Mary:

Quoting Alison:

I wonder who is going to benefit from it. I bet only those who are on welfare or very low income. I bet that still leaves out most of the backbone of the country who pays for everthing and gets nothing in return. I'll be pretty ticked off myself if that ends up being the case. I'm all for reform, but I don't see how it is possible for the whole of America.

Are you for real Alison? Right above your post I explained WHO ELSE this reform would help. People WITH jobs whos pre-existing conditions keep them from buying insurance, people who've gotten seriously ill and been DROPPED by their private insurance, and people who are going bankrupt DESPITE having insurance because it DOESN'T cover them sufficiently....And, it will also help the rest of us, whos tax dollars are ALREADY paying for the millions of emergency room visits made by uninsured people across the country each year...I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I am for real because they way they are selling it is not how it will end up in reality. This is politics, therefore it must be true *scoffs*  What is so unreal about being skeptical of what politicians propose? I'll eat my words and stick an Obama sticker on my car if it helps me. I'll even have him as profile pic on here. I'm not gonna download one yet because I honestly don't see it happening. But I have been wrong before.

 

Yeah...well, I guess if it doesn't help you personally, then it isn't worth doing...Isn't that what's wrong with our country to a certain extent! It isn't going to help EVERY individual in some huge life-changing way...but it IS going to help a lot of people who deserve help...not lazy people, but people who cannot fight a corrupt system on their own!

Esther - posted on 08/13/2009

Quoting Mary:

I can't thank you enough for introducing me to this blogger Esther...I had never heard of him before reading some of your previous posts...and I LOVE what he has to say here as well...THANK YOU SO MUCH!

You're welcome. I don't agree with AS on everything (he favors a flat tax for example) but he's a smart, informed and honest person who keeps an open mind and is willing to adjust his position in accordance with changing circumstances and new evidence. That's pretty rare these days. He's always a worthwile read.

Sara - posted on 08/13/2009

Yeah, but the point is that some action has to be taken before the entire system goes bankrupt and collapses. That is not an "if" scenario, but a "when" scenario. I'd personally like for people to take their heads out of the sand and suggest things to fix the system instead of just dump all over the current plan. The current plan isn't perfect, but it's a START...

Alison - posted on 08/13/2009

Quoting Mary:

Quoting Alison:

I wonder who is going to benefit from it. I bet only those who are on welfare or very low income. I bet that still leaves out most of the backbone of the country who pays for everthing and gets nothing in return. I'll be pretty ticked off myself if that ends up being the case. I'm all for reform, but I don't see how it is possible for the whole of America.

Are you for real Alison? Right above your post I explained WHO ELSE this reform would help. People WITH jobs whos pre-existing conditions keep them from buying insurance, people who've gotten seriously ill and been DROPPED by their private insurance, and people who are going bankrupt DESPITE having insurance because it DOESN'T cover them sufficiently....And, it will also help the rest of us, whos tax dollars are ALREADY paying for the millions of emergency room visits made by uninsured people across the country each year...I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I am for real because they way they are selling it is not how it will end up in reality. This is politics, therefore it must be true *scoffs*  What is so unreal about being skeptical of what politicians propose? I'll eat my words and stick an Obama sticker on my car if it helps me. I'll even have him as profile pic on here. I'm not gonna download one yet because I honestly don't see it happening. But I have been wrong before.

Sara - posted on 08/13/2009

My husband and I were discussing this last night because I am still mystified as to where all this anger comes from when people at these town hall meetings say things like "I won't let you destroy America" and make accusations that were turning into a communist/socialist government. My husband brought up the point that we all grew up, especially the generation that seems to be the most against this reform, with the deep, indoctrinated fear and disgust of the USSR. Hence, throwing out words like "communist" and "socialist" by the right-wing scream machines automatically makes most people's buttholes pucker, because they think they're getting ready to get screwed. Silly. Let's see what all these people think of the status quo when they lose their jobs and can't afford COBRA and have a pre-existing condition that they now can't get coverage for. People have no foresight. I'm not saying that Congress is going to put out the best plan, but you know what? It's a start, and we have GOT to start somewhere.

Cathy - posted on 08/13/2009

Quoting Joy :

What ticks me off is that so many people think that Obama's plan is A) funded by the government and provided for free (via "hard working tax payer's dollars") and that B) it's gonna kill Grandma & Grandpa (friggin Palin and her "Death Panel").

A national health service that will kill Grandma and Grandpa???? We Brits can't do anything right .... I'm missing out on inheritence X2!

ME - posted on 08/13/2009

Quoting Alison:

I wonder who is going to benefit from it. I bet only those who are on welfare or very low income. I bet that still leaves out most of the backbone of the country who pays for everthing and gets nothing in return. I'll be pretty ticked off myself if that ends up being the case. I'm all for reform, but I don't see how it is possible for the whole of America.

Are you for real Alison? Right above your post I explained WHO ELSE this reform would help. People WITH jobs whos pre-existing conditions keep them from buying insurance, people who've gotten seriously ill and been DROPPED by their private insurance, and people who are going bankrupt DESPITE having insurance because it DOESN'T cover them sufficiently....And, it will also help the rest of us, whos tax dollars are ALREADY paying for the millions of emergency room visits made by uninsured people across the country each year...I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ME - posted on 08/13/2009

I can't thank you enough for introducing me to this blogger Esther...I had never heard of him before reading some of your previous posts...and I LOVE what he has to say here as well...THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Esther - posted on 08/13/2009

Here's another great post by AS on health care:



Violence Over Healthcare



The passions out there are somewhat mystifying to me. Here is what we are debating: should we demand that insurance companies provide policies to anyone regardless of pre-existing conditions? Should we help the working poor buy that insurance with subsidies? Are competitive exchanges for health insurance a good or bad thing? Would a public option or a co-op help bring down healthcare costs? Does it make sense for the government to study the effectiveness of various treatments as a guide for doctors? These are all worth debating - and if you break it down into these questions, a majority would back them. Obama's proposals were very, very well illuminated in the campaign; there's nothing here that we weren't told to expect; in fact, he seems over-eager to placate moderates and keep some Republicans within the healthcare reform tent.



But the vicious anger from the far right, which is to say what is currently the right, seems totally out of proportion to these reforms. Where does that come from? It comes from the same place as the tea-party protests. It's partisan, of course - most Republicans, including Glenn Reynolds, ignored the deficit under Bush, blamed Obama for it within minutes of his election, and never refer to the impact of the recession on deficits. But it is also surely cultural - an expression of the rage some in white America feel at the new social make-up of their country. I just sat through a PJTV segment on Sarah Palin, in which the host blithely referred to the heartland as "real America."



If that is what you really believe - that people in cities or suburbs, that minorities, that gays, that blacks and Hispanics are not part of "real America" - then of course, you are angry. You believe a fake America has taken over. You cannot understand this. So you start believing that we have a fascist/communist dictatorship, that there was some fraud allowing a non-citizen to become president, that the government is about to "take over" all healthcare provision ... and on and on. And no one is left in the GOP to challenge this, to calm it down, to present practical alternatives to the obvious crushing problems the country and the private sector have in paying for increasingly costly healthcare.



To me, this is a triumph of ideology. And conservatism is now an abstract anti-government ideology, fueled by cultural, racial and sexual resentment. This is a recipe for more violence, and more marginalization.

Esther - posted on 08/13/2009

This whole "debate" makes me foam at the mouth. As long as I'm OK, screw everyone else. Of course the "I'm OK" is a ridiculously short term vision as well because if you lose your job and you or your child happen to have a pre-existing condition, you too will be screwed. The utter lack of compassion from the right for anyone other than themselves continues to disgust me. Joy - As for your question if people are getting dumber or crazier , I'd say the answer would have to be both if you believe something as utterly ridiculous as a government run "death panel". Anyway, since I am foaming at the mouth over this, I'll just copy & paste something from my all time favorite CONSERVATIVE blogger, Andrew Sullivan (yes, I'm quoting him again - humor me). BTW he has always opposed universal health care, but since he's a reasonable, informed and intellectually honest person, he is coming around somewhat:



----------



"A Huge New Entitlement"



That's what Peggy Noonan calls Obama's healthcare proposals. Where is there an entitlement? There is an effort to subsidize private insurance for the working poor who now increase healthcare costs with emergency room care. The cost of all this is around $1 trillion over ten years and the struggle is finding ways to pay for it. The reason for the price-tag and its future is that healthcare costs keep sky-rocketing - something that is killing US companies as well who have to compete with international rivals who have to pay for no healthcare for their employees. Noonan makes no reference to this, as if the most pressing issue of future fiscal sanity is something we should put off ... because of fiscal conservatism. Excuse me? Now recall the Republicans' last major initiative on healthcare - the prescription drug benefit. That cost $32 trillion over the long run, and there was not even a gesture toward actually financing it. Much of the right was silent - as they were over all the other fiscally reckless policies of the past eight years.



But only now is Peggy "terrified".



She is not terrified by massively escalating healthcare costs, which are bankrupting the government and the private sector. She doesn't mention these once in her know-nothing column. She just channels the "feelings" of others and wants that to guide public policy. She does not mention the crises on many people's lives because of our current healthcare system. In fact, there is not a scintilla of a constructive proposal in the column - just an amorphous sense that anything that costs money shouldn't happen now:



The timing is wrong, we’ll turn to it again—but not now. We’ll take a little longer, ponder every aspect, and make clear every complication.



And we are not now? And we didn't debate this ad nauseam in the last campaign? What we have now is what we had in 1993: a radicalized base of a party that simply refuses to accept the legitimacy of another party in government. But then Clinton had only a plurality of the votes, not the commanding majority Obama won. This is genuine rage all right - amorphous, fear-driven rage. Maybe it is enough to kill any attempt to reform healthcare on any lines. And maybe it is just a raging at the dying of the conservative light.



-----------------



"Dying of the conservative light" - here's to hope!

Alison - posted on 08/13/2009

I wonder who is going to benefit from it. I bet only those who are on welfare or very low income. I bet that still leaves out most of the backbone of the country who pays for everthing and gets nothing in return. I'll be pretty ticked off myself if that ends up being the case. I'm all for reform, but I don't see how it is possible for the whole of America.

ME - posted on 08/12/2009

I think that the congressman "playing the race card" as you call it, got hate mail addressed to "Joe Nigga" (or something similarly disgusting)...I don't think he's "playing" anything...they showed the letter on CNN today...it made me want to cry...he'd gotten several like it. He also had a swastica painted on his office sign...as tho trying to help 40 million uninsured people (and even more underinsured) could be equated to what Hitler did...



You know...many of the uninsured people in our country HAVE jobs, but cannot get private insurance due to "pre-existing conditions", or have lost their private insurance because they've gotten a serious illness. Many people, such as myself, pay through the nose for our health insurance, only to have it not sufficiently cover serious treatments or conditions...60% (or some outrageous number) of bankruptcies in this country are due to medical bills...why does everyone on the right assume that this will only help the poor, indigent, jobless, and those already on public aid (not that they don't deserve help too)?

ME - posted on 08/12/2009

An independent fact check agency gave Sarah Palin the "Pants on Fire" award today...for lying her ass off...I almost laughed mine off...

Joy - posted on 08/12/2009

Traci can you link me some articles or something? I looked him up and it brought up mostly other chat boards about him....and his FB account lol

Joy - posted on 08/12/2009

What ticks me off is that so many people think that Obama's plan is A) funded by the government and provided for free (via "hard working tax payer's dollars") and that B) it's gonna kill Grandma & Grandpa (friggin Palin and her "Death Panel"). If anyone ever actually took time to either read the actual plan he wants to implement, or even if they turned on the news for 10 minutes, they'd have an actual understanding of what the plan is. It is paid for by the citizens. Like me, if his plan passes and I want insurance, I can either go to Blue Cross and get screwed or I can PAY for the government option. Either way, I still have to pay every month for coverage. As for killing Grandma & Grandpa, I really don't see where this came from, except that it was puked forth from Sarah Palin's mouth in an attempt to provoke fear.....word spread and that's exactlly the effect it had. It's why town hall meetings are just about turning into witch hunts. You know, if I went to a town hall meeting, even if I didn't agree with the speaker, I would give them the respect they deserve as a fellow HUMAN BEING and listen to them. Then I would ask a RELEVANT question and....AND....this is the important part.....I'd give them the chance to answer. These crazy idiots at the town hall meetings that we see on the news every night, they shout out a question and then don't give the representative a chance to answer. Ugh, I'm so glad I have Jon Steward for political comical relief. And I'm glad I have MSNBC as an option, so that I'm not stuck listening to the crazies rant and rave on FOX.

Sharon - posted on 08/12/2009

OMG my overly bored mother with a less than perfect understand of American English is driving me insane with her political views. She watches way to many of those political spouters on tv....

JL - posted on 08/12/2009

I am so over the lack of critical thinking and people's refusal to do a little research. I don't know if people are getting dumber or crazier but something has got to give because we just look like a nation of crazy overheated morons who would rather verbally attack one another in public forums and get into fist fights outside of town hall meetings. I mean these things are starting to look more like a bunch of drunk people at the bar and bar fights then town hall meetings and concerned citizens. I have had many people I know who are Republicans forward me these emails and I send them back directing them to first read the actual wording of the proposed bill and then to go to the fact checking sites so they can see the facts not the twisted maligned wording they are getting from groups run by Lobbyists and Republicans associated with Freedom Works which is getting funding from Pharameutical companies.