Heartbeat Law in Ohio

Nikki - posted on 02/10/2011 ( 93 moms have responded )

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Okay, I know that I am opening a HUGE can of worms with this one, but let's keep it as civil as possible.

A proposed bill, that is set to be introduced in the Ohio House of Representatives sometime next week by Rep. Lynn Wachtmann, would make abortion illegal after the detection of a fetal heartbeat. Since a heartbeat can be detected as early as 18 days aftter conception, this law esentially outlaws abortion in the state of Ohio.

So, what are your thoughts on this, Is it unconstitutional? Does it interfere with women's rights? Or does it protect unborn children? How about the gravity that it places on getting pregnant on accident in the first place?

Will this increase birth control awareness? or place more children in the care of the state?

Just honest and open debate. Below is the web address on Fox News article covering this story.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/...

MOST HELPFUL POSTS

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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I think it's extremely alarming that they make absolutely NO exception for rape, incest, or fetal abnormality. The only exception it seems to make is in the case of "extreme emergency situation" (i.e. the mother is in imminent danger of dying from the pregnancy).

Good to know that if some little girl gets raped and gets pregnant from it, that Ohio will force her to carry the baby. Good to know that if a woman finds out that her fetus is anencephalic and will die as soon as it's born, she still has to carry that pregnancy to term and go through labour.

Good to know that Ohio is viewing children as a fitting life-sentence punishment for those promiscuous sluts who get themselves pregnant. (Because women who get pregnant inadvertently are always referred to as having gotten THEMSELVES pregnant -- you ever notice that?)

I think it's naive to believe that this will increase birth control awareness, because it's been shown time and time again that the heavily pro-life, only-teach abstinence states tend to have the highest rates of teen pregnancy. So a value for life does not seem to correlate to an increase in common sense when it comes to contraception.

Will this increase birth control awareness? No.

What this law will do is force desperate women to some very dangerous ends.

Do I LIKE abortion? Goodness no. It breaks my heart that it even exists. However, it breaks my heart even more to think of a desperate and scared woman or girl being forced by lawmakers (none of whom would likely vote to give her a dime to raise that baby) to carry a pregnancy against her will.

Mary - posted on 02/10/2011

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I don't think a child is a "penalty" for anything.



No, Nikki, you may not, but sadly, not all women forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term may agree with you. Some of them, when faced with sleep deprivation, financial hardships, and a crying, colicky infant may see that baby as just that - a punishment. It would be bad enough if all they did was fail to bond, but some of them will become abusive.



As for your statement that "most" cases of chromosomal anomalies spontaneously abort in the first trimester....well, there are a fair amount of them that don't. I'm sorry, but it should be the mother (or couple's) choice as to whether or not they are capable of continuing a pregnancy to it's natural duration if a child is severely deformed. You simply have no idea what a unique slice of hell continuing a pregnancy is when you know that your baby will not survive outside of you. To condemn someone to that simply because it offends your morals makes me question if you have any sense of compassion or empathy.

JuLeah - posted on 02/10/2011

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I think more women will die as they attempt the abortion with a coat hanger.
I think even more children will be born into neglect, poverty, abuse ...
I think even more children will be born drug affected
I think that if you believe abortion is murder, then it is still murder no matter how the woman conceived
I think FOX news is a waste of time and air
I think all who vote for this type of thing ought to be required to raise one of the children not wanted, but not aborted; put your money where your mouth is
I think that when people say abortion is okay if the woman was raped, we fall into blaming the woman for conceiving a child, and blame only the women, in the case of 'drunk at the bar' or 'condom broke'
I think if people are really really interested in stopping abortion, and I don't think people really really are, then they will focus on the kids already here and not wanted; they will focus on our poor schools, the lack of good food and safe housing, mentors and support for teens, enforcing laws around DV rape date rape and child abuse
I think if a person wants to change a law (and that person actually cares about Americans) then that person will propose a law that protects children and not parents in the cases of abuse and neglect
I think I could go on for pages
I think you all get my point
We lived through the 1950's - let's not go back

Sara - posted on 02/10/2011

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Here's the thing, Clara. No one will begrudge you YOUR opinion, you are certainly entitled to it. No one should ever be forced to do or believe in something that they don't want to. The problem with a lot of anti-abortion folks is that they think because it's something they are opposed to morally, then everyone should be opposed to it and it should be illegal. That's not fair. What if it were the law of the land that all couples could only have two children, and if you got pregnant with a third child you would be forced to abort it? Isn't that the same thing as making abortion illegal and forcing people to have children that they don't want?

I think that the problem is when one person's, or a group of people's, moral values infringe on the right's of others. You absolutely have the right to believe and live your life the way that you see fit. Other people should have that same opportunity whether it's something you agree with or not.

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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And I have a real issue with the idea that abortion has become so common it is considered a form of birth control.

So do I. I think that there's some real exaggerating on the part of the pro-life movement with regards to this. If you listen to their rhetoric, you would think that every abortion is sought by some stupid skanky teen who can't keep her legs closed and just wants to get her abortion over with so that she can go out partying that night.

Like Sara, I know a couple of women who have had them. They both struggled mightily with their decision, but felt that it was the right decision for them. In one case, the woman's fetus had anencephaly and no hope of surviving. She could have waited until a miscarriage happened (if it ever did), but with two other children and a history of depression, she knew that going through the interminable hell of waiting for her baby to die naturally would be an incredibly traumatic and unhealthy situation for her and her family. She was very sad about terminating the pregnancy, but knew that it was best to avoid dragging out the inevitable. The other woman I know who had an abortion was in an abusive relationship. She was trying to work up the courage to leave, and was terrified that if her boyfriend found out she was pregnant, she would never be able to fully escape him.

Like Sara said, abortions aren't cheap, and they're not that easy to obtain. So I think that the pro-life bugaboo about the "casual aborter" is simply our modern-day version of Reagan's "Welfare Queens" -- the overexaggeration of a tiny segment of a particular demographic, as a way of demonizing that entire demographic.

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[deleted account]

I missed so much. As i was readin posts were being deleyed. I'm kinda glad i missed it all by the sounds of it.
I am terribly upset that someone would find Jenn's post funny. It's sick to mark it as funny.

I am pro choice. Need i say more.

Mary - posted on 02/10/2011

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Oh. My. Fucking. God.

I am just sick at the thought that ANY individual with even an ounce of humanity can find anything even remotely "funny" about Potter's syndrome.

Jenn, on behalf of those too stupid and insensitive to know better, I apologize.

I have held a baby with Potter's syndrome in my arms for for over an hour until it finally was at peace. Her mother has held her for quite some time before then, but she was simply to distraught to continue. I had promised her that I would not let Annie die alone; I would be her arms and heart for her. It is one of the most difficult, and yet beautiful memories I carry with me.

Anyone who would judge a mother in that position simply does not know; there is no right or wrong way in this river of pain.

So Clara - I'm sorry, but you are coming across to me as heartless monster.

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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Yeah...you're REALLY not helping your case here, Clara. My guess is that your freshly baked 24-ban is about to come out of the oven.

And the reason Jenn gave all of that medical information was to counter the impression that you (and others) seemed to have that pro-choicers are only talking about Down Syndrome when we talk about fetal abnormality. Trust me, there is a WIDE range of horrific fetal abnormalities out there that make Down Syndrome look like nothing worse than a leg mole.

Erin - posted on 02/10/2011

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** Mod Alert **

I am locking this thread for review. It may be reopened after we have dealth with it.

Erin - DM Mod

Jenny - posted on 02/10/2011

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Well before this is locked I'll just throw in the law sucks, causes more back alley abortions, the government has no authority over my uterus and that's about it.

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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Clara, it's because the main gist of Jenn's post was about her child dying. Even if you didn't mean that the event was funny, it still just looked REALLY insensitive for you to have rated her post as such.

And the reason people are reacting so strongly to you is because you ARE being really quite rude. And in COM, it IS considered very rude to mark someone's post as "funny" when the post was obviously earnest.

So fine, you don't think Jenn's baby dying is funny. We get it. But that doesn't appear to change the fact that you have been very belligerent and rude, right from the get-go, resulting in the kind of treatment you've since been receiving.

If you don't believe me, look at the rest of the posts on this thread. There are a LOT of pro-lifers on this thread, and nobody's gotten upset with them. You may want to look at how they expressed themselves, and how you've been expressing yourself, and note the difference.

Stifler's - posted on 02/10/2011

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It protects unborn children. But also will make more problems for society in the process. I wish there weren't so many irresponsible people out there, but there are.

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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I will be back after I have consulted with the other mods.

That sounds...vaguely threatening, Erin.

;)

Erin - posted on 02/10/2011

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Umm yeah.. threats (veiled or not) are not tolerated. I will be back after I have consulted with the other mods.

Erin - DM Mod

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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Whoa, yeah -- this is getting BEYOND crazy. Everybody is absolutely entitled to their opinion about abortion. As we've all seen, there has been a pretty broad variety of opinion here on this thread.

And I can totally respect the stance of someone who would never personally choose abortion, but also would never want that right taken away from other people.

But to mark a post where someone talks about the death of their child as "funny"? That's really, really insensitive. And then threatening Teresa, who is like, the LEAST rude person in this community?

Yeah, someone needs to step away from the keyboard, take some deep breaths, and calm down.

Erin - posted on 02/10/2011

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WOAH WOAH WOAH!!!

** Mod Alert **

Calm down people or you're buying this thread a one-way trip to being locked and deleted.

Anyone receiving abusive PMs should keep them and forward them to COMs management.

Erin - DM Mod

[deleted account]

It's not simply the opinion that people are jumping on.....

No one's been rude to me. Disagreeing w/ me? Yes, but not rude. If you behave rudely, you'd better expect to get rudeness back. Golden Rule and all....

Bonnie - posted on 02/10/2011

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"I wouldn't abort a child just because the child has downs. Thats stupid."

Clara, that is not stupid, but that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, just as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

Krissy - posted on 02/10/2011

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I'm Christian.... so um.. I'm sure you can guess my stance.

While my heart goes out to the 11 year old raped by her nineteen year old cousin... I still believe that many more babies are being put to death than there are a handful of ones that end up pregnant because of rape. Rape is a horrible crime, and if we cracked down on the offenders harder, then maybe there'd be less incidences of such stuff...

I say keep the babies alive and kill the rapists... (ok, yes, as a Christian, this is harsh..... I admit)

Bonnie - posted on 02/10/2011

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I feel there should be an exception for those cases involving rape and incest, etc. Not only that, but there are many who don't know they are pregnant that early on in.

Nikkole - posted on 02/10/2011

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For me i could NEVER abort any child (fetus) me and my husband created, accident or not!

Joanna - posted on 02/10/2011

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Any state that will force me to do something with MY body that I don't want to, won't be my state anymore.

Why does something who can't even survive get rights but ours are taken away? Totally ridiculous. Our freedoms are slowly being taken away.

[deleted account]

And... wow. Looks like I missed a lot that got deleted here. Don't think I'm sorry I missed it though....

[deleted account]

I'm not pro-choice though. I don't think abortion should be an option for anyone...ever. Unless the baby is already dead... in which case it's not a 'real' abortion (though still called that medically). I'm just not a voter.

Sara - posted on 02/10/2011

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For the record, it's not appropriate to use the rating system for posts as a way to poke fun at or disparage someone's comments. Marking a post as "funny" that is not written in jest is not appropriate. Just FYI.

Moving on...

JuLeah - posted on 02/10/2011

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@ Teresa - one can be pro choice and oposed to abortion - that is okay. To say you are choice is not the same as pro abortion. You are simply saying you are pro "it's not my life but hers"

Rosie - posted on 02/10/2011

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in the united states i don't believe we do nikkole. you have to pay for your own, unless it is medically necessary.

Nikkole - posted on 02/10/2011

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Don't we as tax payers help fund for abortion? if so (which i think we do) i think they shouldn't make abortions illegal they just just make it to were he women must pay for there own unless medically necessary! I am 100% against abortion an i will NEVER understand why a women would want to kill there child but who am i to say you CAN NOT have one! I don't agree with this bill they should think of something better!

Lady Heather - posted on 02/10/2011

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Huuuuge step backward for women's rights. Freja's heartbeat was very visible on a piece of crap old ultrasound machine at 7 weeks. I think that's well within an appropriate time period for abortion.

I'm not a big fan of abortions. I wouldn't have one myself unless medically necessary and wish there never had to be another one again, but sometimes abortions are the option that makes the sense. And if there is no exception for rape victims or cases of medical necessity then this idea is even more whack than it was to start.

[deleted account]

I know that outlawing abortion wouldn't solve anything. I also know that it's not all warm and fuzzy, but I just can not ever think or say that abortion is an acceptable answer.

No one has to worry about me ever trying to take your rights away though. This and other things like it are one of the reasons I don't vote. I know it's not black and white to a ton of people, but it is black and white to me and I just don't have it in me to ever vote against my beliefs.

Sara - posted on 02/10/2011

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But legally you're talking about a person who is their own entity, that exists independent of another when you're talking about things that bind medical professionals. When you're talking about a fetus, it's not so black and white as to when life actually becomes life and when a child is considered viable...

Cyndel - posted on 02/10/2011

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As far as I know unless a patient has a living will that states otherwise, a medical professional is to do everything to keep an already beating heart beating! It always baffled me therefore that they would then abort an infant with no problem that already had a beating heart.
I thought of this a long time ago and wondered when someone would use it to try and fight abortions! I'm glad someone finally is.

~Jennifer - posted on 02/10/2011

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"Think of the baby"



...ok, lemme think.....



Bilateral Renal Agenesis:



"...Other anomalies of the classic Potter sequence infant include a parrot beak nose, redundant skin, and the most common characteristic of infants with BRA which is a skin fold of tissue extending from the medial canthus across the cheek. The ears are slightly low and pressed against the head making them appear large. The adrenal glands often appear as small oval discs pressed against the posterior abdomen due to the absence of upward renal pressure. The bladder is often small, nondistensible and may be filled with a minute amount of fluid. In males the vas deferens and seminal vesicles may be absent, while in females the uterus and upper vagina may be absent. Other abnormalities include anal atresia, absence of the rectum and sigmoid colon, esophageal and duodenal atresia, and a single umbilical artery. Presence of a diaphragmatic hernia is also common in these fetuses/infants. Additionally, the alveolar sacs of the lungs fail to properly develop as a result of the reduced volume of amniotic fluid. Labor is often induced between 22 and 36 weeks of gestation (however, some of these pregnancies may go to term) and unaborted infants typically survive for only a few minutes to a few hours. These infants will eventually expire as either a result of pulmonary hypoplasia or renal failure."





.......ever watch a newborn take 8 minutes to suffocate due to unexpanded lungs from lack of amniotic fluid because of undeveloped kidneys?

I have.

No amniotic fluid, no lung growth or expansion = no ability to breathe = life outside of the womb consists of 'trying to breathe until you die"



My gosh, yes....please think of the baby.



Where's Batnurse Mary when you need a good technical explanation?

;)

♥ ya, mary!

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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Exactly. Nobody is trying to say that all unwanted pregnancies (or pregnancies with major defects) SHOULD end in abortion.

If someone is raped and wants to keep the baby, good on them.

If someone's fetus is anencephalic and they want to let the baby die naturally, then I will support to the death their right to do what THEY feel is best.

And you know what? If I ever (fates forbid) get raped, I very well might choose to carry the pregnancy and keep the baby. I might not. I don't think it's one of those situations that you can truly say what you would do until you're actually IN that situation.

And that's why I could just never, EVER be comfortable with the idea of forcibly removing a woman's options in a situation like that.

April - posted on 02/10/2011

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i think babies with anacephaly would be an exception to the heart beat law because technically viability is NOT defined just as having a heart beat. Even though a fetus at 30, 40 weeks is VIABLE...a baby with anacephaly technically cannot survive outside the womb. I think that if they keep this law, it should be CLEAR on what viability means.

Age of Viability is the age that a fetus is considered able to survive outside the womb. If your heart starts beating at 7 weeks gestation...you are NOT viable. I cringe at the thought of stopping someone/something's heartbeart on purpose, but I think the cut off for having an abortion should be when a woman is a little farther along than 18 days.

Sara - posted on 02/10/2011

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I never said you feel that way, I was speaking in general about the anti-abortion movement. You also seemed to convey by the defensiveness in your previous posts that you expected to get attacked for your stance or for people to feel that you aren't entitled to your opinion. I was merely telling you that you were entitled to your opinion and expounding on that, sorry if I made it seem like I was directing that to you personally.

User - posted on 02/10/2011

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I never once said everyone should be opposed to it or that it should be illegal. Just because I agree that abortion is wrong doesn't mean I agree with everyone else who is anti-abortion that it should be the above said things. You shouldn't label people until you get to know them individually.



My opinion on how I feel still stands. I have my opinion as everyone else and it's none of my business what another woman does to her body. Am I telling her because of how I feel she can't do what she deems fit,no. That's all up to her. I was merely stating my opinion on the matter,not telling other women what they should do and shouldn't do with their own bodies Sara.

User - posted on 02/10/2011

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I still stand by what I said and I ALWAYS will. No one will ever change that Katherine. Just because what is medically deemed true still won't change my opinion or feelings on the matter.

Katherine - posted on 02/10/2011

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Do you define life as when the brain starts working? Or when the heart starts working? Well...let's look at how we define death. If the heart stops, we don't automatically pronounce that person dead, if there is still brain activity. However, it is possible to be "brain-dead" but still technically alive. So I think that in order for it to truly be considered a human life, you have to have a heartbeat AND brain activity.

Excellent point. Let me sit on that for a minute.

Isobel - posted on 02/10/2011

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I also think it's selfish to leave multiple LIVING children motherless because of an unborn fetus.

User - posted on 02/10/2011

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I'd have to be forced Kati and held down but since it's my body it's also my decision

Rosie - posted on 02/10/2011

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it's all an opinion of what is selfish. i think it's selfish to bring a child that will be in constant pain into this world. couldn't you love your child enough to let it pass in peace?

User - posted on 02/10/2011

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MY opinion abortion is murder. I would never do it no matter what my situation nor if the baby would be born with down syndrome or anything else etc. And if I didn't want the baby I wouldnt be getting an abortion,if it was rape etc(as horrible as it is) I would be giving the baby up to a family who would love the child no matter what. You shouldn't punish the child because of the "situation" YOU were in. That's not very fair to the child and to say the child isnt considered a human being until its outside of the womb is cruel.



God made life and every human baby is perfect in his eyes.



It's none of my business what another woman does to her body but it is definetly not for me. A child is a gift and a precious gift at that.



I knew someone who has gotten abortions before and she now can't have kids. Her and her hubby have tried for 5 years to get pregnant and nothing has helped.



I could never become selfish and have a abortion. Of course no one is selfless in this world anymore and they usually think of themselves. Think of the baby.



I'm not going to be sorry if my opinion offended you because thats my opinion. And I don't care if anyone else agrees with me,because this is once again my opinion on the matter.



Have a nice day ladies! :)

Krista - posted on 02/10/2011

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You simply have no idea what a unique slice of hell continuing a pregnancy is when you know that your baby will not survive outside of you. To condemn someone to that simply because it offends your morals makes me question if you have any sense of compassion or empathy.

THANK you, Mary. You said exactly what I wanted to say, but much more eloquently.

I have a pretty fertile imagination, but it completely fails me when I try to imagine how incredibly HELLISH it would be to know that your baby is doomed, and to have to walk around with this big pregnant belly, enduring all of these well-wishes and congratulations from unwitting acquaintances and strangers. Do you tell them? Do you just thank them, fake a smile, and die a little more inside? What about your friends and relatives? Do you let them know or not? I can't help but think that it would be incredibly traumatizing and incredibly lonely. Not that terminating the pregnancy wouldn't be tragic, but at least then it would be OVER, and you could begin the healing process.

Rosie - posted on 02/10/2011

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it's ridiculous that other people should have ANYTHING to do with MY body. a fetus cannot survive without its mother plain and simple, it is not afunctioning human being, until that time (which is considered to be 24 weeks medically speaking) i see no reason to give the same rights as a living breathing human being.

this would be stupid. first women would be getting abortions somewhere else-legally or not. it does nothing to solve the problem.

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