How do you feel about today's "social norms"?

Shannon - posted on 09/11/2010

I don't really give a damn what the "norm" is, I'll do what I please....... I have my babies with NO pain medication & because I use midwives, I always get to hold my baby right away. I breast feed for as long as I can take it (about 9 months). Schedules don't usually happen for me until the baby is about 6 months old. I never leave an infant to "cry it out". Not until they are about 8 months old anyway, And I DO use pacifiers..

Chatty - posted on 09/08/2010

I miss breastfeeding Roxanne :(

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

My daughter is pretty much like clockwork. She feeds every 3 hours within 10mins. Gets sleepy about an hour and a half after walking. Goes to sleep for the night around 7 or 730. Wakes up at around 7 or 730. She's textbook. I never influenced her routine, i kept track of it. Makes it easier to plan outings. When she's hitting a growth spurt I know it b/c she rarely veers off her routine.

Good Day! - posted on 09/08/2010

Kate, it was a combination of that and baby showing signs of hunger for me. I know what you mean!

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

I realized my numbers were wrong in my post about breastfeeding laws in certain states... i realize my numbers only add up to 51 :)

Kate CP - posted on 09/08/2010

I went on my boobs' schedule. When my boobs felt hard I knew the baby would be hungry soon so I would feed her. Worked well for us, I think. :)

C. - posted on 09/08/2010

Jennifer, I formula-fed exclusively from the time my son was 2 weeks old.. They ENCOURAGED on demand feeding, even with formula.

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

Yes for BF they recommend you feed on demand. Not sure about formula feeding. I still follow a "routine" however. But it's baby-led and not by the clock. If my daughter is hungry, or "i think" she's hungry i feed her. It's important to feed on demand when you BF because of growth spurts. FOD increases your milk supply for growth spurts.
blah... im sure we all know that though. :p

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

@Kate- I think it's horrible that there are still 6 states that don't protect a mother's right to feed her child in public. I was looking into it myself, Virgina has the least amount of laws protecting the right to BF. I believe it's only allowed on private property or some BS. In the other 5 the laws are worded in a way that restaurants and other business can ask the woman to leave under laws of tresspassing.

Stifler's - posted on 09/08/2010

Yeah I was never encouraged by a doctor to use a feeding schedule either.

C. - posted on 09/08/2010

First of all, Melissa, I don't know where in the US you are, but I have NEVER heard of a woman NOT being able to hold her baby before it had been washed..



Second, if a woman doesn't think they can handle the pain, then they can get an epidural. It's really none of your business (and for the record before you tell me I'm just mad that I couldn't do it- just foreseeing the worst- I went W/O an epidural and pushed out a 9lb 2oz baby).



Third, not all moms that choose formula make that decision lightly. Some moms CAN'T breastfeed, some don't make enough- so they supplement with formula, some are too busy trying to provide for their little one that they don't have enough time in the day to stop and pump every time they're engorged.. And yes, the few (compared to the rest) that just don't want 'sagging boobs' b/c they are too vain.. But still, that should not be of any concern to you.



I do agree about the schedule thing- kind of, but every doctor I had been to actually encouraged ODF (on demand feeding).



If a mom chooses to give her baby a pacifier, what's it to you? It's really not that hazardous.



Most of those who use CIO, generally have a 5-15 minute LIMIT (depending on age and severity as long as the baby does not show signs of distress) for their child to cry by themselves. The correct way to start CIO is to wait until they are older than 6 months old.



(**I actually had this written out since 1p my time, it is now 5p.. The power went out, so I couldn't post it- so I'm sorry if some of these things have already been addressed.**)

Jaime - posted on 09/08/2010

I completely agree about changing a shitty diaper at the table being rude and disgusting among the various sanitary issues. I meant my story as an example of something that is HIGHLY inappropriate when it comes to the care of children in public, because I feel like BF'ing gets put in that category (when people insist that mothers leave or go to the washroom) and it should never be in that same category--EVER! And if a restaurant doesn't have proper hygiene amenities for changing diapers, then I would go out to the car before I would change my baby at the table...but I would never, ever excuse myself from a restaurant to breast feed and I will defend any BF'ing mother that is treated in such a poor, distasteful and discriminatory manner.

Good Day! - posted on 09/08/2010

If there's no place available to change my daughter, I'll change her in the car. A few times I've found a private bench and changed her in her stroller (the zoo, outside mall). That's not something total strangers should be subjected to.

Kate CP - posted on 09/08/2010

Many states have laws protecting a woman's right to breast feed any where (44 of them to be exact). And here's the list:



http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=1...



:)

Charlie - posted on 09/08/2010

oh i was agreeing with her in a roundabout way LOL i just added that it wasnt the same in case anyone was going to compare it , i guess i jumped the gun on that one .

Chatty - posted on 09/08/2010

I don't think Jaime was comparing them, Loureen. But then again, I don't know for sure and I probably shouldn't speak for her so I'ma shut my mouth...lmao.

Charlie - posted on 09/08/2010

Changing a shitty nappy on a table where people eat is rude and disgusting and is in no WAY comparable to a mother breastfeeding .

Stifler's - posted on 09/08/2010

I've been to a hell of of a lot of places with no mothers room. Subway for instance, and the CBD of Brisbane.

Jaime - posted on 09/08/2010

Every restaurant that I've ever been in is equipped with the proper amenities for changing a baby. Changing a diaper at the dinner table in a restaurant is a health issue and if the health inspector had been in, we would have been cited for it. Health codes are strict in NA and our restaurant was visited a lot and very randomly by the health board.

Stifler's - posted on 09/08/2010

What do you do if the place has no mother's room? My SIL is hilarious and changes my son anywhere and everywhere.

Jaime - posted on 09/08/2010

I worked in a restaurant when I was pregnant with Gray and a woman was dining in with her family. She proceeded to change her infant's shitty diaper right at the table, amongst other eaters. NOT COOL. That is something I would consider inappropriate and had I been aware of her activities at the time (I was told after she left) I would have politely escorted her to the washrooms that were equipped with a change table and the proper hygiene amenities.

Stifler's - posted on 09/08/2010

People are so immature about breastfeeding in public yet they will buy porno mags and talk about sex in public. When will they realise their hypocrisy.

Charlie - posted on 09/08/2010

Its illegal in Australia to refuse service for breastfeeding !

A lot of places are now putting large stickers on their cafe windows saying BF welcome here .

Tara - posted on 09/08/2010

In Canada is it illegal to refuse service to someone because they are breastfeeding. It is illegal to ask someone to leave a store/restaurant etc. because you are breastfeeding.
It is also illegal to deny a nursing mother the right to carry her own container of water anywhere she chooses including place like the Air Canada Center where normally there are "NO" outside food or beverages allowed.
We can nurse pretty much wherever we choose here in Canada. I saw a woman on stand at a criminal trial nursing a 4 day old baby. Discreetly yes, but still doing it cause she needed to feed her child and knew that no one could stop her.

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

@Sara oops i misunderstood your post. You meant it's illegal to refuse a woman's rights to breastfeed in public. Sorry bout that! :)

Johnny - posted on 09/08/2010

And that, Laura, would be what "family values" is all about!

Isobel - posted on 09/08/2010

Go Canada is right...we also get a year off work with guaranteed job security :) (at 55% of our gross pay which is also often topped up by the company through a benefits package)

Jaime - posted on 09/08/2010

If I saw someone tell a BF'ing mother to cover up, or go elsewhere, I'd first tear them a new asshole and then direct them to where they can go and give them a map to shove up their ass when they get there!

Johnny - posted on 09/08/2010

I've nursed all over the place and where I live, I see moms nursing all over the place. There has been a couple of cases where people tried to send them elsewhere or kick them off a bus or something, but that is not allowed here. Like Jennifer just posted, the right to breastfeed anywhere at anytime is protected by law in Canada. Although it is also legal to go topless, I've never seen anyone do it aside from at the beach. But here in Vancouver, I see lots of women breastfeeding publicly.

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

Yup just looked it up the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects our right to breastfeed anywhere and anytime.
"You have rights as a nursing mother. For example, you have the right to breastfeed a child in a public area. No one should prevent you from nursing your child simply because you are in a public area. They should not ask you to “cover up”, disturb you, or ask you to move to another area that is more “discreet”."
Go Canada!

Michelle - posted on 09/08/2010

I am not a BF advocate so I don't know the laws however most business still have the right to refuse service to anyone, which could be why many women are kicked out of business while BFing. If you are walking around walmart and someone complains about you BFing, management usually has the right to ask you to leave because someone complained. I don't agree with it, but I believe that is why some businesses kick women out for BFing. I could be wrong.

Good Day! - posted on 09/08/2010

No, I'm saying, it's illegal to kick someone out of Wal-Mart for nursing. The nursing itself is perfectly legal.

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

If that's the case and the only places in public we're allowed to nurse is parks, beaches and street benches... what's the point?

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

In commercial buildings? What about doctor's offices? See that's kind of my point. It shouldn't be illegal in ANY place.

Good Day! - posted on 09/08/2010

Oh things like that happen all the time. THAT is illegal. That's why nursing moms should know the law.

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

I had heard about someone being kicked out of walmart for BF. I wasn't sure if laws existed outside my country.

Teresa - posted on 09/08/2010

Jennifer, the most public nursing I ever did of my twins was in the car... it was just easier on all of us.

I was nervous about feeding my son in public, but as a single mom of 3 who didn't pump at all... I didn't have a choice. I got over my nervousness really fast and in the 2 years I fed him in public... no one ever said a word about it... or if they did I never heard them. ;) I don't know of any place where it is illegal to feed in public, but then I am only slightly familiar w/ US laws..

Good Day! - posted on 09/08/2010

Where is it illegal to breastfeed in public? I'm curious, because from what I know it's legal everywhere.

Jenni - posted on 09/08/2010

Speaking of BF how many of you leave in an area where you can't BF in public. Where i live going topless is legal. But i have only witness one woman BF in public at my OBGYNs. Before that i would never consider BF in public I always bring EBM. Seeing her BF made me feel a little more confident about public BF. I would if i had to do it in public but i still prepare for outings with EBM. I wish public BF was more acceptable than it is. It's funny but i bet if men were the ones who did the BF they would have no hang ups about whipping a breast out in public. There probably wouldn't be any laws against it either. It's so irritating that we live in a society where we are still so fearful of women's sexuality that we can't allow them to BF their babies anywhere they please.

LaCi - posted on 09/08/2010

I'm not sure where you are, but I had a c-section and was still able to hold my child after he was extracted. No pacifier was ever shoved in his mouth. Breastfeeding was highly encouraged. Oh, and no one ever told me to get my son on a schedule. I fed him whenever he was hungry. So I don't think this thing you are speaking of is an "American" thing, as no one I've known has experienced any pressure of that nature.

Good Day! - posted on 09/08/2010

Haha, Emma I agree with you. I'm a cheapskate. But my husband is a nurse and insists on natural and healthy. I agree with that, but I admit my main reason for wanting to do it was the cost...free! I think I was so successful for a year because I had so much support with it. My husband backed me up anytime someone even thought the word "formula". My mom had breastfed (as most my my family did, a lot of husband's family did not) and she was a huge help to me during the entire process. So, women helping women and their partners supporting them. That's what needs to happen, with any decision that is made, formula/breast, natural/epi, etc.

Plus, I agree with Mary that going back to work so soon plays a huge factor in people not being able to BF. How much healthier would our society be if moms were given the option to stay home a year with job security?

Every mom I know, with the exception of 2, have wanted to breastfeed. But only about about half made it their breastfeeding goal (1 year, six months, or whatever it was).

Stifler's - posted on 09/08/2010

I just wanted to breastfeed because it was free, and always the right temperature and you don't have to guess how much milk they want or waste any left over. Formula feeding really really sucks IMHO, I never wanted to do it, ever.

Petra - posted on 09/08/2010

@ Katie - I know that CIO is technically not supposed to last for hours, but I have yet to meet (in person) a mom who uses the method that way. Nonetheless, having it shoved down my throat in the manner it has been has really bothered me... CIO used in the fashion you described is definitely more conservative than the unsolicited advice I've been given.

With respect to the breast feeding/sexualization of the breast issue: I fully intended to breast feed and just see how it went. Now, 9 months later, I am still bf'ing and intend to wean my little guy over the next two months before I go back to work. I have, however, asked my partner to lay off the boobs during sex because I have a hard time reconciling my boobs as fun and as nurturing milk-delivery devices. Once the little dude is off the milk, my boobs can just be fun again.

I think the major reason to bf - aside from the quick convenience, skin to skin contact & bonding aspect - is that your baby will ingest a lot of antibodies from your milk. They can mimic a lot of things with formula, but not this.

Mary - posted on 09/08/2010

Fiona, I see the point you are trying to make. Yes, for a significant part of the 20th century, formula feeding was the "norm"...but it was because it really was believed to be nutritionally superior. Now, initially, it was only the upper classes that could afford to make that "choice"...but that is true of MANY things in life. As the belief that formula was 'better' became more entrenched, it also became more widely available to all classes.

Slowly that belief began to be questioned, and then eventually disproved. Unfortunately, this occurred in conjunction with another societal shift...women remaining in the work force after child birth. I think this, much more than any sexual hang-ups about breasts, has influenced women to give up on breastfeeding.

From what I see on a regular basis, the vast majority of woman really have every intention of breastfeeding with their firstborn. Most of them do while still in the hospital. And then they go home...and the reality of just how hard it can be in those first few weeks hits them. They are hormonal, and sleep deprived, and often feeling desperate. They begin to wonder just how worth it this is, considering that they will be returning to work in 6,8 or 12 weeks, and will most likely be switching to formula anyway.

Most of my friends, who are all college-educated professionals, did start out breastfeeding. None of them continued once they returned to work. Some tried pumping, but found it prohibitively hard, and gave up within a few weeks. Some just never even considered it. As someone who did pump from 14 weeks through 13 months, I have to say, it was, at times, damned hard and rather unpleasant...and I work with a group of woman who are very supportive of breastfeeding.

If your looking at this from the perspective of WHICH societal influences most impact breastfeeding negatively, I honestly believe that woman returning to work within 3 months of birth is a much bigger factor than the sexualization of the female breast.

Michelle - posted on 09/08/2010

The social norm within my group of family and friends is to breast feed. My sister did, both cousins did, best friend did, ect.... I however have no desire to breastfeed. I didn't with my first, didn't even try and I have no intention on trying with my second. It is not about convenience as I am a SAHM. It doesn't appeal to me. And the idea that so many women out there feel like the OP regarding breastfeeding irriates me.

What difference does it make it I BF or not. As long as my child is fed, taken care of, and showered with love who really gives a rats ass.

Who really cares if I stick a pacifier in my daughters mouth as long as I play with her and love on her.

IF the worst thing I am doing to my child is formula feeding, sticking a pacifier in her mouth, or getting an epidural during labor, I should be GET KUDOS.... I am not beating her, starving her, forcing her into prostitution, doing drugs around her or while I am pregnant, tying her to a bed and forcing drugs down her throat, ect........

IF we want to talk about social norm.. I guess it safe to say that teen pregnancy and obesity are social norms too....

Stifler's - posted on 09/07/2010

I planned to try breastfeeding for at least 12 weeks before I gave up if it wasn't working out. But I had so many lectures from people about how formula is just as good and very little encouragement to continue trying to breastfeed. It was pathetic. It's the norm in my peer group. Nobody I know that is my age except 2 people have breastfed longer than 6 weeks. A few people I know didn't even try to breastfeed at all and didn't want to.

Fiona - posted on 09/07/2010

Fair point Sara.

So if breastfeeding rates are on the rise does that mean that formula feeding was once a social norm now becoming outdated (seeing as it has taken some pretty substantial health advocacy and education strategies to increase breastfeeding rates)? That as a social norm it has been around for a long time (especially as certain generations in certain cultures once viewed formula feeding as a class and status symbol -ie: formula was once seen as superior to breastmilk and if you were wealthy and educated enough you gave your child formula, only the poor breastfed.) and is only now being reinstated as an option for feeding your child, just one of many choices parents have rather than one tied to societal expectations.

Or that formula has always just been an option for feeding your child and the popularity of that choice has just swung during different times depending on the information available. Do societal influences play a part at all in the popularity of those choices even if they don't necessarily make it a "norm".

Or none of the above? I don't mean to turn this into a formula debate but I am so taken by the fact that so far this is the first time I have ever been able to actually DEBATE the topic without it turning defensive and personal. I know that feeding your child is such a personal and intimate part of parenting that many people place a high emotional stake in the topic, but it should be able to be debated in such a manner so long as everyone remains respectful.

Good Day! - posted on 09/07/2010

I don't see how the social norm is becoming formula when breastfeeding rates have actually been on the rise the past few decades.

Fiona - posted on 09/07/2010

Sure, Jamie-Leigh maybe not social norms as such but I do see the increasing trend of women choosing formula for reasons such as I mentioned as possibly contributing to formula feeding becoming a social norm. I do think however that there has been an equivalent response by breastfeeding advocates that will probably serve to keep feeding choices just that, choices rather than social norms. Because I have seen how this issue quickly gets people on the defensive, I will state again that while I am pro-breastfeeding I am in no way anti-formula so I am not being negative about mothers who formula feed.

As for the 'getting turned on by breastfeeding', as others have explained it is natural and many mothers experience something similar. The same hormone responsible for milk ejection (the let-down reflex), oxytocin; is also produced by nipple stimulation and intimacy. This hormone is also responsible for causing uterine contractions (such as in labour, orgasm or post-partum), which is why nipple stimulation (as well as sex, although there are also other reasons for that) is often recommended to bring on labour and why breastfeeding aids in contracting the uterus back down after childbirth. The production of oxytocin (also colloquially called the 'love hormone') is also involved in intimacy and love making and is partially responsible for the loved-up glow of post-coital couples as well as new mothers.

I always found it amazing that my mind and body interpreted the coursing of a hormone in my system differently depending on the circumstance. When my nipples were stimulated by my baby breastfeeding it aroused a sense of absolute love, fierce devotion and nurturing; when my nipples were stimulated by my partner it aroused a sense of absolute love and sexual desire (or irritation depending on the situation). My brain was able to differentiate between these sensations and their causes and respond appropriately. No two women's minds work the same however, so it does not surprise me when other women respond differently.

Good Day! - posted on 09/07/2010

Yeah, I'd probably get creeped out if my baby turned me on when breastfeeding. That's not society's fault.