How do you feel about today's "social norms"?

Jodi - posted on 09/06/2010

Nikki, they had no choice with Taylah. Her blood sugar and temp were actually dangerously low. She was only 5lb 2 oz and my placenta was so tiny, they believe that there were perhaps some issues with it for quite some time, and they had to tube feed her immediately. Then they struggled to get her temp up, so that was it. I remember sitting outside the hospital in the garden at 6 in the morning crying my eyes out on the phone to my husband because they still wouldn't let me hold her........



I actually totally understand why they didn't in that first 24 hours, but I swear, after that, once she stabilised, I still don't understand why they couldn't have allowed me to have her with me in my room. I was only 2 doors away from the SCN, so I could take her back for a check up each feed time. I went in every 4 hours to brestfeed her anyway (or at least to give them the breastmilk I pumped).....

Jessica - posted on 09/06/2010

When Josh was born, he had to be revived due to complications. When he was handed to me I tried to put him under my nightie to get skin to skin contact and was told by my midwife not to do it as it wasn't necessary. I severely regret listening to her. I held him for about 5 mins before his dad took him so I could birth the placenta. I lost so much blood that I was too weak to hold my son for the next 8 hours. I was practically forced into the shower and fainted because of the blood loss and heat. The midwife told me that if I didn't shower so they could change the bed then they would have to call a family member to come and look after Josh as I would be deemed not well enough to look after him. I was in the hospital for 6 days and one of the nurses on the ward accused Joshes dad of 'messing' with him whilst he was changing his nappy and I was watching. If I have another child, it will be a home birth. What I have said here isn't even half of my experience and I no longer hold enough trust in the people who work in the hospital to go there again. I believe the information provided for new and expectant mothers is mostly correct. I just don't think the people who should be applying it are doing it. From my personal experience they are giving their opinions more weight than scientific discoveries and fact.

Charlie - posted on 09/06/2010

Really Nikki , My midwives encouraged us to sleep with my baby in my bed , isnt it interesting the differences in hospitals .

Nikki - posted on 09/06/2010

That's really sad Jodi :( My midwife, luckily was really good, even though Isobel's temp and blood pressure were down she let me continue skin to skin and she was back to normal temp and blood pressure within an hour. The nurses on the ward were another story!! One of them yelled at me because Isobel slept with me and not in the cot!

Jodi - posted on 09/06/2010

When I had Jayden, they gave him straight to me and allowed me skin to skin contact and put his straight to the breast before they did anything, and that was 13 years ago :) When I had Taylah, they did give her straight to me and I held her while they delivered the placenta, but as soon as they checked the placenta, they took her straight from me, checked her and whisked her straight off to the SCN. It turns out her blood sugar was poor and her temperature was an issue, so I didn't get to hold her again until the next day, and I didn't have her in the room with me until the night before I took her home 10 days later :( I missed that contact, it was actually incredibly depressing. I honestly believe if they had allowed me more contact with her, she probably would have been able to come home sooner, and I wouldn't have developed PND.

Erin - posted on 09/05/2010

I've seen that video before, and that's pretty much exactly what Milla did. The only time Milla was apart from me while in hospital was when I was having my blood transfusion. The midwives were fantastic and kept her at the desk with them (we don't have a nursery as all babies 'room-in' unless they're in NICU or SCN) and would bring her back to feed.

Johnny - posted on 09/05/2010

I believe that it is now increasingly popular, at least in Canadian, Australian, and British hospitals to follow the UN WHO Baby-Friendly Initiative that encourages this constant skin-to-skin contact where possible to encourage a successful breastfeeding relationship:

http://www.babyfriendly.org.uk/page.asp?...

Many hospitals doing this are also encouraging the 'breast crawl' because it is also believed to lead to greater success in infants developing a successful latch:

http://breastcrawl.org/video.shtml

Charlie - posted on 09/05/2010

I never had a plan either , both hospitals were fantastic with letting us bond through skin to skin , breastfeeding and encouraging co sleeping in hopsital ( canberra and royal womens Randwick )

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

I held mine for about 4 seconds covered in blood then they took him away and I attempted to breastfeed him about 3 hours later. It wasn't even an option in the birth plan to be handed the baby immediately or anything like that.

Johnny - posted on 09/05/2010

Same with me Erin. The norm here is to place the baby on the mother immediately and not cleanse or weigh etc. My daughter was on me for the first five minutes, and latched on. They had to remove her because she pooped all over me and we both had to be cleaned from that of course. While they cleaned us, they weighed & measured her and she was returned very quickly. We were kept together from then on, skin to skin, until she was bundled up to leave the hospital. The hospital policy is that unless it is a medical emergency, the baby should not be taken from the mother. They even wait a day until the first sponge bath.

Erin - posted on 09/05/2010

Loureen I was handed Milla immediatelly as well, and she latched herself on within about 2 mins!! It seems like that's not routine in other places though. Personally, I can't imagine pushing a baby out and then being told I couldn't hold them until someone else said so!

Elisabeth - posted on 09/05/2010

Just out of curiousity though, not meaning to come off as rude or anything but I wondering how many children you've had and how old? Not that anybody, no matter how many children they've had, nobody knows everything. But just wondering how many experiances you've had. For example, I breastfed my two however with my second I could only do it for 3 months as she was intolerant to something in my breastmilk. For 3 months she had trouble eating which meant she would suck on my breast for an hour, but would have to wake up every hour. It caused her stomach pains which meant she had long crying periods. I stopped after 3 months once the Docs finally figured out what was wrong. But some people might argue I did it for my convience because I got to sleep for longer then an hour or 30 min at a time. What are your thoughts about this particular experiance? Just out of curiousity.

Elisabeth - posted on 09/05/2010

8-) Just making light...anyway I forget to say in my first post that just because some people choose to use formula or choose pain relief or pacifer or whatever, doesn't mean they are doing something wrong. The way I did things is the way I beleived was the best for me and my baby, I did research and so on, I recommend to friends to do it this way, because it worked so well for me, but that doesn't mean I'm against anything as long as it's right for the baby ect. And as for 'normal', that's a pretty broad word to use, some people might think using the cry method as normal some might not...some people think having an ephidural is normal, others not...hard to define. Where I am, breastfeeding is the norm, not formula, this may be differant in other places.

Jodi - posted on 09/05/2010

Oh, we knew you were back, we've known for ages.

Charlie - posted on 09/05/2010

I know , not disappointed , fairly indifferent really , just making an observation *whistles dixi *

Elisabeth - posted on 09/05/2010

I've been on for a while now, sorry to disappoint...

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

I don't get the link between early solids and obesity or care really, I just didn't want to feed my kid solids at 6 weeks like people were suggesting. I didn't want to formula feed him either or give him a dummy.

Charlie - posted on 09/05/2010

You're back Elisabeth ........

Elisabeth - posted on 09/05/2010

Haha I always get the 'your crazy' when I tell someone I didn't have pain relief. Most people say they order an ephidural as soon as they went into labor, they didn't even bother trying to see if they could do it, thats sad. But I did get to hold my babies on bare cheast as soon as they were born. I'm a bit shocked that some hospitals still don't allow that in a developed country. That should be the norm not whisked away straight away. And I'm pretty 'old-fashioned' when it comes to infant care. I don't like to leave them to cry or have them on a schedule or pacifier and so on. It should be a natural process when it comes to taking care of your newborn, this includes feeding bub when hungry not when convienant or scheduled.

Charlie - posted on 09/05/2010

By the way both my babies were placed on my chest covered in blood and vernix and breastfed before ANYTHING was done even my fiance had skin to skin for about an hour after birth just the way i liked it !

Jaime - posted on 09/05/2010

But being annoyed because your asshole friends and family keep pressuring you to do shit or give shit to your kid does not mean that they are part of social norms Emma. If you're pissy because you don't want people telling you how to raise your kid then tell them to fuck their hats and be done with it. Parenting is a whole mess of unknowns for the inexperienced, so they often go with popular opinion or what they've seen someone do...some people just don't have a clue.

Chatty - posted on 09/05/2010

I agree with most of you ladies, the things we're talking about are parenting techniques or choices we make; they're NOT "social norms". For every person who says they gave their children a pacifier, you'll be able to find another that says they didn't.

Teresa - posted on 09/05/2010

Emma, I was never given any of that advice. I am the one that came to the nurses in the hospital after my girls were born and asked for a pacifier. I had a baby that wanted to suck for a minute, sleep for an hour, suck for minute, sleep for an hour, etc... I KNOW that is good and normal, but w/ recovering from an extremely difficult pregnancy, semi-emergency c-section, screwed up iron levels, learning to breastfeed, AND care for newborn twins.... I couldn't physically BE a pacifier for my babies.



Since it worked so well for them... that is why I tried it w/ my son. He took the binky ONCE in the hospital and wouldn't have anything to do w/ it after that. So... I was (and still kind of am) his pacifier....



I didn't read much after that post from Emma cuz I wanted to answer her that not everyone is given that type of advice, so I don't have anything else to add to anyone else's comments. ;)

Fiona - posted on 09/05/2010

@Jennifer: re the question about pacifiers being detrimental, I can only assume that the OP meant in terms of immediate use after birth. For some infants (eg premature babies) pacifier use soon after birth can be helpful in establishing sucking reflexes but, for the majority of healthy, full-term, vaginal birth infants whose mothers plan to breastfeed the introduction of a pacifier or bottle (any artificial nipple) too soon can lead to nipple confusion and breast refusal making establishing breastfeeding more difficult. Offhand, I think the recommended time to wait before introducing pacifier or bottle is 6-8 weeks for breastfed infants. That is the only 'detrimental' aspect I can think to apply to it. That and some two part pacifiers and older and cheaper plastic manufactured brands are known to be hazardous due to the risk of part separation being a choking hazard and the poor quality ingredients used in manufacture, however with more stringent quality control, safety standards and product recall procedures this is becoming less of an issue.

Kate CP - posted on 09/05/2010

Okay, I'm actually very pro-natural child birth and I, myself, didn't have an epidural. I don't ever want one, personally. Now, that isn't to say that I think all women should birth this way. However, there are risks and benefits to everything including the epidural. The epidural, while it may reduce the risk of muscle tears and does (in most cases) greatly reduce/eliminate pain during child birth also has several risks associated with it. Many women have chronic back pain, headaches, and numbness from the epidural. Some women (a VERY small amount) have had adverse reactions to the epidural like problems breathing, sudden nausea and vomiting, dizziness, and even loss of consciousness. So, while the epidural may have benefits, it can also have consequences. It's one of those things each woman must weigh carefully and decide for them self if it's something they want or need during birth.

Michelle - posted on 09/05/2010

I read this last night and since it fits the "social norm" please visit http://www.glamour.com/health-fitness/bl...

so I guess if DOCTORS tell us that having an epidural is better for our bodies than going without we should GO without because you say so.....



Also I was one of those early solid feeders.. At the advice of...... wait for it..... My daughter's pediatrician. So I guess I should have told him that I didn't care about her reflux, I would rather her little body be pumped full of medicine than try doing something a lot more natural. OH and guess what.. My daughter is almost 5 and has NO symptoms of obesity, but I will be sure to remind her to blame me for it if she decides to be a fat cow..... Because unless there is a medical reason for someone to have weight issues, it is a choice. They choose to eat the wrong things or too much of anything. They choose to feed our children junk food.



Edit***



I also have never and will never breastfeed. I have tried to in vision my child there feeding and then my husband there for recreational purposes and it disgusts me.... SO as far as I am concerned it is a recreational area only. Guess that makes me a horrible mom, someone please call DCF I don't deserve my children.

Jenni - posted on 09/05/2010

@Jodi A. that is so true, i think the research i've done myself has been so helpful at making me confident in my own parenting skills. When my MIL asks me why i'm not giving my 4 month old solids yet or why i'm not giving her water to get her through the night (b/c of my own research) i dont start think... hmmm maybe she's right? I don't have to be influenced by others opinions b/c i've educated myself on the subject. I make my decisions when it comes to parenting on studies, research, education, what works for my family and my children as individuals.

@Mellissa, sorry but i just can't get over that you said having pain medications during child birth makes you less of a mom. I have a 3 year old SD, 2 year old son and 4 month old daughter. When you've scrubbed poo outta your carpet 5 days out of the week, gone 5 hours holding a collicky infant in your arms, played mediator to endless sibling disputes, been kicked in the stomach while 8 months pregnant by an 18 month old who doesn't want their bum changed, slaved to make a meal for an hour or 2 that as soon as served gets thrown on the floor, stop breastfeeding every 5-10 mins to take care of your other children's needs, not get a single moment to yourself until 8pm ... and the list goes on... then you can tell *ME* how i am less of a mom than you for using pain medication during child birth.

Jodi - posted on 09/05/2010

Emma, what you need to do is your own research and then feel more confident about your own parenting choices. It absolutely is confusing, because their are so many different choices and opinions out there. But when it comes down to it, you are the only one who knows your child well enough to make those choices. So make them, be confident with it, and just ignore what others have to say, or respond with "well, that's not the way I have chosen to do it", or something to that effect. Honestly, they aren't norms, and they aren't anyone else's business unless you decide to ask for help or an opinion, or unless you are doing something to harm your child.

Jenni - posted on 09/05/2010

I still don't understand how a dummy is detrimental. As far as "trying" them I did try them with both my children. Not b/c other people were telling/suggesting that i use one. I tried them for my childrens' reflux. Sucking on a pacifier helps them keep their meals down and prevent them from burning their esophogus. My children didn't take to them so that was that. My daughter decided she enjoyed her thumb over a paci. I still haven't seen the proof of how they are harmful to babies. I've never had anyone 'push' a paci on me infact i've only experienced the opposite; people telling me not to because your baby will become reliant on it. (which is no less true than a thumb except you can take a paci away).

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

it's just everyone like my mothers group and people from school and church and family. a lot of people kept telling me to hurry up and give him solids too because they all started at 4 months etc. It's very annoying and confusing.

Alison - posted on 09/05/2010

I've had a think about this one and read the other posts. I think it's tempting to assume that something is a social norm if other people we know are doing it, but that isn't the reaity. As an example, a nursing mother might assume that everyone is weaning before her or a formula feeding mother might assume that people are judging, but it has to be put into perspective. Most people in society don't feel as passionately about raising our children as we do and they probably don't have a strong opinion on any of these issues. A good way to look at it is that not everyone has kids the same age as ours and some people don't have kids at all. The truth is that most people don't care what we do.

I develpoed a bit of a victim mentality when friends and family kept pushing the solids issue and I assumed that it was a social norm to start early. I've since learned that this isn't the case. We actually live in a day and age where there is more information out there so that people can feel more empowered to make choices for their children without having to worry so much about social norms. I care a lot less about social norms these days than I did when my son was a baby.

Jodi - posted on 09/05/2010

It must be the people you socialise with Emma, because I have never had that happen. I would also never do that to someone, and I don't know anyone who does :) I don't know, maybe they did, but I ignored it because it's none of their fucking business when it all comes down to it.

Ultimately, a social norm is an unspoken social "rule", I see no social rules or expectations here. I see opinions and differing viewpoints, but I would never see any of them as social norms.

Kate CP - posted on 09/05/2010

Social norms are the behavioral expectations and cues within a society or group. This sociological term has been defined as "the rules that a group uses for appropriate and inappropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. These rules may be explicit or implicit. Failure to follow the rules can result in severe punishments, including exclusion from the group."

So, now that we know what a "social norm" is, we are better equipped to answer this question. None of the statements in the original post are part of a sociological stigma in today's society. These are merely different opinions in the standards of care and childrearing. If these techniques were, indeed, "detrimental" there would be a great number of dead infants to attest to their side effects.

Because you chose a certain method of birth and childrearing does not make you smarter, healthier, or better than another mother. It only makes you different. Isn't THAT the "social norm" we should come to embrace and teach our children: that we are all different and accepted.

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

I'm just saying.. it's so normal to give your kid a dummy. And if you'd still have people saying "where's his dummy? doesn't he have a dummy?!". It gets on my goat.

Jaime - posted on 09/05/2010

My SIL never tried one for my nephew, my sister never tried one for either of her kids, my cousin has four kids and never used a soother for any of them...does that answer your question Emma?

Jodi - posted on 09/05/2010

I know a lot of people who never had them. I also know a lot who did. It's a personal choice, not a social norm. There IS NO SOCIETAL RULE that is expected to be followed, so it is NOT a social norm.

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

How many people do you know that never tried a dummy?

Jodi - posted on 09/05/2010

Emma, not everyone does them, and they are not norms. They are things SOME parents choose to do and others choose not to. Social norms are something ALL parents follow and if you don't follow you will be excluded or punished in some way. I hardly think many of these would classify as social norms.



There is a big difference between a social norm and an outdated or unwanted opinion or unsolicited advice.

Alison - posted on 09/05/2010

I don't like the way these things have become the social norm, but I'm not against people making individual choices for their birth/babies.

Carolee - posted on 09/05/2010

I have not read all of the other posts, but I would like to say that I am horrified that it is the "social norm" that people like you (Melissa Himes) have the audacity to post such a rant on a public forum. People like you are why I fear for my kid's futures. If you are so adamant that other people should not do anything that YOU do not approve of, what do you think you are teaching to your kids? I truly hope my kids never run into people like you. It saddens me when people are closed-minded and me-centric like that.

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

and they are social norms.

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

i didn't say they were detrimental! i said i didn't want to do them even though they are normal things to do and everyone does them.

Rosie - posted on 09/05/2010

but emma, how is any of that other than the honey detrimental? aren't those just things that you just didn't want to do?

Jaime - posted on 09/05/2010

Still doesn't make parenting choices equivalent to social norms Emma. People love to throw advice at parents whether it is wanted or not and whether it is up-to-date or something their great great grandmother did back in the day when she was giving birth to her babies in a corn field. Social norms and parenting advice are not the same thing.

I gave my son a soother because I felt he needed one...but some of my friends don't

I had an epidural because I wanted one, not because everyone told me to get one

I didn't breast feed past three weeks because I chose not to, not because it was inconvenient

An example of a supposed social 'norm' is nuclear family, not whether or not a mother gave her kid fucking soother or had an epidural during labour!

Stifler's - posted on 09/05/2010

When my son was a newborn people were like GIVE HIM A DUMMY... PUT SOME HONEY ON IT TO GET HIM TO TAKE IT.. give him formula at night to make him sleep... if you don't have an epidural you're mad (they weren't even an option at the hospital here nor was I even worried about it and didn't want one), give him some warm water, put some rice in his bottle lalalala and it wasn't just my mother in law it was other randoms who thought they were right and just because everyone gives their kid a dummy and chooses to formula feed after 3 weeks of attempting to breastfeed doesn't mean I wanted to.

Jenni - posted on 09/05/2010

Pain medication---pffff i had an epideral with my son. I had no question in my mind that i would use one. I wanted my birth experience to be as pleasurable as possible. I really can't see anything wrong with women opting to use pain medication nor do i think they are *pressured* by social norms to do it. Some women just feel if they don't have to endure the pain of childbirth, why would they? I mean before pain medication was invented people would endure risky operations or have limbs amputated with nothing more than a shot of whiskey. Would you opt for no pain meds for an operation. Speaking of which... back to my epideral... I ended up having to get an emergency c-section b/c my son was breeched. My epideral wasn't working properly and i *FELT* the entire operation. Yes every little searing pain it felt like i was being disemboweled. I have never wailed so much in pain in my life. Afterwards i couldn't even hold my son b/c i was in so much pain. So not everyone experiences the picture perfect birth that makes them MORE of a mom. My daughters birth was similar except i reached 9.5 and wouldn't progress beyond. They turned off my epideral b/c i was in a catch-22 and were opting for a csection AGAIN. Not my ideal birthplan whatsoever. So i was at 9.5 cm on the brink of labour with no epideral for 5 hours before the doctor was available to deliver my baby girl. But i guess b/c i didn't give birth in a bloody manger, i am less of a mom.
I don't quite understand when people say formula-feeding is more conveinant while others say breastfeeding is.... i breastfed both my children and i actually thought of breastfeeding as more conveinant. I mean you don't have wash bottles, warm milk, go to the store and buy more. I don't think many women opt to use formula like they did in the 50's I think if anything we are educated to breastfeed to our babies. Breastfeeding advocation is on the rise and pediatricians agree on the benefits of breastmilk over formula. I think that the social norm is to breastfeed or at least try to breastfeed. If a mother finds it's not agreeable for herself, her baby or her family that is her prerogative. I would NEVER care or look down at a mother who chooses formula b/c i chose to breastfed. I guess i don't feel the need to snub my nose at any other mother or need to compete.
Scheduling.... my son had reflux... if i didn't have him on a schedule i would wind up overfeeding him contributing to his pain. My daughter i was able to follow her and she quickly developed her own routine.
Pacifiers are not SHOVED into babies mouths and as many have already pointed out reduce the risk of sids. As well as give my time to heal instead of falling into vicious cycle of postpartum depression due to lack of sleep.
I don't believe ANYONE aside from drug addicts leave their babies to cry unattended for hours. I think you're referring to 'ferberizing' I wont bother to explain what it involves. It's clear that you didn't take the time to educate yourself on the method before condoning it.
I find it funny that you feel today's social norms are distorted when mothers in the past use to think it was safe to give their babies' whiskey for teething, or to fall asleep or give their babies honey.... anyone got any more?

Sharon - posted on 09/05/2010

I'm not any more impressed with your clarification or justification. this post still sucks.

Good Day! - posted on 09/05/2010

Read the responses. Everything that I was thinking has been said and then some...lol.

Good Day! - posted on 09/05/2010

Oh geeze, rolls eyes. I just got to this thread. I'm about to go read the responses (I'm sure there are some interesting ones) but I'd like to say that I know many healthy happy well adjusted children that were born via drugs, drank formula, had a schedule, had a pacifier, etc. Seriously, non of those things are "detrimental" or abusive. I'll be back in a few minutes after reading the responses.

Jodi - posted on 09/05/2010

No, what I am saying is that it has nothing to do with TODAY'S social norms. Mother in laws have been giving outdated advice for centuries, LOL......



And just for the record, dummies/pacifiers were around way before I was a baby (over 40 years ago), and even then, people were split over it. So it isn't a new thing, that's my point.