Kids these days!!!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/24/2012

I am contributing our problem children to parents not spending the time they should be with their children, rather do to guilt and the child's' boredom, they purchase them everything under the sun (especially virtual gaming) and send them on their merry way to learn or play on their own (if you wanna call gaming a learning/playing experience). It has nothing to do with being home more, it has to do with how quality time is spent, if at all.

In addition to not wanting to rock the "discipline boat" in fear of being ridiculed. Therefore, they play a passive role in the discipline department.

Also, in not spending the effort in guiding their children to become self sufficient, independent young adults. So, there are multiple factors, in my opinion, just some parents include all of them, which creates very entitled children.

Toni - posted on 05/24/2012

So you are contributing our 'problem children' to parents not being home more meme?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/24/2012

Well, just going by what I have witnessed. These males I speak of are not in school. They may have just got by grade 12. 3 do work, the other does not. One works in a warehouse, another at a convenience store and the other at Canadian Tire. They are what you call "spongers". They do not want to embrace adulthood, due to fears or inability from being coddled.

You don't think the parents of the *flower children* of the 60s were saying the same thing you are saying here about their over-indulged generation?

I don't think they were saying their children were entitled. Perhaps pot heads! Perhaps, free willed and not bothered of seeking goals and acting out on them. Which is why I have said, there are more than likely some common complaints. Although, my parents left home at 16, had a baby (me) at 17 and had awesome careers by age 18. So, the flower child era, is not something any of my family contributed to. They were all very hard workers and still are. ;)

Or is it simply a major societal change that we are still trying to understand and manage, and that our children are not over indulged, but that they think differently than we do because of their general environment?

I believe many children are over-indulged and less parents spend quality time with their children. I see it happening all too often. I have a friend that works for CPS, here in NS. She can vouch, that children these days are far less given hands on parenting and are over-indulged with materialistic items. They are left to "play" on their own, with all their wonderful virtual toys. they are not made to go out and get "real" play under their belts. Why do you think obesity is so prevalent? Because, parents are not taking the time to prepare healthy food choices and creating an active environment, for their kids.

Whether previous generations having difficulty understanding or accepting the youth, is a reoccurring phenomena, I cannot state for sure. I can only say, it is true for today and it can be distasteful, in the least.

Jodi - posted on 05/24/2012

"Many are continuing to live at home, well into their 30's and not trying to get out in the big world and seek independance or contribute to their society."



Studies on this have said that the reasons for this are not about parenting, but about the increased value placed on education, and that continued education retards the maturity of our teens. In past generations, education beyond the early teens was a rarity. I can tell you that my father-in-law left school and started work at age 9. My ex mother-in-law left school at 12 for the same reason. My mother was told by her father that her education beyond high school was a waste of money because she was a girl - she went to university on a scholarship. Most kids left with their Leaving Certificate at age 15 or 16. When I was at school, it was not uncommon for students to leave school once they attained their Year 10 certificate at about 16.



Now, it is almost unheard of. In fact, you must stay in some sort of education program until you are at LEAST 17. Year 12 is pretty much considered a minimum by many employers. In this country tertiary education entrance is up to 40% of the graduating student population. I did have a look for some statistics, and without spending time I don't have, I just couldn't find any (I did see some several months ago when I was looking over some sociology documents, but not sure where), but I am pretty sure even 15-20 years ago tertiary education was not at this level.



So, is this about indulgent parenting, indulged children, or a changing society.......just as society went through major change and upheaval in the '60s and '70s, just as it went through upheaval in the '30s and 40s, and so on. How are OUR particular challenges really all that greater than the challenges of those generations. You don't think the parents of the *flower children* of the 60s were saying the same thing you are saying here about their over-indulged generation? Or is it simply a major societal change that we are still trying to understand and manage, and that our children are not over indulged, but that they think differently than we do because of their general environment?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/24/2012

I agree Johnny. I have no idea what it was like in the past (I think I touched on this in one of my posts, here). I didn't live back then, I can only go on what people (older people) have to say about there generation compared to this one. However, as you get older you have less tolerance, too. LOL So, who knows, right.

I agree, that there was probably very common complaints in the past. I mean really, how could there not have been? I just think that they were based on different reasons. I do think, it is perhaps more prevalant now but I blame technology and parents not shutting games down and kicking their kids outside, to play! As well as, many parents contributing to give their kids everything, even the poorer ones. Out of all the stories I have heard, one sticks out the most for todays kids. Many are continuing to live at home, well into their 30's and not trying to get out in the big world and seek independance or contribute to their society. I actually know, 4 people like this. Although, the odd thing is, they are ALL male. hmmmm, Momma's boys I guess. ;)

Johnny - posted on 05/23/2012

Some people are not stuck here in an endless time loop like we are. Just because we've debated everything before doesn't mean that applies to everyone. When I see the same topic or comments being repeated, I ignore it. It's really my problem that I'm still here debating the same thing after 3 years. Not anybody else's.

Has it ever occurred to all the people who are SO sure that kids today are more entitled and that parents today aren't as good as they were in the past that you weren't alive then so you don't really actually have any true idea about how it was in the past? Look at the entire industry of psychology and psychiatric drugs that sprung up to treat the baby boomer generation. Maybe they were the worst, most misbehaved, most entitled generation of all time and we're just on the road to recovery. If you look at the most of the social and economic indicators, this is actually an arguable idea.

Janice - posted on 05/23/2012

I'm a noob, I haven't been here a year so I don't mind.

Jodi - posted on 05/23/2012

Well, please show me where the other two quotes have ever been quoted. Because they haven't. I will absolutely agree the Socrates quote has been used (never by me, and look, MeMe hadn't seen it before, so it just goes to show there are people were who haven't debated the topic previously), but the other two have not.

Honestly, what is your problem that you have to make such an issue of it? Do you really think your attitude is appreciated by others when the FIRST comment you have about a debate is to just pick on the topic of the debate? Do you have nothing more intelligent than that in your FIRST post on a topic (and your second post barely scrapes the bottom either)? I honestly think you were just trying to stir trouble or assert your superiority or something. It certainly didn't contribute anything.

Rebecca - posted on 05/23/2012

Jodi, I can count on one finger the amount of times I've complained about a debate being pointless and I got a lot of flack for it (so maybe that's why you remember it) and that was over a year ago.

I actually enjoy reading debates without commenting, if I see the same quotes passed around...to me, that's a bit lazy. That's "why the fuck" I bother.

I also added this:


I happen to think each gen has a lot of things in common due to their shared nurturing experience. Some gens are more entitled, some are not, some are more lazy, some are more motivated....and then there are people who stand outside it all regardless of their gen.

And apologized if I offended anyone...

It looks like DMs is really clearing out lately and the same things are being written by the same people. I thought it was of note. You don't want the same three people debating the same topics with the same quotes....or do you?

Whelp, I'll leave ya to it. I'll go back to reading and if someone wants to keep using the same old quotes - up to them.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/23/2012

Well, just to make it clear, I have never ever heard those quotes myself. I actually found them interesting. Since I had never heard them before, it made me think, you know, every generation more than likely has had many of the same beef's about the youngster's in their generation. Although, I bet, many would have a conniption of how some kids act today.



I still do believe, though, that we have a lot of children that feel they are entitled, in our generation of kids. I do think that too many parents are passive or do not try different techiniques, when the ones they have tried do not work. Also, too many parents are not consistent and give a consequence but fall back on it before they should. I see this frequently, especially with my daughters' friends. They are still pretty good kids, meaning they are not into drugs or anything but I can see that possibly changing for a few of them, unfortunately. Does this mean, it is only in our generation? I doubt it. I just think we have different things to bitch about. Since we live differently, then the previous generations.

Jodi - posted on 05/23/2012

And just for the record, I have never used those quotes before myself. Thought I'd add that to keep Rebecca happy.

Jodi - posted on 05/23/2012

"Jodi, did you start this thread to just pull out the Socrates/Seneca quotes again? I've seen you use these quotes a few times. Maybe some new quotes?"

Seriously? That's all you have to contribute to the debate? If you don't like it, then hit the back button. Don't just enter a debate purely to bitch about it. You tend to have a habit of doing that. For the life of me I can't figure out why the fuck you bother.

Rebecca - posted on 05/23/2012

So, those quotes don't seem to end the debate and people consistently seem to disagree....don't see how that means they should keep being used? I would think my suggestion of new ones isn't dickish, it is just observant. The quotes don't seem to be worth pulling out repeatedly if they don't seem to make a dent, unless it is just to pull a Socrates reference into it. Therefore, it might be good to pull some new ones that might work.

And yeah, I don't have much else to add to the debate, other than it seems the same as several others, the same quotes are being used and you are either one of those people who think times have changed/this gen is different in its own way or you are not.

I happen to think each gen has a lot of things in common due to their shared nurturing experience. Some gens are more entitled, some are not, some are more lazy, some are more motivated....and then there are people who stand outside it all regardless of their gen.

Sorry to offend, just found it a bit repetitive to see the same quotes over and over again.

Stifler's - posted on 05/23/2012

The reason Jodi has used those quotes before is because we've had this exact debate before and people continue to say that this generation is the worst then that will get said about our kids and their kids.

Janice - posted on 05/23/2012

Elementary school is typically K-grade 5or 6 which is ages 5-11/12.

What Sylvia is saying is true in schools near me. "inventive" spelling is encouraged for young students to just get their words on paper but then they are corrected later. Or at least most schools still correct them.

However, I do agree with Rachael's post. I got carried away talking about entitlement related to parental purchases and gifts but that was not the main point I wanted to make when I first posted. I see threads like the one about the girl suing for not getting into the college she wanted and I think entitled brat. There is no way anything like that happened 30+ years ago.

I truly think that many young adults and children believe that anything bad that happens is someone else's fault. They do not take ownership of their mistakes. My husband spent high school doing drugs and skipping, yet he often blames the school or his mom for barely graduating and being able to do more. We have been together since we were 15, believe me they did try. We were born in 1983.

I can't pinpoint exact causes of entitlement because now that I think of it my friend (I use that term loosely we have grown apart a lot) grew up poor and never had a lot yet now as an adult she feels entitled to state assistance. She quit her job at 20 weeks pregnant just because she didnt feel like working and because she was pregnant the state "has to help me." She was mad that they didnt give her as much help as she though she deserved and that the worker gave her attitude about the fact she quit her job.

Maybe its not the generation, maybe its just where I live :(

Sylvia - posted on 05/23/2012

I think here they call JK-Grade 3 "primary" and Grades 4-6 "junior" or "elementary" (but schools are JK-6 or, like my DD's school, JK-8). Where I grew up K-6 was "elementary". Who knows :P

The interesting thing is that learning to read *doesn't* teach you to spell. Or it doesn't always. Many, many people are avid readers yet can't seem to learn to spell -- enough that I can think of half a dozen examples just among my own friends and family, one or two dyslexic but most not. English spelling is just incredibly frustrating. It's actually very logical, but only if you know the etymology of every word, and of course nobody does -- when you try to come up with a rule that covers the whole of English (a magpie language made up of vocabulary ganked from dozens of other languages over the past thousand-plus years and/or just made up), you end up tying yourself in knots ("I before E, except after C, and when sounded like 'eh' as in 'neighbour' and 'weigh'") and you can still find exceptions ("weird"). Obviously people can become *better* spellers; they can learn the rules for what they're worth, they can memorize frequently used words, they can learn strategies to make spellcheck work for them instead of against them... But IME, either you're an intuitive "good speller", like me -- which doesn't mean I'm *smarter* than my dyslexic BFF with the master's degree in astrophysics, just that our brains work differently -- or you aren't, and how much you read doesn't seem to make much difference.

Then there's my mom, who used to be a good speller but now works in and speaks so many languages (English, Italian, Spanish, French, Romanian, German) that she's started to second-guess herself, because "it looks right" is no longer a reliable guide :P

Toni - posted on 05/23/2012

That makes sense, Sylvia, although technically by teaching children how to read you are teaching them how to spell in a roundabout way. The way rachael made it sound was they weren't teaching them at all, I didn't believe that.

Is elementary school grade 1 and 2? we have nursery and infants school here, I assumed elementary was like our juniors schools (age 7-10 roundabouts).

Sylvia - posted on 05/23/2012

Toni, it's certainly true that in the very early grades (like, grade 1 and maybe partway into grade 2) most teachers will have kids write narrative or descriptive journals and not do a lot of spelling correction. That doesn't mean they're not working on spelling, it just means that they no longer have to learn how to spell a certain number of words correctly before they're allowed to try writing a story, and that their writing isn't restricted to the words they already know how to spell. Kids' invented spellings can also be quite informative as to how they're hearing and pronouncing words and how well they understand letter sounds and letter combinations. Formal teaching of spelling focuses not just on words that are easy to spell (cat, hat, it ...) but on words that are useful to know (the, and, why ...). I've never heard of a school actually *never teaching kids how to spell* (although I can understand how it might kind of look that way).

Toni - posted on 05/22/2012

So we agree then there are wackadoodle parents who don't do anything or who don't teach values (like your neighbour) but they aren't new to our generation and realistically are pretty rare.



I wonder if maybe people like your neighbour place less value on material things (I'm not saying your neighbour does, I'm just pondering out loud really), I have a bil who is on his 25th issue credit card and lord knows how many phones he's lost in the past couple of years but he's not entitled, he just puts more value on living life than material things.



Rachael, any evidence of these schools that aren't correcting spellings? And why they aren't if they aren't?



Eta...changed incorrect word

Elfrieda - posted on 05/22/2012

I think it swings back and forth through the generations. So when there are actually hard times people pull up their socks and try to develop character and perseverance, etc, but then things get better and those people's grandkids don't see the point of all that hard work and are more self-indulgent. As a result things get hard again and we need to work harder at getting along as a society, including better-behaved kids. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Rachael - posted on 05/22/2012

I think it's a new environment and parents are more afraid to do nything that would hurt their child. we are more focused on making sure they are the best and most well rounded and smartest and that we don't do anything to damage their self esteem and be all politically correct. Those things are important but i think that this generation of parents has gone a bit overboard. I've heard of some schools who don't correct speeling in elementary schools because they don't want to stifle the child's creativity by bogging them down with things like spelling and grammar. Those extremes, to me, are ridiculous. Kids now have a sense of entitlement because we tell them they can do whatever they want if they work hard enough and while it's a nice message it's not realistic. We coddle kids a bit too much

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/22/2012

I do agree that cell phones have become a byproduct of our society, that was created by evolution of technology. But do they really need smart phones?? I think not. I know many parents that have gone out and boughten their 7-15 year old child an Android/Blackberry/IPhone, I don't see the need for these, as a child. To me that IS excessive and is contributing to entitlement. I can afford to get my 14 year old a smart phone, does she have one? Nope. She has a regular phone, with unlimited texting and I had the internet blocked. She can get a smart phone, when she has a job and can pay for it. I can call her or text her, with her regular phone.



Some kids feel they are entitled because their parents are wack jobs and want their kids to have the best or better than the next. That is not creating a child that understands the meaning of a dollar or the meaning of responsibility. My neighbour has boughten their son (12 years old) 5 cell phones in the past 1.5 years because he keeps either losing them or breaking them. He doesn't care how much they cost because his parents keep replacing them. So, yes, there are some crazy ass parents out there, that are not teaching their children very much but entitlement. However, I am sure these types of parents existed before, too.

Toni - posted on 05/22/2012

If the quotes work who cares how many times a person uses them...those quotes show that every generation thinks the kids are getting worse, why should Jodi find new quotes just because you've heard her use them before, somebody else may not have!

Thinking about mobile phones do you not think they've almost become a necessity? In a day and age where we are very aware of the risks our children take when they are not with us, which we now recognise can come from anywhere, I mean a teacher who taught one of my friends has just been done for paedophilia, in times before our generation cases of paedophilia and child slaughters were hushed up as a dirty little secret, now they are public knowledge. Is it not the parents who are wanting their kids to have a mobile so they can contact them and know where they are because we have more knowledge of what can happen? So that has a knock on effect, more parents provide a phone for their kids meaning more kids see them and naturally they then want one (you can bet a little girl without a china tea set wanted one) so their patents think well little johnny down the road has one and it'll allow me to keep better tabs on my kid so ok it's worth the cost. Children having mobile phones is a product of our society, our neuroses and our need to control factors outside ourselves (it's just we now have the technology, whereas just twenty years ago they didn't really). Children wanting them are a byproduct of a society we have created not because children are more materialistic!

Johnny - posted on 05/22/2012

Overall, around where I live, I think kids are actually better behaved and more goal-oriented than when I was a kid. Crime rates are lower (especially youth crime), teen pregnancy is way lower, graduation rates are higher, post-secondary attendance rates are higher, youth employment rate is higher, volunteering rates are way up. They seem just about as focused on material things as kids were when I was young, the stuff is just different. Cell phones rather than CD players for example.

Across Canada, youth crime is way down. I don't really know about the other statistics, but I do think people have short and rosy memories about the way things were when they were kids.

Johnny - posted on 05/22/2012

Rebecca, did you really just post only to be a jerk? How about contributing to the thread?

Rebecca - posted on 05/22/2012

Jodi, did you start this thread to just pull out the Socrates/Seneca quotes again? I've seen you use these quotes a few times. Maybe some new quotes?

Janice - posted on 05/22/2012

Okay, I must edit - not "all" but many. I hate to talk in absolutes because its obviously incorrect but in my area it is quite uncommon to meet a child over 10 or 11 with out a phone. And its more common to see a teen with a new phone than one passed down from their parents.

There is a wide range of income levels near me. In fact one of the poorest, crime ridden neighborhoods is butted up against one of the richest neighborhoods where the homes are huge and families make 6 figures. The attitudes of the children aren't that different.

Janice - posted on 05/22/2012

All of them! Jodi, I guess its just different where I live. Most teenagers I know have nicer phones than I do! When I worked as a summer camp teacher 3&4 years ago we actually had to have a policy in place that the children must leave their phones in their cubby. The oldest was 11 years old. Some of them had brand new phones. I did summer camp for 2 years and the kids who had phones the 1st year had new ones the 2nd year.
I agree that many things have not changed but entitlement is worse. Maybe not too much worse than from when I was a kid but definitely way worse than from when my parents were growing up. It used to just be that wealthier families had spoiled kids but now it has less to do with wealth and more to do with actually parenting.

Jodi - posted on 05/21/2012

"You weren't whining at your parents for a new one every year."

How many kids do you know that whine for a new mobile phone every year? I am pretty sure there were SOME kids that DID whine for a new tea set every year, just as there are SOME kids who whine for a new phone every year. EVERY generation has had entitled brats. That's my point. To make comment that it is exclusive to this generation of kids is not correct. It is all relative.

Jen - posted on 05/21/2012

I guess it depends entirely on your standards. While going through my father's stuff the last few days, I found a lot of old newspapers from the very early 80s and late 70s and right on the main page was a murder in broad daylight.

Every generation thinks the younger one is going to pot.

I say no. I say yes we have problems but we no longer view instituational racism as good. We no longer post thenames of people we think may be communists in the local paper (actual article I found in one of the old newspapers.) Non-Christians are no longer jailed or murdered in most countries anymore. We no longer engage in bear baiting or cat burnings. We no longer treat the mentally ill as demon possessed who are incapable of feeling things like pain. We no longer view marital rape as just a disagreement.

I could go on and on. For any bad thing you can present about the 2000s ,I'll give you double the good that we have now compared to even 20 years ago.

Janice - posted on 05/21/2012

But Jodi that expensive tea set became a family heirloom. You weren't whining at your parents for a new one every year.
It used to be when a family splurged on something expensive that was it, a one time purchase. But with technology it is constantly changing so you spend 300$ on a game system then you buy games through out the year and then your kid wants the new system in 1-2 years. You just really cant compare the two. Phones are similar in that most people get a new one every year and you must pay a monthly bill to keep it on.

Stifler's - posted on 05/21/2012

I agree that there isn't the same value in things. I would like to think my iPhone would last as long as my Nokia brick did but it won't and since it's on a plan I might as well get a brand new one for an extra $5 a month, same with childrens toys. Children weren't less rough they just don't make them like they used to. Also quality items were the only thing out there back in the day. Things that cost barely anything back then are worth a lot now. If you wanted a piano with ivory keys you'd be paying big dollars whereas it used to be the only thing they used.

Jodi - posted on 05/21/2012

"You didnt walk into homes of the working poor and find fancy tea sets the way you see every kid despite family income with cell phones. "

Have mobile phones become today's tin soldiers?

And to be honest, my mother was from a working class family, and one of her most treasured possessions was her china tea set......I have parts of it here that she gave me. So yes, many working class families bought their daughters such things.

Toni - posted on 05/21/2012

I honestly believe those parents who don't discipline at all are a rare breed, most parents try to discipline in some way, they aren't always effective in their ways but they at least try. But there were these kinds of parents in every generation.

Lol Janice my kid loves running in the aisles :-)

Sylvia - posted on 05/21/2012

Every generation thinks the next one has it easier than they did, and/or is going to hell in a handcart. Hands up everyone here who never heard a parent or grandparent say "When I was your age, I had to walk ten miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways!" or some equivalent thing. Not many, I bet. When I was a kid, in the late 70s and early 80s, my dad was fond of asking me why I thought I should have X, Y or Z when he hadn't needed those things as a kid in the 30s.

I think a lot of things have changed for the better. We no longer consider children their parents' property or believe that parents (particularly fathers) should have 100% absolute control of the family, which means we as a society are less likely to turn a blind eye to domestic violence. Our kids are more likely to be planned and wanted, thanks to advances in birth control; they're also less likely to die of childhood diseases, thanks to antibiotics and immunization programs. Girls have career opportunities outside the old paradigm of farmer's wife, teacher, nurse, or secretary. I don't know about anybody else, but I sure don't hanker to go back to the days of measles and polio epidemics, corporal punishment at home and at school, "children should be seen and not heard", dads who never saw their kids and mums who never saw anyone else, and leaving school after Grade 8 to help support the family.

OTOH, it's now standard in the English-speaking world to be so terrified your kids will be abducted and murdered that you won't let them walk to school until high school, so afraid they'll hurt themselves that you won't let them use the stove or cut up vegetables or climb a tree, so obsessed with academic achievement and excellence in sports that your kids get no time for imaginative play or to futz around getting bored and thinking up stuff to do ... that, I don't think is an improvement.

Mary - posted on 05/21/2012

"So because, in the past, a child was overindulged because mum and dad handed them a china doll, a real china tea set, a record player, or a Sony Walkman, you don't think this is equivalent to today's child receiving an xBox? You don't think the little girl of yesterday treated her tea set like the girl of today treats the Nintendo DS she received? Is the the technology that makes her overindulged? Is the the type of toy that makes her overindulged? Or is it the attitude and value we place on things today that makes us VIEW today's child as overindulged? Was it overindulgent of my parents to give me a horse when I was a girl? I am sure, at the time, many thought it was. Today, that would simply be seen as fantastic, because it gets me outside away from the technology. Isn't our view of these "entitled" children just our perception and not actually a true phenomenon at all?"

I think this touches on a bit of different issue, Jodi. To me, it's not really that the child given something like a Xbox vs a horse is more spoiled or catered to, but I do think there is a difference in what that child gets out of those "gifts".

A lot of what we give our children today enables a bit more passive parenting. Hell, even at 3.5, I utilize my computer or iphone with my daughter when I want or need to get things done without her. I let her play her "educational" kid games while I fold laundry, or talk to my sister on the phone. Is she learning while doing this? Absolutely - but am I a little more removed from the process than my mom was, whose only option for "educational games" was actually sitting down and playing board games with me? Are the kids playing Xbox interacting with their family or neighbors in quite the same way that you and I did - when our only option for filling the long summer days was being outside with the rest of the kids, playing freeze tag, building forts, or having water balloon fights?

I'm not against "technology", and certainly both utilize it, and realize it's potential as an absolutely wonderful learning tool for people of all ages. However, I do think it has brought on a host of other issues that simply didn't exist in previous generations. I think many, many parents rely on it a bit too heavily to occupy and entertain their kids, in a way that is detrimental to both physical activity and the fostering of creativity. Quite honestly, it gives many a tired, frazzled parent an easy "out" for keeping kids occupied with minimal effort and input on their part.

It does seem to me that many more parents fall into the trap of buying "things" to pacify and entertain their kids - and a lot of those things are more solitary, sedentary endeavors. Janice brings up another interesting point - people of all socioeconomic classes are engaging in this - much more so than in times past. Our credit-driven society has undeniably facilitated this. It is the rare family these days that isn't carrying some form of debt much in excess of prior generations.

I don't for a second believe that kids are "worse" today than they were 25, 50, or a 100 years ago. I don't think that older generations of parents were always "better" either. I do think that parents today do have to make a much more conscious effort to really be present in their kid's lives.

Janice - posted on 05/21/2012

Jodi
How many kids really owned things like china doll and expensive tea sets 40+ years ago? Only the wealthy spent tons of money on their children. You didnt walk into homes of the working poor and find fancy tea sets the way you see every kid despite family income with cell phones. Now even those parents barely scraping by are choosing to give their children expensive none-necessary items. I know people who choose paying their children's cell phone bill over their electric bill! I think back when my parents were growing up they were quite grateful if they received nice things but now many children just expect nice things.
I think places like walmart and television advertising has given everyone - not just children - the "gimmie-gimmies." I think parents are finding it harder to find a balance between making their child happy and also teaching children how to value hard work.

"I think if we can police ourselves to not be obsessed with by fulfiling our every desire, our kids will naturally follow suit." Yes, Jenny I agree.

I also think that 30+ years ago it was rare for a parent to argue with a teacher over their child's grades or to seek revenge on anyone who does not treat them with complete kindness despite their own behavior. I think now things like that happen often. Teacher's are afraid of parent/ teacher conferences and sometimes will lie - I have actually witnessed it as a student teacher - to make a parent happy. I see a child acting mean and when another child returns the anger the parents freak out as if their child is an angel. Did it happen in the past absolutely but I think those types of things are more common now. I say this based on discussions I have had with my mother and other adults in their 50's and beyond.

I do think that rebellion hasn't changed. Kids and teenagers will always push limits. I do not think that has changed much. But the teenager sneaking out in the 40s was probably really scared to get caught while many kids now just don't give a fuck.

Toni - I think we are grocery store soul mates. LOL I could have wrote that part of your post myself except I would call it a cart not a trolley. ;)

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/21/2012

No hitting your child does not mean they will behave any better, actually quite the contrary IMHO. However, in the old days this is the way it was. Therefore, many parents today "only" know of this way, although some also realize it is unacceptable and not a correct means to discipline your child. Unfortunately, they do not know of any other way, other than how they were raised. So, rather than learn new ways, they decide to throw their hands in the air and do nothing. This is where my post was coming from, in regards to "hitting" your child.



Then you have the ones that still believe it is an important part of punishing your child. They will scream to high heaven that it is the only way your child will listen and behave. I agree Toni, they are completely wrong. There is never a need to hit your child.



Some kids have far too many things these days and they do not have to work for them. They are entitled. They are spoiled rotten and they do not respect theirs' or others' items. Those parents that do discipline and are consistent (since this is the most important part), do have great kids. Kids will always try and push the envelope, it is a part of their growth and development. How far they push it and far they are allowed to go, is a whole other story.

Toni - posted on 05/21/2012

I completely disagree with the idea our children are more bratty or more entitled than previous generations.

Most parents discipline their children, but if their boundaries don't meet your boundaries they are perceived to not discipline or to not discipline effectively, when in realty they simply believe something is acceptable that you don't, for example I allow my son to run up empty grocery aisles whilst we are at the supermarket, he isn't hurting anyone, it helps entertain him on a boring task and it helps get sone more energy out, I know some people look and think I have no control over my rampant child when actually he knows that if there is somebody in the aisle he can't run and if I tell him to stop and he doesn't listen he goes in the trolley.

There is also a perception that if you don't hit your child you aren't disciplining them which is complete bullshit, I most certainly do discipline my children when they need it. But it's this mindset that leads people (those who hit their children) to think that children's behaviour is worse nowadays than at times when more people hit their children, they use this propaganda to try and prove they are doing the right thing for their child by hitting them. It of course isn't true, children behave how their boundaries allow them whether you hit is immaterial!

Jenny - posted on 05/20/2012

Nope I don't think kids are any worse. Every generation has its own strugles. The reason why there are so many new parenting theories out there is because circumstances continue to change and we just need to adapt to the new challenges that are specific to our generation of parenting our kids.

If we label our children as living in luxury and feeling entitled, I think we can label ourselves like this too, because lets face it, who spends their whole day carrying water to-and-fro from a well to drink, or goes down to the river for the afternoon to wash a weeks worth of dirty clothes? Not anyone I know, so we are more self indulgent as a soceity.

I think if we can police ourselves to not be obsessed with by fulfiling our every desire, our kids will naturally follow suit.

Janice, you're freind herself sounds like she's living a spoilt lifestyle, not just her daughter. Do you know what I mean? And i'm sure there are people like this in every generation, nothing new.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2012

"And then their are some parents both wealthy and poor who think their kids shit don't stink. And teach them that if they aren't happy then its their right to be assholes. I'm not sure where these dip shits came from but they just need to stop."

"I personally think that children/ teenagers/ young adults today often have an entitled attitude. "

"How much you give your child seems to have become a bigger status symbol than how well your child behaves."

What makes you think these are symptoms purely of this generation?

"Technology has changed so rapidly over the past 30 years that its much easier to over indulge your child than in the past"

So because, in the past, a child was overindulged because mum and dad handed them a china doll, a real china tea set, a record player, or a Sony Walkman, you don't think this is equivalent to today's child receiving an xBox? You don't think the little girl of yesterday treated her tea set like the girl of today treats the Nintendo DS she received? Is the the technology that makes her overindulged? Is the the type of toy that makes her overindulged? Or is it the attitude and value we place on things today that makes us VIEW today's child as overindulged? Was it overindulgent of my parents to give me a horse when I was a girl? I am sure, at the time, many thought it was. Today, that would simply be seen as fantastic, because it gets me outside away from the technology. Isn't our view of these "entitled" children just our perception and not actually a true phenomenon at all?

Stifler's - posted on 05/20/2012

I don't believe they've gotten worse or better. Rebellion is not a brand new thing. Pretty sure mum's mum has the same complaints about my dads family being 'a bit wild' because they were "allowed' (i know right, they were 18+) to go traveling overseas or move out of home to board in town (grandparents had a big grain farm).

Beth - posted on 05/20/2012

I think it's a bit of both. My mom and dad have some crazy stories about when they were kids (the 60s), stuff kids today would probably not even try. But also, kids these days have a lot of luxuries. There's more ways to spoil a child too. Not to say that everyone who spoils is doing it on purpose, but with all the toys and gadgets and electronics it's very easy to go overboard. I read a really good book in college called The Way We Never Were. It talked more about family dynamics in the 50s and 60s vs. now, though that was nearly a decade ago now (my lord!) and maybe isn't that relevant. But the basic idea was we think there was this golden era in history where families were perfect and children were well behaved and everything was great. But in reality that never existed, people have always been pretty much the same, but we were lead to believe otherwise by the media and by people's general denial of their situations.

Janice - posted on 05/20/2012

I personally think that children/ teenagers/ young adults today often have an entitled attitude. Technology has changed so rapidly over the past 30 years that its much easier to over indulge your child than in the past. And now children can much more easily see the differences, so they are asking for more. And parents who grew up with little but are now doing okay want to give their children more. How much you give your child seems to have become a bigger status symbol than how well your child behaves.



I am watching it happen in my own family. My niece is 5 months older than my daughter, she will be 3 on Saturday. It is so hard to buy her a birthday present because she has everything, including a 4 foot tall electronic pony. My SIL went back to work after 4 weeks maternity for baby #2 because she loves buying the kids designer clothing and in general having nice things, including a brand new SUV. This is what she told my MIL. I hate to say this but I think her daughter is a spoiled brat.



If we had more money my hubby would be trying to do the same with our children. Sometimes I do get upset when I go to their home and see all their stuff. But really our kids dont need it. My 2.5 year old doesn't need a life size pony or her own bounce house (yes my niece got one for her 2nd B-day). My son's 100$ crib serves the same exact purpose as her sons 400$ crib. And his 60$ bed set is just as nice as my nephew 260$ one. Ya know!



I remember when I was pregnant with our first, my hubby and I saw a young girl driving a real jolopy and I made a comment that it was probably her 1st car. Hubby states that our kids wont be driving cars like that. I asked who was going to pay for something nicer, us? I dont think so! I bought my own car at 17 and I expect my kids to do the same. I learned a lot about respect and hard work by growing up with out a lot and I think the fact that so many parents are doing everything they can to "over provide" for their child is hurting them.



And then their are some parents both wealthy and poor who think their kids shit don't stink. And teach them that if they aren't happy then its their right to be assholes. I'm not sure where these dip shits came from but they just need to stop.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2012

Okay, if you compare what is expected of children 100 years ago (seen and not heard etc etc) to what is expected of children today (basic respect, although a new attitude of children are people too.) then yes of course, our generation is absolutely terrible! lol BUT, the difference is expectations. Based on the expectations of the kids now, I really don't think they're any worse than kids 100 years ago or more. Kids have always and will always push the boundaries. I think it's a safety net for us to say "Kids these days are aweful!", if we thought kids these days were perfect, discipline would fly out the window and kids really would become terrible.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/20/2012

Well, I mean, I can only base my opinions on my experience and my perception of what I see, when I am out and about. How does anyone come up with their opinion? How did Corrine come up with her statement? Probably from personal experience and perhaps living in this day and age and learning from seeing.

I also, cannot say it is exclusive to this generation of parents but from all the stories I have been told by my "older" family members, most of the kids (no, not all) were very respectful and common sense driven as children, young adults and into adulthood. However, I know for sure there were unruly kids before too. Every single one of my uncles were terrible BUT they grew up in an extremly abusive household, one that most could not fathom. Although, really, it would be silly to not think parents had struggles back then too. Of course there were but who cares about before? We are living in the now. Our kids future are what matters now, not the kids from the last generation. ;)

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2012

Yes, but that is your experience of here and now. How does YOUR experience mean that this is exclusive to this generation of parents?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/20/2012

Jodi---How has our generation of parenting got the exclusive on these things to the point where we use the term "this generation of parents just want to be friends with their kids". Do you know anyone like this? How do you even know there is no discipline? Because you don't see it? because the kids are brats and you just assume it is a discipline issue?

Oh I have witnessed it many o' times. I have several friends that are just like this. There kids, btw, are rotten. As a matter in fact, I would not have their kids at my home for long periods of time.

Also, yes, typically when a child is a brat, there is a discipline issue. Whether it be too little discipline or way too much or the wrong kind, since either way can create terribly acting children.

Jodi - posted on 05/20/2012

But there have been parents of every generation that don't discipline. I don't think that is exclusive to a percentage of this generation of parents. Every generation has its fair share of crappy parents, whether it be abusive parents (which, actually, if you think about it was probably more rife, by our definition, in the past), or parents who simply refuse to discipline or arent' there enough. Think about the war years. Do you think parents had the time then? Half the time it was a single parent household. How has our generation of parenting got the exclusive on these things to the point where we use the term "this generation of parents just want to be friends with their kids". Do you know anyone like this? How do you even know there is no discipline? Because you don't see it? because the kids are brats and you just assume it is a discipline issue?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 05/20/2012

Yes, I do think the struggle is consistent across the generations. I think every generation has more than likely had some struggles. I do believe it is an evolving cycle but I also believe many parents in this age, don't bother because they are either afraid of ridicule or just don't have the time.



What I mean by they want to be their kids' friend is in reference to those parents that don't discipline at all. They want their kids to like them, rather than like them, respect them and learn. There are no boundaries or consequences and very little guidnace. I am able to respect children as a person, while still being their mother. It's all on how you do it. I do not want to be their friend, that is what their peers are for. That does not mean I am not available to sit down and have a chat about their feelings or the sort, it means I am their Mom and I am not going to condone things, when I don't agree with the outcome of those actions.