Lets stir things up...

Rosie - posted on 02/01/2011

i agree jenn, HUGE CROCK.

especially with studies that prove your child has a higher rate of dying FROM INJURIES, falling off a table, whatever, are THE studies used to justify the great and powerful breastmilk. give me real science that isn't clouded by CRAP, and i might believe that. pretty much every study done on breastfeeding doesn't take into account factors that could skew the answers, such as financial well being, or co-sleeping, smoking, obesity. http://www.stats.org/stories/breast_feed...

Laura - posted on 02/01/2011

@Mary-please don't group me in with her. Breast feeding came very easily for me. No probs at all until I had to go back to work and pump. I know it's sooo hard for some people and have total empathy. I also know people who didn't even want to try and that is their choice. Kids are happy, healthy and not at all overweight.

Mary - posted on 02/01/2011

Krista, your questions are a LOT nicer than the ones I'm left with....

If you did breastfeed your child, and somehow they still end up obese, stupid, or sickly, is it because you were a sucky mom who just happened to breastfeed?

Marylea - posted on 02/01/2011

@ Jackie

This was never meant as an attack on women who choose formula. I was merely asking what others thoughts were on the topic of breastfeeding. Little did I know it would turn into 5 pages of debate. I don't think I'm "holier than thou" and I never meant to be condicending. That is your personal perception. I do believe that every woman that is capable of breastfeeding should at least try to. I don't care if people think that's an attack or unfair. I however would never insult or persecute someone for not breastfeeding but if someone asked for my advice on the matter I would tell them the benefits of breastfeeding and get them in touch with a lactation consultant. I would tell them that though it may seem hard at times breastfeeding is a wonderful experience that I wouldn't exchange for the world.



@Hope

I totally agree with you



And as an added note, it seems that more and more women choose formula over breastfeeding (at least where I live) and I've had people look at me pretty weird for saying I breastfed. My cousins exact words were "But why would you want to?" I've also been criticised for breastfeeding past the age of one. So its not just formula moms that have to explain themselves. People are judgmental no matter what you choose.

Mary - posted on 02/01/2011

Becky, I breastfed my child until she self weaned. However, it is posts such as yours that (almost) make me ashamed to admit it, for fear that others might assume I share your rather harsh and judgmental views.

One of the things I've noticed about the more condescending and quick-to-condemn mothers...they tend to be the ones for whom things come rather easily. Instead of thanking their lucky stars that they did not have significant issues with latch, supply, or whatever, they instead come to the grossly erroneous conclusion that breastfeeding is as easy for the rest of the world. Apparently, their child was draining them of not only milk, but compassion and empathy as well.

Tabitha - posted on 02/01/2011

I am honestly sick of breastfeeding threads,there are way to many of them and i see no different answers here than i have in other ones.Agree to disagree, there are specific boards that support both breastfeeding and bottlefeeding, and that is the place this should be :) That way no mom feels guilty for her choice, and can debate how good it is for each instead of how bad it is.

Laura - posted on 02/01/2011

The one with the lower IQ - (I was formula fed and was top in my class in highschool)
The one with an increased chance of dying of sids - (I've known 2 children in my life that have died of sids both were breastfed)
The one with obesity-(me and my siblings all formula fed all of us skinny as rails with high metabolism)
The one who's poo stinks because his gut is reacting against the foreign substance in his body-(poo stinks when they start eating solids too are we not supposed to do that?)
The one who has many more, and much more serious infections throughout his life. -(breastfed nephew had multiple ear infections, tube put in 3 times, tonsils and adinoids removed before the age of 2, other nephew formula fed and healthy as a horse)

Don't get me wrong I'm all for breast feeding and do it myself but your examples are wrong in A LOT of cases.

Krista - posted on 02/01/2011

So, um, Becky?

Are you going to answer my questions or not?

1. If formula is available by prescription only, at what EXACT point do you define "medical need"?

2. How hungry does the baby have to be in order to justify a prescription?
3. If the mother has to try all sorts of alternative methods to increase her milk, how long does this child have to go with a diminished food supply to his body, before a prescription is justified?
4. What does a mother do if she's trying to nurse, it's not working, it's a Friday afternoon, and her doctor can't fit her in until Wednesday morning?

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, so I'm sure you've come up with a foolproof plan to make sure that babies aren't being deprived of nutrients while their moms try to get milk out of uncooperative breasts.

Sara - posted on 02/01/2011

You know, maybe if this wasn't such a contentious issue and people tried to understand why some people find it difficult to breastfeed and were nicer to those people and more supportive instead of being high and mighty about their choices, then people would be more apt to try breastfeeding if they failed the first time or two. Just a thought.

Krista - posted on 02/01/2011

JuLeah, milk banks can be very difficult to come by. I'm on the east coast of Canada. Canada's only milk bank is at the other end of the country, in Vancouver. And they only have enough supply for their own city.



No offense to you, but I find it irksome when people blithely suggest milk banks, as though there's one available on every corner.



Not to mention the fact that if I had used a U.S. milk bank, the milk would have been $3-$5 an ounce. Plus shipping.



We're talking over one hundred dollars a DAY for milk. I don' t know too many families who can afford that.



Edited to add: Oh wait..a lactating service isn't the same thing as a milk bank, is it? So, um, I guess my point, while still valid, is no longer directed specifically to JuLeah.



Don't mind me. I'll be okay.

~Jennifer - posted on 02/01/2011

"The one with the lower IQ

The one with an increased chance of dying of sids

The one with obesity

The one with a higher chance of getting many different cancer's

The one who's poo stinks because his gut is reacting against the foreign substance in his body

The one who has many more, and much more serious infections throughout his life."





^ sorry, but that's a crock of shit.

Becky - posted on 02/01/2011

The one with the lower IQ
The one with an increased chance of dying of sids
The one with obesity
The one with a higher chance of getting many different cancer's
The one who's poo stinks because his gut is reacting against the foreign substance in his body
The one who has many more, and much more serious infections throughout his life.

JuLeah - posted on 02/01/2011

Breast is best so I don't see why anyone would choose not to offer that to their baby. I know folks that adopted and went through a lactating service so their son would have breast milk for the first 8 months of his life.

Sara - posted on 02/01/2011

I have to say that I'd rather have a mother feeding her baby formula and be relaxed and happy than a mother stressing out, having a hellish time trying to breastfeed to the point of making herself and everyone around her crazy. I don't know if you all realize it or not, but there's a lot of pressure to breastfeed. And in that pressure, you're led to believe that it's this natural process that will be easy as pie. Yeah, it's not. Many people have problems, and I begrudge no one for saying that they just don't want to do it and formula feeding their child.

Rosie - posted on 02/01/2011

havn't read any answers, but yes. if a woman doesn't want to is a good enough reason in my book. everyone has their reasons. convienance, depression, just plain not wanting to have a child attached to their boob 24 /7. formula is not poison, formula is great. put a boobfed kid and a formula fed kid next to each other and tell me which one is which. :)

Becky - posted on 02/01/2011

As i have said Rebecca, i would want a whole system in place for mother's before their baby came, education [including information about how detrimental synthetic milk is compared to breast milk] but more importantly how to look after yourself and enable yourself to nurse,Education for your partner [how they can support your nursing]

Increased postnatal care [trained midwifes visiting every day to support you] long term support [groups, health visitors etc...]

And then if with all the help and all the support, in an environment that encourages and nurtures breast feeding mother's, it's still not working out look at the other options.

expressed milk from mother,donated breast milk, synthetic milk.

3

Julianne - posted on 02/01/2011

I exclusively breastfed my daughter, but i can also put myself in other moms shoes. Lots of reasons moms cant breastfeed exist. My bestfriend had hellp syndrome when she was in labor, needed an emergency section and her milk just wasn't enough for the baby, it was taking too much out of her to feed, she wasn't healing properly so she had to quit. She was risking her own health. That did not make her any less of a mom. Choosing formula is just that, a choice.Sometimes formula is forced on the mothers. They have no other choice. Lots of moms have reasons, they may not be legit to others, but its not our place to judge if its the best for their family. After all, they know their family best.

Teresa - posted on 02/01/2011

While I'm a HUGE fan of breastfeeding (obviously since my son is almost 3 and still going....) and I don't understand a woman choosing not to try..... it IS their choice and a baby's right to a less stressed and depressed mother trumps his/her right to breastmilk every day of the week.

Whether you feed your baby breastmilk or formula has NO connection to whether or not you should be a mother or whether or not you are a good mother. A good mother feeds her kid (and a whole lot of other things, but this debate is only about the milk aspect). Period.

Hope - posted on 02/01/2011

I am a breastfeeding mother. The thing that helped me the most was information. I read a book all about breastfeeding and how to do it and it helped me understand what to do so that when the time came I didn't think I would need any assistance. Ya know what? I still saw a lactation consultant three times and had an issue with a nipple that wasn't as pronounced as the other. My baby was refusing that breast. I pumped the milk out on that side but meanwhile just fed her exclusively on the other. My milk came in beautifully on both sides.

I talked to my baby nurse about breast feeding before my baby was born and she said a lot of women she meets have an aversion to breast feeding because they feel it is a sexual thing or because they don't want to be "tied down." To those women I say, you are a mom. You are supposed to be there as much as possible. Personally, I had about a thousand reservations regarding breast feeding. I thought it would hurt. I thought it was offensive and sexual. Prior to actually doing it I was totally grossed out but I resolved that I would do what was best for my child because my personal feelings aren't as important as her well being. She is four months old now and I was guilted into giving her formula one time while in hospital. She has never had formula again.

I'm not at all saying that formula feeding is wrong but that just not trying to breast feed makes me sad because it is undeniably what is best for baby. Breast milk changes to fit your baby's personal nutritional needs, formula doesn't. Breast milk provides a list of other things that help baby to thrive.

I do take issue with women who formula fed because they were depressed. Breast feeding has helped me ward off depression and has been medically documented to help prevent depression and PPD. When you breastfeed your hormones slowly decrease instead of dropping off completely.

But it is a personal choice that every woman has to make on her own. No one should make you feel bad or guilty or like a bad mother just because you use formula.

Rebecca - posted on 02/01/2011

Breastfeeding made my PPD worse, a lot worse. I couldn't get enough milk, I was in pain because I have neurological issues which effect my shoulders and arms, I felt like a failure and a terrible mother because of it. So, I guess Becky, by you logic, it would have been okay, if I was a subpar mother because of my choice, if I was forced to continue breastfeeding because some doctor didn't think I met the needs of a script, I probably would have just offed myself. Then my fiance would have had to try his hand at breastfeeding I guess.

You're totally right, that would have worked out way better.

Jackie - posted on 02/01/2011

@ Marylea - I want you to know that I find your OP extremely "holier than thou," and condescending. Why would you start a thread JUST to make Mom's that chose not to breastfeed FOR ANY REASON feel less than perfect?



Let me tell you (and anyone else that feels the same as you) something.



I BF for the first 5 weeks of my daughters life and it was pure HELL for me. It's not something that I was comfortable with. I felt isolated and was in an incredible amount of pain. I was forced into believing that BF'ing was the ONLY way so I did try. And you know what, I'm glad I did try because this time around, I have the knowledge and experience of being a mom, so I can say to people like you to shove it.



If you don't understand.... well, guess what... YOU don't have to! WHY? Because it isn't you, your child, OR your decision to make.



That'll be all.

Jodi - posted on 02/01/2011

I don't understand why someone, who was capable of producing milk with no real problems would choose formula. I'm not saying there's anything *wrong* with it, I just don't understand.

My twin girls (preemies) are in the NICU as we speak, with a little girl at home I can't be there 24/7. I am having a horrible time with pumping, I ampumping every hour, taking Fenugreek, looking at their pictures etc etc etc and still am only producing not quite half of what I need for both of them. They are being supplemented with formula for what i can't produce and it kills me. But, I pump on and hope that soon my supply will increase and we can be formula free!

Formula has it's times, in my case, my girls would be starving if it weren't available, but I still hate it and hope to be done with it soon! But, to each their own, I don't know everyone's story and so I try not to judge...

Laura - posted on 02/01/2011

To each their own. I personally love breast feeding my children and wish I could have made it longer with my first two, but I had to go back to work and just wasn't getting enough to feed them by pumping. With this one on the way I'm so excited to be able to stay home and hope to make it at least for a full year. I know a lot of mothers who just plain didn't want to (my mother was one of them) there is nothing wrong with that. If you don't have a happy mother you are not going to have very happy (or emotionally healthy) children.

Amanda - posted on 02/01/2011

it can be necessary, for instance, i didn't pump (i hate pumping and am pretty much with the baby 24/7) then bam, out of nowhere i started getting migraines (complete with stroke like symptoms- loss of strength and feeling in arms, loss of vision, etc) so he ended up with a couple bottles of formula. I also ended up in the hospital with a nasty stomach virus, again he ended up with some bottles of formula. there are things that happen that aren't planned and i would much rather a baby be fed then starve until mommy comes back to feed him.....

Melissa - posted on 02/01/2011

I cant see your name either looks like it is Becky I think you are coming across as one of those people who is not pro breast feeding but obssessive in forcing mothers to breast feed, I dont recall all the posts you have made but what if you had the problems some others do, what if you had depression badly afterwards, what if not being able to latch brought you down so bad you couldnt even bond with your baby and they could tell how you were feeling, what if you didnt have enough milk, what if they were hungry constantly and you being pro breast feeding just made the baby have to suffer, be upset, clingy not be able to sleep well ( I see this a few times on the breast feeding group) because you are selfish and want your baby to breast feed no matter what the costs to them. What about FTT babies, babies who need the formula, hell I tried to bf my first I was so relieved to be asked to switch over, I needed that ok because I would ahve felt like a failure bt I was right down the shop buying a tin and she drank it down so fast she was so hungry. My baby ended up needed extras calories in her formula (more scoops) which made her constipated so bad plus early solids with high calories, then switched to pediasure at 12 months, plus night feeds til 18 months, can you imagine if my baby had been breast fed I can gurantee she wouldnt be here today.

I am 100% for breast feeding I am probably a little over the top also with my beliefs but not too the point of distressing the mother or baby. Happy mum happy baby

Isobel - posted on 02/01/2011

I think if oooh ouchy makes her not want to do it...it's her body and her choice.

I would far rather her be happy in her parenting decisions and in control of her own body than be told that she has to do anything.

Melissa - posted on 02/01/2011

ok so Ive only read up to page 3 now, but I had to add I used to think the idea of prescription formula only was great when I first heard it might be happening here in Austrlia , then I thought about things like those mentioned here, and the fact that I myself, someone very pro breast feeding, just didnt have the emotional ability to even get the hang of breast feeding iwthout formula with my second. I left the hospital a few hours after the birth, and I was formula feeidng by the time I left I couldnt latch like most people and the midwives just made me feel worse then they said sarcastically you cant even feed your baby how can you leave the hospital something along those lines I got out the formula made her a bottle and just wanted to go home to learn and try to latch her and get her breast feeding. I wanted out of there straight away. My first 2 breast feeds after birth were success, not the rest. Of course I didnt have any more trouble then the average perosn but to me it felt alot because I dont deal with stress or things going wrong well. I formula fed for 2 days straight while pumping then I started breast feeding at day and formula at nigth hubby wouild do bottle I would pump at the same time, I couldnt handle the pain and my night times were recovery time for my sore nipples lol. By the time she was 2 weeks she was solely breast fed. Im so glad I made it. I feel happier then ever

Shauna - posted on 02/01/2011

ITs a law in the States that your workplace has to allow you time to pump, and also a private place to pump. That being said. Yeah i think every women needs to at least try, and not say oooh ouchy .. no thanks.

Bonnie - posted on 02/01/2011

Prescriptions are usually a lot more than items on the shelf. I don't feel it would be right to force a mother to get a prescription for formula just because she cannot breastfeed.

Bonnie - posted on 02/01/2011

Some mothers can't produce enough breast milk in order for their baby to be satisfied at each feeding so they have to supplement with formula.
Some mothers find that a breast feed takes more time than a bottle feed does.
Personally, for myself, I breastfed my first child. For my second child, I wanted to, but only lasted a week or two for health reasons. It sucked. I felt terrible not being able to continue.

Joy - posted on 02/01/2011

ROFL Tara! Just the visual....



I think what Erin H said sums it up for me. Especially the part where she said, "the reality is that every woman has her own limits". A woman reaching her limits, whether it be pain, frustration, or a whole host of other reasons, doesn't mean she's a bad mother or should have never had children. If anything, realizing our limits is part of what makes us GOOD mothers.



And to whoever it is that's posting and I can't see your name for some reason, sweeping, generalizing statements don't work for ANY discussion. If you breastfed and had a perfect experience, that truly makes me happy. If you breastfed, had issues, but kept at it, I'm seriously proud of you. But don't question any mother's ability to be a good mother based on YOUR experience. It's different for us all.

Sarah - posted on 02/01/2011

Damn, it's so disheartening to realise 6yrs in, that I'm not actually ready for motherhood!

Better go take to the adoption agency........*sigh*

Krista - posted on 02/01/2011

Give it time, Tara. Someday our breasts will reach our soles, so it'll be much easier.

Mind you, by that time, our breastfeeding days will probably be long over.

So I'm really not sure what to do in this instance.

Tara - posted on 02/01/2011

Yeah Joy, I don't know about this person but I didn't care too much about putting my soles into my breastfeeding relationship either. They're kind of at the other end of my body and found it difficult to get them up to my boobs every 4 hours or so...

Krista - posted on 02/01/2011

'Twas Becky who said formula should only be available via prescription.

Stifler's - posted on 02/01/2011

I can't see the name either.

Isobel - posted on 02/01/2011

I think that closed minded people shouldn't be allowed to raise children...it's detrimental to the child's well being.

Krista - posted on 02/01/2011

So Becky, I'd like to see you address some of the more logistical points that people have brought up.

If formula is available by prescription only, at what EXACT point do you define "medical need"? How hungry does the baby have to be in order to justify a prescription? If the mother has to try all sorts of alternative methods to increase her milk, how long does this child have to go with a diminished food supply to his body, before a prescription is justified? And what does a mother do if she's trying to nurse, it's not working, it's a Friday afternoon, and her doctor can't fit her in until Wednesday morning?

What then? Answer me that, please.

Joy - posted on 02/01/2011

I take offense to anyone saying my son's IQ is somehow lower than a breastfed baby by a person who put their "whole body heart and sole" into breastfeeding.

Isobel - posted on 02/01/2011

I can't see your name (person who is saying formula should be available by prescription only)

I have a question for you. Are you personally going to strap down the women who don't want to breastfeed and force them to? Will you, personally hold yourself responsible for the babies who are shaken to death by depressed mothers? What about the neglected babies of mothers who get flashbacks to being molested or raped?

Would you mind if I came to your house and personally checked all the food in your house to make sure it meets up with MY standards? and replace it by force if it doesn't?

Tara - posted on 02/01/2011

Excuse me?? So are you really saying that if a women chooses not to nurse even though she physically can, she should not be a mother at all????
Jebus I'll let my friend know how you feel about that, she chose not to nurse, but she is an excellent mother, but apparently that doesn't matter cause she chose to give her kid formula...
WTF?

Stifler's - posted on 02/01/2011

I don't really careee. If a woman doesn't want to breastfeed, trying to make her will just make her and her baby unhappy. Babies deserve to not have to be plugged in to negative hormones.

Becky - posted on 02/01/2011

I feel that when you make the decision to bring another life into this world, you not only have to offer up your breasts , but your whole body heart and sole, if your not ready for the sacrifice your not ready for motherhood!

Tara - posted on 02/01/2011

Ummm.....
Making formula a controlled substance will only lead to a whole slew of problems, including malnourished babies being fed the way my grandmother was fed: with evaporated milk mixed with corn syrup, or some other home made formula type substance.
You can't force women to breastfeed.
And Becky while I appreciate your passion for breastfeeding, and I applaud your dedication to the cause, so I assume you know a lot about it.
However have you thought of it this way:
Mom doesn't want to nurse, maybe it makes her extremely uncomfortable because she feels it is too sexual (not right, but still how some women feel), or any other mental or emotional reason, forcing her to breastfeed her baby is setting her up for resentment which that baby will feel. Even if she pumps and bottle feeds, she is still required by law to use HER breasts for something she doesn't want to use them for.
It's simply NOT fair and the way you're putting it across as a baby's "right" to breastfeed makes the mom seem like they are just a feeding mechanism and should have to offer up their breasts to their infants regardless of their own feelings about it.
Little fascist in my opinion.

Krista - posted on 02/01/2011

Right.

And what about a baby's right to not effing STARVE while his mommy is waiting for the doctor's appointment?

Kate CP - posted on 02/01/2011

Well, it's up to Mom ultimately but I think if you're able to breastfeed you should at least TRY. But I don't think a woman should be forced to do it just because she CAN.

That being said...if any one needs me to nurse their kid I have more than enough supply. But pumping isn't working. :/

Becky - posted on 02/01/2011

What about a babies right to have all the benefits of being breastfed?
Bottle fed babies have
LOWER IQ
HIGHER INCIDENT OF COT DEATH
ILL MORE OFTEN AND MORE SERIOUSLY
MORE LIKLY TO BE OBEESE
the list goes on....

Becky - posted on 02/01/2011

It's about looking at ways of ensuring that women get the support and the education they need when they need it…Having to get some sort of prescription ... then the woman is sitting with a health professional who can go through her breastfeeding problems and set up a plan of action to help her achieve her goal of successfully breastfeeding her baby.” women should give breastfeeding their best shot before switching to formula.
Artificial formulas have to meet food safety standards, but they are at best basic nutrition. They don't provide anywhere near what a mother's own breast milk can provide…So they're a substandard product. We know that children that aren't breastfed exclusively for at least six months run, have higher incidences of chronic disease in the long term.

Joy - posted on 02/01/2011

It's a personal choice. We are given information about both and left to choose on our own. There are other reasons, aside from medical, that women don't breast feed. It's a matter of us, as part of being good moms, respecting each other's decisions and knowing that we are all (BF or FF moms) doing what we feel is right for our own particular circumstances.



Edit: I just wanted to add that I fully support and advocate breastfeeding. I also think it should at least be given a try, especially by new moms who don't know for sure if they will enjoy it, or be able to, etc.



I so badly WANTED to breastfeed my son. But those mushy gushy bonding moments didn't really start happening for me until I switched to formula. Before that, I was too concentrated on the seering pain going through my chest during feedings. I was too concentrated on not smushing my son's head in my hand...I literally had to hold a raquette ball in my hand to focus on that, so I wouldn't accidentally squeeze the baby. 2 lactation specialists, several visits to the midwife and 2 months later, I switched to formula and there was instant relief. Instant joy. It took me a long time to stop beating myself up over it....but whoever said "happy mommy, happy baby" was right.

Becky - posted on 02/01/2011

Between 1 and 2 % of women cant breastfeed. feeding your baby takes dedication and perseverance and education and support just like pregnancy and raising a family, but our society encourages us to go "fuck it, to much effort " "let someone els do it"