Low Income Parents are Worse Parents?

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/07/2012

Well, my husband works night shift. There are not many places that have night shift here. I am not talking one or two of them. I am talking 5-7 of them... I highly doubt that many at one Daycare work nights, when it is not a common shift here, especially in the area they live. There is nothing at that time of night for work. They do not have vehicles. Anything is possible but not being new to the area, I can tell who is who fairly well...



ETA:

If the government actually did what they were suppose to do, more people would be forced to find work. More of them would be forced to finish their high school and perhaps go further. No one is telling them they can. Our government will pay for all of it but they do not devulge this information to anyone unless they ask. Why would they ask if one, they do not know, or two, they can live freely? They are not all bad, some are lazy though, some are bad. Other's just don't know what is available to them...

Kelly - posted on 03/07/2012

Oh, okay, I see what you are saying now. Sorry, I think I misread that or something.



In the US, the people actually "abusing" our system, are usually criminal. They DO know better, they just don't do better because it is easier not to. In cases where they don't know better, the have no desire to learn better. But this is less than 10% of our assistance recipients. The majority want out, they just can't get there....

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/07/2012

I disagree that these parents would be bad parents regardless. They don't know better right now. They have become the victim of the system. I am by no means saying it is any of their faults or all of their fault. They are only taking what "they" think is theirs. No one is telling them otherwise, right? It is ALL the governments fault for enabling them.



I believe if they were made to shape up or ship out, they would. They would do it well too. You would then see a change in their parenting skills.. Good is only followed with better, in these cases. ;)

Kelly - posted on 03/07/2012

Meme, could they work 3rd shift? I know a lot of our people use daycare to watch their child so that they can sleep, then they pick the kid up to spend a couple of hours with them before heading to work the night shift while the so watches the little one at night.



I'm in the US though. We have our abusers too, and they tend to be the vocal minority, but our system is set up in a way that makes it VERY difficult to get off of assistance, so you do end up with "lifers" but not because they don't want to do better, the system just prohibits it.....it sucks. I've heard the Canadian system is easier to get off of if you really want it.

Kelly - posted on 03/07/2012

I do have to agree with Janice that most of the people on welfare are NOT abusing the system. Some are, yes, and those people are usually also bad parents, but those are the people that would be bad parents whether they were poor or not.



The majority of people on welfare want to get off of welfare but lack the resources or knowledge to do so. Those people may also be sub par parents, but it is not for lack of trying. They are parenting the best they can, but the make mistakes due to the obstacles in their way and lack of resources to help them parent better. If we help these parents, we can impact their lives and the shape of our society in a positive way.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/07/2012

I am talking Canada, our economy is really not that bad off. I cannot speak for the US. I am not sure which one, if either, you live in. I am also speaking for the low-income area's I have lived in. Not ALL low-income people. Welfare recipients. I have lived in AB and NS. No difference from either province. From where I have lived.



Yes, the majority do abuse the system. Majority is anything over 50%. However, from what I know, here, these communities are well over the 80% mark for abusing the system. I would even say 90%, as I have before. Of course I am guesstimating from what I have seen, I haven't done any actual benchmarks and sensus' of the area's. So, I have to go with the term "majority", simply because it is definitely over 50%, thus being the majority.



Honeslty, I wish I could go for a day and video tape what I see EVERYDAY, that I drop my son off at Daycare. The Daycare is great and you forget what community you are in when you are inside. However, even the majority of parents dropping their kids off there are wearing their PJ's. You can't tell me they are going to work wearing PJ's? They are still wearing them when they pick their kids up, too... So, why are their kids in Daycare, using up a "free" paid for by the government spot? Mine isn't free, not even close but a part of my taxes is paying for those that abuse the right of using the system. It makes me mad because I was there. I did not abuse the system. I used it to better me!



Trust me, I am not flabergasting what I know and see. It may not be prevalant where you live, I am not sure. It is though, in the low-income communities here.



I also am not willing to accept many excuses. I was there, I lived it, it was very real for me. I had to get out. I had to for my daughter. It can be done. The government is there to help you to get out, if you make them... ;)



While I appreciate your understanding. I am tiring of having to repeat myself over and over again. I can only speak for my experience and where I have lived. I cannot generalize across the board, since I have not experienced life everywhere.

Janice - posted on 03/07/2012

Meme while I am for the most part on "your side" it is really bothering me that you keep saying "majority" on welfare abuse it. I definitely agree that there are those who abuse it however, I hardly believe that it is the majority. Especially right now in the current state of the economy.

Really there are those who do abuse the system - based on my experience maybe a 1/4 or less of those I know who get social services. It is those abusers who are the bad parents because their priorities are all messed up. They value drinking, drugs and/ or partying over everything - their home, their children whatever.

But the other 3/4 are not abusing the system. This includes a huge range of people - families that have fallen on hard times, single moms for any of a hundreds reasons. Some of them are actively trying to get on their feet while others really just dont have the will or energy to do more than go back and forth to work and accept the govt assistance that lets them survive. I think these people may sometimes make bad parenting choices, maybe due to depression or lack of education or whatever, but overall really want the best for their children.



Yes, scumbags, leaching off the system do tend to be "worse parents" but they do not make up the majority of low income families IMO.

Kelly - posted on 03/07/2012

"So Kelly, do low test scores indicate bad parenting, or bad school districts? Standardized testing test for one thing... your test taking ability... not your ability to parent! So no, it's not a direct link." --Mary Renee



Can you provide links and evidence to this fact? As I recall, the purpose of standardized testing is to test academic performance among peers, and academic performance IS impacted by parenting, as indicated in several of the references I posted.



Furthermore, low test scores do indicate school districts that are under-performing, and as evidenced by several links, studies, and articles, under-performing school districts are heavily influenced by poverty.



Schools that have low performance scores on standardized tests are the schools with the highest percentage of students living in poverty. Why? Because the parents in these districts are less involved, and less able to donate needed funds and materials to the school.



We do not just send poor kids to schools with worse teachers--it is the opposite, in fact--most states (in the US) offer teacher incentives to work in high poverty schools, so those teachers actually make more than those at the middle class schools. Unfortunately, this has no impact on test scores because the problem does not lie with the teachers, it lies with the parents.

Many low income parents simply CANNOT devote the amount of time and money middle class parents can. Even if they don't have a job and have time to donate, they don't have transportation to and from the school--they put their kids on a bus, and are confined to walking distance themselves. Think about how much you send to school--I know the average parent at J's school donates about $300/year to the PTA--Low income parents don't have that much, so the PTA doesn't have that much, and the PTA is responsible for funding most of the school's computers, library books, paper, pens, playground equipment, etc. Federal and State educational funds are at a bare minimum right now, a poverty level school performs poorly because of the poverty around it.

Sarah - posted on 03/07/2012

I believe Mary is a troll, just trying to stir up people's emotions. I suggest we all stop responding to her and hopefully she'll stop.

Jenni - posted on 03/07/2012

***MOD NOTICE***



Personal attacks have no place in a debate. Keep it nice and stick to the topic without attacking other posters or this thread will be locked.



DM Moderator,



Jenni =^;^=

Jodi - posted on 03/07/2012

Jodi, what if we took out the word "low income" and replaced it with something else, like "minorities". Then your statement would be: "Mary, I simply cannot help that the mothers with whom I've had contact and who are also minorities live up to a stereotype. I absolutely NEVER stated that all minority moms or families are bad parents" Do you honestly think that justifies your blatant classism?



Mary, it would still be a reflection of my personal experience with a specific group of people in my community, and, I would stand by it still as I'm still standing by my OP. Ignorance is bliss...so have at 'er.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/07/2012

Mary, I am going to give you something to chew on. Chew slowly....



Even though I no longer live in a low-income area and am no longer low-income. I still contirbute to the low-income society. My doctor and dentist ARE in the low-income area I lived for 5 years (Spryfield). I would never change from them, simply because I love them, I have been with them for 12 years. I associate with low-income people every single time I go to each of these places. The doctor there delivered my son. Again, I do not live in this area anymore. I drive 25mins to get there.



I also put my son in a Daycare that is IN a low-income area, just outside of where I use to live (Cowie Hill). I drive out of my way, every morning and evening, 25 mins to get there. I did this for several reasons.

1. I saught many Daycares and this one had the most friendliest, kindest and caring teachers. They treat my son exceptionally well there. They are ALL low-income people.

2. I knew that if I filled a spot in this Daycare, paying full price ($800/month) it would help ensure it stayed open for all the low-income parents that use it.

3. I believe in doing what I can for low-income communities. I know, there are some trying hard and need people to help fund the area's.



I give ALL my things from my home to a place called hand in hand in Spryfield. From clothing we don't use anymore to diapers to formula/baby food (when my boy stopped using it) to any and all housing products. This is a place where low-income people can go and get support with all the things I just listed that I contribute. I do this because I know how damn hard it is.



My husband's uncle is a bum. He lives on the streets. He frequents the mall that is attached to the building of which I work. This is where he goes to get warm and bum change. I see him, once to twice a week. He ALWAYS asks me for change, he does not recognize me until I remind him who I am, each and EVERY time. I sit down with him EVERY time. I do NOT give him money, I know he is only trying to support his drug habit. I do, however, always tell him we love him, care for him and hope he is doing well. I never ever just walk by him. While I am sitting with him people (rich people as you like to call them) are walking by us, looking at me, with that look of confusion and astonishment. Do I care? No, not at all. Now you tell me when the last time was YOU sat down with a bum and had a 5-10min talk with them!



The fact is, the majority of people on welfare abuse it! For whatever reason. I am not saying they want to but they do. Why? Well, some have given up, they do not understand they can suceed. Other's are comfortable, they do illegal things on the side to bring more money home. Some, feel so down (depressed) they have no idea how to get out. Other's are just user's and could careless about every getting off.



Then you have the small percentage that DO want to suceed. These are the ones I am contributing to when I donate or put my son in a Daycare in a low-income area.



I was one of these people. I had nothing, barely a pot to piss in. I know what it is like. I also know there IS a way out if you really want it. I am living proof of that. I used the system to get me to where I am today. It is what they are truly there for, not to be abused as so many do.



Anyhow, next time you feel the need to backlash any one person. I suggest you get the complete story and don't try to read between the lines. What I wrote was not intended to offend anyone. It was intended to show it is a huge concern. These people abusing the system are taking away precious resources for other low-income families that WANT to succeed. If there were less abusing the system, those that WANT to succeed would have a much better chance. They would have more available to them, including larger cheques each month.



So, was that a mouthful or what?? Full now?



Try harder next time with your spelling as well. I could barely comprehend your post earlier (you know the one you said I spelt allot wrong - when actually, it wasn't spelt wrong, it was the wrong defined word that I intended). ;)



Ah, and if you don't like this thread no one said you had to be on it. Walk away and do something more productive, if it is soooo absurd. ;)

**Jackie** - posted on 03/07/2012

Mary, you may be financially sound...but you're trashy as hell! :) Have a fabulous day! Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!

Mary Renee - posted on 03/07/2012

I'm not low income. My husband runs a small store. So no, none of you hit a nerve with me. I'm just amazed that you actually think this way in 2012 in the midst of the biggest recession since the great depression. And don't give yourselves so much credit that you think I give two cents what the lot of you clucking chickens think about me, you don't even know me and you're sitting there assuming I'm low-income because I disagree with you. You're just sitting on your computers saying "I think the poor people should try harder" as if no one has thought of that before. Bravo. Bravo. Here's your noble peace prize.



And for Meme's statement:



"You can think what you want about me but you have just proven what type of low-income person YOU are! ;) Thanks for the show and tell..."



Haha, Meme, you're welcome. Thanks again for the good laugh. Thanks for proving my point.



Jodi, what if we took out the word "low income" and replaced it with something else, like "minorities". Then your statement would be: "Mary, I simply cannot help that the mothers with whom I've had contact and who are also minorities live up to a stereotype. I absolutely NEVER stated that all minority moms or families are bad parents" Do you honestly think that justifies your blatant classism?



So Kelly, do low test scores indicate bad parenting, or bad school districts? Standardized testing test for one thing... your test taking ability... not your ability to parent! So no, it's not a direct link.



I'm out of here. This debate is absurd. My last words are this. Try getting out of bumf*ck country club and seeing the world every once in a while. Make sure to keep your eyes open. I know it's hard to see from way up there on your high horse's ass.

Teresa - posted on 03/07/2012

I was on medication. It almost killed me. I'm not saying depression is an excuse for mistreating your kids... there IS no excuse for mistreating your kids.



I thought we were discussing the connection between depression and low income there... not bad parenting. Sorry.

Jodi - posted on 03/07/2012

I should add, I understand you've tried medication, I'm talking about (in my comment about you won't know if it works if you don't try it) the women in my community. I just find it incredibly hard to believe that every one of my friends would be immune to the medication. I'm saying, I don't think the resources in my community are being taken advantage of AT ALL.

Jodi - posted on 03/07/2012

Teresa, I lived with a manic depressive father my entire life...treated. It never got better on medication. I fully understand your sentiment. BUT, there are behavioral therapies available (of which I partake for OCD, medication has NO effect on my OCD behavior.) that teach you to go against what your brain says and NOT yell, or scream or spank (or in my case, pick huge holes into my arms and legs). Besides, you won't know if medication works or not unless you try treatment. It works for many many people.



We are not victims of our emotions, and children shouldn't be either. We can't control how we feel, but we *can* control how we act. My father is a prime example, medication never worked on him, he was abusive, mean and cold-hearted. He then saw a behavioral specialist and was able to learn to NOT say hurtful things, to get up in the morning and feed us breakfast, to wash the dishes...no matter how sad he felt.

Teresa - posted on 03/07/2012

* I had never considered the possibility of depression (untreated anyways). I can see that being a huge issue, but again, in my area, the resources are available to have it treated...free.



Now this statement is one I have a problem w/.... my depression IS being 'treated' and guess what... it's not any better than it was this time last year before I started counseling and stuff. I can NOT take meds for it (tried... big disaster), so now what? There is no 'cure' for depression. It doesn't magically go away. It is a lifelong, constant battle for many, many people.



Add in chronic fatigue, constant headaches, extreme social anxiety, etc.... and well.... yeah. No comment.

Jodi - posted on 03/07/2012

Mary, I simply cannot help that the mothers with whom I've had contact and who are also low-income live up to a stereotype. I absolutely NEVER stated that all low-income moms or families are bad parents, in fact, I made it very clear in my OP that I am not saying that.



I think a nerve has been hit, and that is fine,if you feel offended, I sincerely apologize, the moms I know that I referenced I think are great people, they're in a crappy situation, I think they could try harder, but that's my opinion. I'm sure you're a fantabulous mother and always have been, again, I never said all low-income mothers or ANY low-income mothers are bad mothers. The ones that *I* know could try harder, since I know we have GREAT resources in my community to help them, I've been on them and used them, so I *know* they're there.



But, as Kelly has made abundantly clear, the statistics back my OP up. I'm very glad I started this thread, I have learned a lot, I had never considered the possibility of depression (untreated anyways). I can see that being a huge issue, but again, in my area, the resources are available to have it treated...free.

Kelly - posted on 03/07/2012

I am not irresponsible; I can provide actual statistics, I just didn't bother to take the time to look them up for an online debate forum because they are so widely accepted and I had a lot on my plate.



Here you go:

These link poverty to lower test scores and academic performance, which is an indicator of parental involvement. They also indicate lower educational levels, which can be a precursor to poverty.



http://www.cha.wa.gov/?q=files/Highstake...



http://www.uc.edu/EvaluationServices/com...



http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=vie...



These talk about stress factors associated with poverty that impact parenting.



http://www.cta.org/Professional-Developm...



http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20...



Impact of home environment on children.

http://www.headstartresourcecenter.org/H...



http://paa2004.princeton.edu/download.as...



http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/pa...



These two are VERY good reads, but only the abstract is available online, you have to order the study to read it in full.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2002-025...



http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/sea...



This is an metastudy based on the Millennium Cohort:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/j...



Articles:

http://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-and-...



There are a few to get started. I can assure you, there are more out there--thousands, in fact.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/07/2012

Mary - I am happy for you, really. However, personal attacks are not welcome!



I said I have lived there myself. It is your experience for what you understand. Not mine. Understood??



Next time you feel like attacking someone for what they HAVE experienced I suggest you keep it to yourself. Not once did I say I was referring to you or anyone else in this thread. Understand again??



Ummm, did I say I was rich? That is your perception. Last I checked I did not win the lottery.



You can think what you want about me but you have just proven what type of low-income person YOU are! ;) Thanks for the show and tell...



Go do some research. Go see what you come up with in regards to low-income parenting styles.



Then come back with some education.



Oh, sorry for the spelling, yep, I mistakenly used "allot" rather than "a lot". No biggie.



Again, I stand behind what I said. It is my experience. You did not live my life nor live where I lived. Maybe where you live it is all rainbows and butterflies. It was not where I lived. Just sayin.



I also still stay in contact with several people I made friends with while living in the low-income area's. So, no need for you to try and educate me on how to treat them. I think you need to educate yourself on manners.



ETA: It also depends on where you live. I am sure you didn't live in Spryfield or Farview or Uniack Square or the pubs or anywhere that I am speaking of... Good for you Mary. I was a stand up low-income person, I wasn't lazy or useless either. I took care of my kid exceptionally well. I struggled for sure. There were times I had no milk or money to wash our clothes. I have washed clothes in the tub before. I never said EVERYONE that is low-income is a bad parent, majority? YEP. I also worked my ASS off to help myself and my kid.



I also realize anything can make a person low-income. I also realize they can do anything to get off, if they truly want to and do their damnedest to do so. I am living proof of that. So, if I hit a nerve than go do something about it. Don't sit there and bitch at other's that have been there but worked the hardest than what they ever have in their lives to move forward!

Teresa - posted on 03/07/2012

My kids come from an extremely low income, single parent household... check out all the statistics/stereotypes on that. We're screwed.... Good thing my kids are AMAZING, huh? ;)

Mary Renee - posted on 03/07/2012

"So, I did not base this on stereotypes, I based my post on my own personal, very valid experiences with many low income mothers in my community. I am sorry that it seems to be a stereotype across the board, but my experiences are real, not based on what others have perceived and passed along." @ Jodi



Just because it's based on your own personal experience doesn't mean it's NOT a stereotype.



I've been on all sides of the spectrum. My parents divorced when I was 5 and I spent half the time with my dad, half the time with my mom. My dad was middle class. My mom lived pay check to pay check and still struggled to make ends meet which put us in debt a lot of the time. She is the most amazing mom ever, and it's not fair to her, or any one, to suggest that having a low income is indicative of parenting skills. Parenting skills are parenting skill. Some parents are high energy, and spend a lot of time with their kids and prioritize them. Some parents don't. Their income level has nothing to do with it and everyone has room for improvement across the board.



@Kelly



"Mary Renee, unfortunately, there ARE many proven links between the behavior described in the OP and a lower family income.

Yes, some "rich" people parent that way too, and some low income parents are very meticulous about their parenting and cleaning standards, but if you look at the group as a whole--the group of people who parent as described above--you will note that more than half are low income families. Likewise, if you look at low income families, you will note that more than half parent as described. "



It's very irresponsible to present this kind of information as fact with out having any resources to back it up. Can you provide links to these statistics? Or did you go around and interview everyone in the country, personally?



@Meme



"I mean come on, just think of the "hood". How many of those parents are awesome parents? How many are not so good? I would say it is something like 10/90 respectively... (my guess, that is, from the hoods I have lived in)"



Wow. Just... wow. Your dime store sociology degree provides some very funny entertainment. Thanks for that. Haven't had a good laugh in a long time. Maybe with your high education level you could look up how to spell "a lot" I know plenty of awesome parents from the "hood." Seems like you have a lot of hang ups about your need for assistance and so he feel the need to spit trash about everyone else there in order to distance yourself from them. It's alright. That's a common phenomenon amongst middle schoolers. They come from a low income group but they want to be in a rich group (rich means high income, since you had some confusion with that) so once they get to hang out with the rich kids they through their poor friends under the bus in order to distance themselves from their because they've been made to feel shame about it. It's a fact... as long as we're presenting our opinions and wild guesses with no research outside of our provincial anecdotes as fact in this debate... which we seem to be doing.



"But it is definitely unfair to blame being 'low income' for that. Blame being uneducated, blame their own bad parents for not teaching them better, but don't blame low income. Blame a lack of education maybe, but not the income level."



Deborah... thanks for providing a voice of a reason here. Couldn't have said it better myself. I can't believe that in this day in age people are so excited to look for justification for their dislike and judgement for "poor" people. I mean some debates on here are good, people can learn from them. "To vaccinate or not vaccinate" "to circumcise or not" "should we have longer maternity leave?" etc.



This is basically "Poor people are annoying, can someone back up my stereotype that they're lazy bad parents, too?" Give me a break. Classism is as bad as racism.



Divorce, cancer, medical problem, and just plain bad luck can happen to ANYBODY. It can happen to anyone on this board and before you know it you can find yourselves right on the other side of the "low income" fence. So think about that next time you're looking down your nose at someone at the grocery store with their kids looking bored. Puh-lease.



And by the way, someone that lets their kid play outside in the street while they sleep is a bad parent, but nothing about that says low income to me. Bad parent, lazy parent, but not low-income parent.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/07/2012

The fact is the majority of low-income families are less educated. Not all, the majority. Many receive assistance and do not wish to get off. Yep, there are those (like I was) that definitely struggle to get away from being low-income. They are the ones that are typically embarrassed to say they are on any type of assistance. Not something they like to let "out of the bag" so to speak. I know I was embarrassed, when I had to do things that caused me to have to voice that I was on assistance. I couldn't wait to get off. More than not though, try their damnedest to stay ON. They spit out babies after babies, to get more money.



However, it is common amongst low-income families to not properly parent their children. Some have given up and stop striving for better. Some, just don't know any better.



I lived in a few area's where it was the "norm" to give up and not try. Although, some of them grew up low-income and were never taught that there is a much bigger world out there.



Of course there are parents out there that are "rich" (whatever that means) that are not so good of parents, as well. It is just not a phenomenon as it is with low-income. Not everyone knows how to parent well, regardless of how much money they have.



I must say though, I take offense with the Daycare comments. I have used a Daycare for both of my children. I had to for my daughter as I was very low-income. I was going to school. Where else was I going to put her? She learnt allot from being at Daycare. I mean allot. They did not raise her though. I raised her. She did spend 40hours a week there but she spent 40-45 hours a week at home, awake, too. Assistance paid for Daycare, so it is not only a "rich" thing. Daycare prepared her for school as well. She didn't have any anxiety about going to school, actually, she knew most of the kids because they too were in her Daycare. My son is currently in Daycare and yep, I pay for it. I would pay for it even if I wasn't working. He absolutely LOVES it there. Every time I drop him off he is smiling with his hands out for the teacher, after he kisses Mommy. When my husband picks him up he is running around, with great big belly laughs coming from him. He is not deprived. He is also not being raised there. I am the one that feeds him his supper, baths him, cuddles him, puts him to bed at night, disciplines him, etc etc etc....



Remember everyone, before you jump on me. I was low income for many years. I am going by what I lived and experienced. I was not a bad parent. I was a very good parent. So, obviously I am not saying all low-income parents are bad. Just that the majority are. I highly doubt many, if any, here fall into the majority category, more like the minority. The one I fell into... ;)



I mean come on, just think of the "hood". How many of those parents are awesome parents? How many are not so good? I would say it is something like 10/90 respectively... (my guess, that is, from the hoods I have lived in)

Deborah - posted on 03/07/2012

It's not fair to stereotype low-income families. I'm low income and nothing like that goes on in my house. I spank, but it's VERY seldom, and always deserved by my children's behavior and never out of my anger. I raise my voice but I don't yell constantly.



I read to my children, I don't ignore them. My children Zombie Out on their favorite shows, (My son absolutely LOVES Blue's Clues) but that's not all he does. He also loves to play outside in the sandbox, chase his sister around the house, and use me as a track for his toy trucks.



We rarely eat out as a family (we can't afford it most of the time). My daughter and I eat at a fast food restaurant twice a month, (when I pick her up from her dad's house), and on those 'awkward timing' nights when it's easier to eat out rather than come home and have dinner at 9 or something late like that. We end up eating at McDonald's because we can feed the four of us with $10. I'd prefer to eat somewhere that serves healthier, unprocessed foods but it's not really possible when you're broke.



I'm low income. I'm on Medicaid and food stamps, My daughter goes to Head Start (A preschool program designed for low-income families). My fiance works full time and I work part-time.



My daughter is smart. She recognizes every letter in the alphabet, can spell her name, knows my whole name, her whole name, and a slew of other things a young child should know if she stays out of the house without a parent (Preschool).



Like your house, Jodi, mine is 'messy'. There is laundry that needs to be done, toys that are sprinkled around the house, beds unmade, and dirty (not moldy) dishes in the sink. I don't think of it as 'messy', I think of it as 'lived in'. They are chores that haven't been done yet, not 'neglected housework'.



I think its awful some parent is lazy enough, and stupid enough to allow their 3 year old outside, alone, while they SLEEP. Lock the freaking door, it's not hard... wow.



But it is definitely unfair to blame being 'low income' for that. Blame being uneducated, blame their own bad parents for not teaching them better, but don't blame low income. Blame a lack of education maybe, but not the income level. I"m two classes away from my Bachelor's degree in English, but I"m having Financial Aid problems. Even if I manage to get my degree by the end of this year, I bet I'll be in the same boat as a previous poster, 60-70 grand in debt and no jobs in my area for my expertise.



There is a link between low income families and the quality of parenting because those people cannot afford to buy things that rich people can afford. Preschool, daycare, educational toys... So yes, stupid breeds stupid because people are greedy.



I only recently managed to find a job simply because I refuse to work to send my kids to daycare. What's the point? Why should I waste my time and money just to pay someone else to raise my children? They're my kids, and my responsibility. I have a few friends who can't get a job because they can't afford childcare. That's why they're low-income. It doesn't make them bad parents, it makes them poor.



So I'll have to say No; This is not an 'across the board' phenomenon. There are probably just as many crappy 'rich' parents as there are poor, it's just that rich people can afford to make their children someone elses' responsibility.

Kelly - posted on 03/07/2012

Mary Renee, unfortunately, there ARE many proven links between the behavior described in the OP and a lower family income.

Yes, some "rich" people parent that way too, and some low income parents are very meticulous about their parenting and cleaning standards, but if you look at the group as a whole--the group of people who parent as described above--you will note that more than half are low income families. Likewise, if you look at low income families, you will note that more than half parent as described.



We KNOW that much is true. We know it not based on stereotypes, but on statistics. We would love to deny it, but in order to FIX the problem, we must acknowledge it. In order to find a solution, we must look at ALL factors in the lives of these parents, and unfortunately, more often than not, the common factor is a low income and the problems that come along with it.



Low income parents are stressed out, this makes it more difficult for them to parent with a high degree of patience, consistency and diligence. Knowing that helps us to know that finding ways to relieve stress from these parents can improve their parenting.



Low income parents have more physically exhausting jobs and come home late and exhausted, which makes it difficult for them to spend time working with their children on homework, school projects, and reading or playing educational games together. Knowing that helps us to develop strategies to give low income parents more time with their children.



I could go on for pages about the problems low income parents face that impact their parenting in negative ways.

Without looking at the CAUSE of bad parenting, we cannot fix it. That is not to say that the rich don't have their own parenting problems, but their problems and the causes of them are different and will not be fixed with the same solutions we find for the poor.

Janice - posted on 03/07/2012

FAFSA (Free Application for Federal Student Aid) does not issue loans. It is the form you fill out to determine how much assistance (grants and loans) you are eligible to receive. All students must fill out a FAFSA to receive an federal loan or grant and there is a cap amount for each semester no matter how "poor" you are or how expensive the school is.

Jodi - posted on 03/07/2012

Jeanette, I will ask him when he gets home from work, I'm pretty sure he got his loan through Fafsa like you, but I'm certainly not going to guarantee that!

Jodi - posted on 03/07/2012

Mary, I agree that what I posted seems to be a stereotype, but what I posted, if you read closely, is my own experience of low income mothers in my area. I specifically asked if this was a phenomenon across the board, or isolated to my community. Never once did I say, "These are the majority of low income mothers everywhere in America and beyond." Nope, I wouldn't know, so I couldn't make that assumption. I admit my title is misleading, but that's why we are given space to expand upon the original thought.



So, I did not base this on stereotypes, I based my post on my own personal, very valid experiences with many low income mothers in my community. I am sorry that it seems to be a stereotype across the board, but my experiences are real, not based on what others have perceived and passed along.

Janice - posted on 03/07/2012

Jeanette I totally feel the same

"One would think there should be more resources for the people who just need a little hand, but don't want to depend on the state for assistance, but there's not, at least in my case."



I finished my BS in 2011 and now I am 70K in debt and there is no jobs. And that is with getting a few thousand in scholarship. I have all my federal loans in deferment till May but I am already paying 220$ a month on the private loans I took out. When I did my student teaching it was a full time "job" but unpaid and there is no program to help with daycare cost, I had to take out a loan. In NY you can only get daycare assistance if you are a single parent. When I do go back to work - it will be overnights because I cant afford daycare and student loans. And on top of that I cant even get a job actually teaching (if there were any) because I need to get my masters to teach in NY - yup I need a masters degree to make 32K a year!



People always told me that going/finishing school would be the best way to improve our lives financially. Instead it has been the absolute worse.



So if you do decide to go back to school make 100% sure its a lucrative career with jobs, otherwise you are completely screwed!

Stifler's - posted on 03/07/2012

I'm pretty in between too and yeah I don't find that a lot of people make assumptions (to my face) about things like that.

**Jackie** - posted on 03/07/2012

I agree with you Mary. I am glad there are very few sterotypes about the middle class mom. I can live my life in peace! I was able to get a car seat and stroller. I ave recently lost 2 dress sizes and for Christmas my mom and dad got me a $100 gift card to a store for clothes. They wrote on the card that I must use it on myself. Duh, I spent every last cent of that card on my daughter.



I don't, nor have I ever taken any drugs and I don't plan to. It's a shame that some people think you are either rich or poor. You can't ever be an in between mom.

Jeannette - posted on 03/07/2012

@ Jodi, I definitely do want to go back to school and finish. The problem is that I applied for Fasfa (when I thought I was going back) and only got a small amount to help pay for the schooling. Also, I have about $20,000 in school loans that have been deferred for 2 years because I can't afford to pay them, so I can't really see adding on to them. I was actually told that they may garnish my wages to get that money. My husband does not think school is the best option, because of the loans I already have and I think that he thinks I'll go back to school and not finish and then I'll have even more. I was thinking about maybe trying to get a government job, so I have to look into that. I've heard about the daycare assistance, but when I (grudgingly) applied for government assistance, it seems we make too much for any type of help and the only reason we were able to stay on WIC was because our son is "underweight." (Which he was in the 5% for weight and 10% for height at his two year visit, but is the healthiest kid, best eater, we just walk and run a lot.) One would think there should be more resources for the people who just need a little hand, but don't want to depend on the state for assistance, but there's not, at least in my case. If you would happen to have any tips for what I can look up online about the loans your husband took out, that would be great. Thanks.

Mary Renee - posted on 03/06/2012

The entire original post is based on stereotypes. There is no direct link between the behaviors mentioned by the OP and having a low income. How about we turn this around...



Rich mothers have maids, which is why their house is clean.



The rich mothers who don't have maids, don't have to work, and therefore have more time to clean their homes. And they have bigger homes, with more storage space, instead of cramming a whole family into a one bedroom.



Rich mothers don't have to work, so they can start making a healthy homemade meal at 5pm, instead of getting off work, having the boss make you feel like shit for leaving on time (unless they have to rely on hour wage shift work, in which case who knows what their schedule is like) going to pick up the kids from daycare, MAYBE if they're is time, going to the grocery store or the bank or any of the other necessary errands one has to occasionally run during the week, and perhaps if they're single mothers, which could play into the low income bit, they can't cook up a fancy meals for the next two hours when their kids should be in bed by then. Yeah, shame on them for getting fruits and vegetables in a can (WHICH IS CHEAPER AND STILL NUTRITIOUS) so they can spend more time with their children instead of cooking.



Rich mothers pop pain pills, hire nannies and are out of touch with their children.



Rich mothers are bitches who walk around with a holier than thou attitude in order to feel fulfillment in their meaningless lives void of struggle.



Rich mothers never have to make tough decisions about whether they can afford a car seat or stroller.



Of corse... these are all stereotypes, only meant to prove a point. So, NO income level is not an indicator of parenting skills. And stereotypes are for lazy people who can't take the time to get to know the INDIVIDUAL and would rather group everyone together so they can cluck around the chicken coup like a bunch of hens with their heads cut off about "Did you see so and so letting their kid watch TELEVISION! Dear lord! Whatever will we do? What a terrible low income mother. Her boyfriend must be in jail for drugs and theft and knocking little old ladies down on the sidewalk" Haha

Jodi - posted on 03/06/2012

Jeannette, you seem to have a desire to go back to school, and I just wanted to let you know that there are federal student loans out there that will not only cover schooling, but also cover living expenses while you're in school. My husband qualified for one and it made all the difference for us, he was able to finish school without us tanking it financially (this was when we were on assistance). Just an idea to maybe look into if you're interested! Also, having done in-home daycare, many states have daycare assistance (they'll pay for the vast majority of your daycare costs) for parents who would like to work or go to school, but can't afford to do put their child in daycare.



Not saying you have to, just letting you know some options that are out there if you're interested.

Sal - posted on 03/06/2012

i think someone hit the nail squarely on the head earlier when they said look at why they are low income, familes that have poor education, long histories of welfare dependancy broken marriages criminal elements from multipul members and generations make it difficult for the next generation to even know what a good parent would do, even if they won lotto their parenting would be below par as it isn't the income that makes your parentng choices but the person, income might dictate what choices you have to choose from but you are making those choices

Jeannette - posted on 03/06/2012

Thanks Jackie. I do the best that I can to raise my son right. I know parents who make enough money to live well and don't spend very much time with their children. Poor parents can be bad parents, but so can richer parents. I also want to add that I am not depressed. Sure, of course I wish our situation would approve, however I just happy that I have a healthy son and that my husband is a hard worker. He works 12 hour days, then watches our son while I work weekends. If he has off during the week, I go into work. We don't have dates, rarely anytime together, but we are still happy.

**Jackie** - posted on 03/06/2012

Jeannette, I am clapping for you :) As I read through your first paragraph I got choked up. What a great mother you are.



I have posted a few pages back and I had given examples of 2 different families that live on my street. They are complete opposites. Of course, I don't see them behind closed doors so I don't know their eating habits or tv watching habits etc. I just see how careless one family is outside and then I see how picture perfect the other family is.



You should be proud of yourself for not being a stereotype :) Keep doing what you're doing. I pray that things do change for your family financially. Fingers crossed for the lottery!

Jeannette - posted on 03/06/2012

My husband and I are a low income family, making $35,000 this year. It is just us and are one son. The only state help we get is WIC. My son was breastfed for over a year, I made his baby food, He eats 3 fruits, 2 veggies a day. He does not drink juice, just water, milk or chocolate milk. My house isn't the cleanest, but it is nasty. I just don't like cleaning, but obviously I clean when needed. I don't buy things for myself. I have 2 pairs of jeans and 2 bras I rotate, so my son can have what he needs. My son only likes Elmo or Baby Einstein and watches 1 show a day and he loves to read.



I think it is a ridiculous assumption saying that low income families are bad parents. I only got pregnant after being with my boyfriend (now husband) for 4.5 years (and I was 23, gave birth at 24) and we got married before our son was born. I was in nursing school but I became pregnant in the third semester and had to drop, because we don't have family to help and my friends live a half hour plus away and that school did not have a daycare. I'm only able to work weekends, because my husband works from 5:30 AM to 5:30 PM (sometimes 6, 6:30) so I can't work on weeknight and we can't afford daycare. There are a lot of factors in my life right now. I did just start babysitting, but it may only last until this summer, if the lady moves this summer.



And unfortunately I don't see our situation changing anytime soon. I can't go back to college until at least our son is in school and my husband makes the most he can at the job he is at, but if he were to go somewhere new, he would start at less and that would not help us at all. We *could* have another child just to get assistance but we don't want another child until at least next year and we don't want to just have another child just to get assistance. I was told I was stupid for choosing to get married because then I wouldn't be able to get assistance and I said, "well I didn't get pregnant to get help." I like working and I liked the fact that I'd be the first person in my family to not only be married when having my first child and to also graduate from college. Number one came true and hopefully number two will come true, as well.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 03/06/2012

Barb, that is exactly what I am talking about. I too have seen exactly what you explained. I was one of the minority as well. I took good care of my child and I took good care of my apt. When I moved they gave me all of my damage deposit back and all the interest in had incurred over the 5 years. They had the place rented the next day. Some of the other tenants got kicked out and it took weeks to get the place back in ship shape to rent....



I have seen some terrible things too. You can't just go an report them though. You have to be very very careful. Many of these people are drug dealers. They are a part of the society you don't want to mess with. It is sad. So very sad but, you gotta think of your own before other's sometimes. They will figure out who ratted, trust me. The girl across the street from where I lived was murdered. She ratted. They don't screw around when you mess with them.

Bonnie - posted on 03/06/2012

If these things are going on you should report it. You may be saving a child's life.

Brittney - posted on 03/05/2012

My husband works at a grocery store and makes lower than poverty level which is $14,000 US dollars/year. I am a stay at home mom by choice (child care would take up any money I got anyway). I go out of my way to help my daughter, maybe we can't afford cars, cable, or cell phones, but we get what is necessary. We have gas to heat our house, water to drink, electricity to keep our lives modern (and the occasional space heater). I do not let my daughter watch television, instead we sit and read books together, we do have food stamps but I still buy extra cheap things: off brands instead of name brand barely any freezer or packaged food. I buy more fresh fruits and veggies than anything else. I never buy pop or chips or candy. I think that they just think low income parents cannot provide for their children. I spank my daughter if I need to (nothing else works). Otherwise I just avoid the problem, 'you have to wait until we pay for the apricot before you take a bite out of it.' kind of thing instead of 'PUT THAT DOWN!' I think the richer people don't spend all their time with their kids just like poor families. Each having their own reason...poor families are always at work so they don't get to see their kids until they get ready for bed. Richer families have meetings or something to go do and don't have as much time to spend with the kids. I'm not saying richer families are worse than low income. They are probably about the same.

Sarah - posted on 03/05/2012

I would agree to a point with this argument, but I think in general it is the reason why they are lower income. Lack of education, awareness, perhaps motivation can contribute to low income as well as parenting skills. I believe that people of higher income are generally more educated and therefore take more of an interest in learning parenting skills. Having said this, not every low income parent is bad and not every high income parent is good.

Barb - posted on 03/05/2012

Ummm I use to live low income co op with my baby daughter and my aunt use to live in one too. I have notice a lot of things I wish I hadn't really seen and hear of a lot bad things from my aunts co op. This kids were barley ever watch at my co op I was at ran wild and got in trouble. I think I only new 3 or 4 mom's there that watch there kids and took care of them. I had a neighbour who sat out on his porch waiting for his mom to finish up in the house if you know what I mean with her boyfriend. I have been to some of the house and look at how they care of them and when I moved out the owner said I was the best tentant he ever had, because I never did damage when I moved out and it was sparkling clean. I guess people don't normal do that. I noticed not much interaction with kids. Lots of them were inside a lot. I tried to get my baby to the park, out for walks, to swimming lessons and to see family and friends as much as possiable. I didn't really feel like I belong there and a lot of things I saw bothered me and made me sad. It's not a phenomeon it is happening all over in Ontario too. There are good moms there. Being a first time single mom seeing some the stuff that went on my me feel like an amazing mom pretty much all the time.

Carol - posted on 03/04/2012

Ouch! LMBO!

Rachael - posted on 03/03/2012

No in my experience it's not. The only thing I agree with you about is that I find that poor people (which I am) are more likely to spank their children than rich kids. That could be caused by a lot of different things. I know lots of low income moms who do a great job raising their kids. I know some like you are describing, but many more who do a decent job parenting all by themselves

Kristel - posted on 03/02/2012

I live in Central Cal with Snobish types... They just hire others to watch their kids so they don't have to, or put them some where else. Everything here is hire someone to do it if you don't have the time... My child and I may look crazy at the grocery store, but she is 2 and knows how to count to 13, her colors, numbers, and can recite the whole alphabet as well as read a few words. My daughter also knows how to help with house chores and I do spank on occassion but it's only when a time out doesn't work.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 02/27/2012

Jennifer thanks. They keep changing the terms and everything.



We're having an issue here in BC right now with the Liberal Government cutting funding for education and assitance with special needs students. So in some cases that means special ed too.

Jennifer - posted on 02/27/2012

Megan, I do know plenty of 'special ed' students who do just fine- I would also be one of them. Special ed has changed quite a bit since I was in school. It use to be for people like me- I have two learning disabilties, but otherwise am fine. Now 'special ed' is used to refer to kids who have worse issues.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 02/27/2012

Dear hubby/husband. Sometimes not as sweetly as I could . I told a lifeguard over the weekend that I would divorce him if it didn't mean leaving the country afterward. He'd been teasing me about using the rope swing at the deep end. So Sal, maybe Saturday he was actually that Damn shmuck who made me move.