Men and Abortion

JD - posted on 12/15/2012

I didn't read all of the post here, but I'm going to add on what I did in a different post. The difference is, with an abortion, there is no child left in need of being taken care of. There is no minor who could possibly be going without extra care that is deserved. Any child created should have the financial means from both parents, whether planned, unplanned, or unwanted. Yes, it is unfair that women have more control over the reproduction of the population, but that is how genetics made us and there is no need to make a child suffer because of it.

America3437 - posted on 12/11/2012

I feel the man should have the option to terminate their rights. If we as women demand equal rights then by all means let them be equal!

Fit2BMe - posted on 12/11/2012

I'm inclined to say that tax payers dollars are better served helping to raise a child than to support some of the people on the system that are abusing it and shouldn't be on it. Te system is there for a reason, I'm ok with it being used for that purpose.

Angela - posted on 12/11/2012

Except if the expectant mother has no job and no means of support then it's down to the taxpayer to support this child via the welfare benefits system.



And unfortunately the "putative" father may not be the actual biological father either. It happens.

Kylee - posted on 12/05/2012

I, like many women, am torn on this topis. but i think that im siding that men should have the option! if women do, why cant men? but, i dont agree wth abortion. so then again, i dont truely believe that either shld have the option. but since the law allows the woman too, they should also allow the man to.

Fit2BMe - posted on 12/03/2012

Very interesting. I'm inclined to think that I agree. I've wondered this before.

Talia - posted on 12/02/2012

After reading more of the posts and after what i had said earlier about men sign over their right so they can't come back later, I think the women should do that too.

Reading Sarahs and Laurens and a couple of others I do agree that its not far if some men want to be a dad and she has an abortion anyway. Signing over your rights should go both ways, if she doesn't want bubs and he does give it to him. I do know some guys that are not very good boyfriends/hubbys in-fact they suck, but when it comes to their kids they are fantastic.



Everyone deserves to have a say and choice...the paper work just makes things easier in the long run for men, woman and children.

Amy - posted on 11/26/2012

No, because what if they 'plan' this child and the man gets cold feet so to say 4-5 months in? How would it be fair to the mom then to just let him sever his rights, when she was expecting a situation of support added to hers? Plus you will open up a can of worms with every deadbeat alive claiming "I never wanted it" in court.

Mommalove - posted on 11/25/2012

i never really thought of it like that.

Yvonne - posted on 11/23/2012

Jodi - Actually you would be surprised...I personally know from volunteer work in a local clinic that this is some ladies form of birth control, as sad as it is, its true. And guess who pays for that service, yep the state.

Yvonne - posted on 11/23/2012

My opinion is that the woman should have the right to keep the child but the father should also have the right to say if he wants to be a father. The rate of single parent homes I'm sure wouldn't change because its already alarmingly high. I think it would actually make woman think more cautiously when it comes to sex because although it is a two way street in the end the responsibility most times falls on the woman. Men that want to be fathers are fathers to their children regardless of how they were conceived, how they feel about the mothers, and no matter what the cost to raise that child is. I think 20 weeks is fair amount of time to give the father to opt out and I would say the final paper would be notarized 2 weeks after birth, that way the mother can be prepared one way or the other and in the case of those with cold feet they have a slight window to step up to the plate and be the man we would hope they'd be but I truly think that its unfair for the world to determine that it's okay for a woman to not be ready for motherhood but to assume that all men are and if they aren't then they are automatically deadbeats...not all pregnancies happen because of unprotected sex.

Sarah - posted on 08/14/2012

This is a point of contention for me. I know that my great grandmother had to fight for the right to vote and the main reason women joined the workforce was war, that bothers me as I am, in this case a feminist. I believe in equal work for equal pay, and that women can do anything men can do, including pee standing up. Though I'm guessing it's much more messy! I could probably write my name in the snow, well, before I broke my hip! :)
I am, however, not a feminist when it comes to a man opening my door, letting me go first, or offering his hand to help me up the step. Nor am I a feminist when it comes to reproductive rights. I am pro-life AND pro-choice. I cannot understand how a woman's right to choose outweighs a man's right to his child. Or his right to religious freedom. I've had 2 unexpected pregnancies, in my defense, 9 years apart! Part of what made the decision easy, in both cases, was I waited to make sure he and I had common beliefs on reproduction before sleeping with anyone. The fathers of both children and I shared a Christian faith and did not believe in abortion. The father of the second and I agreed neither of us wanted any more children. I kept my oldest, adopted my nephew, and gave my third, sob, up for adoption with family friends.
Before I catch any grief about my black and white opinions, I know there are more than enough shades of gray to make me rethink my definitive stance. For instance, I knew a girl who found out she was pregnant with their second child, after realizing the father was a liar, a cheat, a con man, and going to prison. She chose to have an abortion knowing she couldn't raise another and that he was incapable literally (being in prison) and figuratively (obviously not a man anyone wants raising any child, let alone her own!) Another instance, if I became pregnant, again despite birth control, I don't know if I could physically carry another without endangering my ability to walk. Is do it, but I wouldn't judge someone in my situation for not doing the same. I do my best to not judge other's anyway, but that's beside my point. (I think I negated my point, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say...)
I guess, more than anything, I wish people would consider who their partner is and what they want and believe before they sleep together. As regulating that is outside the boundaries of our constitution, maybe Obama will do it? Just kidding... About the regulation! ;)

Kristi - posted on 08/14/2012

Lauren--

Thank you for clarifying your position on this matter. It is definitely a difficult topic. I think, at least I hope, most women do talk to their partner. I know a few too many don't. But, I think the main reason this remains a woman's right to choose boils down to the fact that the man may not stick around, even if he claims he will. There are no guarentees that he'll even pay child support if he does bail. It is not a black and white issue. There are too many grey areas to make laws for men's rights in this area. It would be nice if two people could come to a mutual decision but there are too many different people with too many different circumstances to always come together. : (

Lauren - posted on 08/14/2012

Kristi, I apologize for the confusion. I was reading through several topics that touched on men's rights, abortion, etc, yesterday, so I'm sure everything got muddled. Essentially, I think a man has a right to raise or not raise his child just as a woman does. If a woman doesn't want to raise a child and wants an abortion, I think the man should still be able to weigh in. I don't think a woman should be able to have an abortion when the father is willing to raise the child...or even if the father prefers adoption. It is a very difficult discussion because a woman has to carry the child, but I don't think it's right a woman should be able to make the decision without considering his opinion. By biology, I meant the woman HAS to carry it; the man cannot. But just because he cannot carry the baby shouldn't eliminate his rights to his child. I think it's incredibly sad when a man either wants to raise his child or is against abortion and prefers adoption, only to be told the woman will have an abortion and he can't do anything about it. To me, that's the same as watching someone take your child away to die, saying you have no choice in the matter (Hunger Games anyone?!?). Does that make more sense?

Sorry again for the confusion; I was a bit on my soapbox yesterday with some sad things I read, but hopefully that clears it up. I DO believe men have a right to participate in the decision of what happens to his child.

Kristi - posted on 08/13/2012

Lauren--

I'm not quite sure I understand what it is, exactly, that you are trying to say. One minute it sounds like you want to debate pro life and pro choice, including abortion vs. adoption. Then it sounds like you believe a woman should not be forced to keep a baby but you still think a man has a right to stop her. People talk about a man's rights and responsibilities all the time. There are a ton of threads discussing visitation, child support, custody, etc. Whether it be biology or a gift God gave us, there is always a choice. Yes, a baby is a separate individual...I don't think that is even part of this topic, nor do I think that we are disputing that. I seriously can't tell which side of the fence you're on or if you are even stuck in the middle. Maybe it is just me. But like I said, I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm sorry.

Lauren - posted on 08/13/2012

I haven't read through all these posts, and I'm glad, Sara, that you posted it because men's rights and responsibilities don't often get discussed heavily. I did want to comment on one thing...I noticed people say it's a woman's body, so it's her right to choose to abort or not. I know this could spark a great deal of debate and it gets into abortion also, but I have never agreed with that statement--pro-choice or pro-life. A baby grows inside a woman's body because that is genetics. That is not the baby's choice, the woman's choice or the man's choice. And just because it's INSIDE her doesn't mean it's not a completely different person.

As woman, we (basically) all say that a man shouldn't be able to tell us to have an abortion if we want to have a baby and either keep it or choose adoption. So how is it right that a man who might want to have his baby (which is a part of him) to either keep or choose adoption? I look at my kids and how much their dad loves them, and if I hadn't wanted to raise them and be their mom but he wanted them and agreed to raise them on his own, how is it my right to say no just because biology dictates the baby is carried inside me?

I understand there are people who will throw loopholes at this argument--rape, incest, young girls getting pregnant, etc., and those are the reasons debates surrounding pregnancy exist. And while I 100% agree no woman should be forced to keep a baby (rather than choose adoption) or abort, I don't think a father should have to sit on the sidelines and watch his baby be given away or killed through abortion when he wants to be a dad.

This is a hugely difficult topic to discuss--I know--but I hope people will at least consider that the discussion can go both ways and, if ever in the situation, consider how both parties feel. A baby is a baby--I don't feel biology should dictate how that life is treated...it's not the baby's fault!

Karla - posted on 08/08/2012

Jaime, probably so no one will garnish his wages for child support.

Jaime - posted on 08/08/2012

why would a guy who could walk away anyway go through the legal trouble of terminating his rights to the child?

Kristi - posted on 08/08/2012

In Nebraska, a man or a woman can sign over his/her rights but not his/her financial obligation, unless someone else will adopt the child assuming financial responsibility for that child. Kind of ass backwards but I guess it is the courts way of making men/women accountable to their children. If signing away your rights would get you out of child support there would not only more single parents but, more single parents who are unable to provide for their children. So it is a double edged sword.



That being said, I could only wish my piece of shit exhusband would have terminated his rights before 20 weeks! It sounds reasonable in theroey but a lot depends on the dynamics. I can't remember who said she is upfront with a man about what her beliefs are regarding an unplanned pregnancy and if he chooses to still engage in sexual congress (The Whole Nine Yards--Bruce Willis' character used that term--funny movie) then he will be accountable for his part as well. But how many women actually do that? So, I'm with the OPer...still undecided.



On the annoying COM site, if you think it's bad on your PC, you should try the mobile site! It is all I have access to right now and it is driving me nuts!

Mommalove - posted on 08/07/2012

i never really thought of it like that.

Talia - posted on 08/05/2012

Yes i think thats fair.. but also in saying that once they opt out, you stay out, cant come back when baby is 18 a good boy, and just a fantasitc young man and say you want to start being a father after all my hard work...What ever pal.
I think it should be a signed legal document so things stay that way and there is room for issues later on, as sometimes there are. Just like when you have an abortion you have to sign forms for legal reasons.

Kathy - posted on 08/04/2012

I have not read all the response yet (does that make me a naughty newbie? lol)

I have had a grand total of 2 sexual partners in my life.

With both of them I have been very clear that I would not have an abortions, if I became pregnant. I use birth control, or the man does, but they know going in that abortion is not on the table.

Given that - no, they do not get to walk away. I would go after them financially, even if I could not force them (nor would I want to force someone) to parent. You voted with your penis, you know?

I also think if a man is determined not to be a father, he should use condoms or get a vasectomy or abstain. I suppose he could trust the woman to use birth control - but they need to discuss it. Assuming someone is using BC is foolish.

On a legal note I think a man should be able to walk away, as a woman is able to walk away through abortion (as much as that is walking away).

Morally, I think it depends on the relationship dynamics.

I do think it is unfair to the child to be deprived a father figure and finances due to the whole mess.

I believe and teach my child that sex can result in pregnancy. There are things you can do to lower the chance, but little is fool proof. If you cannot handle that, or do not agree with how your partner would react to an unexpected and possibly unwanted pregnancy, maybe that person is not for you.

**Jackie** - posted on 08/04/2012

I think it's fair. I would rather my baby's dad leave and be out of the picture than have a dead beat one that's in and out of their life and has little or no desire to be there.

Then again, I guess I can't guarantee that's how I would feel because my baby's dad is my husband. I'm pretty sure that's how I would feel though.

But yes if a woman can choose to abort, than a father should be able to say "deuces!"

Sally - posted on 08/04/2012

Sounds fair to me. If she can kill his child without giving him any say in the matter, he should be able to walk away from her child the same way.

Shelly - posted on 07/24/2012

I think as long as abortion is legal. Men should be able to decide that up to the point a women would be able to get an abortion.

Karla - posted on 07/19/2012

Laura, It's not just this thread, like I said, it's this god forsaken site. COM is screwed again; I don't even know if the people who own it know how bad it's gotten this week - or these last couple weeks. Certainly not visitor friendly.

Laura Zoey - posted on 07/19/2012

If I hit refresh it keeps going back and forth sometimes showing the last 8 posts sometimes not. Weird. And annoying. Maybe we just need this thread locked since its just being a turd

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/19/2012

You got it Karla!

Laura Zoey - posted on 07/19/2012

If his rights are terminated then how would he still need to pay?
Isn't that the essence of rights?

Karla - posted on 07/19/2012

Just posting to see if anyone posted because that seems to be the only method that works on the god forsaken site.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/19/2012

Karla, I said it on the other one too, but many of us have to post in order for the other posts to show up. Fucking annoying as hell, and usually I just delete what I did. I left my last one.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 07/19/2012

1

Karla - posted on 07/19/2012

My notifications say "johnyiyi just posted to the thread "Men and Abortion". Click here to see it. - 3 hours ago" 2 times but nothing shows up here. Is this a glitch or did someone change their mind and delete it?

Kimberly - posted on 07/15/2012

At least in the state where I live (Illinois) a man can terminate his rights, but it doesn't absolve him of his financial responsibilities unless someone else adopts his child.

Beth - posted on 07/15/2012

As far as I know, a man can terminate his parental rights at any point in the baby's life. But I could be wrong.

Mary - posted on 07/14/2012

"So what do you think? If men could walk away in the first 20 weeks gestation, and did, would you judge them as you do women who have chosen to abort?"

This question has been bugging me all day, niggling away at the corners of my mind.

First of all, it implies that there is automatically judgement of women who chose to abort. We all know that there are those who do, but many of us truly don't.

Secondly, the comparison between a man making a conscious choice to not be a father ahead of time (meaning prior to viability and the child's birth) is neither accurate or fair. When you really break it down, this is no different than a woman giving her baby up for adoption at birth. Whatever her motives, and no matter how difficult it is, she is essentially "walking away" from her rights and responsibilities to that child. She is signing over her parenthood to another. Society is usually unanimous in it's approval (and often praise) of this choice.

For me, a man who would chose to legally sign off on his role as a child's father prior to the 20 week mark is essentially doing the same thing. He too is saying that he is either incapable or unwilling to be a parent to this child, and is handing over both the rights and obligations of parenthood to someone who wants to raise him/her. If the mother, knowing well in advance that he will not be involved, chooses to both continue the pregnancy and then keep the baby, well...that's her right and her choice.

Faulting a man who is being honest about his feelings, situation, needs, wants and desires in this scenario is really no different than criticizing those women/couples who put their baby up for adoption. I realize it's a hard concept to wrap one's head around; historically, society has pretty much demanded that a man be held accountable for the mother's choice to keep and raise her baby. I concede it's a pretty radical concept to suggest that man be given an equal opportunity to terminate his role as a father rather than having that decision made for him by the woman. (Again, I reiterate that I am only speaking to situations where a man legally notifies and signs off on his "rights" in a specific time frame, so that a woman can than make a fully informed choice about what she herself wants to do).

MeMe---(Past And Present) - posted on 07/14/2012

LOL - yes Karla. I realized I messed up my math once I laid down. I couldn't bring myself to come and fix it. Thanks for doing it for me. ;).



I dunno, for me 1:155 is still pretty high. Although, you're right. This thread is not about abortion. My intention was to show it does occur and I guarantee it occurs much more, than some like to think. Especially, in places where there are higher abortion rates, such as the States.

Karla - posted on 07/14/2012

100:186,400 = 1:186.4



How the heck do you ratio the number per month (100) with the total for the year (186,400)?

with your numbers

100:186,400 is actually 1:1864



But using both annual numbers:



1200:186,400 = 1:155



That actually gives you a little more compelling number, but...

This shows exactly the same thing my percentage shows. It's still a small number.



Oh, and we can agree on "it really doesn't matter!" ;-)

rest well.

MeMe---(Past And Present) - posted on 07/14/2012

Karla---100 teen girls a month is 1200 per year - still less than 1% of the total 186,400. Again agreeing with Jodi's point:



Rather than throwing this into a percent, look at it as a ratio.



100:186,400 = 1:186.4



Now in my opinion 1 in every 186.4 women, is a fairly big number. This number would deter or promote people for many things.



If you had a chance of 1 in 186, to have a baby that would be brain damaged, I bet many more parents would be less likely to try.



If you had a chance of 1 in 186 to fall to your death while sky diving, you would probably think more than twice.



If you had the chance of 1 in 186 to win the jackpot of a $100 000 000 lottery that cost you $100 to play, I think many people would play.



Also, I provided much bigger numbers for the States. Which, actually, would show a very high percentage of them being multiple abortions.



As for your question, I honestly do not look down or judge women that have had abortions. I may not agree with them but I am not going to dislike them for it. So, no. I would not judge a man in the same light (that some other women do, to those that have aborted), if this was truly a non-committed relationship and he was truly unable to appropriately be a Dad.



ETA:

Ah, I see now that the link I provided for the US and World, is not what I thought it read. I thought it read abortionon.org not abortionno.org. I know there are actual stats out there, I have used them in abortion debates. However, I am not feeling well and I am going to go with, "it really doesn't matter". ;)

Karla - posted on 07/14/2012

You know though, bringing up opinions on abortion does factor into the view on men and their accountability.



If in fact men could disown their offspring, would they be judged and ostracized as women who have had abortions are now? Most women who have told me of their abortion experience will not divulge that information to anyone but a trusted friend.



So what do you think? If men could walk away in the first 20 weeks gestation, and did, would you judge them as you do women who have chosen to abort?

Karla - posted on 07/14/2012

Meme:



100 teen girls a month is 1200 per year - still less than 1% of the total 186,400. Again agreeing with Jodi's point:



“Find me the statistics that tell us what percentage of women have abortions time an time again. I think you will find that it is so minor it is not even worth the effort. “



Meme:

I'm reluctant to trust your numbers which come from

"The Center for Bio-Ethical Reform" which states, "CBR condemns all abortion related violence and will not associate with groups or individuals who fail to condemn such violence."



They have a clear agenda, and I feel certain that their agenda affects their stats and stated "estimates."

MeMe---(Past And Present) - posted on 07/14/2012

Karla---I also agree with Jodi’s point that this is not an abortion debate, but rather a father’s rights and responsibilities debate.



I agree with this. I was just giving stats, like they were asked for.



So, now calculate it for the World and the States...



WORLDWIDE



Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000



Where abortions occur:

83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries.



UNITED STATES



Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700



http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fast...



ETA:

Karla---Using Meme's numbers: With 100 teenage girls aborting for the 2nd time, out of 186,400 total abortions, the percentage is so small (a fraction of a percent,) that I'm having trouble calculating it.



Also, the facts I gave were 100 teen girls in a month. Not in a year. ;)



So, unless you are going to actually figure the stats I gave, correctly. Nope, I did not prove Jodi, right. It occurs a helluva lot more than one likes to think.

Karla - posted on 07/14/2012

In 2005 in England and Wales there were 186,400 abortions.

Using Meme's numbers: With 100 teenage girls aborting for the 2nd time, out of 186,400 total abortions, the percentage is so small (a fraction of a percent,) that I'm having trouble calculating it.

1 had six abortions... again a minute percentage and an obvious problem.

90 on their third -- still a minute percentage.

16,474 on their second, equals 8% (This was the largest number of repeat abortions during 2005 in England and Wales.)



Jodi said, “Find me the statistics that tell us what percentage of women have abortions time an time again. I think you will find that it is so minor it is not even worth the effort. “



I think Meme proved Jodi right.



I also agree with Jodi’s point that this is not an abortion debate, but rather a father’s rights and responsibilities debate.



ETA - fixed typo.

Jodi - posted on 07/14/2012

Oh, I'm not denying it happens, I am denying that MOST women or even very many have multiple numbers of abortions and that women who have abortions aren't being held accountable. For the majority of women, the abortion IS the consequence and accountability. It bothers me that people think women enter into such a decision lightly. Maybe SOME women do, but the majority do not, and it is dismissive to suggest that this is the case.

MeMe---(Past And Present) - posted on 07/14/2012

Multiple abortions, in the UK.



Statistics show that last year 1,300 women had at least their fifth abortion.



Almost 950 of those having a termination had already had four previously. Almost 200

had already had five, 110 had had six before and 54, like Angela, seven or more.

The ease with which such women are undergoing repeat abortions has led campaigners to argue that terminations are being approved all too readily - given for social reasons rather than because a pregnancy might pose a significant risk to a mother's health or well-being.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/articl...



Shocking new figures show more than 100 teenage girls a month in Britain have an abortion for a second time.

Some girls are on their third pregnancy termination before the age of 18, with at least one girl having had six abortions.

Statistics on multiple abortions at NHS hospitals and clinics obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, showed in 2005, 1,316 girls under the age of 18 had a second abortion while 90 were on their third.

Among those aged 18 to 24-years in England and Wales, 16,474 had a second abortion while 3,060 were on their third.

Among the over 30s, 482 women had their fifth abortion in 2005, 92 were on their sixth and 29 were admitted for their seventh abortion.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/articl...



It does happen Jodi, just sayin. ;)



ETA:

Likelihood of abortion:

An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.



http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fast...

Jodi - posted on 07/14/2012

Anastacia, this is not a debate about whether you AGREE with abortion or not. Do you think I am disputing your statistics because I am pro-abortion (BTW people aren't pro-abortion, they are pro-choice)? No, I dispute them because they are biased reports, and actually don't provide ANY indication that women go back time and again to have abortions. Whether you would choose to have an abortion or not is irrelevant.

If you want to try and debate with statistics and try to give evidence that a LOT of women have multiple abortions, then by all means, gather your information from a non-biased site, because the ones you provided have a vested interest in manipulating statistics to promote their cause. Either that, or get the raw data which shows how MANY women had 2 abortions, how many women had 3 abortions, and so on, and also at what age. Right now, reports simply stating that a certain percentage of women have had more than one abortion is NOT providing any evidence for the case that a LOT of women go back for abortions time and time again and don't consider it a consequence or take it lightly.

Jodi - posted on 07/14/2012

Someone would have to prove that she could not have known. It would be up to the law to prove it, not the woman to prove that she didn't.

Vegemite - posted on 07/13/2012

Jodi while that could be true it's rare then for it to happen in a case where this supposed law would apply would be rarer. Then a woman would have to prove she didn't know ie med records. Even to go to the dentist, drs, by certain meds from the chemist we are asked if we could be pregnant.
I don't think it would be as easy for a woman to prove she genuinely didn't know about her pregnancy.

Anastacia - posted on 07/13/2012

Of course they are pro life sites. You think that pro aborts are going to tell you anything? Especially things that make abortion look like it may not be such a good idea. No because it is mostly about money. I feel for these women because they feel like this is the only option.

My husband had his first baby aborted, even though he wanted to keep it, she didn't. I was pregnant with our first pregnancy at 19. It is scary I didn't know if he wanted the baby or where our relationship would go from there. Abortion was never one of the choices I gave to myself. It made it a lot eaiser to face my responsibilty and come to terms with the baby. We lost th first baby which was very hard. We now have 3 girls, and we are married and I am now 25. My husband never met his father and doesn't even know his name because his mother has a closet of skeletons. He has no desire to ever meet him.

Things worked out for us but I sm aware that it doesn't always. I always knew that if i got preggnant from a one night stand i wouldnt chase them down for something they dont want. I wouldn't care about the money. It my choice to put myself in that situation. So I 100% would give him that out. I think they deserve that choice.

Jodi - posted on 07/13/2012

"It would be hard for a woman to lie about or hide a pregnancy. Even if she could hide it until 5 months, what is she going to say when 4 months later a full term baby is born. Hmmm lie outed."

Not necessarily. There are plenty of cases where women don't know they are pregnant until very late in the pregnancy or even until they are in labour. It is perfectly feasible.