Mind Over Matter when dealing with Depression and Anxiety

Liz - posted on 10/21/2010

Sharon I would have to disagree on some of what you said. Xanax is very addictive as well as Paxil, Prozac and many more that are prescribed and used unnecessarily. I see more often then not people getting worse on all these drugs BUT it is the right answer for some.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antidepress...
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/...
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Psychiatry/D...

Rosie - posted on 10/21/2010

i think i may understand what you are saying kimberly, however you are going about it in a condescending rude, judgemental way. maybe that's why everybody is up in arms about your statements. makes it seem like you are being rude, judemental and condescending to them. which is pretty shitty!

Erin - posted on 10/21/2010

Well hasn't this just turned into a lovely little bitchfest.

I'm locking this thread.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

There's a saying, something like, Never argue with a crazy person because people watching might not be able to tell the difference. So on that note. I'm out.
I am changing the original post over to DRUGS ARE GOOD MMKAY.

And I'm not trying to say that I am better than you or anything, but I am. MUAAAHAAAHAAA

Carry on! Thanks for playing!

Have a beautiful sun shiny day!

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"I did scan and get the gist of the posts."



You got the gist of jack squat. Read actual posts before submitting crazy feed back.



"What a crappy friend she has in you to judge her so harshly. You offer no evidence that her xanax is an addiction, beyond your own opinion."



Her opinion that she has an addiction- not mine. She thanks me all of the time for helping her and taking the time to find alternative treatments for her. What a crappy person in general to push drugs on people without trying to look for other ways to manage their lives. What a crappy person to say that she should come on here and listen to your stories and get on your drugs and take your advice on anything. Sad sad sad.



Intrusive, obsessive, irrational feelings go hand in hand with a chemical imbalance. I type positive things and all you see a big middle finger. There is a communication break down that cannot be over come here.

No minds no matter.

Sharon - posted on 10/21/2010

I can't even begin to read 10 pages of this.

I did scan and get the gist of the posts.
Kim J seems to think everyone has mind over matter power (if you don't mind, it don't matter) for psychiatric issues. Including & maybe especially - panic attacks. You're wrong. I've had them. I've done the positive thought thing and it works. And then.... there was the time... the kids and I were singing in the car, having a grand old time, life was good, no big worries when I suddenly couldn't breathe. I was coming up on a light and I saw it but I didn't - I couldn't breathe. I felt like my heart was going to explode through my chest. My oldest was sitting next to me and noticed almost immediately. I nearly crashed the truck. I scared all three kids.

After an emergency visit to the doctor, I was informed that was a panic attack. I felt lousy and wretched for the next two days with much milder attacks hitting me periodically. I would have loved to have a drug to kick me out of that. I was completely unable to function.

Some people get them much worse than I did that one time and some get milder forms that hit them repeatedly. While not as debilitating as the stronger forms - they suck the life and energy out of you. They can drag you down into the bowels of hell, creating sleeplessness and eventually full on depression.

You are full on 100% opinion. I saw no clinical observations, no medical studies presented in full, just your little testimony about your one on experience.

Personal experience counts for a lot, for you. In a group - where 80 - 90% of the women offer like anecdotal evidence to the contrary - then you're wrong. It is true for you but NOT for the general population or group.

I feel sorry for your friend. What a crappy friend she has in you to judge her so harshly. You offer no evidence that her xanax is an addiction, beyond your own opinion. PS. drugs that treat a disorder are NOT precisely an addiction any more than diabetics are addicted to insulin.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

Oy vey, I agree, if a person kills themselves over a panic attack- they had a much deeper issue festering. You're just fighting to fight now. I stepped away -mentally-a long time ago. I think you're trying to bully me into saying something mean- but i just simply won't do it. I can't follow you off the deep end.



I can't even agree with you- without a fight. It's a joke now and I really don't have it in me - it's exhausting. The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again expecting different results- I'd better stop now before I need to get a referral from you chicks. I joke, I joke.



Gotta go practice my breathing and dig around to see if I have an old left over Lexapro somewhere. Nah, I'll think happy thoughts.



Keep on tasting the rainbow fruit flavah,



The Skittles



P.S. This thread was about psychiatry not psychics- for those of you claiming to read my mind.

Jodi - posted on 10/21/2010

"So by your logic- you should stay on the side of the fence on which you have the expertise. Then it's no longer a debate- it's a support group! I do (did) expect research from you." My point was not that you *should not* bring the issue up, my point was that you went in not having a clue...any clue...whatsoever...My point is, that without personal experiences from millions of women (and men) exactly like us...there would be no research. So our experiences count for a whole hell of a lot...whether we've been a part of a study or not, but you can't see that our experiences are just as important and legitimate as the experiences of the men and women who *did* participate in studies, possibly more so, we're the unheard masses who could turn the table. To discredit our experiences as invalid to the debate simply because a researcher didn't write down our stories, our reactions or our challenges is just silly. As for the tumor comment: "If a doctor thinks I have a brain tumor he better damn well prove it to me with a series of conclusive tests. And i will get a second and third opinion before treatment. That CAN be proven." I hope you never get a brain tumor for many reasons, but sometimes a person simply does not have time for a second or a third opinion, the same goes for depression, if a person has attempted suicide and waits to get second and third opinions, in the time they are waiting, they could kill themselves successfully trying techniques that they mentally blocked from using. The medication can save their lives, proven chemical imbalance or not, just like a tumor can press against sensitive brain tissue and cause paralysis, including the lungs and a person can die before a second or third opinion can be sought out.

~Jennifer - posted on 10/21/2010

...Sorry, Skittles...I'm not on meds.
I'm breathing.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

I likey!

Love, Skittles

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

That was special just for you :)

Take a pill!

~Jennifer - posted on 10/21/2010

I think I'm just going to refer to you as ".Skittles" for the rest of this convo....hope you don't mind

~Jennifer - posted on 10/21/2010

....I thought a rainbow would smell better than that...

(FYI, yours DOES stink)
=)

C. - posted on 10/21/2010

How can I prove to you that they do blood tests for a chemical imbalance??? I do not have my brother's medical records, and even if I did, I would not show them to you. That is my only physical proof at the moment. I haven't googled it in quite a while, so I doubt I can find the same sites as before. How else do you expect me to prove something like a BLOOD TEST????

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

You're welcome Jenn. I just farted a rainbow in your direction. :)

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"Maybe that's proof right there that she NEEDS a doctor LMAO :) I kid, I kid.."

So I can fit in...no thanks. I like my rainbow fart world. :)

~Jennifer - posted on 10/21/2010

Actually, no - I research every doctor my family sees - education, years in practice, patient reviews, board review status, and any and all actions against them. We see far too many doctors (for my son) for me to be lax in my research,.......but thanks for caring in your condescending little way.
;)

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

Doctors CAN prove that you have a chemical imbalance.. They do a series of blood tests!!!!

Prove it.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"So, with all of the available information you can find online about a particular doctor, you chose a quack?"

It was years and years ago and in a tad bit of a rush- but alas, sweet Jenn, we aren't debating healthcare providers. Just the medication. But you can start that convo if you want. I think you've had some experience with quacks.

C. - posted on 10/21/2010

"So, with all of the available information you can find online about a particular doctor, you chose a quack?"

Maybe that's proof right there that she NEEDS a doctor LMAO :) I kid, I kid..

~Jennifer - posted on 10/21/2010

So, with all of the available information you can find online about a particular doctor, you chose a quack?

That's all I'm saying.

Don't complain about your own lack of research in choosing a healthcare provider, and then complain about the one you chose.
Pretty simple.

C. - posted on 10/21/2010

Ok Kimberly.. I haven't read all the posts on here, so maybe I missed something.. Doctors CAN prove that you have a chemical imbalance.. They do a series of blood tests!!!!

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"...probably should have researched some info on your quack doctor before you made the appointment and wasted your co-pay money.
=)

Your healthcare, your decision on who to see.....ya know?"

My measly co-pay was worth this 'debate" haha
And outing a quack.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"Regardless of whether you were misdiagnosed, you know what your body feels like on a normal basis and what you felt like right before whatever attack it is that you had. If you have another attack, well there you have it! The meds didn't work and you WERE misdiagnosed."

Laughing...If I had another attack then I guess I would ask him for a different combo!!!

~Jennifer - posted on 10/21/2010

...probably should have researched some info on your quack doctor before you made the appointment and wasted your co-pay money.
=)

Your healthcare, your decision on who to see.....ya know?

Kate CP - posted on 10/21/2010

That link to Harvard magazine was in relation to long-term use of Prozac NOT taking it for a week and seeing how you feel.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"....maybe you should have gotten a second opinion before starting meds - if you feel that strongly about them, that is...."

I tore up the prescription. I knew he was a quack.

C. - posted on 10/21/2010

Regardless of whether you were misdiagnosed, you know what your body feels like on a normal basis and what you felt like right before whatever attack it is that you had. If you have another attack, well there you have it! The meds didn't work and you WERE misdiagnosed.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"Oh, Ok.. Now that I know what you mean *rolls eyes*.. So if a doctor thinks you have a brain tumor, are you just not going to go through treatments??"

If a doctor thinks I have a brain tumor he better damn well prove it to me with a series of conclusive tests. And i will get a second and third opinion before treatment. That CAN be proven.

Kate CP - posted on 10/21/2010

When Prozac is taken by a person who doesn't need the medication it often has the OPPOSITE affect on them.

~Jennifer - posted on 10/21/2010

....maybe you should have gotten a second opinion before starting meds - if you feel that strongly about them, that is....

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"Also, if you ended up taking Prozac for a few days and it did nothing for you it wouldn't have done any permanent damage. It's not like it's meth or chemotherapy. You take a few pills and if it doesn't affect you the way it's supposed to YOU STOP TAKING THEM. Then it's over. You don't keel over dead or go schizophrenic because you took Prozac for five days!"

How in the hell would I know that it wasn't doing anything for me when I was MISDIAGNOSED? I would have thought I felt pretty good. I would have thought it fixed me.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2000/05/the-d...

C. - posted on 10/21/2010

"doctor prescribing me Prozac for what I believe to have been a asthma attack. I thought I was having a heart attack and could not breath"

Kimberly, I'm so confused on how someone could mistake having an asthma attack or a heart attack IF it's a panic attack???

"This is what I am getting at- doctors make mistakes and misdiagnose"

Oh, Ok.. Now that I know what you mean *rolls eyes*.. So if a doctor thinks you have a brain tumor, are you just not going to go through treatments??

Look, doctors misdiagnose.. THEY'RE HUMAN. Humans make mistakes. If you want a perfect doctor, well tough luck.. You're just not going to find one. Perfect doctors don't exist in real life.. Heck, they hardly exist in movies! So would you rather take the meds JUST IN CASE or second guess your doctor, only to find out much, much later that they were right and whatever you have can't be reversed b/c it's TOO late??

"But I am talking about that very first panic attack a person has. Their doctor should try talking to them about breathing techniques first and see if that can help"

I already mentioned that I am not on meds for either my depression or panic attacks. I actually have a dr. appointment soon and I am going to ask for some, though.

ANYWAY.. My very first panic attack, someone was trying to calm me down before it turned into a full blown attack. I was just starting to hyperventilate at first and a friend was trying to calm me down.. Didn't work at all. It does not work for most people. And my panic attacks aren't even as bad as some of these other ladies were saying.. So I can only imagine that if it didn't work for mine, it's not going to work for theirs.

Kimberly, you are clearly missing all of our points. And right now, I'm too tired to try to put everything in 'lame man's' term.. For lack of a better phrase at the moment.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"Lady, the only reason I'm angry right now is because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall."

Ditto.

Kate CP - posted on 10/21/2010

*bangs head on desk*

Kate CP - posted on 10/21/2010

Lady, the only reason I'm angry right now is because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I am a happy and well adjusted person who can cope with daily life and stress because I am medicated AND I have developed coping mechanisms. And again, you're not seeing what I'm writing. Your stance FURTHERS the stigma that medication for mental disorders is BAD.

Also, if you ended up taking Prozac for a few days and it did nothing for you it wouldn't have done any permanent damage. It's not like it's meth or chemotherapy. You take a few pills and if it doesn't affect you the way it's supposed to YOU STOP TAKING THEM. Then it's over. You don't keel over dead or go schizophrenic because you took Prozac for five days!

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"NO ONE should feel like less of a person or a failure because they __________ or chose to _________."

I agree with that. And can apply to to almost any situation.

No one is making you feel like a failure. It is in your nature to always feel attacked and invalidated. Not the case here. People do what they have to do. Especially in desperate situations. I would never fault anyone for that. I just have a different way that I approach things and drugs. But that is just me. It's my nature. We're not all the same.

Medication is not bad but it is over used and abused as well as being dispensed without getting to the root of the problem. And as I keep mentioning- the mistaking asthma for anxiety and prescribing Prozac could have been very damaging.

Joy - posted on 10/21/2010

I agree that some doctors do jump the gun when prescribing meds. I went to a psychiatrist once and after only 5 minutes of talking to me he said I had ADD and I left his office with a prescription for Ritalin. I tried one pill, felt like I had done an eight ball of cocaine and gave the rest of the pills to my ex husband, who actually DOES have ADD. He takes 120 mg a day of ritalin and it levels him out, calms him down. However, sometimes an anti-depressant is needed FIRST, before any other alternatives, because sometimes the depression or whatever issue is going on is too severe for the person's brain to be able to concentrate on anything else. Sometimes being on meds first helps clear the person's brain a little, wipe away some cobwebs so that the person can see and feel their way through to the other methods. In other words, if a person is severely depressed enough, all the talk therapy in the world isn't gonna do one bit of good if the person can't do anything but feel horrible. Sometimes getting on meds first makes the path clearer.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"You ARE judging people who "jump right to the pills" without knowing the full circumstances of their decisions."

I'm not judging, I am making a suggestion. In all of your cases, it is too late. You have already taken the medication. But I am talking about that very first panic attack a person has. Their doctor should try talking to them about breathing techniques first and see if that can help before writing a prescription. In every day life, everyone should try to make each day a great one. I know it is hard Kate but maybe you could start with affirmations or a book. I know you are angry and depressed and it is hard to come out of that deep dark place and you need the medication, but I'm just suggesting you try. I am not saying that will cure you I am not saying you don't need meds. I am saying try variation. That's all.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

" I was put on both at the time of my breakdown because there isn't a hope in hell that anything else could help at that time. They literally knocked me out so I could cope while the longer term meds kicked in. I was also put on sleeping pills. I was then gradually taken off the stronger medications and in intensive counselling, when I was able to face the issues."

You are talking about a break down. I am talking panic attacks. BIG DIFFERENCE. Kate keeps talking about her Bi-polar issue which included violence and self mutilation. I am talking about experiencing a periodic panic attack and making an attempt to breathe through it. You are missing the mark. Way OVER SHOOTING. I told a story earlier about a doctor prescribing me Prozac for what I believe to have been a asthma attack. I thought I was having a heart attack and could not breath. If he thought I had a chemical imbalance, but I didn't, what damage could have been done by me taking pills that I didn't need?
This is what I am getting at- doctors make mistakes and misdiagnose. People do need medication but I want to know how they are reaching the diagnosis. Not for those of you that KNOW why you are on it and claim it works. But just people in general.

Kate CP - posted on 10/21/2010

You seem to keep missing the thing I'm saying OVER AND OVER, Kimberly:

You say that you should try all other options BEFORE medication and what *I* am saying is that when you take a stance like that it furthers the stigma that medication is BAD. What *I* am trying to say, OVER AND OVER again, is that this is a personal matter between a patient and their doctor and NO ONE should feel like less of a person or a failure because they take medication or chose to take medication as a first step. You ARE judging people who "jump right to the pills" without knowing the full circumstances of their decisions.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

Just say you don't care, say you weren't aware of the myth say something!

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

" I think you're missing a vital point here, at least how I feel, I can't claim this one for anyone else...I do not *care* about the chemical imbalance myth or fact, I do not care why the studies you found claim the medications don't work...the point is...they do work for many people and that is more powerful and worth so much more than any study found on either side of the issue. I don't feel the need to back up any one else's claims that the drugs used to treat a chemical imbalance (real or made up, proven or not) worked for them, hell, if a placebo worked for them...GREAT. "

This is what I was looking for- a rebuttal and answer to the myth. No one was throwing it out. Just ignoring the question. Thank you!

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

I have never once said on here that medication was not necessary. I've never judged anyone. I've never said that positive thinking was the end all be all. You gals can read whatever you want into it. I only had questions. Questions you can't answer. It's not getting anywhere. BTW, I think this would be a great group to add to COM. Seriously.

I mistakingly took this as a debate group. I had no idea that the agenda changes once it is a personal matter. It's so hypocritical how I see you same ladies taking certain stances on other topics that you have no experience with what so ever. But that's what you are supposed to do.

Joy - posted on 10/21/2010

I wasn't saying I'm a failure! I was saying that me trying for years to deal with it without the help of meds was a failure :) It just took me a long time and a lot of stubbornness to get over to realize it :)

Jodi - posted on 10/21/2010

If I could also just add, you do understand, don't you Kimberly, that no-one is saying positive thinking can't *help*. They are just saying that various techniques need to be used together with positive thinking. There is a lot more to depression and anxiety than just positive thinking. THIS is what people have an issue with.



And if you truly want some scientific fact, you will have to wait until I have time to get to my storage facility, because all my psychology paperwork is there from when I did my degree all those years ago. Abnormal Psychology is one of the subjects I studied at Uni in my Bachelor Degree as a Psychology major. But anyway......

Jodi - posted on 10/21/2010

*head -> desk*'



Whatever Kimberly. I just hope you never have it happen to you, and then have someone like you judging your illness. Because that would really suck.

Kimberly - posted on 10/21/2010

"First you have to wake up and be angry. Angry at every one and everything for everything they do."



Now, this makes sense at why you keep skipping over the only think I have been asking. I believe you all suffer and I believe you all need medication. It was the steps to getting the medication that I questioned. All of your stories are valid. I never said you were making anything up. You're so angry that you refuse to see that I am on your side. If I say challenge the pills you're angry. If I say keep the pills your angry. If I say ask your doctors how they came up with a chemical balance diagnosis you're angry. If I say, don't ask them, you're angry. I think you can have a chemical imbalance but it cannot be proven, therefore how can a doctor give you the correct prescription for something he is taking a guess on? That's all I was saying. And by positive thinking and breathing techniques, I meant BEFORE you have an episode, it's a little too late during. I meant, always try to think positively in general life but if you start feeling out of sorts and know the feelings of the lead up to an attack, begin TRYING to control your breathing then not once it has gone full blown.



" You opened a debate on which you have absolutely no personal or professional experience, you may have expected loads of research from us, but you should have expected we're satisfied with our personal experiences as truth enough, and which are worth more than their weight in gold, and certainly worth more than the money put into any research on the topic."



That is why it is a debate. It has nothing to do with personal experiences. People debate abortions all the time and most have never ever had one. People debate war and have never been in the military. People debate religion and don't believe in God. So by your logic- you should stay on the side of the fence on which you have the expertise. Then it's no longer a debate- it's a support group! I do (did) expect research from you. But now i see you are only posting because you want me to know your story. Kate- I'm not sure how many times I can tell you - you're story is sooooo over and above what I was talking about your illness is in no way being included in what I originally posted.I know you are angry but you are validated. You all are and it shouldn't take me agreeing with you on a debate topic to make you know that. It's a debate. Check the feelings at the door. I actually judge high school debate and some of these kids are so effective at proving their points that they can make me question my stance most of the time. It's an art. I was looking for that here.



I was looking for some studies and evidence aside from feelings. They are important too but I wanted scientific info.

Jenn - posted on 10/21/2010

Someone said something about "keep taking your medication, don't ask questions" or whatever - well most people have to try out several different types and dosages of medications to get just the right level that they need and are in continual contact with their Doctor. It took my Mom years to get it right (or her Doctor I should say). It's not like the Dr gives you a prescription for anti-depressants and it's all better. You may not respond well to that particular medication. And for those who still don't believe that medication is necessary - I'd like for you to meet my Mum when she is NOT on medication and tell me what you think.

Karen - posted on 10/21/2010

Talking from personal experience, i agree positive thinking does make a difference, but when your going through a depressive episode the last thing you can do is think positive, its a struggle to get out of bed never mind feel possitive. I have suffered depression for the past 20 years, i refused medication for many years and i am surprised i am still here, I gave in and took the medication, it took time to work,but now i still get low days, but more importantly get brilliant days and weeks now, I worried too much about peoples opinions on taking anti depressants, now i think i need to do what i need to do, all that matters is that i do my best for my children, they dont judge me. Why should i worry about other peoples opinions, i am here, i am a single mum and i am alive,,,,, whats more important to my precious children ? i know what i think. >>>>>>>>>>>IF ONLY IT WAS AS EASY AS POSITIVE THINKING, WALK A MONTH IN MY SHOES AND THEN JUDGE ME.....