Move to Ban Formula Samples

Jodi - posted on 04/15/2012

"The American Hospital Association, in a statement, said its members drafted policies based on mothers' preferences and that while breastfeeding was best, "having information and resources available for mothers who choose not to breastfeed is a responsible and supportive approach for the hospital."



That doesn't say "having samples and advertising available for mothers who choose not to breastfeed is a responsible and supportive approach for the hospital." It says information and resources. This is not the same thing.



I get what you are saying. That if a woman wants to formula feed, she should have support too. That's fine. But if she is choosing to NOT to breastfeed, shouldn't she be organised enough to have arranged for some formula anyway. I am not talking about women who CAN'T breastfeed, I am talking about the ones who choose not to (as are you).

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/15/2012

So, I have done some quick research and found some interesting info.



First of all, as I assumed, guess what groups are saying formula samples could potentially sway a mother to use them? I bet everyone that disbelieves these samples sway anyone, already know the answer. The answer is - drum roll - breastfeeding activists. Yep, not "real" studies but those that "only" believe in breastfeeding. They are the ones pushing to have formula samples removed from Hospital. Yes, a very biased approach.



So, tell me. For all those mothers that cannot breastfeed due to whatever reason, how are they suppose to get support? How are they supposed to become educated on formula and what ones to use or how to use them? Are we suppose to dictate that because they are not breastfeeding they should be left to figure it out on their own? If they are not shown any type of support, then they are left to be made to feel guilty for choosing formula, even if they "had" to.



How about the fact that in the States, they are just beginning to allow the baby to stay in the same room as the mother after birth? Maybe the fact that for the longest time they discouraged this, had something to do with lower breastfeeding rates? Or perhaps the fact that they never had breastfeeding information readily available. Many nurses were not and still are not, trained on how to educate a mother on how to breastfeed. Now, they (in the States) are starting to do this. Since this has started becoming the "norm" more and more mothers are starting to breastfeed.



Honestly, it is not the free formula samples causing havic. It is the fact that there has not been a lot of support for breastfeeding. Education has and still is the issue. Once the hospitals and pediatricians get on board and get educated themselves on how to help support a mother, it is going to remain a problem. It simply has absolutely nothing to do with free samples.



Here in Canada (Alberta and Nova Scotia), breastfeeding is highly promoted, in hospital and by most pediatrcians. They are there to support you. As soon as your baby is born they immediately put the baby on the mom, for skin to skin contact. They even explain why they are doing this. Where I had a c-section, I had to wait until I was all sewed up but as soon as that was done, they gave me my baby and promoted me to try breastfeeding. They explained the importance (even though I already knew) and they helped my babies get the correct latch. Nurses spent hours with me and my son, since he had problems with latching. They never ever gave up. They were there the entire time helping me. It sounds as though, this is not the case in the States. This is why breastfeeding rates are not as high as they should be.



The Hospital I had my son doesn't even have a baby room. ALL babies must stay in the room with their mother. They have a wheeled crib and your baby is with you the entire time.



BTW - This is how it was for me 14 years ago and 17 months ago. My baby stayed with me the entire 5 days both times I was in Hospital. I was encouraged to breastfeed both times. However, I was also never told formula was bad, just that it is best if I can breastfeed or at least give it my best shot.



The American Hospital Association, in a statement, said its members drafted policies based on mothers' preferences and that while breastfeeding was best, "having information and resources available for mothers who choose not to breastfeed is a responsible and supportive approach for the hospital."



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/articl...

Jodi - posted on 04/15/2012

"I have never seen a single study proving that formula samples are detrimental to SOME women's breastfeeding experience. Please provide your sources."

Go look up the experiences of women in third world countries. That is where the huge differentiation has been found. When you apply the results of those studies to women in developed countries, you will find that the effect is smaller, but it is still there. To be quite honest, I don't have time right now to look them up, but I have read them previously and I can understand that while it may not be THE MAJOR contributor in a developed country (because as you rightly pointed out, maternity leave is a major factor), it does still have a minor impact.

Jodi - posted on 04/15/2012

"Ah, so studies aren't the only thing used by those that use "studies" to prove their point on some subjects, since I can see they only use them when "they feel" it is warranted, for their opposition. Studies have shown that not boiling water can cause severe diarrhea, as well as other bacterial growth. ;) "

See, I always boiled water when they were really young too. Until at least 6 months.

Janice - posted on 04/15/2012

I do think that it would be difficult to find a study in which women name free formula from the hospital as the reason they formula feed.

I dont think that formula "starts the fire" per say, but is rather an accelerant. While I understand why some want to remove these free samples I think there is a better way to increase breastfeeding awareness.

In the US even doctors regularly spout misconceptions about breastfeeding and regularly urge mothers to use formula. I think if the extremely wide spread issue of lack of breastfeeding knowledge is resolved than giving out formula samples wont be a big deal at all.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/15/2012

Ah, so studies aren't the only thing used by those that use "studies" to prove their point on some subjects, since I can see they only use them when "they feel" it is warranted, for their opposition. Studies have shown that not boiling water can cause severe diarrhea, as well as other bacterial growth. ;)



WHO Guidelines for Preparing Formula

The World Health Organization issued guidelines on the safe preparation, storage and handling of powdered infant formula after experts recognized that powdered formula was not sterile and was sometimes putting babies at risk for serious bacterial infections.

To reduce this risk, the WHO recommends cleaning and sterilizing feeding and preparation equipment and then making a fresh bottle of powdered infant formula for each feed by:

•cleaning and disinfecting all surfaces you will be using and washing your hands properly

•boiling water, even if it is bottled water

•let the water cool (not more than 30 minutes though, so it doesn't get below 70 degrees) and pour it into a cleaned and sterilized bottle

•add the exact amount of powdered formula to the water

•assemble the bottle and mix the powdered formula thoroughly

•quickly cool the bottle by holding it under running tap water or by placing it in a container of cold water or iced water

•dry the bottle with a clean cloth

•check the temperature of the formula so that it doesn't burn your baby's mouth

•feed your baby if the formula is at an appropriate temperature

The WHO also offers detailed advice on storing extra formula and traveling with prepared formula.



What Pediatricians Recommend



Talk to your baby's pediatrician and ask what kind of water you should use when mixing infant formula. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends boiling water to remove impurities and kill germs. While most municipal and public drinking water supplies are required to follow strict regulatory guidelines to be safe, pediatricians generally still suggest using boiled water to mix infant formula, at least for the first three or four months. Since there is no evidence that bottled water is safer than municipal water sources, the AAP says that while parents can use bottled water to mix formula, it needs to be boiled first. You can also use distilled water that has already been purified or ready-to-use formulas, which do not need to be mixed with water.



Boiling Water



The U.S Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recommends bringing water to a full rolling boil and then continuing to boil it for at least another two minutes. If you live at a higher altitude, you may have to boil water for several minutes longer. Water must reach a temperature of 100°C to kill harmful organisms. However, boiling the same water more than once or for too long actually increases the concentration of minerals in the water. Always boil water in a clean pan and allow it to cool to room temperature before mixing it with formula. Do not cool water by adding cold water that has not been sterilized.



For those that tend to follow everything that the WHO or AAP says. ;)



OK, now I can go back to the topic as well. I just wanted it to be understood, that boiling water is recommended by 3 major organizations.



Also, you should never ever use a microwave to heat formula. It cooks it and that takes away many of the nutrients and minerals in it.

Rebecca - posted on 04/15/2012

Then you should have left the can at the hospital. I'm pretty sure no one followed you out of the hospital with a gun forcing you to take a can of formula.



I have never seen a single study proving that formula samples are detrimental to SOME women's breastfeeding experience. Please provide your sources.

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/15/2012

With our 25 foster babies and my adopted brother we never boiled water, we used the microwave to heat it, and used powdered formula from birth. Also, we only sterilized stuff in between babies.

Ok back to topic.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/15/2012

*********MOD WARNING*********

Just a reminder to keep a cool head in this debate ladies. Lets not turn this into a bickering thread, and keep it on track please

DM MoD ~Little Miss~

Sherri - posted on 04/15/2012

Powdered formula is indeed given in some of the hospitals because it is given here and they actually do give out only powdered formula for newborns to leave with and at the pediatricans office as well for your newborn.

I never ever boiled water. I simply used water out of the tap. I never sterilized bottler, nipples or pacifiers either though.

Janice - posted on 04/15/2012

The hospitals in my area give babies in the hospital little 2oz pre-made bottles that you just shake and then add a nipple to. We were sent home with a four pack. It was not part of a goody bag though. They offered and my hubby accepted them :)



Once again it must be said that although the women here on debating moms may not be influenced, other moms who have less desire to learn about the differences may be easily swayed.

Jodi - posted on 04/15/2012

"I do believe Australia does have better rates of breastfeeding though. So yeah people might still use formula byu I think the reason the world health organization is trying to ban all this formula advertisement is because it HAS helped in other countries such as Australia. "

Actually, I think the biggest reason WHO has tried to ban formula advertising, including free samples, is because said advertising/marketing/samples has had a huge negative impact on third world countries in particular. Studies in those countries have shown that it has had negative impact. MAJOR negative impact, with affordability being a factor once these mothers convert to formula. So, while the impact isn't quite the same in developed countries (we have a greater level of affordability), there would definitely still be an impact.

Anyway, I just wanted to clarify why the WHO has this recommendation.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/15/2012

Well, all I can say is it made absolutely no difference for me. I didn't get any from the hospital but I did have some via mail. I still breastfed until I couldn't anymore. Than I obviously had to feed my boy somehow. It wasn't due to having some free samples. ;)

My good friend with the 4 kids that were exclusively formula fed, didn't do it because she got free samples upon leaving hospital. She didn't get any, either. So, it was a decision based on her own reasons, not from something that swayed her.

Jodi - posted on 04/15/2012

"every mom on here who has exclusively formula feed or used it as a supplement has said it makes no difference."

Actually, not true, but carry on......

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/15/2012

I whole heartedly agree with Rebecca. I think experience, which most here are speaking from, provides a much more valid stance, than a study that has been conducted with a biased approach.

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/15/2012

Rebecca your post makes me quite angry. I don't know if you intended to sound so strongly but you come off quite snotty.



I'm not talking out my ass here.

I WAS GIVEN POWDERED FORMULA FROM THE HOSPITAL.

I told them I did not want or need it, and they said it didn't matter, I got one anyways.



And my speaking on here has nothing to do with personal opinion or experience. It comes from reading studies and statistics about how formula advertising and samples negatively affect breastfeeding rates.

My word is just as good as anyone else's simply because this isn't just about eorsonal experience. Fact is this has been proven and samples ARE detrimental to SOME women's breastfeeding experience.

Rebecca - posted on 04/15/2012

Actually, Laura, all the formula I received from the hospital was premade. They don't use powder in the hospital nor do they distribute it. They distribute bottles and cans of the liquid. The formula companies will send a free can or two to your house if you request it. Also, in my experience, the only people who go home with "swag bags" are those who request them. If you say you don't want it, they won't give it to you.



I find it remarkable how many moms here who exclusively breastfeed are offering an opinion as to whether the free formula influences moms to not breastfeed, yet without exception, every mom on here who has exclusively formula feed or used it as a supplement has said it makes no difference.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/15/2012

You're right Laura, the powdered version is not the recommended but it has been proven to be the least likely to be contaminated at manufacturer. It is not the most recommended because too many parents do not know how to mix it properly, they either misread the instructions or do not boil the water properly.



Boiling the water is not as easy as one thinks. You are only supposed to boil water for 2 mins, anything over and you are creating "hard" water and it causes new chemicals to create. I did hours of research on formula and boiling of the water. ;)



I simply did not like the powdered. I tried it and had chunks in the milk. I was too worried that I was not doing it right. So, I went back to my concentrated cans. I boiled my own water, that way I knew it was boiled properly and was not going to be accidentally made incorrectly. I measured the water and formula every single time I made it. I was so very careful, that it was damn stressful making formula. ;)

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/15/2012

I do believe Australia does have better rates of breastfeeding though. So yeah people might still use formula byu I think the reason the world health organization is trying to ban all this formula advertisement is because it HAS helped in other countries such as Australia.



Also I believe the powdered cans of formula aren't even recommended for newborn!

The safest way to formula feed a newborn is to use premade formula, the ready to eat type.

So now the hospital is giving moms the second rate food in its second rate style. Seems messed up IMO.



Disclaimer of of course many babies eat the powdered stuff from day one and are fine, it's just that contamination can happen and has, albeit really rarely, happened.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/15/2012

Oh we also do not have formula ads here. We have breastfeeding posters though, in all the doctors offices I have ever been in.

Yet, mothers still formula feed. So, they do not get free samples and the do not see advertisment but yet, they STILL use formula. Yeah, I think getting a free sample has very very little to do with what a woman chooses.

Janice - posted on 04/15/2012

I do think that in the grand scheme, a sample can of formula is not going to be the decider. However, I think that advertising in general has the general public convinced that breastfeeding and formula are equal. Yes, we often here "Breast is best" but so often I here people say that, roll their eyes and then explain why its really the same nutritionally.



Recently it was thought that a newborn died because of contaminated formula. Now I do believe it was determined that it was not the formula. However, it could have been the formula. However, most people are completely unaware of this risk. Yes, it is a small risk and one that obviously one that in no way out ways starvation risk.



We like to pretend that everyone is as smart as we are here on COM but its just plain not true. When hurricane Katrina hit, mother's who birthed baby's in the weeks and months of the aftermath were encouraged to breastfeed due to lack of clean water supply. Yet, overwhelming these women chose to get the free formula. Why? Because formula ads convince people that formula is just as good as breastfeeding and because "a woman's decision regarding her own tits is anyone's fucking business but her own."



Lastly, a hospital giving a woman formula could be seen by many as saying you will most likely fail, how is that not undermining breastfeeding?



ETA: I think if breastfeeding info was displayed as readily as formula info and most women really were making informed decisions, then it would be perfectly fine to give a free can to any woman who wanted one.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/15/2012

MeMe---If you are going to try breastfeeding, then you aren't going to be swayed by some free fucken sample. If you are going to formula feed, you either already know what brand you're going to use OR you go with what the hospital uses OR you ask others that have used formula OR you eventually go with the free sample.

They aren't promoting how to feed your baby, they are promoting their brands, if you ever need to use them.. Are there some stupid people in the world? Absolutely. Do I think there are many that wait until they are leaving the hospital to decide on how they are going to feed their baby? Umm, no. Do some give up on breastfeeding because it is a hell of a lot harder than what they expected? Yes, absolutely. Is it because they got a free sample? Now that's just stupid!

I think I said that if you are going to TRY breastfeeding, you aren't going to be swayed by a free sample. I never said if you decided to try, that you wouldn't change your mind once you realized how hard it can actually be. Quite the contrary, actually. Anyhow, I have quoted what I said above.

I am in strong belief that the majority are not swayed because they get a free sample of formula. I didn't get a free sample of anything. I breastfed my first exclusively for 18 months. I breastfed my 2nd for 3 months, then due to infection in my nipples moved onto formula. Obviously a free sample of formula did not make that decision for me. No one gets free samples here, where I live but yet, many people formula feed. hmmmm.....

Beth - posted on 04/15/2012

Honestly, as pro-breastfeeding as I am (which is VERY), I think this goes a little too far. Formula samples should be available for mothers who want/need to use formula. Simple as that. It's not as good as breastfeeding, but it's still a viable choice. Taking any cause to extremes like this, even a good cause, is damaging both to the cause itself and to those who aren't able to participate.

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/15/2012

I know the outcomes of breastfed vs formula fed aren't conclusive but I just know breastmilk is the best choice health wise.

The cells in formula are dead, processed, and not even human.

The cells in breastmilk are living and changing and specificly from the baby's mom and can even kill cancer cells!

Looking at kid A vs kid B you may not see the difference externally but I really do believe that in the long run, over their whole life, there is a difference when they're bodies we're started out on living human milk. So that's why I bresatfeed.

And my other reasons include, now that I've learned how- its easier, less work, less money, less time, and more relaxing.

I see reasons moms bottle feed and I understand many of the reasons they choose it. Sometimes it does look easier when they bottle feed so they can make dad do a feed' or leave baby at grandmas, or let baby feed themself. But I guess I feel like I don't want to leave my baby anyways, and I like being forced to sit and feed her as its a good way to reconnect now that she's running all over the house :)

**Jackie** - posted on 04/15/2012

I'm not sure I understand why this is turning into such a HUGE debate....it's not like your options are breast milk or Mountain Dew. Formula has nutrients and vitamins and is a very sufficient food for most children. My daughter has never had breast milk a day in her life and she is in the 60 percentile, has only ever has one cold (which was my DH's fault lol) and is a happy, healthy, loving, terror.

If you don't even want the formula in your home, donate it. I feel that if a mother is committed to breastfeeding and then sees a can of formula and decides "cool this seems easier" she may be more impressionable than most.

I was given mesh panties in my goodie bag, I didn't think "oh yeah these seem cool" and use them...no I used my own cotton granny panties that were 3 sizes too big that I got from Walmart for this particular occasion.

Aleks - posted on 04/14/2012

I think Sherri it is the other way around. It has become socially normal for mothers to be going back to work after such a short time post partum because of the pervasive use of formula right from the get go or shortly thereafter. I bet that if the norm became to nurse for longer, there would be more pressure to change the ridiculously short maternity leave rates in the US.



That is how things have happened in other countries.

Though at the moment it certainly is a bit of a catch-22 in the US.



Also, many mums don't start breastfeeding because it gives them more bonding. I certainly didn't and that was not the main message we are being told here in Australia. It is predominantly the health aspect that is far the biggest reason I and many others have tried to breastfeed. The "extra" bonding and "cheaper" is a nice little bonus I guess. Though I know that this is not how everyone thinks. I am just relaying message we are told here, and what others have said to me.



As for the bf in the early days.... I hear your frustration and I soooooooo get them. Just keep remembering that things will get better.... and you will eventually get back the ability to spend more time with the older kids, and hubby. And one day your house will look good once again.. and so will you ;-)

Sherri - posted on 04/14/2012

Aleksandra I am willing to bet dollars to donuts the reason for the supplementing or switching to formula at 12wks or 3mo's is because in the US that is when your maternity leave ends and you have to return back to work not because of samples. I don't think that advertising or samples are as big of a culprit as having to return to work by 12wks is.

Also I am a breastfeeding mom as I said already but I honestly don't necessarily think it is better. I am no more bonded to this child then my oldest who never breastfed. Honestly if it simply didn't save us money I can guarantee you that he would be formula fed and it has zero to do with the samples since I have 5 cans of free samples here now. It is 1,000 times easier and way more convenient in my life. I am trapped every 2-3hrs on the couch for a minimum of 20mins at a whack. Other things suffer because of it. Doing things for my other 3 kids, getting stuff done in the house. It makes me a bit crazy and sometimes makes me feel less bonded because it can get frustrating, not feeling like my body is mine and simply not having any time at all or able to get a break ever because of him having to be with me at all times due to nursing.

However, sorry for my little frustrated rant at my life at the moment. I know a bit off track. I can see an outsiders view as well. I just personally don't feel breastfeeding is that important to fight so hard for. I can think of a million and one other things I would fight harder for before I would this. However, on the same note I can see from a medical stand point and world organizations and even many woman's/moms feeling for wanting to see less formula and more breastfeeding. It is proven breastfeeding is best and hence why more people and organizations would prefer it and see less push on formula, I really do get it.

Aleks - posted on 04/14/2012

So be it Sherri.... and many like you don't see a big deal about the whole contreversy over formula. You know what... I was probably similar before having a child..... However, the more I read the more I started to understand how great breastfeeding is. No there isn't anything wrong with formula and no, it is not bad, and there is not an indication here that those who feel like you don't read or know much more about breastfeeding/formula, so please don't jump up and down putting words into my statements by "reading between the lines" so to speak, lol. To *me* by having read all the stuff that I have so far I have found that formula is "satisfatory" in nourishing a baby. If it was bad or not satisfactory then there would be a huge problem and I am sure that our governments would quickly try to fix that. But that breastfeeding as we all know is far superior in a lot of ways.



However, if a mother can be encouraged to overcome initial difficulties (and I don't mean that every difficulty can be over come, some cannot, for others there are not even difficuties but down right impossibilities - so I will not be talking about these circumstances here) why not do everything possible to help her reach above just "satisfactory"??? Why allow influences (which many mums and especially new mums, who have little to no power/knowledge in discerning these) to sabotague them in their endevours?



Kind of like the whole junk food commercials during childhood tv programming. Or other things like alcohol advertising during children or "family" tv shows or even sporting events. Yeah, junk food is ok - sometimes. Yeah, having a drink is ok - occassionally and in moderation and if you are an adult. These things are in themselves not "bad", but I wouldn't want to be encouraging the "encourages" (lol... I know I just invented a word.. he he he... but it kind of serves my purpose here...lol) in doing whatever they want - as essentially what they only want is to make money. And social responsibility sometimes has to be forced upon the corporates (who's sole purpose is to make as much money as possible for its shareholders) otherwise they themselves have no to little motivation or incentive to do what is right or responsible.

One way of doing things is to ban advertising (or advertising in certain times and places) or marketing of such things. Other ways is to tax the companies or their products. Etc...these are just some of the examples of how we can force money making corporates into performing or being more socially responsible.



So what has happened is that the pendulum has swung in a direction where the switching from breastfeeding after a few months or not even breastfeeding at all has/is become the norm.... Because of all the marketing and advertising the formula companies have done over the years. Then, slowly many HEALTH organisations started to say... "actually..... we don't think this is such a great idea.. we are seeing evidence that formula isn't, in fact, such a great and perfect substitute (as originally touted and believed) and it is healthier for our human babies to be receiving milk from breastfeeding".... So now has come a time where these health organisations are trying to promote the healthier way of doing things. And at the same time snap into shape the previously indifferent companies into following bit more of a "social conscience" mind set. And using the banning of advertising and free samples is one way in doing so.



Now because here in Australia we don't have those sample bags in the first place, nor do formula companies send free samples to new mothers I don't see how it is such a detrimental thing in banning these... Women cope here without those....and I don't see how banning these from goodie bags is such a huge issue as to warrant such a ranting and offensive response from the blogger in the OP.

Jennifer - posted on 04/14/2012

MeMe, I actually know several woman who went to the hospital in labor with no method of feeding in mind. My SIL was one. She was told after delivery that the baby needed to eat, and was handed her. (the hospital here expects BF) She went with the flow and tried to get my neice to latch on, but not knowing ANYTHING other than seeing me breastfeed my son at 4 months and older, well, it didn't go well. The nurse got the baby to latch on, and that was the end of that!! My brother was out the next day buying bottles and all the other goodies! When he saw the price of formula, he about dropped dead!



But, the samples had little to do with anyone I know choosing to BF or formula feed. It was all on mom, and how she felt. I'm not for or against the samples, because when I just couldn't get my baby to latch properly, I had the samples, but we still had to run out and buy bottles. I just ran to wal-mart and bought a couple bottles and a cheap pump. I couldn't 'breast feed' but she still got my milk!

Sherri - posted on 04/14/2012

You have some valid points Aleksandra but I just don't see the big deal, because if someone is swayed to formula feed just because they got a free sample of formula whether it be from the hospital or in the mail it isn't going to be to the detriment of the child. Breastmilk is more of a natural food no disputing that but not always best if mom is stressed, baby is stressed and formula is easier then so be it. Then by all means turn to the formula your baby isn't going to suffer any worse because of it.

I guess I just don't see the big deal or controversy about formula. This is being said from a mom that is currently exclusively breastfeeding her 8wk old and is the mother of 4. Especially since by the time babies are 3 mo's old. A substantial number of moms switch to formula or start supplementing with formula anyways (at least in the US).

Aleks - posted on 04/14/2012

If the formula companies though that, MeMe then they would not be handing out formula indiscrminantly to everyone. But they do, for a very good reason. While I do agree (strangely lol) with a lot what you are saying it's not *exactly* correct. If they wanted to sway only the ff mums then the hospitals would be giving 2 separate bags, one for bf mums with specific stuff for them and one for ff mums with samples directed at them including formula samples. But the don't. Or, formula companies could donate cans to hospitals so that they can then hand them out to mums in circumstances such as Rebecca's, to tie them over for a day or two. But they don't. That is why I don't see the goodie bag as being altruistic in any sense, therefore, banning free samples is not such an outcry to me.

Aleks - posted on 04/14/2012

I did MeMe. I intended to give bf a go and see what happens. I was under no delusion that I was going to end up breastfeeding my child exclusively or till they were 12 mths or any specified time period. I had never even come across the term "exclusive breastfeeding" until CoM. Not when I went into hospital to give birth nor when I came out. I have heard other mums around state the same and have assumed that that is a common thing...

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/14/2012

Yeah many moms are undecided or wishi washy about how they will feed their baby when they deliver. Many don't want to get their hopes up because they're scared breastfeeding won't work. Some just don't really care! They say they will try bf but no real determination to continue, if it's easy they may continue, if not they will bottle feed.

There's many moms who even were dead set on it but after a rough labor and delivery and day of baby fighting latch or pain or whatever they maybe will look at that sample tin and say screw this!

Or as I said before, family members can choose to not wake mom and just give formula even if she didn't wish it, family is 'nice' like that sometimes :-/

Janice - posted on 04/14/2012

Actually, Meme I was one of those who said I would try to breastfeed but I was in no way committed to making it work before my LO was born. That did change once emotions got a hold of me.

I am not against the free samples but if you are not committed to breastfeeding and you get cracked nipple the day you leave the hospital, you may suddenly think 'F this its not worth it, besides I have formula right here.'



I think its reasonable believe that there are many women out there who dont seek help with breastfeeding because the formula is right there.

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/14/2012

Statisticly the samples have been reasonably proven to undermine breastfeeding efforts. You don't have to like it but that's why the world health organizaton is working to ban all samples from hospitals!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 04/14/2012

Many of you are making it sound as though many mothers out there, wait to make the choice of how they are going to feed their baby until born. Who the hell does that? You have 9 months to make your decision. Most mothers have this figured out BEFORE they go into labour. I don't know any mother that waited until their baby was born and then said "well you are here now, how do you want to eat?". That's just silly.



If you are going to try breastfeeding, then you aren't going to be swayed by some free fucken sample. If you are going to formula feed, you either already know what brand you're going to use OR you go with what the hospital uses OR you ask others that have used formula OR you eventually go with the free sample. There ya go, the free sample didn't sway anyone for how they are going to feed their baby, just what brand if they have choosen formula. However, you get the free sample when you are leaving. Your baby has already eaten something, perhaps breastmilk, perhaps a brand of formula.



A free sample is required by some hospitals because it is a part of their contract to give out these free bags, paid for by the companies supporting the bags. The hospital has to have these products on hand for obvious reasons. They more than likely get a better cost if they help promote the brands they use. They aren't promoting how to feed your baby, they are promoting their brands, if you ever need to use them.. Are there some stupid people in the world? Absolutely. Do I think there are many that wait until they are leaving the hospital to decide on how they are going to feed their baby? Umm, no. Do some give up on breastfeeding because it is a hell of a lot harder than what they expected? Yes, absolutely. Is it because they got a free sample? Now that's just stupid!

Aleks - posted on 04/14/2012

"Oh, believe me, marketing is all about getting you to not only switch to their brand, but to plant the seed that it would just be easier to give up and feed the baby formula. They DO do things to convince women not to breastfeed if they are already wavering. You may not see it, woman who are extremely dedicated to breastfeeding their baby won't see it, but that is a minority. There are plenty of women who just give up because it gets too hard, and they market to these women"



Exactly....

Aleks - posted on 04/14/2012

Rebecca... and Jodi



Honestly, why your situation was not an enviable one, are you seriously believe that you are the only one who has experienced this?



Like I have said, and so has Jodi, here we in Australia DON'T GET samples or cans of formual for free sent to us by the formula companies. Somehow, those mothers, who am sure have been in your situation or similar one have been somehow able to deal with it.



Sure, this sample/free formula helped you out, no doubt about it... but lets be honest, if you didn't get those samples, like a whole lot of women don't around the world and also have to go through what you went through ( I hardly doubt it you were the only one who has gone through what you have on this planet) or even worse..... Yet, I bet they lived through and survived... and so did their babies.



Just be outright honest, and say that you BELIEVE in having these handed out for CONVINIENCE and mentality that believes in entitlement of these.



Like I said, if you coming out of hospital and you KNOW there are problems with weight gain and milk/breastfeeding, wouldn't you ask your husband, sister, mother, father, best friend to go and get you a can or two of whatever brand your hospital was using/giving you (if you don't know anything else or trust anything else at that point) so you are stocked up.... you know, just in case????



I don't know about you.... but I sure would have... may be it is just me....... I like to be organised....

Seriously.. I don't know about others, but I am NOT A VICTIM and I don't like to think that I am so if shit happens I don't cry poor me......



And to be honest, most formula companies don't give out free samples to people who have serious issues... they give these purely to promote their brand.. even if it includes using when mother able to (but may be struggling for one reason or another) with breastfeeding.

Jodi - posted on 04/14/2012

"The mentality often is 'if everyone gets a can of formula from the hospital then not being able to breast is normal' right?"

Exactly. It is normalising the fact that breastfeeding shouldn't be that difficult. And the fact is, breastfeeding is fucking hard. The formula companies rely on this to convert someone who may otherwise have persevered through what was difficult by making it convenient to give up. We are not just talking a sample bag with one feed in it. We are talking CANS of formula.

Janice - posted on 04/14/2012

I am under the impression that the women here on COM are information junkies. We are here because we know a lot and or want to know more. However, a good chunk of the population is not well informed about infant nutrition and feeding. When the going gets tough they dont know it will probably get better. They don't know that there are solutions to their problems. They just assume that they can not breastfeed.

The mentality often is 'if everyone gets a can of formula from the hospital then not being able to breast feed is normal' right?

Jodi - posted on 04/14/2012

"Jodi not all woman get that kind of help. "

I am sorry you didn't get that help. The system is supposed to be there to give you that help. Obviously whoever was assisting you was wrong, and it shouldn't be that way.

However, I don't understand what you had to research....which brand to buy? Which was best for your baby? Even the system can't help you make that choice. And regardless of what anyone tells you, in anything in life (from vaccines to formula to choosing a school) you should always research yourself anyway. The help is only there to discuss your options. Your choice has to be made based on your own research.

Jodi - posted on 04/14/2012

"Agreed, but I think Jodi's focus is wrong."

It isn't MY approach, it is the World Health Organisation's focus. Just saying. I just happen to have no problem with it.

"The reason why formula companies promote formula in the hospitals and send samples to the home is because they are hoping that a mom that is switching to formula will use their brand first and then stick with it. They don't have to do anything to convince women not to breastfeed."

Oh, believe me, marketing is all about getting you to not only switch to their brand, but to plant the seed that it would just be easier to give up and feed the baby formula. They DO do things to convince women not to breastfeed if they are already wavering. You may not see it, woman who are extremely dedicated to breastfeeding their baby won't see it, but that is a minority. There are plenty of women who just give up because it gets too hard, and they market to these women.

Vegemite - posted on 04/14/2012

Jodi not all woman get that kind of help. I didn't, my sister didn't and most of my friends who HAD to formula feed didn't. Instead we were told that breast feeding was better not to formula feed and given a whole heap of irrelevant to our sitiuations reasons not to use formula and our babies would become sick easily and made to feel like we would be bad mums if we didn't breast feed. All that happened to my baby is he went from a sick baby to a happy healthy baby. I had to do a lot of research on my own because no one would help me.
Rebecca i found Aleksandra's post offensive too.

Dove - posted on 04/14/2012

I haven't read most of the pages since I first responded or any of them really, but I agree w/ Rebecca about Aleksandra's post above. I NEEDED those free samples in the middle of the night and I live somewhere that has nothing open in the middle of the night. Yes, after the first night we went out and bought some formula 'just in case', but no one would've slept the entire night we first had trouble if not for the free sample. I had already been breastfeeding for 2 hours straight (at midnight) before caving in and using the formula.



I never planned on formula and only used it half a dozen times in the beginning as a last resort... after nursing two babies for 2 hours straight, but it sure was a lifesaver to have it around.



And again, Rebecca, YOU are my hero. :)

Rebecca - posted on 04/14/2012

Honestly, Aleksandra, I find your entire post above really offensive. For me personally, I always planned on exclusively breastfeeding. I expected nursing to be a few hard days before my milk came in. However, I took the formula samples home with me anyway (and had some sent to my house as well). My one twin only weighed 4 pounds when he was born, so my doctors felt he couldn't risk losing 10% of his body weight or more, so his doctors insisted that I use a supplemental feeder along with nursing him. So every feeding, I nursed and had a little bottle sitting on my shoulder. Well, it didn't take long to go through those little sample bottles with twins. And at a week, I still had no breastmilk. So we opened a can of formula. Same process, plus pumping 10-12 times a day to bring in my milk. Still no milk a week later. More formula. More nursing. More pumping. Still no breastmilk. It took a full two weeks for ANY milk to come in. It took another 4 weeks and a regimen of Reglan, Fenugreek, Blessed Thistle and nursing/pumping/nursing 12 times a day (at about 10 hours per day) for my milk to finally come in.



During this time period, I was home, alone, with twins recovering from a c-section. My husband went back to work the day I came home from the hospital. I couldn't drive for weeks. We don't have any stores I could have walked to. I had no family to help. So for me, those cans of formula sent to me by the formula company were a GODSEND. To suggest that new moms should just "go to the nearest supermarket or pharmacy" is insulting under those circumstances since I couldn't drive and had no one who could have gone for me. Withou those "sample" packs of formula, yes, my children would have been home starving during the day while we waited for Dad to get home with a can of formula. Not exactly the best thing for the health of a 4 pound newborn.



Women are still going to choose not to breastfeed whether or not they get samples for the doctors. Period. Because for a lot of women, breastfeeding is a miserable, terrible experience. Formula makers know that. The demand for formula is a ready-made market because breastfeeding is so difficult.

Rebecca - posted on 04/14/2012

"But Sherri, they wouldn't spend millions of dollars doing this if they didn't think it would have an effect of changing people's minds."



Agreed, but I think Jodi's focus is wrong. There goal isn't to "change people's minds" about feeding formula vs. breastfeeding. The formula companies already know that a certain percentage of women are going to breastfeed. What the formula companies are trying to effect is what BRAND of formula the new mom will buy. Formula makers know that many moms are reluctant to switch formula brands once a brand is established. And doctors re-enforce this impression by telling moms NOT to switch brands (even though they are all basically the same). The reason why formula companies promote formula in the hospitals and send samples to the home is because they are hoping that a mom that is switching to formula will use their brand first and then stick with it. They don't have to do anything to convince women not to breastfeed. The realities of breastfeeding and our lack of family-focused leave and pumping policies in the US take care of that issue all on their own.

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/14/2012

Yeah and it's not even breastfeeding advocates that are considering this ban, it's the government as a whole.

I did think it was out of line to call this the breastfeeding Gestapo but I shrugged it off as a pathetic insult

Aleks - posted on 04/14/2012

I, as a Polish woman whose grand parents and great grand parents had to FACE GESTAPO. Who has met and dealt with people with "that number tatoo" on their arms. Who's grand-parents' close friends had suffered physically dealing with the nazi's in general. Whose family of 8 (including a lot of children) faced immediate execution for saving another family's life at the hands of gestapo and nazi's. Whose many a family member were taken away to nazi camps (including underaged kids)

YEAH ITS OFFENSIVE.

Jodi - posted on 04/14/2012

Well, Janice, I have an issue with the term Gestapo when referring to the topic. I hardly think banning samples and advertising is on par with the Gestapo.

Jodi - posted on 04/14/2012

Jaime, no-one is going to allow a child to starve - we have a far better welfare system than you do. If a woman chooses not to breastfeed, though, and can't afford formula, then I'm sorry that's her problem. She should have considered the affordability when she made her choice. Sure, you may not like that opinion, but when it is choice, you get to choose when you can afford the choice.