Okay What would You do....

Jakki - posted on 12/14/2010

Petra! An hour has passed, please breath!

Petra - posted on 12/14/2010

AN - please do not keep your mouth shut! Its been a pleasure discussing this issue with you. I await your answers with baited breath :-)

A - posted on 12/13/2010

@ Rebecca

Your story is powerful. I cant imagine there ever being a time I wouldnt hug my son. Just the thought of it makes me tear up.

@ Barb

Thanks for the compliment :)

@ Petra-

I can't respond to your last post quickly. I want to do some more research on my own to make sure I have all my ducks in a row and I'm quoting things accurately, etc. I'm not avoiding your questions, but when it comes to God I want to be accurate. And that can take some time. Its something I've been doing lately in all aspects of my religion so adding homosexuality in to the mix isn't a bother at all. I’m young (24) and growing up I did, as you mention, just accept things because they were told to me. As an adult I’m trying to find answers with more solidarity so I can feel more confident and comfortable in my faith. I'll be working on it to get you some answers and get back to you. My goal is in the next couple of days but I can’t promise anything. The only time I have to work on it is nap time, which isn’t long enough these days…. Lol

But just a quick point, I think its hard for anyone who doesn’t have a good relationship with God to completely understand my perspective (not saying someone can’t, but if you don’t it makes it harder). If I weren’t a Christian, I would totally be on the other side of the argument in a heartbeat. I’ve even thought about being for the legalization of gay marriage because in the past I wasn’t sure if I should separate my political self from my religious self. Not only is this a difficult debate by itself, because it is really tied strongly to religion which is hard for some people to grasp, but there are also so many different religions, some of which do accept acting on homosexuality, that also make it even harder for me on my side. Plus I’m pretty much alone on this. Its been exhausting. I have to learn to keep my mouth shut….. yeah right. Lol :

Barb - posted on 12/12/2010

This is such an incredibly powerful thread.

For me, Petra sumed it up when she said: "I can't abstain from being a woman" To say they must is to make a judgment that what they are is immoral in the first place. If everyone is created by God then how are they imperfect if we are all created in his image?

Rebecca, your videos are great.
I must say my favorite part of the Rachel Maddow video was at 3:25 where he said: "we believe our children should not be recruited into something they don't believe in" I have a feeling religion is excluded from this. and how are you recruited into something you don't believe in?

A.N. Your love and willingness to see other perspectives leads me to believe that although your faith and convictions are strong, if this were to ever happen that you would end up being your child's greatest defender.

I'm reading what you are saying you would do, and it's honestly not me just not comprehending or not wanting to believe what you say is true. It's your passion that leads me to believe that you would be your son's greatest champion and god help the person who would come across you and try to deny your son anything.

With your convictions and tenacity i really hope you work for some good causes like the fight for cancer or universal health care because you just stick to your guns :)

Kimberly - posted on 12/12/2010

"Suppose someone is a pedophile. They were born that way. They are just sexually attracted to small children. Shouldn't they have legal rights? Should we change the laws to allow them to have sex with children?"

Homosexuals are often in loving, committed relationships where sex between two people is consensual.

Pedophiles prey on innocent children. They rape, traumatize and often kill these babies.

Are you seriously comparing the two?

Kimberly - posted on 12/12/2010

I've got awesome gaydar so, I'd prolly already know. I'd be overjoyed that he/she felt loved enough to tell me. I'd insist we go see Jimmy James perform! I love the gays. If Baby is happy, Mama is happy.

Petra - posted on 12/12/2010

@AN - the root of our disagreement is still the same. To you, this is a religious issue. To me, it is a human rights issue. Abstaining from acting like a homosexual, even if you are one (which is a-okay, apparently), is something I view as harmful. In your world, the reward is serving God and going to Heaven. In my world, there is no reward, only a long life of suffering, loneliness, guilt and failure. Your view still promotes intolerance - even a gay person has to be intolerant of themselves, and that's just effed up. It is still about choice - a nun, priest, they choose to devote their lives to God and take a vow of abstinence, to varying degrees of success. A homosexual doesn't choose to be born different, and is, according your rules, then forced to attempt to lead an affectionless, sexless life. Not the same thing, and very harmful to the individual who is forced to this standard.

I do have a question about Jesus - where is it written, because I honestly don't know, that Jesus was opposed to homosexuality? I've heard the bible quotes that prohibit it, but to my knowledge, the bible is the "word of God", and not the word of Jesus. If you view Jesus as your saviour, and he preached love, compassion and acceptance, please show me how he advocated homophobia and bigotry, because I've never heard of it. You've agreed that a lot of what is written in the bible doesn't have to be followed to the letter and is open to interpretation, yet your view that this does NOT apply to the passages about homosexuality is still solid - I just don't get it.

This is my biggest problem with religion - it is used to back up harmful, intolerant, judgmental views; whereas other areas of scripture are completely discarded due to their inconvenience, or lack of practicality. Why do you want to worship a figure who is so finicky about what variations of the human condition are acceptable? Did the Bible say that God will never give you more than you can handle, or is that some phrase passed around when people are faced with some sort of adversity? How do you know God isn't testing you and others like you to see if you can get over your fears and judgments and love and truly accept people who are different from you?

Sorry, my debate skills have derailed. More coffee needed. Hope to be more coherent soon.

Rebecca - posted on 12/11/2010

Just thought I'd add this video. It's Dan Savage, the outtyist out gay man around, talking about coming out to your evangelical parents and what he suggests you do.

Also, he talks about PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays), which even my liberal father really needed to join to figure out how best to support his son. I also attended some meetings and marched in Gay Pride in Toronto with my parents (and the rest of PFLAG). The most moving part of this was amongst the crazy club floats, the crowd kind of hushed a bit as the parents of kids marched with signs saying things like "I love my son's boyfriend". Grown men were shouting, "Thank you!" and "I love you!" to my mother. One woman came out of the crowd and approached my mother and asked for a hug. She gave my mother a flower and said, "Thank you, my mother won't do that anymore."

Now, this was over a decade ago and times have progressed. Still, I'll never forget the love and respect that crowd had for my parents for accepting and supporting their child who had come out to them.

A - posted on 12/11/2010

Thanks for sharing, Rebecca. I'm sure you can always find examples of the best and worst of every scenario. The gay celibate man in the first link I posted in my last post obviously shows a happy person who is content with the path he has chosen, whereas your friend shows how things can turn out different. I'm sure the mental problems makes everything worse. My mother suffered horribly from mental illness all of her life. Sadly, it was a blessing when she passed away because she wasn't tormented anymore. I know how hard it is to have a loved one who has a mental illness. Its so hard to help them in any way and hard to see them like that. Obviously religion can't be completely kept out of it from my view, but to me I would rather live 100 years in misery than an eternity of hell. Of course I'm happy with my life but that's still no guarantee that I'm going to avoid hell either! Scary thought. I'll keep your friend in my prayers because that's all I can do, and hope his life improves.

Rebecca - posted on 12/11/2010

I'm just wanted to add that I do know someone who is what he terms, a reformed homosexual. He heard this evangelist speaking on the radio (someone who, after I looked her up, showed very little background on the study of human sexuality or divinity, her background is being a popular Christian singer). Now, I can only speak about him and his experience. He is a sweet man but has always had an impressionable soul. Add to that, he began to suffer from some mental imbalances which have shown great response to medication though he refused to now take it because he believes prayer should heal him. This old friend of mine, used to be a bright, energetic, amazingly talented person with a huge future ahead of him. Since, being wrapped up in reforming his homosexuality and his refusal to take his meds, he has moved in with his parents, doesn't work and only goes to church. He is miserable, smokes all the time and never socializes. This is his life now and I would never wish it on my worst enemy much less the gentle, loving person he is.

I've known his brother for quite a long time and we've spoken several times about what he sees as the loss of his brother's future and happiness. His brother says, if he would just take his meds and accept himself for what he is he might just have a life again. Of course, we both know this will probably never happen.

Honestly, if that is the life I could expect for my reformed gay child, I'd rather they go to hell. Now, this is of course my opinion and I would never expect you to change your beliefs to bend to it. It's just my experience with someone who does not do well living a life of abstinence.

A - posted on 12/11/2010

I finally read the article Kati posted and there are a couple things I could argue (some of them because the author is a different religion than myself) but the overall message is very important, and I completely agree with the author that in regards to what Jesus taught us his two main principles were the same: Love God, and love your neighbor- and everything else follows.

A - posted on 12/11/2010

@ Petra

I disagree that you disagree that we agree to disagree. Just kidding! Lol! J

“You state that you view gays as being born with a predisposition toward homosexuality, and depending on the way they are raised, this predisposition acts with learned behaviour to determine whether a person actually becomes gay. “

Maybe the way I worded it was wrong, but let me try again at explaining it. I do agree people are born gay- they are automatically attracted to people of the same sex, just like I am attracted to people of the opposite sex. THAT part of it is not learned or taught. It is their nature. Can’t be changed. If they see someone of the same sex they are attracted to- that’s it, that’s how they feel. They can’t prevent that from happening. But what I was trying to say, is that when that occurs, that gay person does have the choice to ignore the feelings, not keep thinking about it, and focus their attention elsewhere (or choose to act on it).

“I think the reason you can chalk homosexuality up as something that can be repressed is because you view it as impulse based, learned behaviour.”

That’s just contradictory in itself; Something that is impulse is in-born and nature; not learned behavior. They are two different things so I have to disagree with you there. That’s not at all my feeling. Lol!

“This is not the same as being born a homosexual - this viewpoint does, however, work perfectly with your addictive personality example.”

Yes and no. The predisposition to being an addictive personality is real, its science. However, (and maybe you weren’t saying this) but it doesn’t have to be IN ADDITION to learned behavior for that person to be addicted to something. Of course, learned behavior CAN compound it, and of course it can be learned altogether with no born predisposition. But by itself a person can just struggle with addiction JUST because they were born that way. But that doesn’t mean they are doomed for the rest of their life to be addicted to something. Although they may be at some point in their life, they can learn to stop acting on that impulse. And I was just trying to use that in comparison to gays- that although they are born that way, and it will be a struggle, they don’t have to act on their urges.


“You could not abstain from having lustful thoughts for your husband - you could abstain from acting on them though, as you planned to marry him. There is no option like this for homosexuals in your world - the key to acceptance for you, is abject oppression. There is no reward (marriage, sex) for "good" homosexuals who manage to abstain for any period of time. Human sexuality is something that can not be suppressed indefinitely - it is unreasonable to think that it can be and unfair to impose this expectation on those who are simply born differently from you.”


Religion again always plays a factor. Let’s say I had decided to become a nun. I had not previous been married so therefore I had to remain celibate for the duration of my nunnery. While there will be times that maybe I could be walking down the street and see a very attractive man and think lustful thoughts about him, and I couldn’t have stopped it- there are measure I can take to prevent it from happening again. And of course once I did think it, I would have to push it out of my mind and think something else. I could try to avoid going to places where I will see someone I know I will be attracted to. If I have to go to the store I can look at objects and where I’m walking instead of at people, as much as possible. I could sing a song in my head so I’m focusing on the lyrics instead of thinking about who I’m seeing. Again, there’s no possible way I could completely avoid it all the time, and I wouldn’t expect a gay person to be able to either. But many people do live a celibate life. Just because we don’t, or it may be hard for us, doesn’t mean someone else didn’t successfully do it. Now, did that person probably think lustful thoughts at some point or another? I would think yes. Did they maybe pleasure themselves? Maybe yes, they did. But they ask for forgiveness, try harder not to do it next time, and move on. So again, I would not expect a gay person to be able to successfully suppress their feelings all the time without ever sinning, but I think its best to give it your best effort. And like I said before, I still believe its best for even straight people to do this. And you say there is no reward for “good” gay people doing this, but that’s where I disagree as well- because I think for someone to persevere through such a hard task, they would certainly be rewarded by God, whether in this life or the next. Its always going to be an ongoing battle though, with inevitable mistakes. This isn’t just an idea coming from a straight person. Gays themselves are choosing celibate and chaste lives for themselves.

In fact, I found an interesting article that interviews a gay priest who is celibate and his opinions on it. I encourage you to read it. I know you may disagree on the whole basis of it since its religious based but it does give the views of a gay man who is trying to live for God and control his urges.

http://www.bustedhalo.com/features/celib...

Here is also an article that explains some different groups that have come together, of Christian gays. The first group listed on the page are okay with acting on homosexuality, the other group- “Courage International Inc.” Is a group officially approved by the Church who wish to lead chaste and celibate lives.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_ro...

There is even a “Support Gay Catholic Priests” group on FB.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56...


@ Kati

You’re absolutely right that we should follow Christ alone. Humans are humans, including Paul. And the Bible is very hard to understand- you can take things out of context- like one sentence, instead of looking at the whole passage and getting a completely different meaning. You can take one passage and two different people get two completely different meanings from it. That’s what makes it so difficult and sometimes you have to take a leap of faith and hope that God will reveal to you the correct meaning of things. I also know God has much he hasn’t revealed to humans yet and us being human always have the room for error in our interpretation and understanding of his inspired word. I haven’t read the complete article yet but I look forward to doing so! Thanks for posting!

Rosie - posted on 12/11/2010

in my searching for info. for these debates i came across this article a while back. it's from a minister, and her views on homosexuality. i'll put up the link, and i really do adivse reading the whole thing, but there is one part that really stuck out to me that i'll copy here.


The final Biblical text that deals with homosexual behavior is found in Paul's letter to the Romans, in which he unequivocally condemns homosexual behavior. The background for his understanding was the common Roman practice of older males 'keeping' young boys for sexual exploitation, which he was right to condemn.

But even if this were not the case, even if Paul knew about and condemned all forms of homosexual behavior, even the most loving, what then? Paul also told women not to teach, not to cut their hair, not to speak in church. Do we follow his teaching? He told slaves to obey their masters not once, but five times -- are we prepared to say today, as Southern slave owners argued 150 years ago, that slavery is God's will?

The fact is, I am not a disciple of Paul. I am an admirer of Paul, but a disciple of Jesus Christ. Paul himself says that we should not follow him, but Christ alone. So I come back, again to the life and teaching of Jesus as the center of my faith. In that light all other biblical teaching must be critiqued. There are seven passages about homosexual behavior in the Bible, all of which are debatable as to their meaning for us today. There are thousands of references in the Bible that call us, as Jesus commands, to love our neighbor, to work for peace and reconciliation among all people, and to leave judgment to God.

http://www.jesusmcc.org/resource/rev_jam...

Petra - posted on 12/11/2010

AN - I do have to disagree with your statement that you and I agree, haha.



You state that you view gays as being born with a predisposition toward homosexuality, and depending on the way they are raised, this predisposition acts with learned behaviour to determine whether a person actually becomes gay. This is not the same as being born a homosexual - this viewpoint does, however, work perfectly with your addictive personality example.



I think the reason you can chalk homosexuality up as something that can be repressed is because you view it as impulse based, learned behaviour. This is not the case. It is like asking someone who was born with autism, or dyslexia, not to act on their disabilities. It is impossible not to act on something that is not a repressable behaviour - I can't abstain from being a woman; my biological, physiological and psychological makeup prevent this from ever being a possibility. Treating homosexual "behaviour" as something that, should you simply abstain, is forgivable, is not the same as accepting homosexuality as a part of human nature. You could not abstain from having lustful thoughts for your husband - you could abstain from acting on them though, as you planned to marry him. There is no option like this for homosexuals in your world - the key to acceptance for you, is abject oppression. There is no reward (marriage, sex) for "good" homosexuals who manage to abstain for any period of time.



I can't say for certain that a child would or wouldn't be okay with their parent viewing them as failing, sinning, causing another to sin, and thus harming, in loving their partner. You can tell your child this, and they could take whatever love you have to give anyway. Or, they could tell you to bugger off because your judgment of their morals and behaviour is unacceptable when it comes to an undeniable facet of human nature. Human sexuality is something that can not be suppressed indefinitely - it is unreasonable to think that it can be and unfair to impose this expectation on those who are simply born differently from you. Your stance is still judgmental and intolerant, even though you would open your arms to someone you love who struggled with their sexuality.



I hope I worded that in a way that it makes sense to you. As I said earlier, your views are far warmer and more forgiving than a lot of Christians I've had this argument with, but they still end in judgment of homosexuality as a sin, and acting on that sin as harmful.

C. - posted on 12/11/2010

Well I'm pretty sure everyone on here knows how I feel about whether people are 'born gay' or not, so I won't go into that right now.. But I will say that if my son, or any future children I may have, ever came to me and told me he was gay, I'd still love him no matter what. He's still my son, my flesh and blood and even though I may not agree with it, I wouldn't judge him. I would keep my personal opinions about it to myself and let it be what it is. Nothing can ever change the love I have for my son. There are far worse things he could choose in life, IMO.

A - posted on 12/11/2010

@ Rebecca

Sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out on my last post there... I know I directed it towards you, but you're absolutely right that you had already agreed to disagree with me. I started off responding to your analogy, and as I kept typing I think I forgot I was directing it at you and not debating in general anymore. So sorry for that :) And as Joy pointed out I would like to thank you for being so respectful in debating with me.

Rebecca - posted on 12/10/2010

Thanks Joy. It's a delicate subject and when I was a bit younger I might have just said things as intolerant towards those who thought differently as the worst of the gay slander that's out there. It just never seems to go anywhere except to make everyone pissed off.

You know I just saw Rachel Maddow interview someone who is proposing a law to put gays to death in Uganda.



If she can have a even toned, fairly unheated discussion with this tyrant, we can all have a discussion about the subject with people who are really not all that different just look at it from a different set of values and life experience.

Joy - posted on 12/10/2010

Rebecca, the black / white thing...that's probably the best argument I've heard on this subject so far. Seriously, awesome analogy. A person can't help being gay any more than they could help being black or white or brown.
I have a feeling that AN understands that part of it and based purely on all the reading I've done here, I still think if her son came to her and said he's gay, she would probably still have a loving and open relationship with him. I think it's all about accepting truth, our own, and our loved ones. If AN's son's truth is that he's gay, she'll accept it. If her truth is that she doesn't approve of the lifestyle, she should be able to express it to him without it ruining their relationship. I have to say that it's really odd for me to be "defending" someone who doesn't approve of homosexuality. That's a point in my life that I'm passionate about. My brother is gay and so are several of my other family members. I have learned from watching my family react that a person can disapprove of part of someone (or their lifestyle), without disapproving of all of them, and still love them just the same, if that makes sense. I still don't agree with AN's view on this subject. It's a subject that people who feel strongly in their beliefs (she in hers and I in mine) will never see eye to eye on. And it's about progress, not perfection. I think it's better she feel the way she does, than to hate gays and declare that she'd disown her son and proclaim him dead to her if he were gay. I mean, her ideas may still seem completely opposite to ours but at least she's not TOO far off. And I have to say that I'm really pleased to see that this has been such a respectful debate and it hasn't gotten cut-throat but it hasn't lost any passion from either side.
Kudos to us :)

Rebecca - posted on 12/10/2010

Um, let me say again, I do understand your opinion. I agree to disagree. You just kept trying to understand why a child wouldn't want to go forward with a relationship with a parent who felt the same way you did. So, I tried to explain the a lot of gay children's stance on the kind of relationship you suggest is the kind you'd find optimal given the circumstance.

I know I won't convince you of anything, you have very set views on the matter. All you can do in that situation is try your best to convey a position that is so far off each other's life experience and hope others might get something from it.

I get you AN, it doesn't have to be explained that you would not, in your opinion, limit your relationship with your child. I'm not sure you understand that most self respecting gay people would do their best with what might be looked at as a conditional love but usually, in my experience, find it too hard to do it without a great deal of personal pain.

A - posted on 12/10/2010

@Rebecca



“You tell him, as the more accepting members of your church and community suggest, that you will indeed continue loving him but you can never accept his choice to be black. In fact, you'd prefer it if he'd cover his skin and straighten his hair because he isn't really black if he doesn't show it. Would you then expect that child to want to foster the relationship with his mother given those conditions?”



I think the first thing I need to address here is the second sentence- how “he isn’t really black if he doesn’t show it”. Now, changing this scenario back to the gay scenario- I would never want my son to say he’s not gay, or act like its not in his nature to be attracted to people of the same sex. I would never want him to hide it or be ashamed of it. I would want him to learn and grow from it.



Secondly- the first sentence I took from you, about “never accept his choice to be black”. I looked up a couple different synonyms for “accept” and honestly it could be taken a couple different ways. Could I ever think it was morally right to be in a homosexual relationship with someone? No. I don’t think I would ever “accept” that. But could I “acknowledge” it? Or “understand” it (some of the other synonyms that came up)? Yes. I could “understand” why my son would choose that. I could acknowledge it and not just ignore it and pretend like it never happened or I ever had a son.



Thirdly- Would I expect my child to want to foster a relationship given those conditions? Well first off, I don’t think it would be like me giving my son any “conditions”. I would have a conversation with him, and let him know HOW I feel. I would let him know that I would think its best if he is celibate, and explain my moral feelings on the subject. That’s all, basically. Its not like I would say “If you do decide to be in a relationship, I don’t want to see or your partner.” I wouldn’t even have a problem with them coming over to my house together. I probably wouldn’t even bring it up again unless he was specifically asking for my advice. I would do more behind the scenes work in the form of prayer. So, would I expect my son to want to have a relationship given those “Conditions”? I don’t know why he wouldn’t want to. So my answer is yes.



I’m trying very hard to understand everyone else’s view on this. I feel like I have repeated myself several times (and you probably feel the same way). I feel like I’m making the effort, but I guess my question to you is, are you making that effort? I’m not saying you should “agree” with it- but just understand it? I guess the same why I look at this whole gay argument thing is the same way I look at a debate- I don’t have to agree with the other side to understand them or have a conversation (or loving relationship) with that person. My whole bottom line point has been consistent throughout- that you CAN have a loving relationship with someone even if you don’t agree. If gay people who have the option of still seeing their parents, and taking their partner over to their house, and having a good time, and knowing their parents still love them- even though they do not agree- I don’t know why they would choose not to and say “its my way or no way”. Many people think its Christians who are unwilling to be open and loving towards gays (which honestly I’m sure is true in many cases). But if the parent was willing to continue it and not constantly berate their child for their choices, I would think it’s the gay person, in that instance, that is being close-minded and unloving to the Christian. It would then be the gay person not being able to get past their parents views and the child missing out on the love their parents still have to give. I think some of you have known gay people in where this has happened- either the parents or the gay child called it quits. I’m simply pointing out this does not HAVE to be how it happens.



All I’m asking from those of you who disagree with my moral objections to homosexuality, is to do what Joy did earlier in the post. She said (minus the pedophilia argument) that she could understand where I’m coming from. She didn’t agree with it- but she understood it. And that’s all I would ask of you guys, and that’s all I would be asking of my son if he were gay, and that’s hopefully all he would ask of me- which I could certainly do.





The only possible other way for me to explain it right now is trying to leave religion completely out of it. Since that’s a hard hurdle for us to get over, I’ll give it a shot. Lets say there’s a breastfeeding mother –lets call her Mother #1-(who in this instance would be the “gay” part), and a bottle-feeding mother- Mother #2- who would be my part or the Christian part.



So, the two mothers are having a discussion about their babies. Mother #1 says “I love breastfeeding its just so natural to me and instinctual and such a bonding experience with my baby. When I had my child, I just knew and felt the urge to breastfeed her- and when she was placed on my stomach she found her way to my breast, all on her own. It was such an amazing experience, and I can’t imagine feeding my baby any other way.”



Mother #2 says – “I just don’t agree with breastfeeding. I think it wrong for a woman to do nowdays. We should take advantage of modern technology and feed our babies by bottle- so the woman doesn’t have to do all the work herself and doesnt have to go through pain, or pump, and then she can work and isn’t stuck at home. A woman in todays society shouldn’t let herself be held back by children and her family. Plus, breastfeeding just seems gross to me. To have my child suckle at my breast seems wrong and sexual, and I would have to expose myself if I fed my baby in public. I can’t imagine breastfeeding.”



Now, both mothers clearly disagree on how their child should be fed. However, they move on and remain friends. I’m sure we all have a friend who has disagreed with us in the breastfeeding/bottle feeding area and it didn’t cause an end in the relationship. I’m not trying to start a debate on that, but I just wanted to try and show a different, non-religious argument that illustrates how two people can disagree and still have a relationship.

Rebecca - posted on 12/10/2010

You know, AN, Petra K. explained it better than I did.

I was thinking about it, in the sense of how to explain it the way you are trying to explain it, as a hypothetical. I guess the closest I could come to explaining the viewpoint that is being expressed.

So here goes, let's say your son came to you one day and told you, despite you thinking he was caucasian, he was actually black. Now, you had been unaware of this, who knows maybe you saw a hint of it, even tried to break him of it by bleaching his skin or straightening his hair, but it is not something your community accept and your church says being black is a sin. Your child comes to you and asks you to accept him as a black man, for what he is since really it is no different than the child you knew only the skin colour is different. You tell him, as the more accepting members of your church and community suggest, that you will indeed continue loving him but you can never accept his choice to be black. In fact, you'd prefer it if he'd cover his skin and straighten his hair because he isn't really black if he doesn't show it. Would you then expect that child to want to foster the relationship with his mother given those conditions?

That's the way I see it, I know you do not see it that way. However, I see you desire to understand this point of view and wanted to present it in the best way I could think of.

A - posted on 12/10/2010

@ Krista

I see what you are saying. But again, just based on my own personal beliefs its better for even straight people to remain celibate. Of course not all of us can do that that; but some people can. Its better because then that person can focus his life on serving God, instead of having to split himself between serving God and his family obligations. Again, not all people were built to have such self control. Which is why many Christians marry. So the next argument I see you saying from that would be, what about those gays who cannot control themselves? And my answer for that would be- God will never give you more than you can handle. If your heart is in line with God’s teachings, and you ask him for something will faith, he can give it to you have help you with whatever you are struggling with.

You also say that none of those examples are comparable because they do not hurt other people, for example. But from my perspective, it would hurt both the gay person and their partner spiritually. Not only in this scenario would by gay child be sinning, but every time he initiated sex with his partner he would also be guilty of causing someone else to sin. Although we can’t be held completely liable for other peoples actions we should do our best to be good role models.

But again the problem lies with the initial thinking it is a sin, which would be even more exhausting to argue than this has been! Lol

@ Petra
What you fail to see is that you and I completely agree. You say,

“if you understand that homosexuality is a part of a person's nature, I don't see how you can reject that aspect of them in the same breath.”

But I absolutely DO see how homosexuality is a part of that person’s nature and their very core! I do. Its my view that we are ALL born like this, with original sin, meaning we WILL sin. We are predisposed to it. I think being born gay is just like any other person who is born or raised in an environment that causes them to have a specific weakness. Its scientific fact that people are born predisposed to an addictive personality. That doesn’t give that person the right to be addicted to drugs or alcohol or whatever -just because they are severely tempted to do it. They still have the ability to say “No, I’m not going to do this, I need help, I’m going to stop.”

Not only are we born with original sin, but we are taught to sin. Just look at your own life and childhood. I’m sure there can be an example of something that happened to you that automatically taught and conditioned you to behave a certain way. But then we grow up- we realize- hey, that was wrong. Maybe your parents fought in front of you- yelling and screaming. Maybe that’s the only way you knew how to communicate when you disagreed with someone, and carried it in to your relationships/marriage. But at some point you learn that its much better and more effective to control yourself, listen, and have a conversation.

I can never completely relate to being gay. But I have struggled (almost) my entire life with the sin of lust. I’m still not perfect, but I’m getting better. When I was young, I was raped by a family member for many years. Sorry if this is TMI, but those experiences taught me to be aware of my sexuality and therefore I struggled with lust, masturbation, inappropriate thoughts. For a long time I found nothing wrong with it. It’s a part of who I was. I had be doing it for so long it was just honesty even habit for me. Sometimes thoughts just pop into my head, seemingly out of nowhere. I can’t stop the though from happening in that instance, but I can choose to ignore it and focus my attention elsewhere and not continue thinking about it. I always knew (to me) it was wrong but it took me a long time to want to change my behavior and stop. Its certainly not easy though.

Now that, compared to the struggles of a gay person, is nothing. But I just wanted to illustrate how we all struggle- in one area or another, and just because we enjoy something, or its “nature”, or habit, or its learned behavior- we still have the choice to act on those urges and feeling or not. Usually doing what’s right is never the easy way. Its hard. It requires us being conscious of our behavior and dedicating ourselves to changing it.

I know you still don’t think homosexuality is wrong, and because of our differing morals we’ll never see eye-to-eye, but hopefully that explains my perspective a little better on how I still think homosexuality can be a part of someones nature and it still be sinful.

Jennifer - posted on 12/10/2010

I wouldn't care one way or another. I will love my child no matter who they fall in love with. BUT I will be upset for my child because they aren't allowed the same freedoms others are. I know how hard it would be for them. THAT would upset me. Nobody wants to see their child have to go through so much hardship.

Kim - posted on 12/10/2010

Inwardly I would be saying "OH CRAP!!!" but outwardly I would be telling him/her that I am happy s/he felt like s/he could come to me and tell me and I would be supportive. I have a BIL that is gay, I knew before he did. I feel bad he has never come out to his family even though he brings his SO with him whenever he visits. They all know though. And my cousin's kid just announced she has felt like a he her whole life and has decided to go into HS as a boy. Changed her name and everything. I would just want them to be happy.

Petra - posted on 12/10/2010

@ A N - I appreciate what you're trying to do, but none of the examples you gave are relevant to the discussion of homosexuality, which is where we are forever going to butt heads. Homosexuality is not a character flaw, a moral shortcoming, a lifestyle choice, or an impluse that can be ignored. Homosexuality is a part of that person - the same way intelligence and sense of humor are hard-wired into us. By rejecting your child's homosexuality, you are rejecting a core part of your child. Your lack of acceptance of this vital piece of human nature is a rejection of them as a person. If you are not accepting of a person based on their choices in life - fine, that's your prerogative. But to tell your gay child, "I Iove you, but I don't agree with or accept your lifestyle'" is just cold. Your attitude is much more forgiving than a lot of Christians I have come across - but it still holds that homosexuality is a sin that can not be accepted. If you understand that homosexuality is a part of a person's nature, I don't see how you can reject that aspect of them in the same breath. Your proviso that you can accept it, so long as they don't act on it, is utterly ridiculous - you are setting your child up to fail, and you don't appear to be concerned with the impact this could have on them.

If, some-freakin-how, my boy becomes a religious bigot (or a liar, theif, drunk, dead-beat dad), I would not be accepting of his attitude or beliefs because those are CHOICES. I don't have to agree with poor choices or bad attitudes, nor do I have to accept and/or encourage them. He is being raised in a home by educated, loving, responsible, open-minded parents with gay family members (who he can grow up with and see, first-hand, that there is absolutely nothing wrong or amoral/immoral about them), and finally, with an intentional lack of the religious indoctrination that creates the narrow-minded views which serve to promote intolerance. I fully expect that my boy will be kind, smart and loving and I will embrace any potential male partner as I would a female partner.

You choose to agree with intolerant belief systems; your child will not choose to be gay.

Krista - posted on 12/10/2010

A N: There is a difference between being gay, and the examples you are using.

In all of those examples, you are talking about people being dishonest, or directly hurting someone. You are talking about malicious behaviour that is designed to harm and to hurt.

If someone is gay, and decides that (like most of us), they want to be in a relationship with someone they love and be able to make love with that person, then how is that person being dishonest? Who is being directly hurt? How is that behaviour malicious and designed to harm?

If two gay people get married and make love, it harms absolutely nobody -- no more than when you and your husband make love.

THAT is why so many of us say that it is rather cruel to tell a gay child that you want them to stay celibate. You are not asking him to refrain from a behaviour that actively hurts other people or is dishonest or malicious. You are asking him to spend the rest of his life, loveless and alone, simply because YOU are not comfortable with it. And that is not fair.

Rosie - posted on 12/10/2010

AN- cheating on a test isn't part of who your child is. breaking the law isn't part of who your child is. being gay is part of a person. it's not something they can turn off and on, it's not something they can control. you can't control your sexuality can you? why presume that homosexuals can?



when you reject that part of your childs life, it's like you are rejecting who they ARE to their very core.

Gina - posted on 12/10/2010

Honestly, I can't quickly say that I wouldn't care or that it wouldn't matter. It probably would matter, but I know that I would accept him and nothing could make me love him less.

A - posted on 12/10/2010

@ Petra

I know part of your response was directed at Rebecca. But I really want to understand your line of thinking, and hers. And since I couldn’t understand it the way Rebecca explained it, maybe you can be more successful. I really do try to be open minded, despite what people might think. lol

I don’t see how -

“It IS a rejection of your child, even if you choose to maintain a relationship in spite of your disapproval of their "lifestyle".

Are you saying I must approve of EVERYTHING my child does all the time, in order to love and respect him/her?

If my son cheats on a test in school, I must either accept that behavior or reject him? I’m not supposed to teach him that its wrong?

If my daughter gets in an altercation at school with another girl, and she slaps my daughter- and my daughter slaps her back- I’m supposed to be okay with that and be proud of my daughter, because if I do not it sends the message I’m rejecting her?

It me, what you are saying is that I should agree with my son’s morals. If my son has morals that don’t align with mine then I must change them to love him.

So, lets say you have a son. He grows up. He decides, that although its against the law, he thinks there is nothing wrong with robbing banks for a living to make money. Would you approve of his behavior? Because those are his morals, so you must either agree with him or you don’t love him anymore.

Or maybe your son sleeps around. A different woman every night. Maybe he gets a few of them pregnant then skips out on his obligations to the woman and the child. Would you approve of that? Because if you didn’t, even if you THOUGHT it was wrong, you would be rejecting your child and not loving him anymore.

Maybe your son grows up and anytime you ever talk to him or see him, its just a bunch of lies coming out of his mouth. Maybe he lies and says he has no money for rent, and you give him some, and then turns out he spent it on alcohol to get drunk. Maybe he says he will pay you back but never does. To him, there’s nothing wrong with that. Those are HIS morals. So you better start believing them otherwise you don’t love your son!

Lets flip this around. Maybe your son grows up to think acting on gay feelings is wrong. What would you do then? Because you say that I should change my morals to align with my sons. So now with that line of thinking you should change your mind and start to believe homosexuality is wrong. Otherwise you don’t love him anymore. You can’t just disapprove and still love him. Or is it just that YOU are right and everyone else is wrong?

None of this makes any sense to me. Please explain it to me. To me, as a mother and a Christian, it is my responsibility to teach my children to respect others and to be honest and to not give in to anger and violence. Among many other things! I would teach my child these things and the difference between right and wrong, not because I reject him and don’t love him, but because I DO love him, and don’t want him to sin. From my perspective, a sin is a sin. Whether its lying to someone, stealing from a store, or acting on gay feelings. Its not JUST the law that determines what is right or wrong in my opinion. While my child is growing up in my house I have a responsibility to try and instill my values in them- and also let my child respectfully question them and come to his own conclusions. While I would still enforce certain rules while he was still living in my house (just like any parent would- whether its cleaning their room, doing chores, homework, no drugs, etc) when he is a grown adult he can choose what he wants. That doesn’t mean I’m always going to be proud of what he does choose. It doesn’t, to me, mean I love him any less. My son will fail. My son will sin. I don’t see how, when he does, I should just let it slide and ignore it. I don’t see why my son (or anyone) should expect me to change my morals all of a sudden because, if I didn’t, I wouldn’t love my son anymore. Did that just simply mean, in your perspective, my morals were wrong from the beginning, all together? And perhaps I never loved my son at all? The same morals that teach me to treat others as we would want to be treated (and yes, I would want someone to tell me if they thought I was committing sin), to be honest, not to murder, not to commit adultery, and that greed, anger, lust, sloth, gluttony, deceit are all things that defile us? Should I then never try to teach my son any of those things, out of fear that he one day won’t believe in them? I should just let him run amok doing whatever he wants so I don’t reject him? My son could choose any number of things to disagree with me on when he grows up. I can’t predict them and act accordingly. All I can do, is to do everything that I possibly can to know whether or not my morals are right and then pass them on to my children.

A - posted on 12/10/2010

I was just asking further about the pedophile thing to see if there were some other way to argue it. But the arguments saying they aren't comparable are good. Don't know where I can go from there to argue it. lol

@ Krista.... I guess I married a creepy bastard :) My husband and I feel in love when I was 15 and he was 27. We didn't have sex until I was over 18, but we are married now. We've been together 7 years and married three and have one child together and are very happy.

Corinne - posted on 12/10/2010

I'd be genuinely happy that they'd found someone they loved. Gay, straight or bi, doesn't bother me one tiny bit.

Petra - posted on 12/10/2010

Krista - thank you for your kick-ass debating. I was reading and gasping in my head and you saved the day.

@ Rebecca - I agree with everything that you're saying. Thinking your child would accept your views that they are committing moral wrongs and failing you by not abstaining is ridiculous. You want to hold these views - fine. Do not expect your child to respect them, or view them as separate and apart from your love. It IS a rejection of your child, even if you choose to maintain a relationship in spite of your disapproval of their "lifestyle". I absolutely hate it when religious justifications denote homosexuality as a "lifestyle" choice. If you can accept that people are born as homosexuals, why not make that leap and accept that people should live full, unhindered lives as homosexuals - and not abstain as though their orientation is so deviant as to be on par with paedophilia. They are not letting anyone down, God or otherwise, by acting on their attractions to the same sex - I think they are invalidating your belief system and this is where the fear of acceptance comes in.

Like so many other mums on here have said (and it makes me sooooo happy to see) it is a complete non-issue. I'd be in there with Jenny and Julianne saying that's cool, want to talk about it? There's no need to make a special case out of it - it only becomes a big deal if you make it one. Our generation has definitely paved the way for future generations to come out, unafraid and without fear of discrimination. I'm proud to be from Canada where a homosexual union is just as legal as a hetero one, and not at all uncommon.

Jessica - posted on 12/10/2010

Haven't read other responses yet, but I would absolutely not care, and love and support them the same as I would anyway- they're my children!

My brother is gay and "came out" in middle/high school. He and my dad had always had a strained relationship but after that it was never the same, though truly I credit my ex-step mom (she was married to my dad and a part of our lives for 10 years; they divorced my senior year of college, thank God) for ruining their relationship. She went out of her way to make her disapproval of my brother known, she didn't even try to treat him the same as me or my sister. She was super religious so she thought of him as one big walking sin. She influenced my dad in this way of thinking, though my dad by himself was never as fanatic as she was. My mom on the other hand, was always completely accepting and supportive of my brother, and to this day she is the one he keeps in contact with.

Tara - posted on 12/10/2010

@AN
Having been a victim of a pedophile (cdn. spelling) and also being friends with many gay people, couples included. I would have to argue the same as Krista, you really can't compare the two.
The act of preying on young children, who are not in a position to consent to sex with anyone, let alone an adult, is completely different than two people of the same sex falling in love and having sex. Putting gay people and their right to be with each other in a loving respectful, mutually consenting sexual relationship into the same boat with those who get off by exploiting our young is like putting heterosexual people into the same boat as people who prefer bestiality to human sex. They are incomparable. One has nothing to do with the other. Plain and freaking simple.
Who cares who has sex, as long as they are both consenting and of age to consent? Really is it anyone else's business?

Krista - posted on 12/10/2010

Let's say there is a 15 year old girl, in a relationship with a 27 year old male. They love each other and want to express their love physically. Is the male a pedophile? Does sex actually have to take place for him to be a pedophile or just wanting to with someone who is so young considered pedophilia? Or is this not pedophilia all together?

Like Rebecca said, older men who are interested in teenagers are not pedophiles but ephebophiles (or as I like to call them, "creepy bastards".)

A 15-year old is not legally ABLE to give consent, hence, it is statutory rape. That is also why many places have a "Romeo and Juliet" clause so that you don't treat a 17-year old guy having sex with his 15-year old girlfriend the same as you would a 37-year old guy having sex with his 15-year old girlfriend.

Julianne - posted on 12/09/2010

If my child came to me and told me that they were gay. I would say, "ok, thats cool. Do you want to talk about it." As far as life partners go, you can't help who you fall in love with. Even if i thought homosexuality was wrong(which i dont) i would still per perfectly fine with it. Everyone has their own decisions about their lives, and it is in no way my place to judge them. Even my own child.

Stifler's - posted on 12/09/2010

There are paedophiles and convicted paedophiles. Paedophilia is a mental illness/liking children, there are also crimes relating to the execution of their feelings towards children.

Rebecca - posted on 12/09/2010

Actually people who are interested in teens actually aren't called pedophiles. They are called ephebophiles. I heard about this in some article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophili...

Personally, if there is no consent, it's rape.

A - posted on 12/09/2010

Okay now it makes sense why you said that.

So, just for the sake of argument and out of sheer curiosity, what would you think about the following scenario:

Let's say there is a 15 year old girl, in a relationship with a 27 year old male. They love each other and want to express their love physically. Is the male a pedophile? Does sex actually have to take place for him to be a pedophile or just wanting to with someone who is so young considered pedophilia? Or is this not pedophilia all together?

Just curious what you think about that.

Krista - posted on 12/09/2010

No, that was my point, A N. My point was that gay couples have no more to do with pedophilia than interracial couples have to do with necrophilia. In both cases, you're comparing consenting couples, to some sicko having sex with a person who is incapable of consenting.

So yeah, someone "could" use that as an argument. But it'd be a completely absurd argument and anybody with three brain cells to rub together would be able to very quickly point out the absurdity of that argument.

A - posted on 12/09/2010

Krista- I see what you were saying. And I wasn't even trying to say that I agreed with the argument that I gave- I was just saying someone *could* use that as an argument. Thats all :)



And did you mean to use a word other than necrophiliac? Because I'm not sure what having sex with dead bodies has to do with biracial couples...? Maybe you meant to use something else... ? lol!

Krista - posted on 12/09/2010

Your logic is still flawed, A N. Two gay males having consensual sex is an utterly victimless act. Not so with pedophilia.

Using your argument, I could say that biracial adult couples should not be allowed to marry, because then a necrophiliac could say that the law should be changed for them.

It's really not that slippery a slope OR that gray of an area. If you are a consenting adult, and you want to enter into a relationship or marriage with another consenting adult (or adults), then you should be allowed to do so by law. If one of the parties is unconsenting (or incapable of giving consent), or is not a legal adult, then you should not be allowed to have sex with or marry that party.

I mean, it's really not that complicated.

A - posted on 12/09/2010

Rebecca-

I think I’m starting to understand a little better what you are saying. I think you mean, because of the parents views, the child could not accept those terms; knowing that the parent still disapproves, and therefore the relationship would dissolve.

I agree if that were to happen that would be an absolute shame. A mothers love is strong and to lose her child would be horrible, and it would be horrible for the child as well. And I hope that would never happen with my son, whether he was gay or not. So I understand with what you are saying- in that its important to try and maintain a loving relationship with our children. But if my child could not accept my views on the matter and still maintain a relationship with me because of it, I couldn’t just give up my moral beliefs. I would still have to hold true to them. What a tragedy it would be- but from my Christian perspective I have to put serving God before making any other human happy, however heartbreaking it would be. And honestly I think it’s a tragedy that could be avoided. Its one-sided for the gay child to expect loving acceptance of HIS beliefs, but then not be accepting of the parents MORAL beliefs. It has to be a two way street- both trying to make it work even when they disagree. With how terrible it is for a parent to disown her child for being gay, its equally wrong for the child to disown the parent for not agreeing with them.

And just to clarify what I meant by the whole pedophile thing- I simply was trying to use the logic of a gay person and show its flaws. A gay person could argue “I was born this way, and I should be able to have a gay relationship without persecution, and the laws should be changed to accommodate me so I can have equal rights and gay marriage.” Using that line of thinking, a pedophile could argue, “I was born to like young children, and I should be able to have sex with them because its just the way I was born. And if the law says its illegal because a young person can’t consent, then the law should be changed to accommodate me.” So I wasn’t trying to say the pedophilia is okay, or that gay people are comparable to people who prey upon innocent children, but rather show how some people find fault with those arguments when gay people present them. I know you still think its apples and oranges, but I wanted to explain so people didn’t think I thought gay people are comparable to rapists.

Anyway, I agree- I hope maybe this has opened someone’s eyes one way or the other. Guess I wasn’t quite finished before. LOL

Sal - posted on 12/09/2010

gay is just that, no big deal i would be sad as i know they will face prejiduce and be hasseled for somethng they can't help but for me and them i will still just love them the same...i had this conversation with my brother inlaw (and i think may be he should get used to the idea if you get my drift) he said that no son of his was going to be gay, but once he put a name and face to it he wasn;t so harsh....

Rebecca - posted on 12/09/2010

With respect, you misunderstand me. I don't think you would end the relationship. I was trying to explain that many of the gay people I know, would consider your idea of how the relationship would change should you know their personal truth as an immovable thing. I'm trying to assert that a child may not want to have a relationship with you if deep in your heart you believe their union with their partner no different than that of a pedophile. It might mean that children in a similar dynamic as you presented have been known to shut their parents out because the changes are something they view as an unhealthy one.

You do not know me personally no, I know a wide variety of gay people and Christians. Believe it or not, I even booked a gig touring Europe in a musical that had a Christian message (a gig is a gig). I've met many Christians who have moved on from the ideas you've presented about children coming out and the "I can love them but not accept their chosen lifestyle" idea. In fact, I find less young gay people now who have had to deal with this than when I was first coming up in an industry where out gay people are heavily involved. My desire to speak out to you and others has less to do with avenging some gay friend of mine than fearing for the loss of the parent/child relationship when the child looks around and realizes that their parents are in the minority. That there are people, relatives, even churches that will accept them coming out fully, without the judgement of the "I can love my child but not accept their sexuality" dogma.

Thanks for speaking your mind AN. Who knows someone might have taken something from our debate that changed their minds, made them think differently (on either side), even if we didn't.

A - posted on 12/09/2010

Rebecca-

I don't base my morals and religious beliefs on what society says I should do. If some Christians choose to change their belief and think acting on homosexuality is suddenly okay now that someone they know is gay- then that is their choice. My morals don't change just because my circumstance changes. The only time I change my morals is if I learn something new (like in the Bible I didn't know before) that changes my understanding of it.

To me, just because you don't approve of someones decision doesn't mean you have to miss out on a relationship with your child. My child can be gay, I not agree with it, and still have a relationship with them and love them. In your story, you're saying I would be missing out on the celebration of the persons love and the wedding, etc, and all those special things. But to me- someone committing themselves to a sinful lifestyle is nothing worth missing out on. Just because I wouldnt support my sons marriage doesnt mean I wouldnt still have a relationship with him afterwards. Even if HE held a grudge against me, I would hope that I have raised him right and he would forgive me and continue the relationship (just like I would forgive him for sinning).

If my daughter met a man who was married to someone else, fell in love with that man, and he ended up leaving his wife, divorcing her, and marrying my daughter- I would not support that marriage either. That doesn't mean I wouldn't love her and still talk to her and respect her. No, I probably wouldn't go to her wedding either. But that doesn't mean its over between us.

To give a more personal example, my mother passed away almost three years ago. My dad was left a widower. He met an older widow at his church. They fell in love and have been together ever since. Now, they live together and they are sexually active. It is wrong! Even though they love each other- they need to get married. Then being 50 or 60 years old doesn’t change the rules. Premarital sex is wrong. Now I love my dad dearly, and I am very happy he has found a partner who treats him well (my mom and dad had a lot of problems in their marriage). It was actually cute to see my father behaving like a little kid around his love. But there are engaged, and I would say something like “when ar you getting married, you need to” to him. I just had to let him know he needs to do the right thing. Now, I didn’t lecture him day in and day out about it- but I have brought it up (my sister gets on his case all the time… lol). I still love and respect him and his love, and we all get along very well. Recently I’ve been praying for him to make the right decision, and I think this Christmas he is finally going through with the marriage. There’s no hate there between us, even though he knows how I feel.

Another example is before my husband and I got married we lived together. Honestly, we weren’t sexually active at that time, but we did live in the same house. His parents called us over to give us a lecture on how we were living in sin. Even if we weren’t sexually active, they said, it was still causing people to gossip about us, and therefore we were causing THEM to sin. I was young at the time. I remember crying. I was angry and mad. Who were there to tell me how to live my life? But now, as an adult, and as a mother, and as a stronger Christian, I do not hold a grudge against them for it. I know they were honestly trying to show us how to be better Chrisitians. They did it out of love. And even after that fiasco we never stopped the relationship and we got over it and moved on. I’m sure glad they didn’t change their morals just to suit us and our lifestyle. I’m glad they had enough faith in their religion to hold true to their values.

To me it seems like you feel if someone thinks acting on homosexuality is wrong and sinful they MUST terminate their relationship with that person, and be hateful and mean to them. That simply isn't true. Its sad that people DO do that, but thats not how it has to be. LIke I said, my husband's aunt is gay. She and her partner know we disagree with their lifestyle, but he and I still have a good relationship with each other. We send christmas cards to each other, talk all the time, tell each other we love the other.

Of course I don't know you very well, but I have a feeling (and again correct me if I'm wrong) that you base a lot of your opinions on YOUR personal experience. There have just been a couple comments here and there you've said that have made me wonder... like "something a mother can't get past" and things like that- that lead me to believe you've known someone who was gay and their parents couldn't get past it and they therefore missed out on a relationship with them. And that's unfortunate.

But our children will ALWAYS do things that, in our mind, are wrong. That doesn't mean our love should stop for them. It doesn't mean we should let anger get in the way of our love for them. But at the same time, it doesn't mean we have to agree with what they are doing. They aren't mutually exclusive. I don't know how many times I have to say that.

I feel like we're getting no where with this debate between us so I'm going to end my side of it. It doesn't mean I'm ashamed or that I think I'm wrong or have admitted defeat. I simply don't know how I can explain it any better. It makes sense, even as I say it/ type it. I'm sorry you can't see what I"m saying, and maybe one day things will change and people will stop looking at Christians who do the wrong thing (by disowning their children when they are gay), and understand not all Christians think its acceptable to hate and end your relationship with your child, just because they are gay. And hopefully people will understand just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t mean you have to hate the other person and lose their love.

Rebecca - posted on 12/09/2010

You know AN,I just think if you are gonna bring it up there should be no shame in explaining why you think that...unless there is. I actually want to hear your explanation. My fiance is notorious for saying, "I didn't know what I was actually saying didn't make any sense until I said it out loud." I'm not saying this will happen to you but I do have faith that sometimes it does.

And Joy, I said before that, it is different strokes for different folks, AN is perfectly entitled to say what she would do in the situation, that is the point of the forum. I guess I'd just hate, as I said before, for her to be left behind the rest of the world, IMO, because the tide seems to be moving away from the classic conservative christian viewpoint of, I'd still love my child but don't approve of their "chosen" lifestyle. That's what I was debating and her views on homosexuality seemed to help explain that. Forgive me, if you'd like to argue gay marriage is like teens having the right to have sex with their teachers and priests (and that is mainly what most people think of when they speak about child rapists), with the intention of it being on point...go ahead. I'd love to hear more about it.

I also would like to echo the popular defense against why these set of beliefs about your child coming out as gay and handling it in a certain fashion, the I have a neighbour, an aunt, a bingo partner who is gay and everyone treats them mean but I don't therefore my ideas on the subject must be left unchanged (which is pretty much interchangeable, seems everyone who makes the argument says these things). I don't think what I'm about to say validates my argument at all, I just want to say it so it matches with your story..

My brother just got married this summer to the son of a Baptist preacher, in Georgia (well, they got the license in DC cause you know, it's illegal in most of the south). My BIL's father stood proud and actually ran the ceremony along with the rest of his devout family. They didn't just tolerate their son's "choice", they embraced it and loved him for what he is. Somehow, they were able to still have a deep relationship with God and their accepted homosexual son, his family and his husband. This is what I mean by being left behind, even the Christians are starting to leave the I don't approve boat behind...

Tracey - posted on 12/09/2010

The only thing I want my kids to be is happy. Who they sleep with is their choice.
My son is disabled with a mental age of 4, he will not be straight or gay, he will never have a partner, he will never have sex. Be happy with the children you have, and be happy that they have found love.

A - posted on 12/08/2010

I just want to add that my husbands Aunt is gay. I've only met her and her partner once, but we are friends with them on FB and I've come to know them through there. I've heard some horrible comments made from my husbands father's family and their actions and words are not what they preach. I really don't understand why they treat them with such hate; I really like my husbands Aunt and her partner. While I don't agree with their lifestyle choice (or many other things- we debate all the time about politics in a friendly way) I think they both have one quality that many people lack- they truly do treat others the way they would want to be treated. From a Christian standpoint, that is one of the most important rules to follow. Many Christians I know do not follow that. Of course we have to keep in mind people want to be treated differently as well… lol I try myself but of course at times I fail. Based on their behavior and the very few other gay people I know- that is one thing they all have in common, and I can only hope I can be as perfect in that area as they are. We all have to love and respect each other- even if we disagree- and even if its our own children. Shunning people away has no up side for anyone involved- it just breeds hate and anger.

I've very glad to be a part of Debating Mums where nearly everyone (from what I've seen) is willing to listen to the other person and give them a chance and not let anger and hate get in the way :)

Stifler's - posted on 12/08/2010

Now that I see it that way... thanks Joy... I guess it's better not to lie and say "oh yeah son I don't care if you're gay... good job" but deep down really not approve.