Pets and Children...your take

Kate CP - posted on 11/19/2010

Of course others in the field of pet care can gauge what may be a stressful situation for an animal. I was basing my response on your statements of chows and pitbulls in your office as clients which is where I assume most of your interaction with dogs comes from. I interact with the most dogs during my job as well and during those instances it can either be highly stressful for the pet or more fun-loving and care-free. You mentioned home visits and I'm just wondering if you're talking about visiting a sick animal or visiting a friend who happens to have the breed we're discussing?

Chatty - posted on 11/19/2010

It's not personal, Marina -- she's just debating. Just take a deep breath...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

And I in turn feel that your opinion is passing a judgment on what you think every encounter that I have had with different animals is the same. Not true. It has been under many different circumstances, including home visits. There you go....you do not know everything the way you think you do. I don't know shy I feel the need to continue to defend myself to you. I do know animals outside of my job also. Obviously you feel that you understand every situation that a dog can be in simply Becouse you are a behavioralist...no one in the animal field could possibly understand animal behavior in stress free or stressful situations but yourself....and yes gauging a stressful situation can be determined by others in the field.

Mary - posted on 11/19/2010

Kate, I agree about the environment affecting their stress levels - it occurs in humans too. We call is white coat syndome. In L&D, we usually disregard the first set of vital signs, since they are almost always elevated. At least my patients understand why they are there!

Chatty - posted on 11/19/2010

Sorry, but I have to jump on Kate's professional wagon....she makes the most sense to me. Sorry for adding to the pile, Marina.

Kate CP - posted on 11/19/2010

And I feel that your opinion is based on a situation where a dog is already stressed and possibly in pain. I don't think you can get a genuine understanding of a dog's temperament when the only time you see them is when they are in a tense situation. And before you say that the vet's office isn't a tense situation I have to point out that it's a place where they go to get poked and prodded, there are smells there they aren't familiar with, and the general sense of fear and unease is palpable even to humans. It IS a stressful environment that will negatively affect any animal's behavior.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

I obviously disagree. I feel that they are. We have 2 different professional opinions.

Mary - posted on 11/19/2010

Dana - that APBT looks a lot like my Sam ♥ (although he's now got a good bit of gray in his face!)

Kate CP - posted on 11/19/2010

"...That Chows are aggressive by nature, that pittttttttttbulls have a tendency to be aggressive..."

That right there is what I'm talking about. That sentence gives the impression that you are the end-all be-all source and there is no room for exceptions.

No, not all Chows are aggressive. In fact many are NOT aggressive but REACTIVE. Many people mistake reactive behavior for aggressive behavior. Pitbull breeds are the same way. Also, pitbull breeds are typically tolerant of humans but CAN BE very reactionary (sometimes even genuinely aggressive) towards other animals. You can actually find the statistics of temperament testing at http://www.atts.org/statistics.html Of the Chow Chows tested using this highly accepted and popular method over 71% passed (meaning they showed no outward signs of aggression or other behavioral issues). Of the AmStaffs and APBT over 83% passed. These breeds are NOT inherently aggressive.

Krista - posted on 11/19/2010

Marina, you're seeing what you want to see. I AGREED with you that it's irresponsible to leave kids alone with dogs. A lot of people have agreed with you.

But you're kind of conveniently ignoring that.

And if you think my really quite gentle criticism constituted "piling on", then I really don't know what else can be said to you.

Jennifer - posted on 11/19/2010

Dogs don't instinctively attack - they do if they've been taught to do so. I personally don't find pitbulls attractive but I do know some who are so placcid and friendly!

Chatty - posted on 11/19/2010

Kate, I picked out the American Pit Bull Terrier second after the British Bull Terrier. YAY ME! Thanks for the insight by the way....I learn something new every day!

Jodi - posted on 11/19/2010

Marina, when everyone is telling you that your attitude sucks, have you considered that perhaps it isn't everyone else who has the problem?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

Once again...I said so many other things in that very first post...not just flipping idiot. Obviously I should not have name called. That one thing has blossomed into a bash session no matter WHAT I have responded with. Krista, many people have disagreed...the name was just the beginning..,.,and yes you have piled right on top with everyone else. Jodi, you have been nasty to me also. You all have been, and I have deffended my stance and thoughts right back. Not one of you has gotten my back this entire time....no matter the good or bad that I have said. Everyone of you has just simply focused all of your energy on one comment here or there that I have made that you haven't like. Gee, maybe I should go count how many against one....darn...gotta go finish my kids bath. I am sure I will be back to continue my lashings for my opinions and feelings. Anyone else that wants to make a comment on how bad I am, go ahead. Just do me the kind courtesy of reading every post that has been made and see how rude all of you have been to me also.

Mary - posted on 11/19/2010

Thanks, Kate, for jumping in (I've been waiting for you for a while!)

I will give this to Marina - I too often use the term pits in threads on hers, only because it is such a commonly used term, and people not familiar with the differences in bully breeds at least know what type of dog I'm referring to (although referencing the RCA dog helps with bull terriers). My own dog is a rescue, and a mix - most likely APBT and greyhound. To save time and words, I just refer to him as a pit mix (his head is unmistakable bully, his ass looks like a grey's!).

Marina, she's right about your attitude. I am slow to anger, but you really rubbed me the wrong way. Even the supposedly "nice' things you had to say about pits were qualified with derogatory slants, not to mention the horror stories of individual events. I have no idea about the veracity of you stories, but anecdotal stories don't impress me; after years with the BHS, I too could recount many incidents with a wide variety of breeds and mixes. BFD. What I've learned is that breed/mix can be somewhat predictive of temperament, but every dog is an individual, and just like us humans, they are a mix of nature vs nurture. Generalizations about ANY breed only does them a disservice, especially by those who claim professional knowledge.

Jodi - posted on 11/19/2010

Marina, I think you are missing my point. You actually have an interesting opinion, which could incite some friendly debate, but it is lacking in its delivery. There are parts of what you have to say relevant to the debate that I could agree with, but by coming in here and starting off calling people flipping idiots and then insulting any and all when they call you out on it, your opinion is totally lost in translation. I have no interest in discussing your opinion with you purely because of your attitude. If you backed off a little on the attitude, debating with you could be a far more pleasant experience. There is absolutely no need to be so rude.

Krista - posted on 11/19/2010

Marina, very few people here disagree with you that it is very foolhardy to leave a small child alone with a dog. With a couple of exceptions, everybody else on this thread has indicated that leaving a small child alone with a dog, no matter how trusted, is very unwise.

However, it's still unseemly (and against the rules of COM, I might add), to call someone an idiot and to say that social services should be called upon them. And when that was pointed out to you, you bristled and said that you could say whatever you wanted about the comments in here (which, once again, is untrue, as COM does actually have rules against personal attacks).

Like I said, not too many people here disagree with you that it is unwise to leave a small child alone with any dog. But it's the WAY that you said it, and the way that you've been expressing yourself since then, that has evidently rubbed quite a few people the wrong way.

I hope you don't feel that I'm piling on here, as I know you already feel you're being ganged up upon. But I thought I might at least try to help you realize why that's happening.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

Nope...never said I was...but I am a damn good one! Regardless of your opinion, and everyone else on this thread, I know what I am talking about. So do you. What is your point? Yes, you do have a holier than thou attitude...just by simply correcting me again shows it. Sorry for your cat attack that sucks. Don't know how long you were a tech for...but obviously not long enough to be bashing me right along with everyone else. Never said ultimate source, but a fine source non the less. Keep going with this Kate...all you want. I am so tired and done with everyone ganging up. One after another...after another...not one of you actually seeing the good in anything I have said from the begining up until we started debating, Tired of standing solo. I am a big enough person to admit when I am wrong. I truly don't feel that I am in this. That Chows are aggressive by nature, that pittttttttttbulls have a tendency to be aggressive, and I would never leave any infant...or a young child alone in a room with a dog...especially in a day care setting. I stand behind all of that...as a trained vet tech, and a concerned mother. Are you a big enough person to admit to being holier than thou?

Kate CP - posted on 11/19/2010

It's not grammar correction, it's a common spelling error that I was pointing out. I don't think I have a holier-than-thou attitude. I never claimed to be better than you. However, you have repeatedly made statements about breed type and temperament which are just not true. And you have made them in such a way that makes it sound as though you are the ultimate source on the subject. I'm sorry you feel like you don't respect me any more but that's not really my problem.

And I guess you doubt that I was a vet tech, but I was for a time. I had to leave the profession because I was attacked by a cat and I nearly died from the resulting infection.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

Oh...one was a chow that I was bit by...go figure. The other was a Shepard.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

WOW! now even grammar corrections. Don't fool yourself..you deffinately have a wholier than thou attitude. Try reading my posts before commenting. And if you were a vet tech, you know how easy it is to be put in harms way daily...and get paid not nearly what we deserve. It was never cocky...it got out of hand on BOTH sides. I have been bitten severely becouse of someone elses eagerness to step into a bad situation. Once becouse of a Doctor NOT LISTENING TO THE TECH (me) and once becouse another tech didn't know what they were doing. I have seen horrific things happen to those that DID know what they were doing. No one knows it all...you don't know what kind of tech I am...or person...I don't know you. I will tell you one thing,....I use to have a hell of alot of respect for you.

Kate CP - posted on 11/19/2010

All dogs are different. There have been a few chow chows that have been very, very sweet that I have met. Just because it's a certain breed doesn't mean it's going to be a certain way.

Kate CP - posted on 11/19/2010

I used to be a vet tech. I don't trust any one who has a cocky know-it-all attitude about dogs and that includes vets and other trainers. I've been there. I've been in the room with the two chows who wanted to take my face off. I've been cornered in a run with a dog who could have done serious damage to me. I used to think I knew everything there was to know about dogs and their behavior and I was wrong. Its taken a lot of continuous education to get where I am and I still don't know everything. And no, not many people know that the term pitbull is not a breed. And it's pitbull, not PITTbull. There isn't two T's in the word.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

I just love this!!! No one else has come across in a deffensive (you say bitchy) manner on this subject? Are you Fing kidding me????? OMG I feel like I am in 6 grade and all the mean girls are ganging up on the different girl. WOW! Maybe go read through everything that has been written. Not one of the nice, or important things that I have written has been brought up...just the things to make me look bad...but no one else. Just lovely. So glad everyone in every thread is a big Fing bully when it comes to different opinions. Nice.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

Oh, and MANY chow mixes have been extremely nasty. So glad you have met some that are nice.

Jodi - posted on 11/19/2010

Marina, can I just say, I have only just come back into this thread and read through the responses since I last posted, and you are coming across in such a bitchy tone, NO-ONE is going to respond well to that no matter the content on what you have to say. If you dropped the condescending attitude, people may have greater respect for what is your opinion even if they don't agree with it.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

WOW Kate...thanks for throwing me under the bus there. First off, I am suprised becouse we have both felt the same way on many many animal discussions before. Secondly, Pitt is such a general term that most people know thank you very much. Did you not see that it was posted in the best and worst pets per home? I did that intentionally. No I don't know everything, and everything I do know has been tought to me by teachers, and incredible Vets. Also, I have learned animal behavior. I suppose that you are the type that don't trust the Techs...even after YOU have trained them. I am so utterly offended. I am sure that is what you were going for. This originaly was becouse I called someone a flipping idiot for leaving a dog alone in the same room with young children. It has blossomed into a swinging match with me center ring. I have never said I was an expert, I am proud of what I do, and what I have learned. I understand animal behavior, admittedly it is not my specialty...but to be a successful tech that is often put in harms way...you learn pretty damn fast. For you not to acknowledge that...well..it is sad.

Kate CP - posted on 11/19/2010

Okay, the behaviorist is back and stepping in. First of all I have to address the whole chow chow thing. Full-blooded chow chows scare me. Why? Because it's hard to read their body language and determine their next move. I've never been seriously bitten by a dog in over 12 years of working with them. Why? I know how to read canine body language and can usually maneuver myself out of the way or diffuse the situation before I get bit. With chows it's not so easy because of all the fur and the squished face. They are usually not vocal dogs either so they tend to not growl or bark before snapping. Now, that doesn't mean that all chows are vicious, man-eating beasts. Most chow mixes I have come across are sweeter than pie and I can read their body language well enough to know how to work with them. A chow mix is a totally different dog from a full-blooded chow chow.



The next thing I have to comment on is the whole pitbull thing. First of all, Marina, as a vet tech you should know that there is no such thing as a pitbull. They don't exist. There are American Pit bull Terriers, Bull Terriers, and Staffordshire Terriers. The term "pitbull" (NOT PITT) refers to a look or body type that these dogs have: muscular, square heads, big jaws. Most people can't identify a true American Pit Bull Terrier. See if you can: http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findthe...



Next I have to address the aggression and abuse comments. I have a dog who was (WAS) terrified of men and people. I would take her out for socializing and people would always say "Oh, she was abused wasn't she?" Nope. Not once. She was never socialized as a young dog and THAT is why she is terrified of people. Dogs that bite, snap, bark, growl, and are generally seen as "aggressive" 9 times out of 10 haven't been abused they just haven't been trained or socialized. The dogs that have been abused are usually the kindest, most loving and forgiving creatures on the planet because it's their survival mechanism. They revert to a puppy mode (rolling on their backs, giving kisses, etc) to attempt to show they are not a threat.

Next BSL...or as I lovingly refer to it: Bullshit Legislation. The problem with these "dangerous dogs" is that there are way too many dogs and people don't know how to work with or train them. I cannot count how many times I have seen some one with a new puppy and offered my card only to hear "Oh, I know how to train a dog" and then six months later they are calling me begging for help or to find a new home for the dog. It's rather infuriating. When people get a new dog of any age they assume they know what they're doing based on past experience. No two dogs are the same, just like no two children are the same. While one method may have worked for a previous animal this new one may not respond the same way.



I'm not surprised that Marina seems to think she knows all there is to know about dogs; most vet techs think they do. Canine behavior is a science that takes years to understand and study and even then no one gets it right 100% of the time.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

Nope...I fully disagree. You sure are the ever lasting antagonist aren't you?

~Jennifer - posted on 11/19/2010

so, I guess my 1/2 chow , 1/2 collie is safer than your intended boxer.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

best family dogs...Toni, you will like this one
http://www.dogguide.net/blog/2008/05/the...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

top 10 most dangerous dogs...suprised to see boxers made the list..
http://www.pluspets.net/top-10-dangerous...

Toni - posted on 11/19/2010

I think it is wise to be aware that any animal can be dangerous and allow individual people to have the sense to cope with it but the problem is people don't, and train dogs like this to fight which gives them bad names. One of my favourite dogs is a Stafordshire Bull Terrior which also has a rep as an aggressive dog but they are only aggressive when taught to be. It's a shame the few always spoil it for the masses.

Mary - posted on 11/19/2010

Breed-specific legislation. Some individuals counties in the US have it as well. I don't get worked up about much, but that is something I would fight until my dying breath.

Toni - posted on 11/19/2010

BSL? I thought that stood for British Sign Language...

Mary - posted on 11/19/2010

This thread has totally deteriorated, and I apologize for my part in taking it off track.

However, I cannot leave it without commenting on Toni's link regarding BSL. It's abhorrent to me, and on par with racial profiling and discrimination.

Krista - posted on 11/19/2010

Oh, fer crissakes people.

Yes, it is very ill-advised to leave ANY dog, no matter how trusted and docile, alone with a small child. And yes, it is also very rude to call someone who does so an idiot.

Those two thoughts CAN co-exist, peeps.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

The reason I was telling the stories is Becouse you were saying they were being bashed for nothing....that they do not deserve the label they have been given as a breed. I was giving you the answer...why I would not have an infant and a well known aggressive breed. That is my opinion and feelings about Pitts. Obviously we disagree. I do like them, but people who own them that don't know they are dangerous really make them dangerous!

Chatty - posted on 11/19/2010

We don't have any pets at the moment because of Chad's allergies. I want another min pin, but not sure when or if that'll ever happen?!

Cathy - posted on 11/19/2010

I have a 7 year old, a 22 month old, a beagle and a hamster. Only one of them I consider a danger to the others... the 22 month old!!!

Chatty - posted on 11/19/2010

True story: My ex-boyfriend and I rescued a chow/pitt cross. It was all black with a purple tongue. Crazy looking! Anyhow, we ended up giving it to a friend because we didn't have the space to care for it and the friend had to put the dog down a year later because it attacked and mangled his sisters face.

Just sayin....

I don't have an opinion one way or another about pets....do what you like. There are breeds that I'm more fond of than other and there are always exceptions to the rule. Interesting read though; entertaining too!

Toni - posted on 11/19/2010

I'm not overly fussed to be honest I'm not really a dog person. I'm more of a cat person...

Lesley - posted on 11/19/2010

Sorry that you cannot experience a wonderful breed Toni that is very unfortunate!

Lesley - posted on 11/19/2010

Obviously you are not a "Pit Bull" Lover cause you constantly bashing the breed... I do not want to hear about you horror Storied cause I have many as well like the little boy the sodomized a pit Bull and got bit.. Who is at fault Marina for that???? Oh really you have wonderful stories about Pit Bull's sure as hell don't see any all I see is bashing...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

On that last note...I will see all of your warm and fuzzy comments later...gotta go get my son.



Thank you Toni

Toni - posted on 11/19/2010

I would be inclined to support what Marina is saying about Pit Bulls considering they are on the dangerous dogs list here in the UK and are a banned breed, there are exceptions with restrictions as to ownership of them. But they are seen as being too dangerous for the general public to own here...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_D...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

What are you talking about Lesley??? I am talking about what I have SEEN first hand!!!! Read my posts fully and understand them BEFORE you respond...I named several other breeds...I am a pitt lover what is your problem? Settle down and read everything that I have written from the very first post on...take a chill pill...you obviously are blinded by one mere comment that has been made and not the whole picture,...did you not read that I SAW a co-worker DRAGGED into an 8ft run by a PITT BULL! do you want me to tell you the countless times I have seen yorkies die from pittbull attacks? Do you want me to tell you the other attacks that I have seen on owners IN FRONT OF ME? Or would you like to know about the attacks i have sewn up that pitts have done on the other dogs in the house??? What would you like me to emphasise next? the only reason I am bringing this up is becouse you are saying there "label" is completely unwarrented...it is not. I can also tell you some wonderful things too...but you are so damn blinded by a different opinion concerning them that you won't even see the nice things.

Lesley - posted on 11/19/2010

Also what is annoying if you do not want to have this conversation than don't. Nobody is coming back at you I could care less what you think I'm just stating my opinions.

Lesley - posted on 11/19/2010

First and foremost MOST abused animals are Pit I didn't say all... just a little FYI not all animal bites are from Pit Bull's where are u getting your information you must be making it up due to the fact that it's wrong.... Look at the aggression statics Pit Bull's scored the highest...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 11/19/2010

Damn this is annoying,,,...Not really sure why either one of you keep coming back at me....I AM FOR PITTS!!! I LOVE THEM!!!!! I WOULD NOT ABSOLUTELY NOT OWN ONE WITH AN INFANT!

If you worked in an ER and regularly you saw a tradgedy the could be avoided, would you? That is the same way I feel about pitts. I have seen the damage they can do...you can deny it all you want. I have seen it many times over with my own eyes, and the both of you are actually making me reconsider whether I would actually TRULY own one. I saw 2 pitts (very regular borders and patienst of ours that we saw from 10 weeks on) drag a worker into the kennel...you would not believe the damge that she had done to her arms and chest....the scariest thing I have ever seen in my life...AND WE SAW THOSE DOGS REGULARLY! WE KNEW THEM AS WELL AS THE OWNERS AND LOVED THEM AS OUR OWN! Not all pitts are like this...you will see some other breeds that I listed that I do not trust.l..becouse too many times I have repeatedly seen that breed (wether it be dalmation, pitt, chow chow, min pin, shar pei...etc) repeately go coo-coo. Not sure why either one of you keeps going back to this,.,why not mention all of the other wonderful things that I have said?

Hats off to you Mary for volunteering...that is a wonderful thing.

Lesley, protect away. Many animals are mistreated...NOT just pits.