Please tell me this is a sick joke!!

Karla - posted on 11/21/2011

Thanks Sylvia, after I wrote my comment I did go to Amazon and saw all the posts - almost all the reviews gave it 5 stars or 1 star (not much in between) and the ones I saw are dated in the last week. People are passionate about this, but it's so sad to hear that parents are so insecure about their instincts that they would follow such terrible advice.

Also, thanks for the book review and recommendation on “Future Babble.” I’ll definitely put it on my wish list!

Sylvia - posted on 11/20/2011

@Meggy, LOL at "it's a toddler" :D

@Karla, if you go on the book's Amazon page and look at the reviews you'll find that a lot of people have posted extremely negative reviews for exactly this reason. Does it help? I have no idea. I suspect the most effective are those written be people like Lisa who have actually tried the Pearls' method (or had it tried on them) and experienced the damage it does; the rest of us I'm sure are easily dismissed as cranks, "secular humanists", whatever. For a true believer, though, it's possible to rationalize just about anything. (I just read a book about expert predictions, why they're so frequently wrong and why we keep believing them anyway, and it has a whole chapter on the phenomenon of cognitive dissonance, which is the feeling we experience when we're presented with evidence that something we believe very, very strongly is false: what happens next is that our brain immediately goes into action to come up with reasons that what we believe isn't *really* wrong. It's not even a conscious process. Fascinating book: Future Babble by Dan Gardner. Anyway.)

Karla - posted on 11/20/2011

I stopped reading the excerpts from the book, they are too disturbing.



Has anyone commented on Amazon about the book? I wonder whether or not it would deter buyers if people who have found this book revolting made a negative comment on Amazon?



There is a very good, though older, Christian leaning book on parenting in which the author uses the “spare the rod spoil the child” verse and explains that in Biblical times the “rod” was used by the Sheppard to guide the sheep. Therefore the “rod” is meant to be a guide not a flailing device. That’s from “How to Really Love Your Child” but Ross Campbell.



It’s still available: http://www.amazon.com/How-Really-Love-Yo...



If any of you are involved with Christian Parents who may be tempted to use Pearl's book, please give them this one as an alternative.



Even though we have freedoms in the US, I really think a users warning could be implemented with books such as “To Train Up a Child,” by the Pearls and “Baby Wise,” “Toddler Wise,” and “Child Wise” by Ezzo.



I try not to be too negative to people or wish ill on them, but I’ll just say it wouldn’t surprise me if one of the Pearl’s kids went postal on them.

Stifler's - posted on 11/19/2011

Isn't YHWH Hebrew for Jehova?

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/19/2011

The King James version is also only about 400 something years old compaired with the Torah and Tamuld it's just a baby or at least a toddler LOL. Plus there are parts that were left out from the original Aramaic/Hebrew text when the Bible was first translated into Latin and English. You've gotta love the History Channel.

Sylvia I remember greeting people Good Shabbus or Sabbat Salome (I know that's probably not right) Working on Fridays at the assisted living place was a combination of easy and boring because after dinner the residents really didn't have much to do and neither did we until it was time to help them get ready for bed. Most would sit in the TV room and watch TV since we didn't have a movie.

Back to the topic I've read excerpts from this book and it makes me cringe. You would have to be pretty much indoctrinated into the church not to say WTF this is insane and burn the book in the rubish pile.

Sylvia - posted on 11/19/2011

Yeah, this thread seems to have gone off track a bit ...

@Meggy, yes, it's spelled right :) Although you could also spell it Shabbes. Writing Hebrew and Yiddish words in the English alphabet is fun ;)

@Johnny, yeah, there's a whole world of Jews-for-Jesus and other movements out there that are Christian, but do a bunch of Jewish stuff. Jews find the whole thing a bit bewildering, frankly (but not nearly as bewildering as the folks, Michael Pearl :P among them, who insist that the King James Bible is the only valid/correct/infallible English version. We're all, "Dude, it's a translation. There are, like, 50 of them." o_O

Johnny - posted on 11/18/2011

I have met a few Christians online who also used G-d, although they seemed to belong to a group that may have been associated closely with a sect of Judaism. I don't know. They also believed that father's should circumcise their own sons in a special bris (sp?) ritual. So it isn't just observant Jews who use that form.

Minnie - posted on 11/18/2011

Must be similar to writing God's name YHWH.



Laura: I imagine it is out of extreme reverence for God's name.

Laura Zoey - posted on 11/18/2011

Thanks Sylvia! I wonder why Christians don't use that, we all are referring to the same God, or should I say G-d :)

Sharlene - posted on 11/18/2011

Guy's I'm lost; LOL ,are we basing this book on Jewish term's now

Stifler's - posted on 11/18/2011

I agree hitting a baby who doesn't even understand discipline or talk yet isn't a parenting choice it's just abuse.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/18/2011

Sylvia I knew that part. Some Orthodox Jews used to have someone called a Shabbos Goy (is that spelled correctly) to do work during Sabbat. We actually had to do inservices for our job to understand Judaism better. I just thought it was sweet how she would always ask before hand. She also said that the menu wasn't Kosher enough for her. I loved taking care of her though because I learned a lot more about the religion.

One of my friends is half Jewish and works at a predominantly Jewish nursing home. A lot of the Orthodox Jews won't let her press the elevator button on Saturdays when she works there.

I just didn't know about the G-D thing.

Sylvia - posted on 11/18/2011

Meggy, that makes sense -- it's okay (according to the Orthodox -- I'm not, but I have many friends who are) for a non-Jewish person to "work" on Shabbat but not for a Jewish person, therefore it's okay to ask a non-Jewish person to do it for you but not to ask a Jewish person to do so.

(Being an observant Jew is very complicated. You practically need an advanced degree just to figure out what you're allowed to eat. ;) )

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/18/2011

Sylvia I didn't know that. I used to work at a predominantly Jewish assisted living community. I had this one Orthodox Jewish woman who would ask if we were Jewish or not before asking someone to turn off a light for her.

Sylvia - posted on 11/18/2011

@Laurelai -- it's a Jewish thing :)
http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm

Sharlene - posted on 11/17/2011

Okay this is my input.> Some moron wrote this book out of cruelty towards children,Shame Shame Shame LOL

Laura Zoey - posted on 11/17/2011

Why do you type G-d? It's God

Sylvia - posted on 11/17/2011

@Lisa, @Meggy, yeah, there are. There's a famous story about Rabbi Hillel (I think it was him -- one of the early rabbis, anyway) being challenged to explain the whole Torah while standing on one foot. His answer was something like "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow [hu]man. That is the whole Torah [i.e., law] -- all the rest is commentary." The book of Jonah is all about G-d's love for humankind. Tehillim (Psalms in English) has some stuff about anger and smiting enemies, but is mostly full of expressions of love -- c. 23 being a prime example, also 121. Mish'lei (Proverbs), which the Pearls and their ilk love to quote, is very cranky, but the whole Shir haShirim (Song of Songs) is one ginormous love-fest. Micah? "What does G-d require of [hu]mankind? Only to do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your G-d." There are probably, if one is inclined to count things, hundreds of passages talking about G-d's love for us and enjoining us to be kind, fair, just, merciful, loving, humane, etc., to other people. And that's just in the Jewish Bible.

Of course there's lots of wacky and downright nasty stuff in there too. And it's certainly fair to ask to what extent we should really be using texts written by who-really-knows-whom a couple of thousand years ago to organize our lives. But if there is a G-d, which I mostly think there is, I am very, very, very sure that s/he does not get any jollies from parents whacking their small children with plumbing line. In fact, I'm pretty sure s/he would NOT be down with that kind of behaviour. And it creeps me out very deeply that someone (like Michael Pearl) who calls himself a Christian is prepared to do that kind of thing in the name of raising children to love G-d.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/17/2011

Pretty much Lisa.

Sylvia I'm pretty sure there are parts in both parts of the Bible where there are more stories of God's love than anything else.

Minnie - posted on 11/17/2011

Matthew 18: 5-7

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Pickin' and choosin,' pickin' and choosin.'

Sylvia - posted on 11/17/2011

@Meggy, ew, yeah, the "Everyone says how well-behaved and polite my kids are!" thing :P The horrible Ezzo books (which look really tame by comparison to the Pearls' stuff!) are like that, too -- it's all about the appearances. (One thing in the Ezzo books that particularly appalls me is the thing where it's okay to cave in and feed your "uncooperative" or "defiant" (i.e., ravenously hungry and therefore crying) baby ahead of schedule if you're on a plane or somewhere where there are other people around who can't get away from you, because it's inconsiderate to make them listen to your baby's crying. W. T. F.) Who cares if your children are secretly miserable-bordering-on-clinically-depressed, as long as they act happy?

I'm not a Christian, but isn't there a bunch of stuff in the New Testament about, like, being nice to small children?

Jeannette - posted on 11/17/2011

Yes, I updated my post after you posted.

Laura Zoey - posted on 11/17/2011

I'm pretty certain it's illegal to hit a 4 month old with a switch in all of Canada and also in many states including my own.
That's not a parenting choice, that's illegal abuse.

Jeannette - posted on 11/17/2011

Laurelai, I disagree. First, you have to want to believe something to actually become brainwashed by the entire philosophy behind it. Second, I know there are plenty of books on the market whose advice I would disagree with. This book encourages corporal punishment, which is not abuse to everyone. We are not all like-minded, which makes us diverse and interesting. Imposing laws on others or banning free thought and speech is a slippery slope. Once we get started, where do we end? We will have to contend with various versions of the word "abuse" to then go on to censor yet more written words.

Edited to add: We can have laws against child abuse to protect those which would suffer serious harm. However, to ban a written word, that is un-American IMO.

Minnie - posted on 11/17/2011

It's not really the book itself that brainwashes. It's the headship in the church that promotes it and every other family attending the church. There's a pervading philosophy. They're already brainwashed by the teachings of that church and then they get the book when it's time to have babies. And based on everything that's been dumped into their skulls the book makes complete sense. They're already getting the same teaching in the book from the pulpit.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/17/2011

Same here. I get told how helpful and polite Abby is. I will admit to a swat on the hand or behind once in a while (probably 8 times from the time she was 3 to this year) with my hand, but I haven't had to do that in months. I'm not going to say she's easy because she's not. My 7 year old is impulsive, single minded at times and hyper because of ADHD and being a kid. But I wouldn't change even that part of her to make my life easier. Besides I was the same way when I was growing up.

Laura Zoey - posted on 11/17/2011

I get tons of compliments too! Seriously, people always say how well behaved Eric is.
I always try to mention how glad I am that there's ways to parent with out spanking.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/17/2011

Lisa, thanks for the insight. I'm just trying to wrap my head around a religion that allows such abuse or at least a religious leader. It's really quite disturbing.



As for Amazon's American and Canadian sites I was suprised to find this book on the Canadian site since using anything other than your hand is illegal in Canada. However in the US the laws on spanking vary from state to state so I wasn't too shocked there. What I have been shocked by is some of the reviews that claim the book is a God send and they get complimented on how wonderfully their children behaive. This is just my opinion, but I don't believe their children are behaiving out of respect and love for their parents.

Laura Zoey - posted on 11/17/2011

Books that can brainwash parents into abusing their children should be banned.
There's freedom of speech but books encouraging abuse are not safe

Jeannette - posted on 11/17/2011

I have never bought the book, been interested in this type of discipline, or condone what the book suggests.
However, I am against censorship. There are plenty of books that contextually I would disagree, but censorship is an infringement upon freedom I do not tolerate easily.

Minnie - posted on 11/17/2011

I must interject here and say that most people who are following this method aren't doing out of a malicious desire to hurt children or hiding behind their religion.



They truly and utterly believe that if they don't parent this way they will damn their children to hell. They've been brainwashed and are parenting in fear.



Yes, they have incorrect perceptions of children and age appropriate behaviors- but that's because they trust their pastors completely and have been taught this way. It's not so easy to say "anyone with half a brain would....".



This is not to excuse Michael Pearl, though- he is doubly held accountable because of the position he's in.



It's utter brainwashing- and it's amazing to step past the barrier when you question this and look back and be so boggled at what you thought was right before.

Johnny - posted on 11/16/2011

Reading the reviews on Amazon, it appears that those who follow this.book "religiously" do not understand the.difference between children and robots. Or the difference between having an emotional connection and having Stockholm syndrome.

Becky - posted on 11/16/2011

Sylvia, you expressed my thoughts exactly. Children are supposed to explore, to test limits, to challenge authority. It would be lovely if my 3 year old never dumped my spices all over the kitchen floor because he was "painting" and they both picked up their toys without even being asked, but those things are a part of childhood. Terrorizing them into unquestioning obedience is not going to create compassionate, secure, independent and self-sufficient adults! Like Johnny said, it's more likely to create sociopaths!
I found this book on the website of a Christian bookstore we have here in town. I wrote a review stating it was abusive and advocated practices that are illegal in Canada. I wonder if they posted my review?

Kellie - posted on 11/16/2011

Their constitution.



LOL I had commandments in my head and it totally prevented me from coming up with the right word.



Jane said this "Until the book IS in fact illegal Amazon will continue to sell it. If Amazon refuses to carry any legally printed book then it is appointing itself as censor, which is directly against the Bill of Rights."



How do we make the book illegal so we can stop Amazon selling it then? If that's the only way to get them to stop selling this disgusting guide then that's what we need to do. Surely rational and compassionate adults would beat out those that would follow such a manuel.



http://reformtalk.blogspot.com/2011/08/t...



The link is for the NZ bookseller who banned this book.



Just urgh. What people do to innocent children..



ETA:



It seems NZ on the whole is trying real hard to have this book banned. I hope they succeed!

Kellie - posted on 11/16/2011

Yes something about their oh shit, what's it called? Brain freeze! Someone mentioned it on page one, *sigh* oh dear I think baby brain has me in it's grips! I'm sure you know what I mean anyway Johnny.

I think it has been banned in New Zealand, I don't think via Amazon but by a bookstore, I will google it in a second and find out properly.

I will also take the time to find my brain, I seem to have left it somewhere...

Johnny - posted on 11/16/2011

I would agtee Kellie, but I think American law allows its sale, while it is much more questionable legally here in Canada. I don't know about elsewhere. I would love to see it banned everywhere because we all know well that a lot of stupid twits breed. Giving them access to books like this just puts children at risk.

Sharlene you are correct, this has nothing to do with religion, it is about child abuse. However, it seems that a lot of people abusing their children hide behind freedom of religion to get away with it. Just look at the FLDS.

Kellie - posted on 11/16/2011

I don't think it should be for sale anywhere Johnny. It's disgusting the way people hide behind religion to do these appaling things but to then hide behind freedom of speech so they they can sell a how to abuse your child guide is just insane.

Sharlene - posted on 11/16/2011

This is not about religion it's based on a author's garbage sense of a F U B that is completely useless .In any right mind would another human being would read it. It's tasteless .LOL

Johnny - posted on 11/16/2011

This seems more like a guide to creating little sociopaths than raising children. How truly twisted, cruel and immoral. This group is really just cult along the lines of People's Temple or the Children of God. They are practicing brainwashing, tearing families apart, and abusing children.

This book should not be on Amazon in Canada at all. It is definitely promoting illegal acts. And it can not be described as "art" or "literature" because it is clearly an instruction guide. I would think it would not be allowed, even with a charter challenge on freedom of religion.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/16/2011

Exactly Sylvia! Yes I wish my baby would sleep in her crib all night (we made it to 5am this morning!) and not cry to tell me she's upset. I wish my 7 year old would put on her toque and mittens when it's below freezing outside because she wants to, not because I shouted it from across the parking lot. But that's the beauty of having normal healthy children who are secure enough in their home environment to do what they shouldn't every once in a while. I want kids not robots dammit!

I believe that yes for the most part your children should do what you ask them to do, be respectful and be willing to help. However parents should expect that their child will say 'no I don't wanna' and throw a hissy fit every so often. If you can't handle your child showing emotions and thinking, then you should've made yourself an android instead of having children

Sylvia - posted on 11/16/2011

The thing I find so bizarre* about the Pearls' whole ... ethos, I guess, is their goals. The idea that what makes you a good, successful parent is for your kids to obey you instantly, unquestioningly, no matter what you tell them to do (see my previous post re: "HOT!"). That having cheerful, obedient kids is THE goal of parenting.

Because while I agree that it's convenient to have kids who do what you say without arguing about it, and I certainly don't encourage my kid to negotiate every. single. request that's made of her, I do want her to have the option of negotiating. I want her to be able to call people on their unfairness, their hypocrisy, their double standards, and their discrimination if necessary. If I tell her (or some other adult tells her) to do something that she knows she shouldn't do, I want her to say "No!" I don't want her to blindly obey. That's where mob violence comes from! (Well, not necessarily. But it's one source.) I have no interest in someday having an adult child so unable to think for herself that she'll believe cold is hot if I say so in a loud voice. Feh.

Also, I find this whole thing about making kids be cheerful all the time EXTREMELY creepy. Do I enjoy whining and meltdowns and grouchiness? No, of course not. But frankly I couldn't care less whether she empties the dishwasher with a cheerful smile or while muttering grouchily under her breath, as long as she empties the dishwasher. That's kind of what life's about -- there are lots of things you have to do even though you don't particularly like doing them, and you don't have to enjoy them but you do have to do them. "Negative" feelings like anger, sadness, and pain are real; you don't get rid of them by whacking a kid with a piece of plumbing line ::hurl:: until she "learns to have a cheerful heart" ::hurl::, you just force more and more of them deeper and deeper inside. I'm not that good at physics, but I'm pretty sure that when you shove more and more stuff into a finite space, eventually you get some kind of explosion :P

Plus, if you believe (as these people say they do) that G-d created human beings, then surely G-d created human beings as we actually are -- anger and sadness and grouchy mornings and all. Right?

*I mean, besides the entire idea of HITTING SMALL CHILDREN WITH OBJECTS which is beyond bizarre and into EXTREMELY BAD.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/16/2011

The whole: never pick up a baby idea reminds me of Nazi Germany. They did a study to find out what happens to babies if they weren't given love and affection and 'shockingly' the babies grew up to be cold and emotionless' great if you're trying to become a cold blooded killer but not so hot if you're trying to raise a warm well adjusted adult.

Sorry, but if you use discipline like that you are setting yourself up for failure as a parent. Your child isn't going to love and respect you. They'll fear you and resent you. David Pearl is one dilusioned man and his kids are lovely brainwashed humanoids. I read an excerpt from the book where both children tell a mother to whip her infant. I probably would've popped both of them upside the head and left the church.

Sylvia - posted on 11/16/2011

OMG not this guy again ...

It's not just the book. They have a website. They have a glossy full-colour bimonthly magazine. They have seminars and "missions". They have a book to teach wives how to be "submissive helpmeets" to their husbands ::barf::.

The guy brags about how he "trained" (i.e., conditioned) his kids so well that even now, as adults, they would instantly drop a cold glass of [I forget what] if he shouted "HOT". They write about "switching" one of their daughters at 4 months to teach her to stay away from the stairs, because she was an early crawler and they were afraid she'd get partway up, fall down, and get hurt. They tell mums never to pick their babies up when they cry, only when they're happy, so that they "learn not to cry to get [their] way".

It's utterly, utterly, utterly horrible. And the worst thing is that if you read enough of it, it starts to seep into your own thinking and your own relationship with your kids -- you know you would never *do* any of those horrible things, but you start to ask yourself what's wrong with your kids that they're not as perfectly behaved and consistently cheerful as the ones in the Pearls' anecdotes... D: D:

Sharlene - posted on 11/15/2011

That's a FJ .And who ever wrote that book, someone should do it to them ,I WILL

Jennifer - posted on 11/08/2011

Wow, I'm so sickened by the quotes of the book. "Break" a child? Trainers don't even use that term for horses anymore!! And most Amish techniques are considered very cruel. Mules are generally considered very good mounts for children, because they are sensible and gentle, so yeah, that anolagy is pretty right on target!

I imagine since they have trained their children that 'the bigger, stronger one rules' that they may have a problem when their kids get a bit older!! At least I hope they do. My mother also 'spanked' my brother and I, she would beat us with a belt until we bled, my brother more than I. I will never forget her face the day my brother grabbed her arm, threw her on the floor and told her he was never going to be hit again!

Kellie - posted on 11/08/2011

I think it's sad that so many lose themselves and go so far from their own personal power they fall prey to people like the Pearls and allow them to control them so completely and in every way that they believe in their teachings and follow it.

This is probably going to sound idealistic but I hope by educating people and standing up and saying this is not right, this book should not be sold and promoted, your fricken constitution aside, and by supporting those trying to make this book and those like like it illegal so that it CAN'T be sold, might wake people up. I know it's possible, Lisa did it and so did the Admin of a Facebook page that followed and advocated for the Pearls...

Glad you saw the light Lisa.

♥♪Megan♫♥ - posted on 11/08/2011

That must've been some interesting reading. I think my ex read that book because he blames his affair on me and allowed our roommate to berate me.

I always thought God created women to be a man's help MATE (I was raised Catholic) and they were equal partners. I was even taught that in religion class.

The religious edict these people are teaching is a load of tripe.

Laura Zoey - posted on 11/08/2011

If he beats you it's your fault, if he cheats on you it's your fault if he doesn't love you it's your fault.
Bull crap!

Minnie - posted on 11/08/2011

Yes, I've read most of their books. Created to be His Help Meet basically places the entire burden of happiness in a marriage, loyalty and fidelity and one's husband's success as a person upon the shoulders of the wife. Because that's her God-given place in life.



This book was given to all of the young women preparing for marriage in my church.

Becky - posted on 11/08/2011

Of course, there would always be ways to get your hands on it if you wanted to, but it would be a step in the right direction for at least the Canadian site to ban it based on the fact that the practices it advocates are illegal here.