Pro choice-pro life spectrum

Ashley=) - posted on 05/21/2011

In life nothings black&white.There is always grey areas.

With this particular issue, its normal to feel a mix of things.There are grey areas.I believe we do have a choice.I think only sometimes that choice is justified.

Amanda - posted on 05/21/2011

ALL THE WAY PRO LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!

Sarah - posted on 04/06/2011

(back to the last page where i left off. just refreshed it to find heaps more lol)
That is an awful story Johnny :(
But, of the girls i personally know, the ones i went to school with, they are all fine mentally, one is highly intelligent, one is a dumb blonde type lol, one went through a longggg silly teenager phase and the other smokes a bit too much of the green stuff lol but other than that she's nice :) They're all nice girls but their choices disgust me.
The 9 and 4 sisters i don't personally know, but from what my ex has told me about them, theres nothing wrong with them at all lol.

Oh and for the record i am also against the death penalty. Under all circumstances, it is not right.

Candice - posted on 04/06/2011

Roe v. Wade makes all Americans pro-choice. You do not have to believe or accept this but it is fact. In our country you are CHOOSING "life" if you are pro-life and pro-choicers also get to pick what they do. Sorry churchies,you still get to choose,god isn't running this place as of yet.(w00t for me).Restricting when abortions can be done is a load of bullocks. What if a lady doesn't find out she is pregnant until after the cutoff? That cuts off her right to choose. Don't tell me she should know, or sex has consequences. Partial birth and that pile 'o bullshit was invented by G-dub and his idiot army. My point is lifers,keep choosing for yourselves and do not impose your beliefs on the rest of us. Oh yes as you can obviously see I CHOSE to birth my babe or I would not be on this forum :D

Jenni - posted on 04/06/2011

Esther, Yes. I found a similar site discussing why teen pregnancy rates are so high in the USA compared to Europe. They developed the European Study Tour to understand the relationships. Here's some details of their findings:

http://pphsinc.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/...



Basically boils down to education. ;)

Rosie - posted on 04/06/2011

no, i think we should keep with the whole condoms don't work thing. that's working REAL good so far...:P

Krista - posted on 04/06/2011

The mind boggles, dunnit?

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/06/2011

Maybe America makes abortion such a cpntroversy, and so taboo that it actually makes it more common. Maybe if we would just stop talking about it and stop trying to change people's minds, it would cool down and less people would think of it as a good option.
Make it easier to place babies for adoption, make it easier for pregnant women to have free medical care, and make it easier for couples to adopt.
Oh yeah, education that might help too!
Pull out method, and lazy rhythm methods are not good contraceptive!!

Sara - posted on 04/06/2011

Wait wait wait, Esther. Are trying to say that if you **gasp** EDUCATE people and increase the availability of birth control that it would actually reduce the numbers of abortions???? What what WHAT?!?!?!? Crazy.

Esther - posted on 04/06/2011

I was doing a search on the abortion rates in the Netherlands (where I'm originally from) because I know it's very low there too even though abortion is legal and fairly unrestricted (and non-controversial). I found this article that explains some of the reasons why it's so low (btw - the abortion rate may no longer be the very lowest in the world due to increasing numbers of immigrants - but it's still somewhere at the bottom):

This article gives a review of the main factors that are related to the low abortion rate in the Netherlands. Attention is payed to figures on abortion and the use of contraceptive methods since the beginning of the 1960s up to the end of the 1980s. The strong acceptance of family planning was influenced by changing values regarding sexuality and the family, the transition from an agricultural to a modern industrial society, rapid economic growth, declining influence of the churches on daily life, introduction of modern mass media and the increased general educational level. The introduction of modern contraceptives (mainly the pill and contraceptive sterilization) was stimulated by a strong voluntary family planning movement, fear for overpopulation, a positive role of GPs, and the public health insurance system. A reduction of unwanted pregnancies has been accomplished through successful strategies for the prevention of teenage pregnancy (including sex education, open discussions on sexuality in mass media, educational campaigns and low barrier services) as well as through wide acceptance of sterilization. The Dutch experience with family planning shows the following characteristics: a strong wish to reduce reliance on abortion, ongoing sexual and contraceptive education related to the actual experiences of the target groups, and low barrier family planning services.

PIP: People in the Netherlands consider unplanned pregnancy to be a large problem that society and decision-makers should and do seriously address. The abortion rate fluctuates between 5 to 7/1000 women of reproductive age, the lowest abortion rate in the world. Between 1965 and 1975, a shift from a largely agricultural society to an industrial society, rapid economic growth and the establishment of a welfare state, a reduced influence of the church in public and personal life, introduction of mass media, and a rapid increase in the educational level of both men and women brought about a rapid change in traditional values and family relations in the Netherlands. These changes and the introduction of modern contraception effected a breakthrough in family planning and sexual morality. Factors facilitating the rapid transition to a contraceptive society in the Netherlands were a voluntary family planning movement, fear of overpopulation, role of general practitioners in providing family planning services, and inclusion of family planning in the national public health insurance system. Acceptance of contraception preceded liberalization of abortion. Society accepts abortion as only a last resort. The sexual sterilization rate is higher than that in other European countries (25% vs. 0-23%). Special family planning programs in the Netherlands target groups at risk of unwanted pregnancy, particularly teenage pregnancy. Almost all secondary schools and about 50% of primary schools address sexuality and contraception. Sex education has largely been integrated in general health education programs. The mass media address adolescent sexuality and preventive behavior. Very large scale, nonmoralistic, public education campaigns that are positive towards teenage sexual behavior appear to be successful. Teens have wide access to contraceptive services through general practitioners who maintain confidentiality and do not require a vaginal exam and through subsidized family planning clinics.

Jenni - posted on 04/06/2011

Yeah, I should have finished reading before I posted. I interpreted it wrong.

Canada wasn't affected as much as the US here is how we were affected in comparison:

"Canada is being affected by a worldwide downturn. The world financial system crisis can be traced to aggressive sub-prime mortgage lenders in the U.S. and to the lax lending standards of western European banks on their loans in eastern Europe. Of all the developed world’s banking sectors, Canada’s is in the best shape. Its conservative and relatively cautious approach meant that, for the most part, Canadian banks did not get involved in the splurge in investing in mortgage-backed securities in the early to mid-2000s. As a result, no Canadian banks have failed or been forced to seek government help. Still, the dramatic decline in U.S. demand for Canada’s exports, together with falling equity values and commodities prices, contributed to a 3.4 per cent contraction in Canada’s real GDP in the fourth quarter of 2008. Overall, Canada’s real GDP grew by only 0.5 per cent in 2008. Because the population growth rate was higher than the GDP growth rate, income per capita fell."



Sorry to go off on my own little tangent on this thread. Just trying to figure out how abortion rates are affected. Why Canada's abortion rates are so low even though we have no criminal law against abortions.

Becky - posted on 04/06/2011

Really? I thought Canada was affected less than the US. Hmmmm.

Jenni - posted on 04/06/2011

COM ate my post. Dana I just added a second link that might provide a little more insight into the effects the recession had. It appears Canada was effected far more than the US. But I didn't read all the details of the page yet.



Edit to add: Ok. Maybe I interpreted that wrong. I should finish reading before I post. :))

Becky - posted on 04/06/2011

I wonder if the difference between the rates in Canada and the US also have to do with our social welfare system here? I think that we have more support for families in general and more support for single parents, so maybe a woman here feels like she has more options? I think our adoption system is better too.

Dana - posted on 04/06/2011

That's from 2004 (US) and 2005 (Can.) Not that it makes much of a difference in this debate but, I am curious how much that has changed with our economic woes.

Jenni - posted on 04/06/2011

@Kati and Krista-- I've done some more research comparing the US to Canada when it comes to poverty. They are also comparable to pop. living below the poverty line:

Out of 141 countries- US ranked 125th with 12% living below the poverty line

Can ranked 121st with 10.8% LBPL.



http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_po...



And income per capita 2008--



Us ranks 2nd out of 17 developed countries



Can ranks 8th (wow. We've been hit hard with the recession).



You can read more details at:



http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/detail...

Cyndel - posted on 04/06/2011

Pro-life...meaning that some people should get the death penalty so that others can have life, instead of being completely destroyed and murdered.
Sometimes it means a mother gives her life for an unborn child.
Sometimes it means an unborn child who is dying anyway die sooner so mother has a chance to possibly survive.

Pro-life can mean someone dies so that one or more others can live.

Sal - posted on 04/06/2011

i only know 3 people who have had abortions, all 3 were mid 20-early 30s, all 3 in long term realtionships so i guess these women aren't the stereotypical patients but all of them didn't think they could cope with a baby at that point, one still has no children and has split from the father of that baby, the other 2 already had 2 children and stayed in their realtionship for as long as i knew them, only one of them regrets the decision, and having heard her story she wasn't given councelling before the procedure, and not long after she had to have a hyterectomy and this changed her view somewhat i think ....i don;t judge these women for having it done, and i am glad that there was a safe option available for them, so i don;t think the reason why a woman make the decision is important it is the fact that they can freely and safely do it is something that is so important to women. i think women who constantly have abortions aren't dealing with it so have far more problems than what we might say about them, i feel very sad for them it seems to me that they are punishing themselves for some reason...but even if a few are abusing this option it shouldn;t make it taboo or more difficult for the women who do find them selves in situation where it is an option for them is far more important for women as a whole..

Teresa - posted on 04/05/2011

I know my cousin's kid (not a kid anymore though) had 2 abortions. Last I heard she was trying to get her 3rd, but that was over a year ago so either she got it or she has a kid now. Yeah, I don't hear too much about my various family members.

Toni - posted on 04/05/2011

That is terrible Johnny :( But I have to say I personally know 2 women who used abortions as birth control. They chose not to go on the pill or force the guys they slept with to wear condoms. One of the women had 3 abortions and the other one had 5. Both of them had full mental capacity, worked good jobs, came from stable homes but both said they had no problems with terminating a pg as a birth control.

Johnny - posted on 04/05/2011

The only person whom I've ever know who had multiple abortions was mentally ill. The spouse of my father's friend. She had severe bipolar disorder which was undiagnosed at the time. She'd left her husband and 3 kids for another man. Cut off contact with her family.



Then she tricked this man, her new husband, into getting her pregnant, telling him that she'd had a tubal ligation. When he found out, he was actually happy and wanted to keep and raise the baby. She freaked out and had an abortion. They divorced.



A year or so later she begged to come back, told him she'd dealt with her issues, and that now she had a relationship with her kids and really wanted to have a child with him. They remarried. He went out and got the vasectomy he'd gotten in the mean time reversed. They conceived a child. She freaked and went and got an abortion. He was devastated and ended up drinking a lot for a while.



One night when he was drunk, they got pregnant again, although he swore he couldn't remember doing it so he was always suspicious. She kept the pregnancy going for quite some time, then took a drug overdose and the baby died.



He divorced her for the second time, moved into a cabin in the woods hundreds of miles from the nearest town and became a hermit for about 5 years. He "recovered" and now has been married to a lovely woman for the last 4 years. He even moved back to a town. She ended up in and out of mental institutions until we lost track of her.



That is the only time I've ever heard of anyone having multiple abortions. I have a very very hard time believing these stories of people treating it casually like birth control. Unless they're missing a screw up there, it's just not that feasible. And if they are not quite here, then perhaps it's a good thing at least that they aren't following through on having children.

Sarah - posted on 04/05/2011

going back a page here.. Esther, you are right! people who have that many abortions should not be parents! lol agreed with Laura's hubby! Tie their tubes! :D
But, one of those sisters (don't remember if it was 9 abortions or 4) DID have a baby not too long ago! I will never understand how someone can happily kill that many babies because, well i assume she was just lazy with contraception, could then decide hmmm i might keep this one!!
I know these mass murderers are the minority but i know too many! A girl from school had 3 by age 16, another had 2, another had her 1st at 13 and then it was kind of an annual thing, another girl got pregnant on purpose, had a fight with the dad and aborted, then got pregnant again, miscarried :( then pregnant again coz she was so torn up about the miscarriage and aborted AGAIN! These are only the multiple terminators that i know about.
Then as i said, that whole family of them, killing at least 12 babies between them! Shit its like winning the lottery to be survive in that family! (or not?)
This is why i feel so strongly about 1 per customer, or getting their tubes tied haha that would work too!

Casey - posted on 04/05/2011

yeah shes a bit of a winner, maybe his not that lucky. it just annoys me that people like her can go out and get pregnant by just glancing sideways at some random guy but there are so many women out there who can't even have one baby or have so much trouble falling pregnant it's just not fair.

Rosie - posted on 04/05/2011

i wouldn't call that kid "lucky" by any means. living with someone who wanted to terminate her pregnancy, yet wasn't allowed? yeah, i feel the love already...

Casey - posted on 04/05/2011

I think it's very hard for someone to look at this topic with a black and white attitude, I know I don't look at it that way cause in my opinion there are situations where you have to make an exception for instance I am very much against abortion however I do think that if you are a victim of rape or incest or the mothers life is at risk or the unborn baby has something drastically wrong with it then you should be given the option however if your just having an abortion because you were to lazy to use contraception then I don't think you should have the option, I know to many girls who have had 3 or 4 abortions because they just couldn't be bothered and I think thats disgusting and something needs to change, I actually know a girl who has had 5 abortions and then got pregnant again and was told she had to keep it cause they couldn't do another abortion on her without causing alot of damage so we call her kid "lucky" cause it's just damn lucky it wasn't one of the previous 5.
As for the death penalty on one hand I would like to see it come back as I think some murders, rapists and pedofiles get off way to lightly however on the other hand how many people are wrongly accused and end up serving time for a crime they didn't commit, it would be terrible to put someone to death and they find out a few weeks later it wasn't them who did the crime.
So I dunno I don't think any situation can be just black and white there is always going to shades of grey and theres always going to be some kind of exception.

Lesa - posted on 04/05/2011

Krista, yes I am in Fredericton... not that far away!

Sara - posted on 04/05/2011

I have a fantasy about taking my pregnant self down to the local PP and volunteering to excort women in during the days they protest. I'd love to parade around in front of those nutters with my big pregnant belly and be like "People deserve a choice". Just my little fantasy.

Veronique - posted on 04/05/2011

I agree with you, there's so much "yeah but only if " with pro life and pro choice that it's hard to define what exactly is pro life and pro choice.

Krista - posted on 04/05/2011

Poverty is likely a big factor, for certain.

I guess that's sort of the fascinating thing. In many ways, Canada and the U.S. are very, very similar. So it's a bit startling to see how the few differences that we do have can make such an enormous impact.

Esther - posted on 04/05/2011

Re. the difference in abortion rates between Canada and the US - the first aspect I'd look into is poverty.

Kimberly - posted on 04/05/2011

oh i agree on hundred percent taking a life sounds like it is black and white but for me i can say i am one of those that is pro choice but i could never go threw with something like that but i feel that it should be the womans choice for one reason and one reason only so woman dont look for other ways for a means to an end my friend a few years back found out she was pregnant wanted to take drugs thank god she didnt but it happens all the time and then instead of one life it becomes both. thats just how i feel dont make woman feel they have no choice

Krista - posted on 04/05/2011

So you're in Fredericton, then? I'm in Amherst!

/waves

Lesa - posted on 04/05/2011

Really!? It takes all kinds!

Krista - posted on 04/05/2011

Charming, aren't they?

And the thing that cracks me up is that according to the workers at several abortion clinics, some of these very protesters have come in themselves, or brought their daughters in.

Because you know, THEY'RE different. But those other baby-murdering sluts...well, they deserve whatever they get.

Lesa - posted on 04/05/2011

I remember seeing an aborted 10 week fetus on one of the signs days after my miscarriage at 10 weeks. I also had my child in the car and he saw it and had lots and lots of questions. I felt like saying "these are intolerant, ignorant people" but of course I didn't.

Krista - posted on 04/05/2011

Sigh, I know, Lesa. I mean, has that kind of bullshit ever actually changed anybody's mind? If these people devoted even 1/10th of those energies into lobbying for improved resources for new mothers, THAT would probably result in a greater drop in abortion rates than those awful signs do.

Jenni - posted on 04/05/2011

There's a dual protest currently going on in my city at the hospital I gave birth at. It's approx 10 city blocks away from my house. It's made up of both pro-choice and pro-life across the street from each other. So far there's been no blood shed amongst the protesters....

Lesa - posted on 04/05/2011

I know that in Fredericton, when the clinic is open there are picketers with aborted babies on signs and are screaming at women who are trying to enter the building. They have hired bodyguards escorting women into the building. I would not want to be a woman walking in there. How scary is that?

Krista - posted on 04/05/2011

Good point, Jennifer. I forgot about the per-capita calculation of hospitals providing abortion.

Yer so smart...

Jenni - posted on 04/05/2011

Yes but you're comparing 123 hospitals to approximately 35 mil people.
and 603 hospitals to 300 mil people.
The US has approx 5759 total hospitals and Canada only has 1365.
Hospitals in general are fairly inaccessable in Northern provinces. The pop density of Nunavut for example is 1 person per 63/sq km or 23/sq miles.
Overall the accessibility in Canada is equal to the US at approx 10% for hospitals that perform abortions.

(Yeah clinic stats would be more difficult to find, so let's just stick to hospitals.)

Rosie - posted on 04/05/2011

totally agree krista,thats why i made sure to point out our sex ed., sucks ass as well. i would also gander that statistically minorities have more abortions, that also means that poverty has a bit to do with the number of pregnancies that are happening.
i simply don't understand how people in this country don't realize how many problems would be solved if we could just start a "war on poverty" instead of wasting our money and time with other crap.

Krista - posted on 04/05/2011

We also have lower teen pregnancy rates. So I don't doubt that's a factor as well. In a way, those statistics are alarming, because people who are trying to restrict choice in the U.S. could look up here and go, "See! Shutting down clinics works! Look at the low abortion rate in Canada!"

And they'd only be looking at one aspect of the equation. If you try to restrict access to abortion, but don't do anything about your unplanned pregnancy rates, that's a recipe for tragedy, IMHO.

Rosie - posted on 04/05/2011

i read that in all of canada there are 123 hospitals that provide abortions in canada (i can't find the number of clinics) compared to united states had 603 hospitals that provided them. i have no clue the number of clinics in either country.

Jenni - posted on 04/05/2011

Thanks Kati. That is informative. So it's influenced a lot by lack of accessability. What is accessability like in the US in comparison?

Rosie - posted on 04/05/2011

i've done a little research on these debates before, and the reasons that i've seen for the less abortion rates in canada, are partially because of your sex education. there are places around here that teach condoms are worthless. yep, worthless. so the kids are still going to have sex, just without condoms. i've also read that canada is so huge, and there aren't very many clinics around. you have to drive hundreds of miles to get it done in some circumstances.
here's a little exerpt from a canadian pro-choice website:

Anti-Choice Bias
A bigger concern than lack of information is when women are subjected to the insidious
behaviour of individuals with anti-choice beliefs who work in hospitals and actively attempt
to deny women their legal right to an abortion. Overall, 15 hospitals across Canada referred
our caller to an anti-choice agency, and 16 hung up on our caller without providing her with
an adequate referral. For years, Canadian women have had to tolerate switchboard operators
self-elected as interpreters of the Canada Health Act or, for that matter, the Charter of Rights
and Freedoms. This is a serious problem in need of redress as hospital policy must clearly
state zero tolerance for employees who deliberately restrict access to a medical service.
Decline in Services
Nationally, an average of only 17.8 per cent of hospitals provide abortion services. Women
in Prince Edward Island and Nunavut have no access to abortion, while women in
Newfoundland, New Brunswick, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan have extremely limited services: only two hospitals in each of these provinces could confirm access. Since the completion of this survey the Moncton Hospital in New Brunswick has ceased providing abortions, thereby forcing women to seek care from the very restricted services of one remaining
hospital in the province doing abortions, or, alternatively, women must pay for the abortion
themselves at the Fredericton clinic. In Nova Scotia, the CARAL caller could confirm only
three hospitals providing abortion services. These statistics provide the quantitative data
behind the stories related by Planned Parenthood affiliates and documented by the caller
from CARAL. Figure 2, below along with the centrefold map of Canada, provides documented evidence of the critical lack of hospital abortion services across Canada:

then it has a graph that shows the lack of services across canada. http://www.canadiansforchoice.ca/caralre...

Esther - posted on 04/05/2011

I just wanted to respond to the story about the woman who had 9 abortions. I think it's anecdotal stories like that that make it seem like women are just casually having abortions left & right. I don't think that's the norm at all. I think those women are the exception to the rule. That being said, if a woman IS that careless and irresponsible, she has no business being a mother. Of course she could then choose to put the child up for adoption rather than abort it, but the reality is that there are countless children in foster care who never get adopted and often have miserable childhoods. There are countless more wasting away in orphanages around the world. The pro-life people want them all to be born and have a chance at life, but they don't want to (or can't) raise these kids any more than their biological parents did. It's heartbreaking, but it's still true.

Jenni - posted on 04/05/2011

Barb... I don't think we have any restrictions on Pornography. We are very liberal here. Besides, everyone has access to the inet. We have legalized escorting, strip clubs, porn shops... my city has 200 000 people and has 8 stripclubs... 10 in it's hay day. We have very liberal views on sex. Escort's licenses are issued and escorts have to get a clean bill of health before practicing. There are tons of massage parlors as well over here. Nearly one on every corner in my DT and surrounding area.

Laura Zoey - posted on 04/05/2011

Barb I tnk it's because when people believe the fetus is a living human being, then they believe it deserves protecting just like a baby who has been born. It's different then a vasectomy or a gallbladder in that it's alive and growing and a separate human being.
So for those who believe the fetus is alive they feel it deserves the same right and protection from it's parents as if a woman killed her baby upon birth.

Barb - posted on 04/05/2011

I'm on the side of, it's nobody's business what my label is. It should be a decision made between myself and my doctor who went to medical school and learned about this medical procedure that i may or may not need and therefore can properly counsel me on the risk and benefits of just as if i was having my gallbladder removed.

Why aren't there any of these giant debates on if courts/congress/senate/lawmakers/etc should get involved when a man has a vasectomy? or does anything to alter his ability to reproduce?

It is a discussion for me and my doctor who here would want me in between them and their dr when they are trying to get medical treatment and have me judging them AND their dr's ability? Because isn't that what is being done?

Krista, i also have to wonder if pornography plays a part in that study, as i believe, doesn't Canada have some restrictive laws about the sex industry, whereas it's rather well represented here in the states.

Krista - posted on 04/05/2011

That IS interesting, Jennifer. We have no restrictions on abortion, but one of the lowest abortion rates per capita.

Do you know if anybody has pinpointed any potential causes for that? I know it's not religion, because we're less religious than the U.S. is. And I think the two countries are pretty similar when it comes to frequency of sex.

I also looked up birth control usage by country. Canada has slightly higher rates of sterilization and of IUD use, but the U.S. has higher rates for virtually every other method of contraception, and a slightly higher overall rate of contraception use.

And yet, the teenage pregnancy rate in the U.S. is TWICE what it is in Canada.

So I don't get it. Is it that Americans are less conscientious with the birth control that they DO use?

Dammit, get me a grant -- I want to do a study on this now!