Progressive pet care

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/14/2011

Ooops, I apologize for the snarky comment about spontaneous ovulation. Somehow I misread your first line of your last comment Jennifer.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/14/2011

And the name is Harbor Mountain ;)

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/14/2011

LOL Jennifer, spontaneous ovulation IS the heat cycle. It can start SPONTANEOUSLY when an intact male cat is around. And as far as those studies go, it is common for large breed dogs to have those issues period. Genetics plays a huge role in how an animal will grow....there is no way to tell how an animal WOULD have grown if it was neutered and compare it. Sorry. Flawed. Once a dog is grown to full maturity, then loses its testosterone supply by being neutered, the MUSCLES can shrink...but not the actual size of the animal.

Jennifer - posted on 12/14/2011

Harbor Mist, first, if a female cat can and does become receptive, breed and have kittens, to lay-men and most vets that is reffered to as a heat cycle. And yes, it happens. Just went through it with a feral cat population here. And maybe I wasn't specific enough for you, but "larger" can be subjective. Most people consider their Great Danes bigger than my English Mastiffs. They are taller, but do not weigh as much, so..... My statement was based on a long term study done at North Shore Animal League. They found that early nueter caused animals to be taller and more gangly, the theory being that the pubestant hormones shut down growth, so with an early nueter the animal grew until the growth plates were tapped out. This also brought fears that tendons and joints would be looser, hence, possible joint problems. If I need to, I can go through my journals and find the article, let me know if you want that info. Of course size of any living being is determined mainly by genetics! So are breed traits such as size. If fact, what makes a dog a certain breed is it's genetics. So, genetics also plays into how slowly a dog matures, but so does the breed(which IS genetics). Size is not the only indication of how slowly a dog will mature, though. Australian Shepherds mature very slowly for a medium sized dog. As far as males looking like males, I've never said that they didn't loose some of the masciline look, but that also happens with later nueters. Females also look less femine, and, at least to me, it is more noticeable with the females. Head shape and size is genetic, the 'look' is determined by hormones. Also, as a mastiff person, I do get what you are saying about SOME people waiting to get more size, but right now toy breeds are all the rage. Why would I want my Cresteds to have a huge head? I.G.'s, Yorkies, Maltese, Chihuahuas? People want them small. Why wait then?
As far as vets being doctors, of course they are, usually right down to the attitude. But the question was the difference between vets and doctors, not human doctors and animal doctors. I hope most people understood what my point was.

Rosie - posted on 12/14/2011

where i live you don't have to register your dog sherri, therefore vaccinations of any sort aren't mandatory.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/14/2011

Oh, and Veterinarians ARE doctors...they are not just LIKE doctors. Just clearing that one up to.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/14/2011

Jenifer, there is so much wrong with your statements, I don't even know where to start. I am just going to stick to the most obvious.

Cats do not naturally go into heat as early as 3 months. Cats do something called spontaneous ovulation, where if they are around intact male cats, can start ovulating at any time. maybe this is what you were talking about. I am sure it can happen, but sexual maturity in female cats is usually over 6 months. On average, I think it is around 8-12 months...but it varies.

The size of a male dog is in direct correlation with genetics and testosterone. If a male dog is not neutered, the muscles get bigger, and their heads get huge....also their size over all is large. If you neuter a dog at the average age of 6 months, the head is smaller, and muscles are not quite as defined naturally....but it all depends on how much you exercise them. Male dogs do NOT get bigger because you neuter them...they are typically smaller because you are cutting out the testosterone that enhances their size. Many owners will not neuter young BECAUSE they want their males as large as they can be, which means they may not neuter until they are around 1 1/2 or older for larger breeds.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/14/2011

Sorry you feel that way Jaime. Some vets know how to be better at making a practice successful, and making money. Not all are scam artists. Veterinary care is not the most lucrative business in the world. Being a vet stems from a hardcore love of animals, and not $$ signs. One experience with one greedy vet should not set your entire belief system against them. it is truly unfortunate your experience led you to feel that way. BUT, your words "I'm not a very good animal activist" may have helped you see all the negatives instead of all the good work that was being done. It sounds like your own beliefs or feelings may have tainted your views to seek out the negative.

Jamie - posted on 12/13/2011

I worked for a vet in college.... a highly reputable one. Famous in the vet world... From that experience I believe they are all scam artists.

As far as vaccinations go, I had an African Serval (called a poor man's cheetah) and wild cats and hybrid variations cannot have live vaccines- only killed ones or they will die. I'm curious if that is really more of a safe choice for all animals. I bet it is all the same.

With that being said I'm not a very good animal activist. I think it is great other people are, because I definitely suck at it! My fish died and I was too lazy to take him out to flush him. So I let him disintegrate in the filer, changed the filter, and put a new fish in. I didn't even change the water #horribleperson

Jennifer - posted on 12/13/2011

I would like to add about cats being allowed outside- In the 'country', their predators are numerous- owls, coyotes, loose dogs, angry neighbors- plus, cats wreck havoc on wild species. Many birds and herps are close to being gone due to cats. They are the perfect predator. They will also hunt regardless of how well fed. As a child, all my many dozens of cats were indoor/outdoor. Most were gone before age seven. Never knew what happened to most. Only one lived to be 11, and she would rarely go outside. Now that I keep them indoors, it is rare to loose one before it's teen years. The cat I got 2 months before my son was born is still going strong, at 21!

Jennifer - posted on 12/13/2011

Vaccination is highly controversial, but most states and cities require it yearly. Rabies vaccs are usually 3 year vaccs anyway. The other vaccines are usually required for just about anywhere you want to take your pet, shows, obedience classes, preformance events.......although many times the requirments are stated but not inforced. My vet does titer test to see if pets need more shots.

Weaning age has been pushed down to 6 weeks due to vaccinices. The pup needs to be weaned 2 weeks before the first shot, or the antibodies in mom's milk render it useless. Puppies should be with their mom for at least 8 weeks, preferrably 10, and some breeds really should be with their litter and breeder for 12! Three of 'my breeds' should be with mom for 12 weeks, but for diffrent reasons. Chinese Crested's need the heat, and can suffer from hypoglycemia at young ages(as do most toy breeds). English Mastiffs are very slow to mature(again, most giant breeds do) and are such babies at 6 weeks. Really, they don't really even play together, they are just barely moving around much! Rotties are much too difficult to evaluate temperment wise at 8 weeks! Rotts are suppose to be dominate dogs, so it is important to make sure a puppy goes to a home that can handlle it! Mom is also the first disciple a pup gets, she will teach manners much better than a person can!

Spay and nueter have people on both sides. I prefer earlier than later. Cats can come into heat as early as 3 months, and once sexual behavior starts, it is hard to stop. With dogs, size has a lot to do with it. My Crested's can start 'hiking' at 4 months, my mastiff's usually don't until 18 months. One thing early nueter does cause is bigger mature size, and a ganglier appearance. This is not noticed by an avaerage pet owner, but can cause some joint problems. It is also said to cause urinary problems, but I've never had it happen. Other things are brought up, but honestly, altering a pet has been lied about from day one! The health benefits that are always touted are just not that great, it is, and has always been about overpopulation.

Pet health takes just as much study as human health, and vets are like doctors. Some are only 'by the book' and others are open to new ideas. I worked in an animal shelter for 8 years, and the vet students and advisors came one a week. I got a lot of 'hands on'. Our worst fear was one advisor who would only allow approved treatments. In a shelter it is a rush to get an animal out. For every week it stays an animal dies. Dogs with demadex or sarcopties could be healed and adopted with 3 weeks treatment of ivomec, or 8 weeks of the dips. Both were toxic to the dogs, but the dips were also toxic to the people treating. Ivomec was not approved to use on dogs at the time. We did anyway! I also have used colloidal silver to protect my pups from parvo. Oral honey instead of sugar water injections for blood sugar. Many things my vet doesn't offer or approve! But to be fair, my questioning of medical practices started with my friendships with vets, who are much more open to say 'I don't know' and 'we can try this'. Vets tend to loose their patients if low cost options are not offered.

April - posted on 12/13/2011

Well I know next to nothing about being a pet owner because I've never been one (aside from our snakes), but I just want to say I will never shop at our local PetC0!! We had a flood back in September. We knew it was coming. The employees wanted to take the animals home until after the flood, but the bosses refused. 0ver 100 animals drowned. :(

Sherri - posted on 12/13/2011

Vaccinations well rabies vaccination is not optional for dogs especially since it is mandated by EVERY pet owner and you must show proof of it to be able to register your dog. I honestly don't know of any controversies to vaccinations for pets.

I also am told that dry food for my cats is better than wet food. Especially for their teeth.

No we do not spay or neuter too young. The earlier the better actually.

My vet does not recommend science diet actually and have never actually had a vet that did.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/13/2011

For the most part I think it is best for pets to be indoors. But, I do think in circumstances where you live in a pretty much country setting, I don't see a problem with cats being out doors. But, here is the check off list:



spay or neuter pet before letting outside!!!!!!!!!!!!

and DO NOT declaw your cat if you EVER intend on letting it outside.



Annual vaccinations:

Rabies (1 or 3 year)

Distemper (1 or 3 year)

Fiv (yearly)

Felv

Fip (if available...yearly)



Annual fecal exam



Flea and tick preventative along with Heartworm preventative:



Revolution- contains dewormer, heartworm preventative, mange preventative, ear mite preventative, and flea preventative (which would also prevent tape worms, unless a flea is ingested from eating a mouse or other flea ridden animals)



Make sure you have a system to get cat back indoors-

many people will feed their cats wet food....get them use to feeding time my tapping side of the can with a spoon so they associate food with the noise and they will come running home



Annual vet care



Microchip incase pet gets lost



Do not live near a busy street where cats can get hit by car

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/13/2011

It should not be looked at as a threat....or your vet should not make doing a dental a threat. What a shitty thing of him/her to have done.

Elfrieda, that is the whole point. Cats swallow it whole, or get one bite in. Truly it does nothing for their teeth, and the benefits of getting extra water with wet food is so important for cats. You will have Doctors that swear by one, and curse the other and vice versa. I think it boils down to common sense at a point. I have been witness to doctors who ONLY gave dry to their cats, and ONLY recommended dry to owners...then saw new studies and changed their minds. I could potentially see a cats teeth getting worse with a low grade cat food, and the cat tends to not drink enough water to wash the food off the teeth...but I don't see any benefit for my cat eating kibble and throwing up what are clearly full chunks of undigested food.

Elfrieda - posted on 12/13/2011

That's interesting that you say wet cat food is better than dry. Last time I took our cat in for her vaccinations, the vet threatened that if her teeth get much worse, they will want to put her under and clean them (don't know if we would agree to that), and one way to keep it from getting worse is by just feeding her dry food, no wet.

I'm not doing that, because wet food at 5:30 each day is the joy of her life. But it's true that she doesn't really chew her food anyway, so what's the difference?

Maybe I should lock her in the basement to supplement her "raw food" intake. ;)

Mary - posted on 12/13/2011

Yes, from what I understand, dental health is a particularly huge issue with cats, who do tend to have a higher frequency of renal disease. I do think Lisa's ideas have merit in that regard. As I said, both my cat and my father's cat lived to be to be pretty old. Although - I didn't feed them a raw diet...they took care of that on their own ;-). My vet, although admittedly on the fence about the safety of allowing cats outdoors, did acknowledge that both of these cats had extraordinarily healthy teeth. Neither cat ever needed to have a professional cleaning (and she evaluated that yearly), and both of them died with every tooth they were born with intact. She repeatedly told us that it was because their teeth were meant, and need to be crunching on little bird/mouse/rabbit bones.

I also think that in places like America, where so many people who have pets treat them like small children rather than animals, you have issues people overfeeding them, and not giving them the necessary amount of daily exercise. I mean, really - we live in a society where people carry their dogs around in purses, or (even more bizarre to me) can purchase doggy "strollers". Just like their owners, a lot of pets lead a lifestyle that is entirely too sedentary, and there are many, many obese dogs and cats out there.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/13/2011

Forgot to mention, we prepped the dog with high levels of antibiotics before the procedure to prevent further infection when we had to extract teeth, then was continued on antibiotics after the procedure. Also, we prescribed antibiotics for the first 5 days of every month for eseentially the rest of the dogs life to ward off infection from the mouth. This was a chronic issue with this dog, and I new many that needed to be on antibiotics like this. You would not believe how well it worked! Amazing. I should also add this was an 8 year old yorkie.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/13/2011

I believe it Krista. We were treating a dog with heart failure, and kidney failure, his mouth was herrendous. We took the risk of giving him a light anesthesia, and gave him a dental...the owners knew he did not have long to live, and the dental could prolong his life...or because of his failing liver and heart, he could die on the table. Within a month his kidney levels improved and was off of the heart medication. This was in conjunction of a kidney formula diet, and continued his heart meds until he no longer needed it. It is amazing how much can be contributed to bad teeth.

Krista - posted on 12/13/2011

Yeah, tooth care is big. When we got our Lhasa, his teeth were in TERRIBLE shape. And his kidneys were slowly failing. His previous owner used to give him a lot of those salty, processed treats (like Beggin' Strips.) So between the salt in those treats, and the constant infection running through his body from his diseased teeth, it was no wonder his kidneys were on their last proverbial legs. After we had his teeth cleaned (and a bunch extracted), his energy level and disposition improved drastically -- it was like he was a different dog.

Kate CP - posted on 12/13/2011

*nods* True, very true. People forget about a dog's teeth. They just assume doggie breath is normal. :/

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/13/2011

Don't forget heart disease, lack of dental care leads to that also.

Kate CP - posted on 12/13/2011

Over breeding, lack of veterinary care, lack of DENTAL care, and diet is what contributes to issues like renal failure and diabetes.

Mary - posted on 12/13/2011

"Ok, but the question is, WHY are we having dogs and cats with diabetes and renal failure?"

I don't think that the answer to that question is as simple as a diet of store-bought cat or dog food. I think there are a host of factors that can contribute to the development of these conditions. Hell, even if I fed my dogs the raw diet that you subscribe to with your cats, the truth is, since my daughter has been about one, those two are now eating all kinds of crap they really shouldn't be...and not all of it is "food" ;) (The boys have a genuine fondness for moon dough, play dough, colored pasta and rice). Now, in my household, the main culprit of feeding them crap they shouldn't eat is a toddler, but I think if surveyed most households across America, you would find that most owners feed their dogs all kinds of "treats" from their tables on a daily basis.

I think you also have to look at the fact that domesticated animals have their life span lengthened simply by living in a home. Most cats and dogs who live in the wild don't live to the ages that house pets do. Once you remove the threat of natural predators and provide a stable source of food and water, you do tend to increase their life span. So, if a mature cat develops renal disease, is it necessarily a diet of "processed" foods, or is it just senescence?

My cat lived to be 17, and my dad's cat just died at 18. My childhood dog, a 100lb Lab (not obese, just BIG) lived to be 15. Although both cats were indoor/outdoor pets who did eat a lot of "natural" prey, the Lab's diet consisted mainly of plain old dog food. In retrospect, he ate total crap - Purina Dog chow; however, he was born in 1976, so that was pretty standard for the times. My own dogs - mixed breeds also on the bigger side - are now 8 and 9.5 years old. With all of these animals, I don't think anyone could make the claim that a diet of store-bought, processed foods have caused them ill-effects. Granted, this is just my own, anecdotal experience with animal ownership - but my family must be doing something right, since all of animals tend to live pretty long, healthy, and active lives.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

Yeah, mid west is cheaper, but wisconsin and minnesota cost more to drive to and is more difficult to get to during bad weather.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

Dude, see if you can order it online...it might be cheaper???

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

Wisconsin and I go to pet-smart. There's a petco a fee cities over but I bet our prices are just more in this area. Weird, usually things would be cheaper in the mid west then in the east coast area

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

I am in Massachusetts, I go to petco, where are you at?

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

I'm spending about .30 cents per cat per day.

Wow

1 can of blue is $1.50.

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

This is the start of the list off of a blue bag
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Salmon Meal, Whole Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Cranberries, Blueberries, Flaxseed (natural source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal,

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

Really! That sucks! Where do you live? Lol and that's sale prices!

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

Yeah reading the ingredient list isn't too nice, chicken meal, ground rice, wheat flour, corn gluten meal, poultry fat,dried plain beet pulp, 'natural flavors' (what the heck does that mean!), soybean oil, rice flour, chicken, tomato pomace, oat fiber, yeast culture, potassium chloride, salt, menhaden fish oil, chlorine chloride, barley malt, and on.
How much grain crap can be in here!

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

WOWZA Laura! I only pay about 20 for a 15lb bag. Wholly crapola!

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

Blue buffalo is 15lbs for $34 and max is 16lbs for $20

I agree it's far better but it's also far more money!

Maybe we should give them better food, idk

Kate CP - posted on 12/12/2011

Nutro Max is crap. It's full of corn and wheat and soy. Blue Buffalo is awesome food and yes, feeding canned food to cats is better for them than dry food. It reduces the strain on kidneys, has less magnesium and phosphates, and has more protein than kibble. The best way to care for a cat's teeth is to brush them.

...now that you're done laughing, I would suggest you not worry about the cat's teeth. ;)

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

Rebecca for cats this is the 3 year that can be used as a 3 year OR a 1 year

http://ca.merial.com/cats/imrab.asp



This is the feline 1 year and it is mixed with sterile saline

http://ca.merial.com/cats/purevax-rabies...

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

I use blue buffalo, it is actually cheaper than Science Diet. My cat loves it. You can get some cans of it, still offer dry food free feed, and just get really good canned food. 1 large can split between 2 cats will be a days worth of feeding...or you could give 1/4 can as a special treat per day and have it last 2 days.

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

I worked at pet smart for a year and I spent a ton of time trying to figure out the best foods and max was, in my opinion, right above science diet or Eukenuba and pro plan but below blue buffalo or nutro natural choic. But it's priced just above beneful so it was the brand we most recommended for people who were hesitent to do the price of blue we would recommend a nutro

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

For cats....lol...they are a pain in the ass to brush their teeth....I don't recommend it unless you want to spend some time in the ER yourself. Truly, and fully honestly....if a cat has dental problems, they need a dental.

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

Ya now what? That's absolutely true! Why hadn't I realized that. I just cleaned up a pile of barf from gabe yesterday and it was full of whole pieces. And pink stuff" :-/ random I know. I searched the house trying to figure out what pink he ate but I have NO idea! Anyways, ill look into wet food. Thanks! What IS recommended for teeth care?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

I can honestly say I don't know nutro max brand...anyone know?? Kate? Any opinion on nutro max? I know a lot of clients that would use it, and I think it is suppose to be good, but truly no clue.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

Ok, so here is the thing about wet vs dry food. Ever feed your cat dry....then they have a hair ball or drink to much and throw up? Notice how the pieces are full? They do not really chew the food the way a dog will, which means their teeth are not benefiting from it the way it is assumed they should. Wet food is just fine, and it supplies them with more water. Dry, they don't get water from...they need to drink more to suppliment. Some doctors are totally against dry, some totally for it...really, to be quite honest....I think wet is better....Cats need a lot of water and it helps them...plus they actually chew wet food. Get a good brand.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

Rebecca, yes that is true, it can be a vaccination that is mixed, or a vile that comes to the clinic already prepared. Yes, there are 2 different ones for cats. But, the vaccination given to dogs is the same shot from a 1 year to a 3 year. The difference? Price and paperwork. The same can be used for cats...using a 3 year rabies as a 1 year.

I don't know all the ingredients granted, but I assure you it is the truth. I suppose it all depends on the manufacturer and what your clinic uses as a supplier...but non the less it is how it works.

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

I was worried about that too marina but he definetly positioned to poop. I was organizing the kitchen and he went in ther 5 times in 30 minutes" I kept watching and it was always to poop.
Isn't wet bad for their dental health? Idk, maybe a mix? They eat nutro max indoor chicken or salmon. Not what I'd like to feed them but it's the best that we can afford right now

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

No, I think it is to young, but I understand the reasoning it is done so young.

As far as your pet drinkiing plenty, make whatever source readily available...and you can always start giving wet good quality food instead of dry. Constipation can be a major problem in cats. If it continues, talk to your vet. They can get really sick from it. What type of food do you have them on now? I have a water bubbler for my cat, I could not keep up on the maintenance of it....and my daughter really enjoyed playing in it so I had to put it away for the time being.

Also, are you sure your cat is continuously going to the pan to poop? Male cats can block...constant visits to the litter pan can be a sign of urinary issues also. Is he making urine?

Rebecca - posted on 12/12/2011

The 3 year rabies vaccine contains an adjuvant (sp?); the 1 year does not. The adjuvant (that allows the vaccine to "last" 3 years) is what is believed to cause the tumors, particularly aluminum based adjuvants. So they are not the same. The actual rabies portion is the same, but that's not what causes the problem. You can't get a 3 year rabies vaccine without an adjuvant.

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

And what's the best way to ensure my cat is getting enough water? He doesn't like drinking out of the toilet like gabey does, and he will only drink fresh water, like super fresh. I want to get them one of those water bubblers but they're like $30+. How much should a cat be drinking? I think he's constipated cuz he's going to the litter box SO often. Squatting to poop, one teeny piece, then leaves. And repeat.
The other cat has normal poops. I wish I could feed them raw but financially it's not a possibility

Laura Zoey - posted on 12/12/2011

So, harbor mountain, :), do you think spaying and neutering at 8 weeks is safe?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 12/12/2011

Great points Kate.

Who knows Lisa? No one for sure. You cannot simply place blame on the processed foods for all of these diseases, when many of them are genetic. Or an animal has other predispostions to them. I know one of my own dogs was born with very small, poor functioning kidneys.

There is no research as far as I know, or could really be done to test the theory out. I think if you feed a high grade dog/cat food, supply regular vet care, water, love, excercise, you will have just as happy of a pet than one that gets home made food....and just as healthy. You feed them Ol'e Roy, or fatty ground beef...well you are gonna have problems with both. Quantity and quality go a long way.

Kate CP - posted on 12/12/2011

The pet food/vet food debate is a long one that will likely never be resolved. Some people think that by feeding kibble you're killing your pet. And some people think that by feeding whole/raw foods you're killing your pet. Which is best for the animal?

Honestly, a dog food kibble isn't going to kill your dog unless it's seriously contaminated or your dog has special needs. If you feed a high-quality dog food with minimal fillers and high protein content then your dog should thrive. Feeding a raw diet is really good for dogs but can come with it's own set of risks. If you're not willing to put a good amount of effort into learning how to properly feed a raw diet then you should stick with kibble.