Should doctors be allowed to refuse abortion referal due to their own religion?

Vegemite - posted on 02/23/2011

I just find it interesting and a little stirring, troubling I can't think of a good word that you are a practicing Catholic but don't respond well to the use of the word of God. Also that you said this in a previous post: I am a practicing Catholic who believes in abortion, pre-marital sex, all forms of birth control, oh and I am fine with multiple partners as long as you are not married already...or cheating...but I guess that falls under the lines of pre-marital sex.

Maybe it's because you also said you believe in freedom of choice in your beliefs but you've chosen a religion that has different beliefs than yourself.
Anyway that would be a private discussion, I just find it hard to understand since I try to live by scripture and prayer.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/23/2011

Thank you then.

Vegemite - posted on 02/23/2011

forgive me marina i thought that scripture is what Christians lived their life by if not then what's the point of having the Bible. I can give scripture for that too but since you don't respond well to it I won't bother.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/23/2011

@ Christine "Well Christians believe abortion to be a sin ( I can get scripture for why that is too Marina as you said you were a Practicing Catholic) "

No thank you.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/23/2011

Yes Christine, I am practicing Catholic, and am fully aware of that fact.....I just don't respond to people reciting scripture very well, simply to back up what they are trying to say.

Vegemite - posted on 02/23/2011

Well Christians believe abortion to be a sin ( I can get scripture for why that is too Marina as you said you were a Practicing Catholic) so to refer someone to sin would be against his beliefs and not in the best interest for anyone involved. Not for him or his patients and certainly out of his duty of care.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/23/2011

????........ok then......??????? not sure what else to say.

Vegemite - posted on 02/23/2011

This is why Christian doctor should not or would not want to refer for an abortion, no matter their denomination.

Luke 17:1-3
1 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/23/2011

I agree with you Joy!

Krista, part of their swearing in as a doctor is to "do no harm" If a doctor thinks abortion is harmful, then referring to one they can say the same. This is not a huge "where do we draw the line" issue...I think the bs in South Dakota (or is it north) is problematic. There are so many other venues than just your doctors written referal. First of all, I have never even heard of a doctor needing to refer for an abortion...but giving a referal means, "yes, I want my client to receive this abortion and I approve" If a doctor is morally opposed, who is to say they should be forced to? Do you believe in spanking your child? It is not illegal, and many people believe in it...should you be forced to do it?

Joy - posted on 02/23/2011

I've been thinking about this since I first posted and I think this sums it up for me. Hypothetically, let's say I'm an attorney (I'm totally not lol). If a man walked in my door and asked me to defend him against charges of child molestation, I'd deny him my services. By law, he's entitled to a vigilant defense, but it would go against my moral fiber to defend him. I know, innocent until proven guilty, but because of how I feel (and most of us feel) about the issue of molestation, I could not in any way provide a full on defense for someone who may possibly be guilty.



It's the same with doctors and abortion. Their moral code is going to affect what they will and will not do. It doesn't make them bad doctors, it just makes them human and as long as the doctor isn't shoving his / her religion down someone's throat, then they have every right to refuse to perform a procedure based on how they feel morally. I think abortion should be legal but I would never have one myself. And if I were a doctor and a patient of mine wanted me to perform one, I'd refuse her. I would, however, be willing to give her information on where she could go for a safe procedure. I just wouldn't feel right performing the procedure myself, unless it was something that was life threatening for her.

Kaleigh - posted on 02/23/2011

I'm just going to add here that there is a difference between providing information on and making somthing accessible. The issue isn't that the doctor wouldn't provide information about abortions or where to get one it was that he wouldn't sign his name to the refferral to personally make it accessible. If I was the doctor and my religion/beliefs demanded that I not have a hand in abortion I wouldn't do one, I wouldn't sign the refferal but I think it'd be fine to hand the lady a phonebook and point out either a clinic or other doctors who would sign one. This lady knew what she wanted though so I don't see why his refusal would have been anything more than an inconvenience I mean common sense would dictate if you knew enough about abortion to want one done and went as far as to ask for the referral you would also be perfectly capable of seeking one out elsewhere if you were denied.

As for the question 'where does it end?' well where does anything end really? There will always be people who take it to far but does that make it right to enfringe on every other persons right to make decisions based on their beliefs?

Joy - posted on 02/23/2011

And to clarify, I'm not religious in any way. But I also know that there is no way to keep religion or religious beliefs out of people's every day life. There is seperation of church and state, but we still see the president praying and going to church. You can pick a kosher doctor, a witch doctor, a catholic doctor, an athiest doctor, a christian doctor.....there are all kinds of people out there....doctors are just people. Not all people believe the same way. Like I said before, if your doctor won't perform the abortion, go somewhere else. It's not that difficult to find an abortion clinic.

Joy - posted on 02/23/2011

I don't have a problem with a doctor refusing to perform an abortion, or to give a referral for one. Doctors are human beings and have the right to practice medicine and follow their hearts at the same time. It happens in many professions.

Some churches refuse to marry people who aren't members of the congregation.
Lawyers can turn down cases they are morally opposed to.
Why shouldn't doctors be able to follow their own moral compasses? If you want an abortion (and I totally feel like it should be legal and accessible), and your doctor won't perform one for you, go somewhere else. Simple as that.

Krista - posted on 02/23/2011

Where's the line, though? This sets SUCH a dangerous precedent, if we agree that a doctor can refuse to provide INFORMATION based on their religious beliefs.

For a GP to refuse to refer someone to a specialist, because of their religion...that's just really awful.

Marina, you asked about the doctor's rights? Well, the doctor has the right to not perform the abortion.

But if we go so far as to say that a doctor can refuse to give a REFERRAL, because of their religious beliefs? I think that is taking things way too far. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Vegemite - posted on 02/22/2011

Sarah his religion has him believe that sex before marriage is wrong not having babies is wrong there for caring for you and baby baby after the fact and caring for those who need his care is exactly what his religion tells him to do. If his attitude is any different than he doesn't obey God



Mathew 25:34-40

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’



37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’



40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

April - posted on 02/22/2011

where would the line be if medical professionals were to be allowed to refuse doing a procedure or refuse giving a referral to a patient? I say what happened to your friend is wrong.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/22/2011

Case in point, I am a practicing Catholic who believes in abortion, pre-marital sex, all forms of birth control, oh and I am fine with multiple partners as long as you are not married already...or cheating...but I guess that falls under the lines of pre-marital sex. But I also believe in freedom of choice in your beliefs, and would never want to force any doctor to refer/perform abortions that does not believe it is the right thing to do morally.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/22/2011

Ok, yes catholic are suppose to not believe in pre marital sex, and no contriception, but ladies...give me a break. this is a new day and age, and people will believe what they want despite what their religion tells them they are suppose to believe. Some people are just more hardcore than others....and condoms are a far cry from an abortion.

Sarah - posted on 02/21/2011

Christine - no he could of told me to find another doctor trust me catholics believe that sex before marriage is a mortal sin....and he could of also told me he wasn't going to put implanon in my arm after having my son and they also don't believe in contraception

Lacye - posted on 02/21/2011

As long as the doctor isn't pushing his or her personal beliefs on the patient, then I think they can refuse a referral. They aren't blocking the person from getting one, the person can find somebody else to do it.

Vegemite - posted on 02/21/2011

Sarah your doctor's religion would tell him to take care of you and your baby no matter the circumstances surrounding your pregnancy. So he chose both.

Stephanie - posted on 02/21/2011

Katherine- Medicaid wouldnt pay for an abortion anyway though, right? If it does we have a bigger problem on our hands than referral refusals! To each her own but damn, don't use my tax dollars to pay for your abortion. Would that give me the right to stop paying taxes bc I dont believe in abortion just as a doc can refuse to refer??? I'm all for that!

Jackie - posted on 02/21/2011

No... a doctor shouldn't be legally able to refuse unless he determines it shares a health risk to the patient

Sarah - posted on 02/21/2011

@Christine - not necessarily he could of referred me to another doctor if he wanted to as i already know my doctor is a strict catholic (we attended the same church for many years) but he chose to be professional rather than religious and i think he knew my grandmother would throw the book at me (she didn't) so he thought one less person judging me would do me the world of good

Katherine - posted on 02/21/2011

Ah true didn't think of that duh.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/21/2011

Katherine, I know in the us, there are a TON of planned parenthoods...alot of them are affiliated with abortion clinics. If someone needs one, they will be paying out of pocket. Who is to say that any of the doctors that you go to have any abortion clinics to refer you to in the first place?

Katherine - posted on 02/21/2011

Another huge problem is that the person could be on medicaid...which everyone knows you need referrals for. THEN what do you do?

If your doctor won't refer you, you have nowhere to go.

Erin - posted on 02/21/2011

Doctors refusing to refer or perform a specific procedure is not new. Australian doctors began rejecting Routine Infant Circ in the 1980s because they were both morally opposed and believed it had no therapeutic benefit.

I am not comparing abortion to RIC in any way other than the fact it can be a controversial topic. Even now, we get the odd family asking for a referral for circ. They do not get them routinely, and that is based on the doctors' personal moral and medical opinion. But they are given the name of the only doctor in the city who does it. So again, their access to the service is not blocked.

Vegemite - posted on 02/21/2011

Saying this again for you Mike, taking care of someone post fact and referring someone to a procedure that a doctor believes is morally wrong are two completely different things.

....and what Laura just said also the right to refusal and a patients right to see another dr.

Isobel - posted on 02/21/2011

They Hippocratic oath, however forces them to "do no harm". If they feel that abortion is murder, then obviously they cannot perform abortions...sending them to another doctor however, is a gray area to me.

Isobel - posted on 02/21/2011

Stephanie, I am in Canada, and I was refused a referral to see a doctor (just for a check up) because I was pregnant and my GP feared that I MAY want an abortion because that doctor sometimes performed them...had I been in a smaller town I would not have been able to seek the referral elsewhere.

Sharon - posted on 02/21/2011

the doctor is supposed to act in his patients best interest.

He is in a unique position that he is paid for. No one else can do what he does and that gives him a power over everyone else.

he is obligated to provide at the least, the information his patient wants.

What if the doctor is against premarital sex and feels an STD is your just desserts and doesn't tell you that you have syphilis? Or says those symptoms are due to such-n-such and gives you an ineffectual treatment?

Its the same. You get pregnant don't want it, you get an std don't want it. But the doctor feels you should have it.

Its NOT HIS CALL. It is however his responsibility to AT LEAST tell you where to get treatment.

That is what we pay him for. Well, here in the US anyway. I can promise you - even if he doesn't give you the referral here, he's submitting a bill to your insurance company or you paid before seeing him.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/21/2011

@ Jennifer, I am was giving a reason for the cashier selling meat. I was in the situation and I was giving the mentality behind it...atleast for me. I could NEVER work in a slaughter house, seeing all the animals being killed, and all the hanging carcasses to drain the blood...all the death noises...and I can certainly understand if a Dr is morally opposed to abortion, that they will not perform them or give them referals,

I keep seeing about "patient rights" well what the fuck happened to the Doctors rights?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/21/2011

Krista (yet another one for you...you just put up a good debate that I cannot help but argue! ;) )
"So let's say you have a woman who is about 8 weeks along and just found out she's pregnant. She wants to terminate the pregnancy, so she makes an appointment with her doctor so that she can get a referral. Her appointment is for the following week. She has her appointment and her doctor won't refer her. "

That hypothetical situations goes on to say she has to search for a doctor that will refer her...well chances are if the town is that small, there won't be an abortion clinic in it...it will be also in the next big town over...so might as well take the time to drive to a place that is going to do it with no referals and no questions asked.

Jenni - posted on 02/21/2011

Sorry Marina, not really... the doctor isn't the one preforming the abortion the same as you aren't the one slaughtering the animal.

And I think we're on the same page concerning a doctor with no morals. As I said if I didn't agree with my current doctor's morals or idealogy I'd have to find another doctor more suitable for me.

I am pretty much on the fence about this one. It's just a part of me doesn't believe there should be so much red tape when it comes to getting an abortion. I believe getting an abortion is a personal choice every woman should beable to make herself. So that's why i'm struggling a bit on this one. But as I'm already aware of this is a hypothetical situation; you don't need a referral and I guess if you did you could just look else where.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/21/2011

@ Krista "I don't buy that. Roe vs. Wade was in 1973. That's thirty-four years ago. So virtually ALL doctors practicing today, except for those on the verge of retirement, chose to go to medical school knowing that abortion is a legal medical procedure."

Yes, Doctors understand that abortions are legal., that is not the point. Would you expect every Doctor to perform abortions simply becouse they are legal? It would go against there speciallty mostlikely. Those who opt to perform aborttions are in that specific field. If you need an abortion, go to those places, not your regular doctor who does not even perform them.

If I walked into my doctors office saying that I have migraines and I NEED a referal to go to a neurologists, do you think he/she is automatically going to do it? Nope....there are procedures and protocols for a reason. You may not like it, but that is how it is. I would prefer to go to a doctor that is ethical and moral rather than someone that has not emotions or beliefs...there are plenty of other venues that can be pursued.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 02/21/2011

Ok, to answer the vegetarian portion of the previous statements....I have been for 17 years...6 of wich I was a cashier at a grocery store. I am morally opposed to eating meat...yet I sold it. I could have worked at a healthfood store if there were any around, or a fruit and veggie store..yet I chose to work were they sold meat...not where they actually slaughtered the animall.....see the difference? But yes some people would have an issue with sellijng it also. But that is why I could never and would never waitress...I knew how I would respond to someone asking about a meat dish..I perhaps would make animal noises at them and bring them a plate of broccoli instead.

Me for one, I would NOT want a doctor that didn't have morals. If his/her morals say they will not perform/refer abortions, so fucking be it. I will go to a walk in clinic and get what I want done.

Jenni - posted on 02/21/2011

Point taken. I guess I could substitute Islamic for vegetarian and pork for any kind of meat.

And I don't believe any *boss* would be so accomidating. But I guess that's kind of comparing apples to oranges in this situation because a doctor is his own boss.

The vegetarian would have to consider this when taking a job as a cashier. Would his morals interfere with his job? If so, he'd probably have to consider a different line of work.

As many have already pointed out you don't need a referral anyways. So this situation wouldn't happen and if it did I guess you'd just have to find another doctor who would refer you.

My family doctor is really against prescribing anything unless absolutely necessary. He takes a more natural approach to his practice. His ideology is if it won't kill you it's best to use natural remedies rather than take prescription drugs. If you're not of the same mind then you're going to get really frustrated having him as a doctor and your better off to find a different doctor.

Katherine - posted on 02/21/2011

Just getting in here, but if a doctor has a preference then so be it. At least he/she is being honest.
There was another thread similar to this and it was about the same thing basically. A doctor who wouldn't see a patient anymore because he had found out she had had an abortion.

Vegemite - posted on 02/21/2011

Sarah and Krista taking care of someone post fact and referring someone to a procedure that a doctor believes is morally wrong are two completely different things.



Jennifer there are two things wrong with your scenario: 1. Muslims don't believe eating pork is morally wrong, they believe it's unclean. 2. That would be something a cashier would have to take up with their boss not the customer.

Jenni - posted on 02/21/2011

Just a thought but... if I were Islamic and was a cashier in a grocery store. I believed it was morally wrong to eat pork. A customer piles up their groceries at my till. Included in their groceries is some pork tenderloin. Could I refuse to ring it in and suggest they go to another till? Because I believe it's morally wrong to consume pork?

Krista - posted on 02/21/2011

my doctor looked after me during my pregnancy even though he believed sex before marriage was wrong but as he said "sometimes i have to do things that i don't like because thats what my patient wants"

Exactly. Now THAT is being a good doctor. He has his morals, he's not necessarily hiding them, but he's able to understand that when he puts on his "doctor" hat, his professional obligations come first.

Sarah - posted on 02/21/2011

no i don't think so. if you're a doctor sometimes you have to do things against your belief. my doctor looked after me during my pregnancy even though he believed sex before marriage was wrong but as he said "sometimes i have to do things that i don't like because thats what my patient wants"

Stephanie - posted on 02/20/2011

Angela- No, I wasn't talking specifically about you. Just the whole thing in general.



Jessica- How could that happen when you don't need a referral for an abortion in Canada? Was she asking for a referral for insurance payment purposes or a referral as in advice of where to go? If it's advice or direction, no one is obligated to give that information. It's simple enough to find out on your own anyway.



EDIT TO ADD:

The question of if it was for insurance purposes doesn't really matter or apply either bc you don't need a referral in any scenario in the US or Canada. So how did this happen?

Sharon - posted on 02/20/2011

They should have the right to refuse to perform an abortion.

They should be OBLIGATED to refer their patient who has paid them for care and services in the past. Their patients generally trust them.

On the other hand - OPEN THE PHONE BOOK. Start making phone calls.

Jessica - posted on 02/20/2011

@stephanie... this was y post, YES this did happen right here in CALGARY ALBERTA CANADA, and i have heard that happen numures of times, this happened to my cousin. Just a few weeks ago

Teresa - posted on 02/20/2011

I have state health insurance and I don't need a referral from my GP to see any OBGYN that I want. Which insurances make you get a GP's referral for that?

As for the OP.... Legally I 'think' I'm 'supposed' to say no, but morally I say yes.

Angela - posted on 02/20/2011

"Angela I wasn't meaning that you said the doctor was liable but just pointing out if a patient gives up on their own health because one doctor refused to give a referral then the only person responsible is themselves."

I absolutley agree with that,but lots of people are stupid that way,I was just playing devils advocate.

Vegemite - posted on 02/20/2011

Stephanie in Australia a doctor or anyone has the "right of refusal". So yes it would happen as I said the scenario I gave has happened, with the dentist i worked for and me being the ones to refuse treatment. If that's what you meant.



Angela I wasn't meaning that you said the doctor was liable but just pointing out if a patient gives up on their own health because one doctor refused to give a referral then the only person responsible is themselves.

Angela - posted on 02/20/2011

Stephanie, are you talking about the scenarios that I just presented?