Should Pit bulls be a Restricted Breed?

Cathy - posted on 04/28/2011

****Mod Notice*****

Thank-you all for your participation in this thread. Everything had been said and it's getting like a dog chasing his own tail... going round and round in circles!

I'm going to lock it now.

Cathy S.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

How is that???? How exactly am I ONLY seeing the exceptions when people bring IN out of animal hospital dog attacks??? Yes, I have seen brutality that would shock you. It happens. It happens. It happens. Once again, simply because you deny it exists, it will not erase the facts that.....It happens.

Jenny - posted on 04/28/2011

I hosted a Bully Pride Parade when BSL was rearing it's ugly head in my area a few years ago after an onleash pit mix killed a small off leash dog that ran up in it's face. We had about 75 APBT's, AST's and mixes. We did not have one single incident between the dogs and believe me, the media were waiting to get one on tape.



Marina, you are not seeing the norm, you are seeing the exceptions.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

I suppose your thousands that you have dealt with, trump the thousands I have????

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

I never said it was the norm Jenny. Don't you dare start putting words into my mouth.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

I never said it was the norm Jenny. Don't you dare start putting words into my mouth.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

Ugh...I keep trying to walk away from this, and I keep getting dragged back in. All I am doing is repeating myself at this point. Yes Mary, I am certainly privy to things that normal pet owners do not get to see.....that is where my perspective bares alot of its weight. Some pets don't care where they are, and some actually will seize walking through the door out of fright. Yes, it is a dangerous job....But, you are also failing to see that we would see dog fight attacks (not talking about dog fighting rings) these dogs may never have stepped into the clinic (the ones that won....) but we would see the results on the owner of the pet that was attacked....and the pet itself. It doesn't matter what I say at this point. You all see me as a pit hating vet tech, when all I am saying is don't fool yourselves. They can make great family pets (yes I have said this MANY times over) but can get so overly protective that they strike out. Some are so fucking dog aggressive, they aren't allowed out of their yards.


At this point, I am not saying anything new. You all see me as you like.

And Mary, we ARE animals!

Jersey - posted on 04/28/2011

Damn it Jenny and Mary!!! I think you have narrowed it down! Sheesh!

Jenny - posted on 04/28/2011

Excatly, over the years I've interacted with thousands of APBT's and mixes and I have NEVER seen the behaviour Marina believes is a norm. Every single APBT owner or mix owner is also saying the same thing in this thread.

But what the hell do us with regular, hands on, day to day experience, in a variety of settings with the breed know?

Mary - posted on 04/28/2011

A -fucking-men, Jenny!

Marina, I think the point almost ALL of us are trying to make with you is that human aggression is not a breed standard nor a normal trait in pits. Perhaps the trouble here is that you are not distinguishing between human and animal aggression.

I do believe that you have probably witnessed more aberrant behaviors in dogs at veterinary clinic. Truthfully, I would expect that in your profession. As I said earlier, as a nurse, I have seen some pretty unreal behavior in laboring women. However, I do realize that I am not seeing their true nature; what I am seeing is a human in a strange environment, who feels out of control, and in pain. (disclaimer - many women remain lovely even during transition - I guess I should classify them as "non-dangerous", lol!) I think most on here would agree that basing my assessment of their personality on the brief glimpse I got while they were hospitalized would not be a valid one at all.

I think the same is true in your line of work. You are not seeing these animals in their normal environment. They are in a strange place, with a lot of funky smells, and a stranger is poking and prodding them. A LOT of animals don't like the vet's office (although some, like my idiots, think they are on a play date!).

Jenny - posted on 04/28/2011

That is why I support mandatory spay nueter with excemptions for registered breeders. The problem is not the dogs, it's the shit breeders and the shit owners period.



Certainly you understand there is a difference between dog and human aggression Marina. There is no debate that dog agression is inherant in the breed although my intact male still does fine with strange dogs even after being attacked by three different dogs, one Lab, one Turkish Akbash and one unidentifiable mutt.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

Jenny, breed standards lists are the "best product line" and it says right in there "Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique," and also the part about human aggression "Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable." it does not say it does not exist...it is "undesirable.....well duh.

Jenny - posted on 04/28/2011

Well in that case you should review the breed standards for APBT's because aggression is NOT a part of it.



From the UKC breed standard:

CHARACTERISTICS



The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

Jenny, I should say breed standards...not stereotypes.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

Jenny, you are absolutely right...many bite reports go unreported. Those often are when the owner is the one bit.

Kate, once again....master of deflection.

Kate CP - posted on 04/28/2011

"Just like cat scratch fever that landed you in the hospital is not a myth. Will every cat bite land you in the hospital? Or every cat scratch? Nope"

Actually, yea, it will. I have a compromised immune system. I am medically barred from working with cats. My doctor has told me I can't work with cats any more. After I got out of the hospital I had to quit my job at the veterinary clinic.

Also, I hate all cats equally. I don't single out a specific breed of cat to hate. :P

Jenny - posted on 04/28/2011

Is this true for ALL stereotypes?



We don't have a clue what the true bite stats are for dogs. Many go unreported, we don't have the population for each breed, we have no solid way of breed identification aside from papered dogs. The only things pitbulls have earned is my heart, and not to eat.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

I don't hate all pitt bulls because of what happened, but I am more gaurded, and I am very realistic about potential harm. I am a realist when it comes to ALL animals.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

Stereotypes on breeds exist becouse they have earned the stereotype over and over again. Dogs are bred to do certain thinks and act a certain way. It is a breed standard. It really does exist. Like I said, not animal will live up to its full potential breed standard, but it is not a myth. Just like cat scratch fever that landed you in the hospital is not a myth. Will every cat bite land you in the hospital? Or every cat scratch? Nope.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/28/2011

Kate "And finally...why do I hate cats? Because when I worked as a veterinary assistant I was attacked by cats several times. One time I nearly died (spent a week in the hospital with IV antibiotics). So I'm not a big cat fan. :P "



Sorry you had such a bad experience with one cat that landed you in the hospital. It is terrible when this happens...but, this really does help prove what I am trying to say.



You hate an ENTIRE SPECIES because of your individual experience. Whatever happend to "individual evaluations" and "judging each animal per tempermant"? This is what I am saying. Not all cats bite and scratch, but they have a potential to do so. Not all dogs bite and attack, but they have the potential to do so. Some breeds are bred with more aggression, so are some cats. Not all will live up to the breed standard, but those that do can be lethal.



Now, you talking about your experience with people, can cause others that like cats to be more gaurded. I mean, you don't just hate that individual cat that did this, you hate them ALL. This is why people that hear about certain breed attacks become biased....they hear true stories, and a stigma is created. You are no different.



I don't hate all dogs becouse of the husky that bit me and landed me in the hospital...I had nerve damage (or maybe tendon damage? I know nerves don't repair, but my hand/arm eventually did like a full year later) that left my left arm weak for an extended period of time. I don't even hate the husky breed for this....I certainly was more cautious for a long time...but I did not blame the whole breed for it.



Do you finally see what I am saying?

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

While I agree that it's just going round and round at this point, I do take objection to the idea that I'm attempting to look superior.

I also don't know how I side stepped any questions. But, after much thought, I will concede a point: yes, dogs do have certain traits bred into them for their "jobs". So, in that line of thinking, aggression could be a trait bred into a dog. However, being that dogs were domesticated to be tame and docile with humans, I think that a truly human-aggressive dog is rare and hard to find. I don't think that it's a trait that has been bred into dogs. A high prey-drive or animal aggression or protection is something that I consider to be different from human aggression.

And finally...why do I hate cats? Because when I worked as a veterinary assistant I was attacked by cats several times. One time I nearly died (spent a week in the hospital with IV antibiotics). So I'm not a big cat fan. :P

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

I just love how you side step questions. Any how, at this point we are arguing tit for tat. I can comtradict everything you say on this matter, and you can turn around and do the same to me. I am confident in my handling, knowledge, treatment, and overall education on animals to stop this pissing match with you. At this point, I am agreeing to disagree. I think you have an incredible way of side stepping questions, and giving the perfect answer among the masses in attempt to look superior. Sorry, but I just don't believe what you have to say. I have worked closely with many vets, and 2 animal behaviorist...you have part of it right, but you fail to see the entire picture. I have tried showing the whole picture, but you refuse to see. That is fine. We come from obviously different backgrounds, so I am at this point walking away becouse now I am just repeating myself, and this is leading to bickering.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

Oops, my mistake. Isn't my face red. Yeah....not so much, it was easy for me to find in the internet also, let's say a shi tzu instead...fair enough?

Kate, out of curiosity, why is it you hate cats?

Jane - posted on 04/27/2011

Actually, Standard Poodles were originally bred in France as hunting dogs, designed to run alongside horses. Trust the French to make sure the dog was elegant and decorative as well as functional.

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

"...Kate, if you can not see this as someone who works with the behavior of animals, it does indeed frighten me. There are different breeds of animals to do different jobs. Some require aggression..."



Wait, it frightens you that I judge each dog I work with on a case-by-case basis? That I don't go into a session with pre-conceived notions about a dog because of it's breed? How is that alarming?



I don't judge a dog based on it's breed. I judge a dog based on it's temperament. Which is why whenever some one asks me for my opinion on a good family dog I usually say:

There is no good family dog if your kids are under 5. The kids are too young to deal with a dog at that age. But, if your kids are OVER 5 a good family dog is a dog that's good with kids (has been temperament tested) and isn't too big so they won't knock them over. I try not to recommend breeds because every dog is different. Now, physiologically there are some dogs who can cause greater damage or do different things because of the way their bodies are built. A dachshund is better at getting into small tight spaces because of it's body shape. It makes a great tracking dog because it's so low to the ground AND it's got one hell of a sniffer. That doesn't mean it can't be a great therapy dog.



Nature vs. nurture...which one has a greater pull? Who knows? Is there such a thing as a serial killer gene or a aggressive dog gene? Can we and our canine companions over come our genetics? I'd like to think so.



BTW, poodles actually make great hunting dogs.

Charlie - posted on 04/27/2011

*sigh* if only there was a license for human breeding too .

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

I love what you said Jane!

Marina: I will respond soon but right now I'm feeding a baby. :)

Sonja - posted on 04/27/2011

Jane - I couldn't agree more!

Jen - posted on 04/27/2011

Jane, i think you said it best. That's exactly why I do *not* have a dog.

My brother has had rotties for ages. I would have trusted an infant around any of them. My one friend has a herd of little dogs and I'm afraid of them because they bite at will. No way I'd leave a child around them.

Jane - posted on 04/27/2011

I am truly tired of this argument. The answer is that ANYONE who chooses to own a dog needs to learn how to train a dog to be a good canine citizen. There are cases where a pug in one example and a Pomeranian in other killed a human baby because the owners a) didn't train the dog and b) left the dog and the baby alone together.

Dogs are animals! They don't speak English but humans can learn to speak "dog." It is essential that if you want to live with a dog that you make sure it understands what you want it to do or refrain from doing.

If someone wants to own a gun we make them get a gun license or a hunting license. If someone wants to drive a two-ton vehicle on the public roads we make them get a license. Yet with dogs, descendants of predatory wolves, the DOG gets the license, not the human.

Pit Bull, German Shepherd or Chihuahua, they all have teeth and they all defend their territory and love to chase anything that runs. If you are gonna have one, LEARN about it.

Sonja - posted on 04/27/2011

Mary, as long as you don't grow a tail or a mane - you should be okay!

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

I am actually getting really tired of repeating myself. This thread was originally specifically started about pitts. I have incorporated MANY different breeds since the first page of this thread. I am not opposed to pitt bulls. I am opposed to owners being unable to admit that the aggression that was so deeply bred into them can be very dangerous, causing harm physically, emotionally...and has caused death....and yes they have killed people. Yes, other breeds have also.

Shit gotta go....baby crying....I have made my point continuously....have a good read Sonja...gotta go get baby.

Mary - posted on 04/27/2011

Oh hell, let's all hope I'm lucky enough to wake up and post here tomorrow; not only is there a pit in my bed, but the other one is part Ridgeback. His predominant breed was bred to hunt lions....

Sonja - posted on 04/27/2011

At the risk of being "dramatic" - what exactly is it that you would like us to say? All of us have admitted that ALL DOGS have the potential to be aggressive... yes, even our beloved Pit Bulls. You keep mentioning that: "Certain breeds are bred to specifically have aggression. Pitt Bulls are one of them. They are not alone, but can, have, and will cause substantial damage when they bite. They are specifically bred to fight to the death. That is in their makeup." What you fail to understand or be willing to admit is that there is a difference between animal and human aggression. Pit Bulls were not bred to just be killing machines. Yes, they were bred for a JOB - to take down large game. They have been used and bred to fight other dogs in a pit.... that doesn't mean that they were bred to hurt people... in fact, the opposite is true.
Why do you think the Pit Bull was called the Nanny dog?

Our points of view are not so different. I believe with all my heart that people need to be good, responsible dog owners. I wouldn't put a Pit Bull in just anyones home. Just like I wouldn't put a chihuahua in just anyones home. Every family is different, every dog is different. There are people who have no business owning a Pit Bull. And there are people who have no business owning a Weimaraner, a Lab, a Beagle, a Poodle, etc.
As a Pit Bull owner on this thread, one who is a very responsible owner and one who knows the breed very well, I feel offended when you keep painting all Pit Bull owners as being oblivious to who our dogs are. Not all Pit Bulls are great, amazing dogs... BUT, the same can be said for ANY other breed. What is it that you are wanting us to "admit" to?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

One last (hopefully) final thought...

Kate, your statement "the myth that one specific breed of dog could be more dangerous than another just because of it's breed. "

This is NOT a myth. For instance, a german shorthaired pointer weight range is 50-70lbs or about....pitt bulls range 40-70 (or more) but I am using this size becouse earlier you said that the standard size was about that...so....you are essentially saying that the breed of a dog does not matter if or when it attacks out of aggression. I beg to differ. So lets say we have one of each of the same weight. The bite of a german shorthaird pointer, though could definately inflict a lot of harm, is not going to be the equivilent of a pitt bull bite...sorry......but yes, breeds do differ in strength, aggression, muscle, speed, agility, training, and bite capacity. Can you really argue this?

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

I am not talking about one sweeping generalization about large breed dogs either. I am talking about breeding for specific jobs, that in turn create certain character traits in certian breeds. This is not myth....other wise a poodle would make a great hunting dog.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

Kate, it puts fear in me that you deny that these standards exist for a real reason.

Sonja, don't be so dramatic. I have said it before, and I will say it for the millionth time. Certain breeds are bred to specifically have aggression. Pitt Bulls are one of them. They are not alone, but can, have, and will cause substantial damage when they bite. They are specifically bred to fight to the death. That is in their makeup. Just like jack russels and schipperkies have been bred to instinctually go for rodents and small animals, just like pointers point even when never trained to. This is the point I am making. You are all being so blind that you cannot even see that each breed is bred for certain things. It seems like you are all afraid to admit this, becouse perhaps you fear the truth of the matter... Some very much more aggressive than others...

Some animals no matter the breed will be aggressive, some breeds that are bred specifically to be aggressive won't be....but it is in them.

Kate, if you can not see this as someone who works with the behavior of animals, it does indeed frighten me. There are different breeds of animals to do different jobs. Some require aggression.

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

I guess, Marina, I don't like the idea that some one in our profession would perpetuate (what I consider) the myth that one specific breed of dog could be more dangerous than another just because of it's breed. Because of it's size or the specific dog's temperament, yes, but not just one sweeping generalization based on a breed standard that isn't even really a standard.

Sonja - posted on 04/27/2011

Marina, it seems to me that you will not be happy until someone says this: "I own a Pit Bull and am aware that by doing so I have a potential monster living with me. My dog is capable and instinctually driven to be a baby killer." Guess what? Evidence doesn't prove that... our experience doesn't prove that.
Have there been Pit Bull attacks that led to serious injury and death? Yes. Are the statistics skewed? Yes. Are Pit Bulls inherently vicious? No. Is it in their makeup to be animal aggressive? Yes, as a breed it is a possibility. Are Pit Bulls, in general, any more aggressive than other dog breeds? No - temperament tests have shown that they are better than many other dog breeds.

I am a Pit Bull owner and I acknowledge that my dogs have the potential to harm if they chose to. As do my Golden/Beagle Mix, my Weimaraner and the Pekingnese that live in my house. My Pit Bulls just so happen to have better bite inhibition that any of the other 3 dogs in my home.

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

Oh no, I judge an animal based on it's character. But that's really all I judge them on.

Except cats. I hate cats.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

I am NOT just talking about aggression.,....I have been talking about breed specifications as a whole, and how true they are....you cannot admit that...even though you already round aboutly have.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

Kate, it is very obvious to me that you are going to say whatever you can to make sure you don't sound like you are going to "judge" an animal on its breed, trait, and character. Although you have done just that. Chows are a breed you do not trust becouse you cannot read them, and they are very well know for attacking without warning. You have said this before...and yes their size is intimidating. Any large dog coming after you is. You have also said you will recommend certain dogs for certain jobs. It is the same thing. What they are bred for is in them so inherently, by instinct they do there jobs...some with not training.

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

No, you're talking about labeling a breed as aggressive. I'm not. I'm saying that all dogs have the potential to be aggressive and the potential to do serious damage depending on their size.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

You are still missing the point Mary. I am not saying they CAN"T be great family pets. And, yes, sometimes they are the perfect pet, and sometimes they are not....

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

"A shitty little papillion verses a shitty acting chow....which one would frighten you more? The chow hands down for me."

Of course the chow would scare me more-they're bigger. A bigger dog can do more damage than a little dog. But I don't automatically go into a situation assuming a certain breed of dog is going to be harder for me to deal with than another because of it's breed.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

Oh, and Kate, you being able to recommend certain dogs for certain jobs IS the same thing I am talking about.

Mary - posted on 04/27/2011

Ahh, but Marina, that's not to say I wouldn't recommend a pit for a lot of my friends; they ARE the perfect family dog for lots of us!

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

Mmmm...yeah, still finding that hard to believe.

Kate CP - posted on 04/27/2011

No, I said chows scare me because I can't read them. The way the breed has been physiologically designed makes it hard for me to read it's body language. That doesn't mean I think all chows are evil or have the potential to be evil. It means I think all chows are hard for me to read their body language.

If some one asked me for a breed recommendation for certain jobs then yes I could give them a list. But I always tell people that every dog is different. Just because German Shepherds typically make great guard dogs doesn't mean the one you'll get won't be a pansy.

I look at each dog as an individual.

~♥Little Miss - posted on 04/27/2011

Oh, ok, it sounded like you were saying everyone in the thread wanted this. Sorry for being snippy.