spanking study/debate

Momma - posted on 11/24/2012

I can be a very strict parent, when called for. Yes, my kids hair will curl when they have brought that part of their mother out. So, they do not do it often, typically only occurs now if it is a "new" learning curve for them and they are "testing" the limits. Again, very seldom. I do have patience and will allow for them to learn but when push comes to shove, I will win every single time. ;)



However, I have never ever laid a finger on my children and never ever would. I have no desire in making my kids afraid of me, while learning absolutely nothing. I am here to guide, teach, support, love and discipline NOT physically hurt them. Spanking is a cop out. It is a very lazy way to parent. I do not agree with that approach and never ever will. Every child I have ever seen (including myself) act out a heck of a lot worse when being handed corporal punishment, over firm discipline. I have heard many mother attest to this, as well. "I spank my kids and it does nothing but make them angrier". Yep, disrespect tends to do that.



I also am a firm believer that spanking messes kids up. Yes, I know, many say "well I was spanked and I am fine" but one has to ask themselves - am I? Am I really fine? Do I have issues that I have never matched to my childhood - to spanking? Many psychologists will say it will mess up a child and I know from first hand how it affects the little beings. If others want to take the chance, go for it but this Momma believes in respect and understanding with firm consequence not the firmness of my hand.



Hands are met for loving, hugging and comforting. They should not be associated with anger.



~Meme

Willow Jean - posted on 11/23/2012

As a 13 year old kid myself I think spanking is not an option up until I was 9 I was spanked and now I live with my grandparents hate my parents and I know that hitting the hand when they are 5 is ok but full out beating your kids butt until it turns red is not ok cause when I was little my dad had lost all feeling in his hands so when I was spanked I couldn't sitt down for 30 mins so from a kids point of view I think it should be outlawed

Morgan - posted on 10/30/2012

I was spanked until I was 17 and all 3 of my kids are spanked; it works at our house.

Kelly - posted on 02/25/2012

I've been away a while, so I'm going to jump back a few pages to the "any discipline can be taken too far and become abuse" sentiment.



So what sets spanking apart from these other forms of discipline if only done in moderation?



First, those other forms of discipline are ONLY harmful if taken to excess, whereas spanking has been consistently proven to be harmful whether it is taken to excess or not.

For example: taking a toy away every now and then might make a child sad, but it will not inflict long term harm.

Spanking a child every now and then will also make the child sad, but will also inflict long term harm.



Second, spanking is not technically a form of discipline, it is a punishment. Discipline teaches a child something about their behavior. Now, if you talk to your child before or after their spanking about their behavior, that speech is the discipline, but they do not learn anything from the actual spanking other than "mom's hand hurts me." The speech is not a part of the spanking, it is a separate form of discipline often done in conjunction with a spanking.

Jodi - posted on 02/25/2012

Actually, Christina, this group isn't a support group, it is a debate group. And this is a debate.

Christina - posted on 02/25/2012

I really do appreciate all the opinions here but have been very disappointed in the amount of attacking one another for their parenting style, this group is for support and it is possible to disagree but support one another in a kind way I am done and locking this thread because it has greatly disappointed me in the lack of kindness an respect to one another here good luck to all of you

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Laura are you telling me not to back out of it? If so, sorry but no backing out. I said what I said and I meant it. Spanking is abuse, I did not say any one was an abuser because they spank. They can be though. So, I had it right the first time and no I did not back out of what I said. I just said it again... ;)



In my world spanking is a form of abuse, I didn't say anyone else has to agree. I also didn't call anyone anything ever.



Edited to add: I am also not the one that was talking abuse to begin with, I just ran with it once it was referred to numerous times. Hard not to...

Jenni - posted on 02/25/2012

I do understand this is a sensitive topic and it's difficult to not take that sort of opinion personal. I personally, try to avoid the word because it's destructive in these debates.

Jenni - posted on 02/25/2012

Sally, no one on this thread has called another parent an abuser. They said they consider spanking abuse. Which is generally why they have chosen not to spank. They see the act of spanking as abusive. That is not the same as calling a parent abusive.



I could say, I think riding a bike is dangerous! And you may ride bikes and not feel the same. It is not the same thing as if I said; you are dangerous for riding a bike. It is an opinion on the topic being discussed.

Isobel - posted on 02/25/2012

IF spanking is abuse then ipso facto the spanker is the abuser. It's fine to believe it, but don't try to back out of it when somebody calls you on it.



I have to say that while I don't spank my kids, I don't think it's necessary, nor is it the most effective tool in the belt, I don't feel particularly abused either. I got two spankings in my life, hand to butt and I remember them clearly as well as why I got them.



I think everybody takes this whole topic to crazy extremes. There are parents out there who spank rarely as a form of discipline, and there are people out there who beat their kids. I think it's also important to remember that there are people out there who claim to be "positive parents" who are just giving their kid whatever they want instead of the amazing parenting syle that I know many of my friends use.

Julianne - posted on 02/25/2012

"That is total bull, "any discipline can cross the line into abuse." " -- oh ya...I quoted that right from one of your fellow anti-spankers posts.



oh really? you think i don't read all the posts before i reply??



One correction, I am not anti-spanking, I am pro human rights for all, especially children.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

I am also wondering what it is you pro-spankers want here. Do you want us to submit and say "OK, you guys are wonderful spanker's and do it in a professional manner"? What do you want? What do you want to gain from this debate? I know what I want to gain.



I want to know that when a new mother or a mother seeking advice comes across this thread can see that there are other ways other than spanking. They will notice that a large quantity of parent's do not agree with spanking. They will be able to reference the sites that have been cited and be able to make an educated decision.



I know we aren't going to get any of you to change your minds, each of you are unwilling to even take the opportunity to learn and read the studies that have been cited. However, if a new comer coming in actually has questions and is on the fence of what to do, I can pretty much guarentee they will see which side had evidence and which side was just blowing smoke out their butt holes!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

I do however want to here an answer to Mary's question(s). I too am very interested. Perhaps it will help us understand why and when you spank.



Please provide some insight, other than you spank as a last resort or pick spanking over all the other disciplinary techniques you each say you use.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Sally, if you are referring to what I posted to Kelly, then I assure you that I practice what I preach. I've seen Kelly dodge posts and blatantly ignore questions directed straight at her. THEN has the nerve to tell someone that they are only giving their opinion when it fact that is not true at all. It was just an uneducated statement. NO need for it

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Sally, I didn't say they were abusers I SAID spanking is a form of abuse in my opinion. Twist as you may to fit your thoughts. However, keep it within your own grasp because I did not say a spanker IS an abuser, they are inflicting abuse when they spank! Big difference. If they were an abuser then they would do it all the time, I know and realize no spanker here does it all the time or even as their first reaction (at least I am trying to believe that) but when they DO spank, yes that is abuse...

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Thanks MeMe :) You are such a great mom. I am sure your daughter will take after you and always stand up for what she believes in :)

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Sally,



what are you referring to?

Sally - posted on 02/25/2012

Jackie



Perhaps you should take your own advice.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Jackie that is one of the reasons they (psychologists) say that a parent must assess all elements, their own tempermant is one of them. That is very smart and caring of you to understand yourself enough to know you "could" take it too far. Some parents are not capable of recognizing their faults and are not able to make the determination you have for yourself. I am not saying anyone else here has a tempermant - I do, I know that and, is also one of the many reasons I do NOT spank. I would be one that "could" take it too far.



I respect that in people when they decide to work on their downdfalls, rather than avoid them. There is nothing more appealing than a person that is willing to look at themselves and notice who they are and how to fix any negatives. Bravo to you! ;)

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Who called another parent an abuser? I surely didn't



I am only responsible for what I type, not for what you interpret.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Mary, good luck getting an answer out of them.

Sally - posted on 02/25/2012

Calling other parents abusers is shameful.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Kelly, not only has MeMe given her opinion and shared her story but she has given us many statistics. She's good at finding research. BEFORE you make another uneducated statement, read back through the posts. If you can't read back through the posts, and no one is making you of course, then don't make statements about what someone has or hasn't said.

Mary - posted on 02/25/2012

I have a genuine question for those of you who do chose to spank. As I have read through these pages of posts, it seems as if all of the "spankers" say that this is only one of several disciplinary tools that they use. I've also seen many a parent say they use it as a "last resort".



So my question is this: what, specifically, is it, that makes you choose that particular method over another that you utilize? What differentiates an offense that requires spanking over a time-out, a harsh word, or loss of an object/privilege (or whatever other methods you employ?)



I really am not trying to imply anything here - I'm truly just trying to understand precisely what mitigates this choice.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

WOW!! *shaking head* It's din-din.....and quite frankly I've heard it all now. Statements like that are put out there and then you wonder....why is the pro-side so upset?? Geeeeeeee I wonder......I guess you don't know where to draw lines.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

"I love my children, they are my whole world. I care for them and nurture them and do everything to make their life perfect!



WHACK!!! WHACK!!!! "Don't touch that, sweetheart!"



yep.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Meme...that last post said it all. Really. That's it. Awesome :)



It's a quick fix, and it CAN go too far.



I will admit...I have a temper, I do. I can be nasty. I am on medication for it. Another reason why I won't spank.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Yes Kelly B. In my definition of crossing the line it is with spanking in general. To me that is crossing the line and it is abuse. Maybe not to you but that's your choice. If you have to hit anyone it is abuse... It most definitely is not sweet, caring, understanding, or loving.



Edite to add:

If someone hit you would you not consider it abuse? I surely would. I would have them charged after I defended myself of course. Why is it different for a child? They can't call you out on it that's why. Spanker's are BIG MEANIE'S!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

No it isn't. Spanking is the beginning and it can escalate quickly. Most people that have accidentally went too far, started out with spanking lightly. Most people are not abuser's Kelly B. Most people are just trying to correct bad behaviour with a quick, temporary fix. However, it is that spanking that can lead into abuse! No assumption, it is obvious that's how abuse can start, not always but often... If you don't spank you don't have to worry about it.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

"Spanking is just abusive regardless of how you look at it." -- what a loaded statement. Another false one but whatever floats your boat. Nice to see you're starting to be honest.....so now you equate all spankers to child abusers....NIIIIIICE.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

"Spanking however is the beginning of the line to breaking bones and killing the child it a fit of rage and can only take a few seconds to do." --THAT is quite an assumption. A false one at that.

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Sorry but it is not bull... What you think is discipline, your child may take it as a punishment. It is all about how you use your methods on whether or not it can become abusive... Spanking is just abusive regardless of how you look at it. It is called corporal punishment for a reason.



If you always put your kid in time-out for everything and always take their privileges away for any small thing, to that mother it is discipline but for the next it could be considered punishment and abuse....



Jullianne

I only use discipline in my home as well but it all depends on how you use that tool (figure of speech) to deploy your technique because it can become punishment and it can become abuse...

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Melody, yes you are correct it is abuse BUT it started out with the intention of only being a spank. You aren't fully reading and trying to understand what I am saying.



People have accidentally crossed the line from a spanking to abuse because of anger during the few second fit of rage.



If you don't spank you will never accidentally cross that line that you have defined in your own head.



I also rarely, if ever see a parent spank their child in public, I am not talking abusing them, I am talking spanking them. So, it is apparent that spanking is also not done very often in public. Why is this? It's obviously not because they feel they are abusing their child. So, since you do spank, tell me why hardly anyone does it in public?



Kelly B. The definition of crossing the line is still open for debate. Some parents may yell and they may not consider that abuse. No one here has said they don't know where the line is drawn for them, they have said not all people are able to determine where that line is for other's. So, one person may yell, or take privileges away in excess but they may also not believe it is abuse. Do you understand that yet? No one can say where someone else draws the line because it is different for EVERYONE.



In addition Kelly B. I have provided you with research, somewhere back on page 2 or 3. Go take another gander. I have also stated that I WAS spanked and it had very negative outcomes on me. So, I am living proof that parents cannot determine how spanking is affecting their child. I also stated before that if my mother had known how it was affecting me, she probably would not have done it. She too, thought she was just disciplining me, she was sadly mistaken... I also have many more articles and studies I can cite. Again, where is your proof? Oh in your kids, right, I forgot....



Spanking however is the beginning of the line to breaking bones and killing the child it a fit of rage and can only take a few seconds to do. Yelling at a child over and over and over again will have dyer outcomes but it is not a few second ordeal such as spanking.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

"That is total bull, "any discipline can cross the line into abuse." " -- oh ya...I quoted that right from one of your fellow anti-spankers posts.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

"And I am sorry, but I have to disagree with the comment about people not knowing the difference between discipline and abuse" -- OMG!!!!!! YES!! Someone else finally said it!! I've been saying this all along.

Julianne - posted on 02/25/2012

That is total bull, "any discipline can cross the line into abuse." Explain how teaching someone something is abuse.

Discipline is to teach, not to punish. Any punishment can cross the line into abuse, I agree there, and its not the parent who needs to think its abusive, its the child. Thats why i do not use punishment to discipline my children.

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

"Any discipline can cross the line into abuse." -- WELL DONE!!! *applauding you* CAN cross the line. So, how is it when a parent uses the OTHER methods they just miraculously know very clearly where that line is....but the pro side can't determine that if they spank?

Mother - posted on 02/25/2012

Oh no, we have been providing you with research since the beginning. -- MeMe....you've provided me with nothing except YOUR opinion. Actually a few pages back you even stated very proudly that you didn't need research because you have personal experience. Can't have it both ways.



I never said they were used in yours. I was simply refuting your statement of "old" ways don't need to be corrected. ;) -- You don't know what goes on in others homes any more then I do. We do however each have our own experiences. The "old" ways was actually Sally's comment and I said the old ways...in my family have been used by my entire family and did not include paddles and belts. You are assuming that because some people used certain methods that everyone did. did you family use paddles and belts and whips?? I know mine didn't. It appears Sally's didn't. It also appears Melody's didn't. So who exactly are you talking about??

Melody - posted on 02/25/2012

MeMe......a spanking that goes awry in seconds and leave broken bones and the like?? That isn't a spanking......it is abuse. Anything that leaves a mark on a child is NOT discipline. That isn't rocket science. And while this discussion is more focused on spanking, I still find it pertinent to bring up the damage that other methods can do as well, since the assumption is that we, as pro corporal discipline, are hurting our children.



You tout the other methods as the best ways and in no way harm a child. Which again, is not true. There is not one single discipline method that, if employed in a mean spirited and hurtful sadistic way, will not harm a child. BUT, you clearly assume that everyone knows where to draw the line with those methods! Yet not between a swat and a beating. I find that a bit laughable.

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

I didn't say parents don't know the difference. I said in numerous posts that the line may become foggy because of stress.



For example: a mother comes home from work after a long day and her and the father are arguing. A child is doing something he/she was told not to do and the mother gets fed up with him/her not listening and WHACK WHACK WHACK...you just abused your child.

Melody - posted on 02/25/2012

Nothing my father did even comes close to being called discipline. He beat me. If he got angry for any reason, we were his punching bags. That isn't discipline.



My mother made sure that even if the method was losing a prized item that I understood why I was losing it. Or if I was grounded, she made sure I understood why. I was never disciplined without us talking about it.



And I am sorry, but I have to disagree with the comment about people not knowing the difference between discipline and abuse. If that were true, men who beat their wives would do so in public. Or folks who enjoyed knocking around their kids wouldn't hide it either. My father always made sure there was no one around and he never hit my face! Because he knew it was wrong!!! The excuse that they didn't know they were doing wrong is a crock!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Any discipline can cross the line into abuse. However, we are talking about spanking in this thread. We could not go into all the disciplining methods and how each can be damaging. It is also true that even though any discipline can go awry, spanking can go wrong in seconds and it can kill, leave children with broken bones and the alike. Yelling is most definitely detrimental but it won't put them in a grave and it will not leave broken bones. It is still not right to go overboard with anything that is negative but spanking IS the only method that can cross the line to physical abuse and death....

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

I agree, Kate that was very educational. I could point out like 2 or 3 things that I had no idea about. Thank you :)

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

UGH! My stupid "H" key!

MeMe - Raises Her Hand (-_-) (Mommy Of A Toddler And Teen) - posted on 02/25/2012

Well said Kate. Excellent wording and explanation! That was very interesting and held very true statements. I concur whole heartedly...

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Melody, you don't have to answer this because I don't want you to ave to dig up old demons but the main reason why I am a non-spanker is because I don't think all parents know when that line is crossed and it is abuse.



Would you say that one of the biggest reasons your parents were different in their disciplinary methods was that your mother talked to you?



I guess my other problem is that if a mother actually stops and talks to a child about why what they did was wrong, and especially if it was because they hit someone, then why hit them? Isn't that counterproductive?



Like I've said before, I was hit once in my life by my dad. I remember everything about that moment, the embarrassment, the shame, not wanting to even kiss him goodnight. I believe that had he talked to me I would have understood and apologized. Instead he left me speechless and hurt.



This is just my opinion. May I add that the reason why he hit me (and it was twice on my bum) was because I told my mom I didn't believe in God. Imagine that. Not only was I not allowed to have my own beliefs but I was being punished for it.

Melody - posted on 02/25/2012

Well, now my girdle is in a bunch!! lol There are many children broken and defeated by parents who take no time for them, or parents who don't praise them, or parents who ridicule and belittle. Parents who yell all the time, parents who don't accept a childs best and make them feel like they are never enough or good enough. To imply that children are broken and defeated by A SWAT to the clothed bottom, or a smack on the hand is quite the assumption to make!



I was a broken and defeated child and it took me years to overcome that! YEARS! But I was that way from an abusive alcoholic father. The few swats from my Mama were in the context of correcting a behaviour that nothing else had corrected. She didn't slap me willy nilly and for something small like spilling a glass of milk. And I completely understood why she had used it and what was the cause of it. She didn't just knock me around and walk away. She always talked to me. Always let me know she loved me and always listened to me. But for her, I don't think I would ever have got past the crap my father did to me. It angers me when someone wants to suggest that the actions of my mother and the actions of my father even sort of equate to each other!!

**Jackie** - posted on 02/25/2012

Melody, I have to agree with that post. A parent can cross the line in other disciplinary acts.



I remember one time I was babysitting and the 5 year old was playing with barbies and her brother, who was 4, was watching tv but holding one of the barbies.



The father got home and freaked out at the sight of his boy playing with a girl toy. I mean he yelled at him. I went home that night and I felt awful, I wanted to hug that little boy. I was NOT too young to know that his reaction would cause damage but I also knew it wasn't my place.

Melody - posted on 02/25/2012

While I agree that there are many methods that work for children and some work for one and not another, nothing I have ever done to my children, including a swat to the behind, has ever left them broken and defeated.



But thank you for the very kind analogy.

Kate CP - posted on 02/25/2012

I'm a professional pet trainer and I specialize in behavior issues. I never condone physical reprimanding of an animal. It makes the whole situation worse. You should never hit a dog, grab them by the collar and drag them some where, push them, flick them or thump them, or use anything to swat a dog with. It doesn't work and it makes them more likely to lash out OR have behavior problems like submissive urination, guarding, or aggression.



Now, I *used* to be a very "old school" trainer. I believed in alpha or submission rolls, aggressive leash and collar corrections, and the idea that a dog was being defiant because they were being "dominant". But...I learned something fascinating. Dogs aren't defiant for the sake of being defiant...they just don't understand what you want or how to do it. They WANT to please you and make you happy. They can read your facial expressions and hear your tone of voice and can tell when you're pleased.



A dog doesn't choose not to sit when you tell him to because he's being defiant. He doesn't do it because something distracted him, or he doesn't know the command, or he didn't understand the verbal/physical cues you gave him, or he's afraid of you or something else, etc etc. If you ask a dog to sit and they don't comply your response should NEVER include hitting, collar corrections, or alpha rolls. Your response should be a simple "Wrong" and lure them into the sitting position and reward them with praise/food/physical affection.



Raising kids is a lot like training dogs. If you see things from their perspective you understand the way they learn and explore. I just can't think of ANY situation where a spanking would work better or be more effective than a different method. And because of that, I don't spank my kids. I *used* to spank my daughter because she would have a fit. And I mean a FIT: she would scream, holler, throw things at me, kick, bite, slap...and nothing worked. We tried time outs, ignoring her, taking away privileges, talking to her, helping her understand her feelings, and finally spanking her. You know what the spanking did? Made it worse. She would rage at us because we violated her person. So what, you may be asking, did we do to fix the problem? We fed her. That's right, she's hypoglycemic and when her blood sugar drops she turns into a demon. The moment we see a fit coming on now we give her a piece of cheese or a cracker or SOMETHING to get her blood sugar up and then we sit down and talk about the issue at hand. We haven't had a fit in months.



You (generalized "you") may think that spanking is an appropriate means of discipline for certain situations. I don't. You call it a "last resort". I call it a last ditch attempt to regain control. You say it works, that the proof is in the evidence of the child stopping the behavior. I see a child broken and defeated. Does that mean the kid will grow up damaged and need therapy? No, lots of us overcome the less pleasant aspects of life and learn to thrive despite it. But that doesn't mean that the experience was a positive one or that it helped in any way. A child who learns to fear a spanking doesn't learn right from wrong or how to make good choices: they learn what to do to not get hit.



I would rather my kids learn that writing on the wall is a bad choice because it doesn't make the house look nice, it's disrespectful to our home and things, and it makes more work for people; than to think writing on the wall is bad because I'll get spanked if I do it again. The fear of a spanking doesn't teach a kid WHY something is wrong or "bad"...it just teaches them that the experience will result in a swat. And THAT is why I don't agree with spanking and I don't think it's a "method" parents should use.